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On June 21 2012 01:56 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:43 Canucklehead wrote:
The best person to get on the show would be morrow, since he plays zvt and tvz. I agree, he would also have the least bias of the international Terrans who can articulate themselves properly. Don't wanna hate on Demuslim but his bias when it comes to TvP for example is off the charts. Then again you have the EU timezone to consider, and whether he'd want to get involved in such a volatile subject anyway.
Oh no, you couldn't get Demuslim because he's on EG, then it would be an EG biased cast. /sarcasm
Just remember that people will always find something to cry about.
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On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely.
I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first.
You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right?
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Can't believe noone is pissed off about what Azael was talking about with the GESL. Fucking ridiculous.
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On June 21 2012 02:13 AKomrade wrote:
Can't believe noone is pissed off about what Azael was talking about with the GESL. Fucking ridiculous.
Ya that whole GESL thing was horrible.
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On June 21 2012 02:13 AKomrade wrote:
Can't believe noone is pissed off about what Azael was talking about with the GESL. Fucking ridiculous.
This is what is most sad about this whole thing. We get good evidence that there are members of the community actively harming tournaments and organizers, and people want to instead balance whine and shit on show hosts. Great.
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On June 21 2012 02:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:13 AKomrade wrote:
Can't believe noone is pissed off about what Azael was talking about with the GESL. Fucking ridiculous. This is what is most sad about this whole thing. We get good evidence that there are members of the community actively harming tournaments and organizers, and people want to instead balance whine and shit on show hosts. Great.
I don't know what there's to say about the DDOSing shit. Is there anyone that disagrees with it being retarded and harmful? I don't see much discussion being had on the subject unless there's a way to prevent it.
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God this thread is so rage inducing to read. I wish some mod would come and clean it up.
My thoughts on having a terran representative: I think it'd be nice but IMO Tyler and to a lesser extent Geoff/Artosis are relatively objective in their arguments regardless of which side they choose. I prefer this over bringing say someone like Avilo who is the complete opposite of that. This guy was raging about Terran being weak when they were like the top 7 of 8 in a lot of tournaments.
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On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote:
Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
We pay balance whiners of every race too much heed. They come from a place of total irrationality, trying to use logic to combat them is an exercise in futility.
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On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely.
Idra is still one of the top NA players, as much as he's fallen off. Incontrol might not be the best, but he is manager of EG, plays pretty often, and to my knowledge has pretty solid knowledge of the metagame. The problem with Nony, IMO, is that he doesn't practice much at all, by the look of things, and he doesn't seem to have Incontrol's insight into the metagame, either. Just my 2 cents. No hate to any of them since they're all better than me, but I do understand why people might be upset about Nony categorically elevating himself above Day9/Artosis when both spend a tonne of time analyzing the game.
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On June 21 2012 01:36 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:28 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 21 2012 01:18 one-one-one wrote:On June 21 2012 01:10 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 21 2012 01:07 one-one-one wrote:On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up. lolol this is funny. well played. jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war? the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races). So how is TvZ played in BW? Marines tanks medics and science vessels a lot, no ? Zerg was all about taking many bases and overrunning the opponent with more shit than him. I don't see your point. I know idrA is trolling to some extent, but it is hilarious that he found terran to be the weakest race in Brood War and Zerg the weakest in SC2. He said this really early and if he truly believed that he would have switched races. Terran has won the most tournaments in BW too ... Terran was CC first into SK terran lategame and yes zerg wanted to get a hatch for every 5 drones that they had because that was also their production facility. Zerg was the aggressive race which overrun the opponent. In SC2 zerg is the defensive race that eventually overruns you and Terran is the offensive race that eventually picks you apart. I haven't heard him say that terran was the weakest race in BW (at least in any serious manner) and if he did I would call him on that lol. SC2 Zerg was the weakest race for a long time and is poorly designed (which he has said numerous times). Actually all 3 races have some measure of poor design. He did say that being completely serious on a Sotg episode and the others trolled him for it. I don't buy in to your BW - Sc2 comparisons. I find them overly simplified. CC first is a risky opener in both games, but ironically it has started to become very popular in Sc2  With mutas, roaches, mass ling infestor and banelings I think Zerg has many very aggressive options. Recently these insanely aggressive timing attacks have become popular because of builds like cc first and 3 OC.
it was very tongue in cheek. tvp was protoss favored but protosses struggled to be consistent forever due to how different pvz and pvt were, and how different map features favored protoss in only one matchup or the other so terran was able to get through that better than the other race's weak matchup.
tvz was normally terran favored except for a few periods after new zerg innovations where terran lagged behind. both statistically and in terms of gameplay.
and cc first isnt really risky in sc2, dedicated aggression builds from zerg are so one dimensional and counterable that its pretty decent odds to bet that theyre not going to do them.
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On June 21 2012 02:29 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. Idra is still one of the top NA players, as much as he's fallen off. Incontrol might not be the best, but he is manager of EG, plays pretty often, and to my knowledge has pretty solid knowledge of the metagame. The problem with Nony, IMO, is that he doesn't practice much at all, by the look of things, and he doesn't seem to have Incontrol's insight into the metagame, either. Just my 2 cents. No hate to any of them since they're all better than me, but I do understand why people might be upset about Nony categorically elevating himself above Day9/Artosis when both spend a tonne of time analyzing the game.
inc is team captain, not manager. big difference.
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On June 21 2012 02:11 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first. You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right?
I do, in fact, have room to call them other than "really really good", but that's besides the point.
Do you really think Incontrol or Nony need to win to eat? Do they need to be top players to keep their spots on their respective top teams? No, as history has shown, and if you don't understand this you are incredibly blue-eyed. Like I said, they get by on other merits, such as being big names, being personalities, being casters, being whatever. I'd call Incontrol a progamer as much as I would call JP a progamer, or Artosis a progamer.
I mean, do you seriously think EG would keep a mid-high master player on their roster for so long if not for reasons outside of being a progamer? And I don't mean this in a bad way, I just mean for these particular players you can't draw the progamer card and tell me to sit down.
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On June 21 2012 02:33 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:36 one-one-one wrote:On June 21 2012 01:28 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 21 2012 01:18 one-one-one wrote:On June 21 2012 01:10 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 21 2012 01:07 one-one-one wrote:On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up. lolol this is funny. well played. jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war? the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races). So how is TvZ played in BW? Marines tanks medics and science vessels a lot, no ? Zerg was all about taking many bases and overrunning the opponent with more shit than him. I don't see your point. I know idrA is trolling to some extent, but it is hilarious that he found terran to be the weakest race in Brood War and Zerg the weakest in SC2. He said this really early and if he truly believed that he would have switched races. Terran has won the most tournaments in BW too ... Terran was CC first into SK terran lategame and yes zerg wanted to get a hatch for every 5 drones that they had because that was also their production facility. Zerg was the aggressive race which overrun the opponent. In SC2 zerg is the defensive race that eventually overruns you and Terran is the offensive race that eventually picks you apart. I haven't heard him say that terran was the weakest race in BW (at least in any serious manner) and if he did I would call him on that lol. SC2 Zerg was the weakest race for a long time and is poorly designed (which he has said numerous times). Actually all 3 races have some measure of poor design. He did say that being completely serious on a Sotg episode and the others trolled him for it. I don't buy in to your BW - Sc2 comparisons. I find them overly simplified. CC first is a risky opener in both games, but ironically it has started to become very popular in Sc2 With mutas, roaches, mass ling infestor and banelings I think Zerg has many very aggressive options. Recently these insanely aggressive timing attacks have become popular because of builds like cc first and 3 OC. it was very tongue in cheek. tvp was protoss favored but protosses struggled to be consistent forever due to how different pvz and pvt were, and how different map features favored protoss in only one matchup or the other so terran was able to get through that better than the other race's weak matchup. tvz was normally terran favored except for a few periods after new zerg innovations where terran lagged behind. both statistically and in terms of gameplay. and cc first isnt really risky in sc2, dedicated aggression builds from zerg are so one dimensional and counterable that its pretty decent odds to bet that theyre not going to do them.
thx for answering.
If you say it was tongue in cheek I believe you.
That was a very nuanced description of BW terran.
Still, I can't but wonder how top level SC2 Zerg players would perform if they reverted stats back a bunch of patches given how the understanding of timings has increased together with better queen usage and general mechanics.
After all, Fruitdealer and NesTea won the first two GSL seasons before terrans were figuring out other builds than 2-rax marine scv allins.
Do you think CC first is a viable standard strategy worth practicing?
If it became the goto build for terrans the utility of 6-pooling would increase dramatically I think.
I see it as a build that high level terrans use to gain a slight advantage.
The difference between CC first and 1 rax expand is not big enough for master league n00bs like me I think.
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On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely.
The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win.
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On June 21 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win.
Do the cubs lose every single one of their regular season games on a regular basis?
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On June 21 2012 02:41 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:11 Vega62a wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. I'm glad you know so much about their finances and the inner workings of the hiring and contractual practices at Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Please, tell me more about them, but be sure to state your qualifications first. You do understand that you literally have no room to call any of those people anything but "really really good," right? I do, in fact, have room to call them other than "really really good", but that's besides the point. Do you really think Incontrol or Nony need to win to eat? Do they need to be top players to keep their spots on their respective top teams? No, as history has shown, and if you don't understand this you are incredibly blue-eyed. Like I said, they get by on other merits, such as being big names, being personalities, being casters, being whatever. I'd call Incontrol a progamer as much as I would call JP a progamer, or Artosis a progamer. I mean, do you seriously think EG would keep a mid-high master player on their roster for so long if not for reasons outside of being a progamer? And I don't mean this in a bad way, I just mean for these particular players you can't draw the progamer card and tell me to sit down.
Please do tell then, what your own qualifications are, to call them anything but really, really good. What you are doing is similar to when a consumer calls Windows "bad." It means they don't like the product, but they have absolutely no ability to accurately criticise it from the perspective of a programmer or engineer.
Incontrol a mid-high masters player? Are you kidding me? Do you notice on his stream how he's in grandmasters?
Show me where history shows that they don't have to be top players to keep their spots on a team. You can't just say "HISTORY SHOWS IT" and expect me to say "oh, well okay then, if history shows it."
So yes, I can still draw the progamer card and tell you to sit down. You are not a progamer, compared to any of these people you know literally nothing about the game, and you have no room to criticise their play. Go away please.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 21 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win. Do the cubs lose every single one of their regular season games on a regular basis?
Nope but if they did they'd not cease to be a team.
And we don't lose every single regular season game btw <3 thanks though!
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On June 21 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win. Do the cubs lose every single one of their regular season games on a regular basis?
No team wins every game and no team loses 100% of their games. The cubs have lost a lot of last 103 years. They have had as many as 12 subpar seasons in a row, if not more. That is 12 years of playing poorly and no one came out and said they were not a baseball team. It is not even a discussion worth having.
Incontrol, Nony, and Idra are able to qualify for a number of events and play in them. They do not need to win them to be considered a professional.
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On June 21 2012 03:07 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On June 21 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2012 01:57 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote:
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros. Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely. The Cubs have not one a major league in 103 years, but they are still a baseball team. Incontrol, Idra and Nony all enter tournaments and play SC2 professionally. The title of professional or pro-gamer is not dependant on how many tournaments they win. Do the cubs lose every single one of their regular season games on a regular basis? Nope but if they did they'd not cease to be a team. And we don't lose every single regular season game btw <3 thanks though!
Agreed, I don't understand this concept, the 0-16 season for the Detroit Lions didn't unmake them as an organization. And since we're on sports, I guess since Charles Barkley never won an NBA title he should just be told to leave all of the shows he's a part of as well.
All of this sort of reminds me of that insane church group that sits outside of soldier's funerals saying "god hates america" completely missing the irony that they have been granted the freedom to do this crazy shit by the very country they are protesting.
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Great episode guys! Entertaining stuff I had a fun gym session listening to it. Please ignore all these haters.
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