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On June 21 2012 03:20 Fake)Plants wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:07 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On June 21 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win. Do the cubs lose every single one of their regular season games on a regular basis? Nope but if they did they'd not cease to be a team. And we don't lose every single regular season game btw <3 thanks though! Agreed, I don't understand this concept, the 0-16 season for the Detroit Lions didn't unmake them as an organization. And since we're on sports, I guess since Charles Barkley never won an NBA title he should just be told to leave all of the shows he's a part of as well. All of this sort of reminds me of that insane church group that sits outside of soldier's funerals saying "god hates america" completely missing the irony that they have been granted the freedom to do this crazy shit by the very country they are protesting.
I don't like these sport team analogies at all. First, while the detroit lions didn't cease to exist after an 0-16 season, they CERTAINLY changed their roster, SIGNIFICANTLY.. just as the cubs and any other bad analogy people are coming up with.
I enjoy all of the players in question as personalities but it is quite suspect when consistently at major events professional players on major teams, some of which are 1) living in korea training 2) live in a dedicated team house and 3) receive salary to play are consistently knocked out of tournaments by random NA players who play between school/work etc. it's quite puzzling to me. It either shows some professionals on teams right now simply aren't good enough or this game is volatile as fuck. I'll let you guys argue that out as I don't have a strong stance one way or the other.
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On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter!
Actually, playing the race and having perspective does have a lot to do with being able to talk with accurate insight about that race. You do not have that insight. So no, you are not qualified to talk about Terran at all. The fact that a majority of the time you crack jokes and ignore Terran issues that are obvious to the entire community is evidence enough.
Also, screaming at people to "go away" and that they are children and idiots for wanting community pillars to actually know what they are talking about does not make sense to me. You seem to not understand how much weight the stuff you say on SOTG actually has. I remember when I got on and was politely asking to SOTG to get a Terran on the show, and then offering my own insight, you immediately started to be condescending and downright rude to people in chat/that watch your show, telling them to break a leg off their chair, etc. which you will of course scapegoat as humor.
If we're talking about maturity, then you need to understand your words have weight, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting a fair balanced discussion on a show that has people that's words hold some weight in the community (although it's obvious at this rate less and less people are taking SOTG seriously).
If you want the show to devolve to breads and circuses, that's absolutely great. It's entertaining as hell to a lot of people, but don't label it as State of the Game then if you had unqualified players like yourself on the show with such a skewed perspective.
On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though  Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time.
You called me out to a bo5/bo7 claiming you are a superior player to me incontrol. I disagreed - I am the superior player, and because I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, as well as my pride on the line.
Earlier in this thread, you claimed you are a competant enough player to discuss Terran, I don't think you are, and I'm sure many others do not. I am not only a better overall player than you at SC2, but I am indeed more qualified to talk about balance than you are.
You can try to twist this however you want but you're not going to wriggle your way out of it. I agreed to the bo5/bo7 and challenged you to put up your money where your mouth is. I know more than you as a Starcraft 2 player and have less bias than you (which is interesting, as people always stereotype me as being biased) because I can actually play PvT at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money on the line - yet you claim you have credentials to talk from a Terran perspective.
Please let us know the level of Terran perspective you're giving on SOTG, is it platinum league level? diamond league level? If so, then you should not ever talk about Terran balance/about Terran at all.
So yes, be a man and put your money where your mouth is. There are already results incontrol, on which of us is the better player, I placed further than you, it speaks for itself. If you had not been invited you most likely would not have even qualified for WCS.
My challenge still stands to you.
On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:this thread never disappoints  Judgements coming from folk who actually have no fucking clue (looking at you quitodian/starstruck) and then white knights or fanboys either getting their panties in a bunch over defending / attacking people. I am 10x the player that avilo is.. cherry picking 1 tourney where we both played different people was dumb so I issued a challenge publicly and he dodged. One show match wouldn't prove anything but it'd be nice to take some of his money and give him a reason to shut the fuck up for once. If I could do that with some of you I would do the same but for now you can sit in this thread after each show and act like vultures.
Results, results, results. If you're going to open that can of worms incontrol, everyone already knows that you are only ever invited to events, and have rode the gentlemen's club from your brood war days to get where you are. Unlike you, I had to earn my way into WCS, I was not spoon fed it. As were many other players that had to earn it and still continue to try to break into SC2 and earn it.
You're no where near the player I am, and it's interesting you say one show match won't prove anything after you're the one that initially challenged me to the show match. Lmao, I raised the stakes and put something much more important than some money on the line - my ego and your ego.
It seems that I'm willing to put 50$ of mine on the line as well as my ego. I know I am the better player, and I know you don't know jack shit about Terran that would ever give you the right to discuss it at a high level. For all the shit you have given me in the past in this scene for me being a biased player, as well as tarnishing my reputation many times with adding fuel to the fire about "avilo is a balance whiner," don't you find it interesting that I can play Protoss at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money and my ego on the line here? Man up, and let's see if you can do the same and put your fragile ego on the line.
You talked the talk, and now you're not willing to walk the walk. I don't care about the money. I will give you a reason to stop being so condescending towards me and other people in this community, i'll earn some money in the process, and give you reason to shut the fuck up.
Challenge still stands.
On June 20 2012 14:46 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 11:52 iNcontroL wrote:
but yes you placed higher than me, do you think you are better than me? Care to do a bo5/7 for 100$ or so? Btw, I never dodged your challenge. I also do believe I am a better player than you, as well as more qualified to talk about balance than you are. My WCS result over you already proves who is better, and I am willing to prove it again. I challenge you to a bo5, my conditions are that I play as Protoss and you play as Terran for the entire series. We each put up $50.00, and we both must stream the entire bo5. MLG 2012 map pool from most recent MLG.
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comparing an individual sport to a team sport doesn't make much sense anyway
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I'm a big fan of incontrol. JP, the show and hosts in general and everything they do, I thoroughly enjoyed staying up till 5 am to watch it, even if not so much the next morning.
thanks guys <3
It would however be awesome in qxc can some on some more, your talk about terran was pretty fair but it'd be nice to see a more analytical opinion
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On June 21 2012 03:06 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:41 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 02:11 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first. You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right? I do, in fact, have room to call them other than "really really good", but that's besides the point. Do you really think Incontrol or Nony need to win to eat? Do they need to be top players to keep their spots on their respective top teams? No, as history has shown, and if you don't understand this you are incredibly blue-eyed. Like I said, they get by on other merits, such as being big names, being personalities, being casters, being whatever. I'd call Incontrol a progamer as much as I would call JP a progamer, or Artosis a progamer. I mean, do you seriously think EG would keep a mid-high master player on their roster for so long if not for reasons outside of being a progamer? And I don't mean this in a bad way, I just mean for these particular players you can't draw the progamer card and tell me to sit down. Please do tell then, what your own qualifications are, to call them anything but really, really good. What you are doing is similar to when a consumer calls Windows "bad." It means they don't like the product, but they have absolutely no ability to accurately criticise it from the perspective of a programmer or engineer. Incontrol a mid-high masters player? Are you kidding me? Do you notice on his stream how he's in grandmasters? Show me where history shows that they don't have to be top players to keep their spots on a team. You can't just say "HISTORY SHOWS IT" and expect me to say "oh, well okay then, if history shows it." So yes, I can still draw the progamer card and tell you to sit down. You are not a progamer, compared to any of these people you know literally nothing about the game, and you have no room to criticise their play. Go away please.
No, for example I met Incontrol several times when he laddered on EU, I'm not some bronze kid calling them bad, I can compete with Incontrol/Nony, at the very least I'm not too far away from them in skill, and I'm a fulltime student and don't for one second call myself a progamer. Basically, their fame-to-skill ratio is incredibly skewed, but again, that's beside the point.
Just look at their results since forever, dude. They aren't progamers in the sense that they make their living off of playing the game, if they were they would have starved to death long ago. Instead they make their living off of being personalities/casters/managers/whatever. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and I don't look down on them for it, but this means you can't tell me they are some sort of SC2 gods with whom I could never ever compare myself with or whatever point you're trying to make.
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we need to get Day9 to cast avilo vs incontrol.
he who must not be named vs chill version 2.0
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On June 21 2012 03:29 avilo wrote:
It seems that I'm willing to put 50$ of mine on the line as well as my ego. I know I am the better player, and I know you don't know jack shit about Terran that would ever give you the right to discuss it at a high level. For all the shit you have given me in the past in this scene for me being a biased player, as well as tarnishing my reputation many times with adding fuel to the fire about "avilo is a balance whiner, don't you find it interesting that I can play Protoss at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money and my ego on the line here? Man up, and let's see if you can do the same and put your fragile ego on the line.
Your showmatch is either about knowledge of the others' races, or it's about who is better at Starcraft 2. You're trying to mix the two. You either accept his challenge (a bo5 to prove who is better at their own race, because you asserted you are a better player than he is) or you issue a separate challenge (a bo5 with the others' race, because you asserted you had more game knowledge than he did and he was thus unqualified to talk about your race) but you can't pass them off as being the same.
I'm not trying to accuse you or him of anything in particular, but I am pointing out that you're mixing two separate claims, and so you two are basically just going to go around one another in circles and nothing's going to get resolved.
On June 21 2012 03:34 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:06 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 02:41 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 02:11 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first. You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right? I do, in fact, have room to call them other than "really really good", but that's besides the point. Do you really think Incontrol or Nony need to win to eat? Do they need to be top players to keep their spots on their respective top teams? No, as history has shown, and if you don't understand this you are incredibly blue-eyed. Like I said, they get by on other merits, such as being big names, being personalities, being casters, being whatever. I'd call Incontrol a progamer as much as I would call JP a progamer, or Artosis a progamer. I mean, do you seriously think EG would keep a mid-high master player on their roster for so long if not for reasons outside of being a progamer? And I don't mean this in a bad way, I just mean for these particular players you can't draw the progamer card and tell me to sit down. Please do tell then, what your own qualifications are, to call them anything but really, really good. What you are doing is similar to when a consumer calls Windows "bad." It means they don't like the product, but they have absolutely no ability to accurately criticise it from the perspective of a programmer or engineer. Incontrol a mid-high masters player? Are you kidding me? Do you notice on his stream how he's in grandmasters? Show me where history shows that they don't have to be top players to keep their spots on a team. You can't just say "HISTORY SHOWS IT" and expect me to say "oh, well okay then, if history shows it." So yes, I can still draw the progamer card and tell you to sit down. You are not a progamer, compared to any of these people you know literally nothing about the game, and you have no room to criticise their play. Go away please. No, for example I met Incontrol several times when he laddered on EU, I'm not some bronze kid calling them bad, I can compete with Incontrol/Nony, at the very least I'm not too far away from them in skill, and I'm a fulltime student and don't for one second call myself a progamer. Basically, their fame-to-skill ratio is incredibly skewed, but again, that's beside the point. Just look at their results since forever, dude. They aren't progamers in the sense that they make their living off of playing the game, if they were they would have starved to death long ago. Instead they make their living off of being personalities/casters/managers/whatever. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and I don't look down on them for it, but this means you can't tell me they are some sort of SC2 gods with whom I could never ever compare myself with or whatever point you're trying to make.
You can compete with Inc/Nony on the ladder. I'd reserve my judgment on how good you are compared to them for a bo5/bo7, and if you're realistic about your own skill, you should too.
By your metric (number of tournament wins) most korean progamers on teams aren't progamers in the sense that they make their living off of playing the game either. Most of them don't have much or anything in the way of tournament results either. They are not progamers because they do or dont win tournaments. They are progamers because teams have decided that they are good enough to be hired to play the game, and their job is to play as well as they can.
And the fact that you say "I don't look down on them for it" right after you say "I can compete with them, and their fame to skill ratio is skewed" is actually hilarious to me.
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an offrace grudgematch is totally worthless. if avilo claims to be the better player, than he has to defeat incontrol playing protoss. everything else is a joke. end of story.
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On June 21 2012 03:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! Actually, playing the race and having perspective does have a lot to do with being able to talk with accurate insight about that race. You do not have that insight. So no, you are not qualified to talk about Terran at all. The fact that a majority of the time you crack jokes and ignore Terran issues that are obvious to the entire community is evidence enough. Also, screaming at people to "go away" and that they are children and idiots for wanting community pillars to actually know what they are talking about does not make sense to me. You seem to not understand how much weight the stuff you say on SOTG actually has. I remember when I got on and was politely asking to SOTG to get a Terran on the show, and then offering my own insight, you immediately started to be condescending and downright rude to people in chat/that watch your show, telling them to break a leg off their chair, etc. which you will of course scapegoat as humor. If we're talking about maturity, then you need to understand your words have weight, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting a fair balanced discussion on a show that has people that's words hold some weight in the community (although it's obvious at this rate less and less people are taking SOTG seriously). If you want the show to devolve to breads and circuses, that's absolutely great. It's entertaining as hell to a lot of people, but don't label it as State of the Game then if you had unqualified players like yourself on the show with such a skewed perspective. Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. You called me out to a bo5/bo7 claiming you are a superior player to me incontrol. I disagreed - I am the superior player, and because I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, as well as my pride on the line. Earlier in this thread, you claimed you are a competant enough player to discuss Terran, I don't think you are, and I'm sure many others do not. I am not only a better overall player than you at SC2, but I am indeed more qualified to talk about balance than you are. You can try to twist this however you want but you're not going to wriggle your way out of it. I agreed to the bo5/bo7 and challenged you to put up your money where your mouth is. I know more than you as a Starcraft 2 player and have less bias than you (which is interesting, as people always stereotype me as being biased) because I can actually play PvT at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money on the line - yet you claim you have credentials to talk from a Terran perspective. Please let us know the level of Terran perspective you're giving on SOTG, is it platinum league level? diamond league level? If so, then you should not ever talk about Terran balance/about Terran at all. So yes, be a man and put your money where your mouth is. There are already results incontrol, on which of us is the better player, I placed further than you, it speaks for itself. If you had not been invited you most likely would not have even qualified for WCS. My challenge still stands to you. Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:this thread never disappoints Judgements coming from folk who actually have no fucking clue (looking at you quitodian/starstruck) and then white knights or fanboys either getting their panties in a bunch over defending / attacking people. I am 10x the player that avilo is.. cherry picking 1 tourney where we both played different people was dumb so I issued a challenge publicly and he dodged. One show match wouldn't prove anything but it'd be nice to take some of his money and give him a reason to shut the fuck up for once. If I could do that with some of you I would do the same but for now you can sit in this thread after each show and act like vultures. Results, results, results. If you're going to open that can of worms incontrol, everyone already knows that you are only ever invited to events, and have rode the gentlemen's club from your brood war days to get where you are. Unlike you, I had to earn my way into WCS, I was not spoon fed it. As were many other players that had to earn it and still continue to try to break into SC2 and earn it. You're no where near the player I am, and it's interesting you say one show match won't prove anything after you're the one that initially challenged me to the show match. Lmao, I raised the stakes and put something much more important than some money on the line - my ego and your ego. It seems that I'm willing to put 50$ of mine on the line as well as my ego. I know I am the better player, and I know you don't know jack shit about Terran that would ever give you the right to discuss it at a high level. For all the shit you have given me in the past in this scene for me being a biased player, as well as tarnishing my reputation many times with adding fuel to the fire about "avilo is a balance whiner, don't you find it interesting that I can play Protoss at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money and my ego on the line here? Man up, and let's see if you can do the same and put your fragile ego on the line. You talked the talk, and now you're not willing to walk the walk. I don't care about the money. I will give you a reason to stop being so condescending towards me and other people in this community, earn some money in the process, and give you reason to shut the fuck up. Challenge still stands. Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:46 avilo wrote:On June 20 2012 11:52 iNcontroL wrote:
but yes you placed higher than me, do you think you are better than me? Care to do a bo5/7 for 100$ or so? Btw, I never dodged your challenge. I also do believe I am a better player than you, as well as more qualified to talk about balance than you are. My WCS result over you already proves who is better, and I am willing to prove it again. I challenge you to a bo5, my conditions are that I play as Protoss and you play as Terran for the entire series. We each put up $50.00, and we both must stream the entire bo5. MLG 2012 map pool from most recent MLG.
I agree with ya mate. I think the show isn't so much "State of the Game" but "State of the Pillars of the Community and MLG™."
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On June 21 2012 03:30 Quotidian wrote:
comparing an individual sport to a team sport doesn't make much sense anyway
Then compare it to tennis. There are plenty of tennis pros who don't win anything yet or don't win anything anymore or won't ever win anything, but they still at least partly make their living from playing tennis.
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United States8 Posts
Avilo, lettuce be reality for a moment here, incontrol will not play you PvT. Your protis is much stronger than his terran and everyone knows it. However I personally would be very excited to see a main race showmatch. I am inclined to think that you are the better player, but getting 1 round further in WCS is definitely not proof of that.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
avilo
Sucks that you bite the hand that feeds you. I talked you up on SOTG, promoted your stream and yet you turn around and act like this because you weren't allowed on SOTG despite me asking the other guys to allow you on.
I guess you will continue to babble about your off race showmatch as some kind of dodge to me asking you to play that race you claim you are better than me with.. playing off races then claiming you are better than me is such X17 shit I don't even know if you are being serious.
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based avilo
#nofluff
#realtalk
#mech
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Starcraft 2 history is being written in there... or not.
Seriously, avilo didn't prove anything either, what is he bragging about I wonder... Bet on something that matter, like the one that will have the longest run in the next MLG.
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On June 21 2012 03:49 iNcontroL wrote:avilo Sucks that you bite the hand that feeds you. I talked you up on SOTG, promoted your stream and yet you turn around and act like this because you weren't allowed on SOTG despite me asking the other guys to allow you on. I guess you will continue to babble about your off race showmatch as some kind of dodge to me asking you to play that race you claim you are better than me with.. playing off races then claiming you are better than me is such X17 shit I don't even know if you are being serious.
This post should end everything.
Incontrol went out of his way to help get avilo's name out.. and this is the respect. This is what's wrong with the SC2 scene. Non-stop bitching.
Honestly, these guys on SOTG shouldn't not even reply and feed the trolls. No one here except for incontrol/idra/nony... really knows all that much about SC2. These guys are earning a living playing SC2. You don't see incontrol knock the squeegee out of people's hand and tell them how to do their job.
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On June 21 2012 03:38 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:29 avilo wrote:
It seems that I'm willing to put 50$ of mine on the line as well as my ego. I know I am the better player, and I know you don't know jack shit about Terran that would ever give you the right to discuss it at a high level. For all the shit you have given me in the past in this scene for me being a biased player, as well as tarnishing my reputation many times with adding fuel to the fire about "avilo is a balance whiner, don't you find it interesting that I can play Protoss at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money and my ego on the line here? Man up, and let's see if you can do the same and put your fragile ego on the line.
Your showmatch is either about knowledge of the others' races, or it's about who is better at Starcraft 2. You're trying to mix the two. You either accept his challenge (a bo5 to prove who is better at their own race, because you asserted you are a better player than he is) or you issue a separate challenge (a bo5 with the others' race, because you asserted you had more game knowledge than he did and he was thus unqualified to talk about your race) but you can't pass them off as being the same. I'm not trying to accuse you or him of anything in particular, but I am pointing out that you're mixing two separate claims, and so you two are basically just going to go around one another in circles and nothing's going to get resolved. Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:34 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 03:06 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 02:41 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 02:11 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first. You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right? I do, in fact, have room to call them other than "really really good", but that's besides the point. Do you really think Incontrol or Nony need to win to eat? Do they need to be top players to keep their spots on their respective top teams? No, as history has shown, and if you don't understand this you are incredibly blue-eyed. Like I said, they get by on other merits, such as being big names, being personalities, being casters, being whatever. I'd call Incontrol a progamer as much as I would call JP a progamer, or Artosis a progamer. I mean, do you seriously think EG would keep a mid-high master player on their roster for so long if not for reasons outside of being a progamer? And I don't mean this in a bad way, I just mean for these particular players you can't draw the progamer card and tell me to sit down. Please do tell then, what your own qualifications are, to call them anything but really, really good. What you are doing is similar to when a consumer calls Windows "bad." It means they don't like the product, but they have absolutely no ability to accurately criticise it from the perspective of a programmer or engineer. Incontrol a mid-high masters player? Are you kidding me? Do you notice on his stream how he's in grandmasters? Show me where history shows that they don't have to be top players to keep their spots on a team. You can't just say "HISTORY SHOWS IT" and expect me to say "oh, well okay then, if history shows it." So yes, I can still draw the progamer card and tell you to sit down. You are not a progamer, compared to any of these people you know literally nothing about the game, and you have no room to criticise their play. Go away please. No, for example I met Incontrol several times when he laddered on EU, I'm not some bronze kid calling them bad, I can compete with Incontrol/Nony, at the very least I'm not too far away from them in skill, and I'm a fulltime student and don't for one second call myself a progamer. Basically, their fame-to-skill ratio is incredibly skewed, but again, that's beside the point. Just look at their results since forever, dude. They aren't progamers in the sense that they make their living off of playing the game, if they were they would have starved to death long ago. Instead they make their living off of being personalities/casters/managers/whatever. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and I don't look down on them for it, but this means you can't tell me they are some sort of SC2 gods with whom I could never ever compare myself with or whatever point you're trying to make. You can compete with Inc/Nony on the ladder. I'd reserve my judgment on how good you are compared to them for a bo5/bo7, and if you're realistic about your own skill, you should too. By your metric (number of tournament wins) most korean progamers on teams aren't progamers in the sense that they make their living off of playing the game either. Most of them don't have much or anything in the way of tournament results either. They are not progamers because they do or dont win tournaments. They are progamers because teams have decided that they are good enough to be hired to play the game, and their job is to play as well as they can. And the fact that you say "I don't look down on them for it" right after you say "I can compete with them, and their fame to skill ratio is skewed" is actually hilarious to me.
Why? I'm just stating facts. I mean who are the most prominent NA players? And where did they place in, for example, WCS? Exactly.
I don't look down on them for having huge success in areas outside of actually being good at the game, I mean it is an accomplishment to be such a big name despite not being a top player.
And you compare them to the Koreans who aren't doing well, either? Well, guess what? Those Koreans barely scrape by, have ZERO name recognition, and play their fucking hearts out practicing every day for a chance to succeed in tournaments. There is no state of the game for them, no dreamhack casting gig, nothing at all. They have only the game and if they don't eventually make a big name for themselves they will indeed stop. Frankly, I'm insulted on their behalf that you would even consider comparing them to people like Incontrol.
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On June 21 2012 03:39 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:29 avilo wrote:On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! Actually, playing the race and having perspective does have a lot to do with being able to talk with accurate insight about that race. You do not have that insight. So no, you are not qualified to talk about Terran at all. The fact that a majority of the time you crack jokes and ignore Terran issues that are obvious to the entire community is evidence enough. Also, screaming at people to "go away" and that they are children and idiots for wanting community pillars to actually know what they are talking about does not make sense to me. You seem to not understand how much weight the stuff you say on SOTG actually has. I remember when I got on and was politely asking to SOTG to get a Terran on the show, and then offering my own insight, you immediately started to be condescending and downright rude to people in chat/that watch your show, telling them to break a leg off their chair, etc. which you will of course scapegoat as humor. If we're talking about maturity, then you need to understand your words have weight, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting a fair balanced discussion on a show that has people that's words hold some weight in the community (although it's obvious at this rate less and less people are taking SOTG seriously). If you want the show to devolve to breads and circuses, that's absolutely great. It's entertaining as hell to a lot of people, but don't label it as State of the Game then if you had unqualified players like yourself on the show with such a skewed perspective. On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. You called me out to a bo5/bo7 claiming you are a superior player to me incontrol. I disagreed - I am the superior player, and because I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, as well as my pride on the line. Earlier in this thread, you claimed you are a competant enough player to discuss Terran, I don't think you are, and I'm sure many others do not. I am not only a better overall player than you at SC2, but I am indeed more qualified to talk about balance than you are. You can try to twist this however you want but you're not going to wriggle your way out of it. I agreed to the bo5/bo7 and challenged you to put up your money where your mouth is. I know more than you as a Starcraft 2 player and have less bias than you (which is interesting, as people always stereotype me as being biased) because I can actually play PvT at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money on the line - yet you claim you have credentials to talk from a Terran perspective. Please let us know the level of Terran perspective you're giving on SOTG, is it platinum league level? diamond league level? If so, then you should not ever talk about Terran balance/about Terran at all. So yes, be a man and put your money where your mouth is. There are already results incontrol, on which of us is the better player, I placed further than you, it speaks for itself. If you had not been invited you most likely would not have even qualified for WCS. My challenge still stands to you. On June 20 2012 23:26 iNcontroL wrote:this thread never disappoints Judgements coming from folk who actually have no fucking clue (looking at you quitodian/starstruck) and then white knights or fanboys either getting their panties in a bunch over defending / attacking people. I am 10x the player that avilo is.. cherry picking 1 tourney where we both played different people was dumb so I issued a challenge publicly and he dodged. One show match wouldn't prove anything but it'd be nice to take some of his money and give him a reason to shut the fuck up for once. If I could do that with some of you I would do the same but for now you can sit in this thread after each show and act like vultures. Results, results, results. If you're going to open that can of worms incontrol, everyone already knows that you are only ever invited to events, and have rode the gentlemen's club from your brood war days to get where you are. Unlike you, I had to earn my way into WCS, I was not spoon fed it. As were many other players that had to earn it and still continue to try to break into SC2 and earn it. You're no where near the player I am, and it's interesting you say one show match won't prove anything after you're the one that initially challenged me to the show match. Lmao, I raised the stakes and put something much more important than some money on the line - my ego and your ego. It seems that I'm willing to put 50$ of mine on the line as well as my ego. I know I am the better player, and I know you don't know jack shit about Terran that would ever give you the right to discuss it at a high level. For all the shit you have given me in the past in this scene for me being a biased player, as well as tarnishing my reputation many times with adding fuel to the fire about "avilo is a balance whiner, don't you find it interesting that I can play Protoss at a grandmaster level and am willing to put money and my ego on the line here? Man up, and let's see if you can do the same and put your fragile ego on the line. You talked the talk, and now you're not willing to walk the walk. I don't care about the money. I will give you a reason to stop being so condescending towards me and other people in this community, earn some money in the process, and give you reason to shut the fuck up. Challenge still stands. On June 20 2012 14:46 avilo wrote:On June 20 2012 11:52 iNcontroL wrote:
but yes you placed higher than me, do you think you are better than me? Care to do a bo5/7 for 100$ or so? Btw, I never dodged your challenge. I also do believe I am a better player than you, as well as more qualified to talk about balance than you are. My WCS result over you already proves who is better, and I am willing to prove it again. I challenge you to a bo5, my conditions are that I play as Protoss and you play as Terran for the entire series. We each put up $50.00, and we both must stream the entire bo5. MLG 2012 map pool from most recent MLG. I agree with ya mate. I think the show isn't so much "State of the Game" but "State of the Pillars of the Community and MLG™."
To be honest you can't really ever talk to avilo about balance. He has ALWAYS thought tvz was zerg favored like all the time (pre queen patch obv). He has always believed terran to bet he weakest race for like the last year or perhaps ever since beta ended no idea he always says how bad terran is. If they are going to have a terran representative they need to be good and know what they are talking about.
It's not to be offensive but Avilo is not one of those people, he has always said terran was weak (even though they have dominated tournaments almost every tournament except since the patch obviously and some other rare times iirc). I wish they had brought on demuslim/thorzain though that would have been cool.
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Avilo making a lot of sense here... SOTG is kinda fun to listen to as long as you take it for what it is a brainless entertainment, sort of like a cyber barbershop.
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On June 21 2012 03:55 tranmillitary wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:49 iNcontroL wrote:avilo Sucks that you bite the hand that feeds you. I talked you up on SOTG, promoted your stream and yet you turn around and act like this because you weren't allowed on SOTG despite me asking the other guys to allow you on. I guess you will continue to babble about your off race showmatch as some kind of dodge to me asking you to play that race you claim you are better than me with.. playing off races then claiming you are better than me is such X17 shit I don't even know if you are being serious. This post should end everything. Incontrol went out of his way to help get avilo's name out.. and this is the respect. This is what's wrong with the SC2 scene. Non-stop bitching. Honestly, these guys on SOTG shouldn't not even reply and feed the trolls. No one here except for incontrol/idra/nony... really knows all that much about SC2. These guys are earning a living playing SC2. You don't see incontrol knock the squeegee out of people's hand and tell them how to do their job.
Let's be honest, the terran bitching is annoying and Artosis resumed the question pretty well, but then Incontrol decided to take a pseudo-humorous condescending tone when he cant really afford to do that
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lol avilo is like mid master lvl on EU why the heck should he do on SOTG and why does he randomly get attention...
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EPT
