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On June 21 2012 00:40 hifriend wrote:
Maybe some of you people that go qq:ing in this thread every god damn week should start a show of you own. You could call it 'State of the State of the game'
I feel an inception joke coming.....
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On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter!
I do value your opinion, but only up until the point where you claim that T players can't speak to balance because of past win rates. And when the most successful Terrans in the world have spoken about having trouble with a matchup.
And yes, I would be a bit frustrated listening to an announcer if he was discussing a game with a skewed perspective from only one side. The rest of your post is just an personal attack.
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On June 21 2012 00:30 Positronic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:27 takingbackoj wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? Ya SoTG owes it to us to put a Terran on the show and none of these pro gamers could even begin to comment on the Terran race with any accuracy. We should get our money back. Oh wait, its free... Did you even read my post? You didn't even get to the second sentence LMAO.
I read your post, you say one thing just to mask another. Good job, still holds no water. Not only is Incontrol able to speak wtih a lot of knowledge on the Terran race but so was Idra and also Nony because they are actuall pro gamers. Prefacing your statement with one thing and then continuing on to say another doesnt make your post any less ridiculous.
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On June 21 2012 00:42 Positronic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! I do value your opinion, but only up until the point where you claim that T players can't speak to balance because of past win rates. And when the most successful Terrans in the world have spoken about having trouble with a matchup. And yes, I would be a bit frustrated listening to an announcer if he was discussing a game with a skewed perspective from only one side. The rest of your post is just an personal attack.
Well, the cool thing is that he's actually consistent. If you've watched sotg for a long time you should've noticed that incontrol is pretty much the last person to ever call imbalance even when it's protoss struggling hard for long periods of time. People are way too quick about calling imbalance in this community.
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On June 21 2012 00:43 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:30 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:27 takingbackoj wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? Ya SoTG owes it to us to put a Terran on the show and none of these pro gamers could even begin to comment on the Terran race with any accuracy. We should get our money back. Oh wait, its free... Did you even read my post? You didn't even get to the second sentence LMAO. I read your post, you say one thing just to mask another. Good job, still holds no water. Not only is Incontrol able to speak wtih a lot of knowledge on the Terran race but so was Idra and also Nony because they are actuall pro gamers. Prefacing your statement with one thing and then continuing on to say another doesnt make your post any less ridiculous.
what about the other pro players who contradict Incontrol, Artosis and Idra's opinion of things..? Like all the people mentioned by Azael. Obviously there's more going on here than "I'm qualified to talk and my opinion matters because I'm a pro."
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On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter!
If the best SotG can do if have Zergs and Protosses discussing Terran, okay, whatever. But when the discussion was as poor as it was today it makes me angry. Not angry at you guys, just angry at how good the show could be if a few simple changes were made.
For heaven's sake, you don't need to make wholesale changes. Have a 5 minute call with the guy whose name the stream chat was spamming, hang up, and let the pillars rebut his concerns. That's at least something.
If you want to make the show really entertaining, argue with him on the spot, call him a fucking retard and start shouting over each other. I guarantee all the viewers will piss themselves with excitement and/or laughing, and the show will go down as a great success. If you want to make avilo look like a fool, which I actually don't think you would (because I've watched avilo's stream many times and he makes sense), doing so live in front of 10k people would be more effective than arguing in this thread.
Finally, what's with this bullshit how anyone who criticizes the show is ungrateful for this FREE entertainment? Liking something and pointing out aspects it could improve on aren't mutually exclusive. This is the kind of attitude that pervades TL fan clubs too and it is shit.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:35 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:31 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:26 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though  Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. Because Avilo plays Protoss all the time, right? You'd both be off-racing, so what's the problem? And who cares who challenged first? You issued a challenge, Avilo changed the terms, you didn't accept these terms. If Avilo is dodging then you are dodging just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if he did accept the original terms, though. And there's no need to be patronizing. Shit you are right.. timing of challenges don't matter. Ok let me fix this! AVILO! I hear your challenge to change the terms to offraces and I RECHANGE the challenge to a new form of combat! We will do this via battlenet and you will play terran and I will play protoss! YOUR MOVE! Ok, now if he dodges I win right? Thanks for clarifying btw.. forgot to reissue the challenge so it's now up to him by rules of the internet to either change the challenge or accept. No, sir, it's up to you both to come to a agreement. My point is simply that you can't single-handedly set up the terms when you are both having an argument and then call your opponent a dodger when he tries to interject with his own terms or suggestions. So, yes, if you call him a dodger for dodging your challenge, he can just as much call you a dodger for dodging his.
You probably don't socialize a lot so I will try and explain it to you. When someone says Hey! I am stronger than you.. and the other guy says, lets have a arm wrestle, or bench press etc.. that is how they try and settle it. If Avilo elludes to being better than me and I say, lets play a series of games with our main races, the way we determine skill and he says NAH! Lets play with the races we don't practice to determine who is better at this game.. that doesn't make sense. It would be like responding to the strength challenge with a spelling bee.
Now plz stop.. I am supposed to be ignoring people like you ;(
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On June 21 2012 00:43 takingbackoj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:30 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:27 takingbackoj wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? Ya SoTG owes it to us to put a Terran on the show and none of these pro gamers could even begin to comment on the Terran race with any accuracy. We should get our money back. Oh wait, its free... Did you even read my post? You didn't even get to the second sentence LMAO. I read your post, you say one thing just to mask another. Good job, still holds no water. Not only is Incontrol able to speak wtih a lot of knowledge on the Terran race but so was Idra and also Nony because they are actuall pro gamers. Prefacing your statement with one thing and then continuing on to say another doesnt make your post any less ridiculous.
I said that I understand SotG has no implicit obligation to be fair to Terran players (or any race), that it would be nice to see an attempt at unbias when discussing balance because that is not what a lot of people heard. How is that masking anything? I don't think it is an unreasonable request to work towards something in the show that is not necessarily laid out in the blueprints per say.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:42 Positronic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! I do value your opinion, but only up until the point where you claim that T players can't speak to balance because of past win rates. And when the most successful Terrans in the world have spoken about having trouble with a matchup. And yes, I would be a bit frustrated listening to an announcer if he was discussing a game with a skewed perspective from only one side. The rest of your post is just an personal attack.
Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
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Cool thread, would read again.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think what makes me sad, more than the trolls calling out the hosts of the show, is that InControl and NonY actually stoop down to the troll's level with their arguments. This thread is becoming just a cesspool, and I think TL mods should close this thread and make a new one with the same OP.
To the trolls : I'm sure that the hosts welcome constructive criticism. But there are ways to present criticism, and acting like entitled little brats who whine and flame is not one of those ways.
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Artosis mentioned the spoilerfreeSC reddit page as a great site for vods (which it is) but I would also encourage him to check out sc2links.com as another new site for sc2 vods. It's actually linked on the main page of spoilerfreeSC reddit as well.
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On June 21 2012 00:47 CaptainCharisma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! If the best SotG can do if have Zergs and Protosses discussing Terran, okay, whatever. But when the discussion was as poor as it was today it makes me angry. Not angry at you guys, just angry at how good the show could be if a few simple changes were made. For heaven's sake, you don't need to make wholesale changes. Have a 5 minute call with the guy whose name the stream chat was spamming, hang up, and let the pillars rebut his concerns. That's at least something. If you want to make the show really entertaining, argue with him on the spot, call him a fucking retard and start shouting over each other. I guarantee all the viewers will piss themselves with excitement and/or laughing, and the show will go down as a great success. If you want to make avilo look like a fool, which I actually don't think you would (because I've watched avilo's stream many times and he makes sense), doing so live in front of 10k people would be more effective than arguing in this thread. Finally, what's with this bullshit how anyone who criticizes the show is ungrateful for this FREE entertainment? Liking something and pointing out aspects it could improve on aren't mutually exclusive. This is the kind of attitude that pervades TL fan clubs too and it is shit.
Incontrol DID try. He was the only one who tried. He brought up Avilo coming on and everyone said no. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out. I'm pretty sure the hosts are now aware of the situation. And just LOL at the people who think some hosts should be kicked off. This show is what it is because of the hosts.
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On June 21 2012 01:00 LambtrOn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:47 CaptainCharisma wrote:On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! If the best SotG can do if have Zergs and Protosses discussing Terran, okay, whatever. But when the discussion was as poor as it was today it makes me angry. Not angry at you guys, just angry at how good the show could be if a few simple changes were made. For heaven's sake, you don't need to make wholesale changes. Have a 5 minute call with the guy whose name the stream chat was spamming, hang up, and let the pillars rebut his concerns. That's at least something. If you want to make the show really entertaining, argue with him on the spot, call him a fucking retard and start shouting over each other. I guarantee all the viewers will piss themselves with excitement and/or laughing, and the show will go down as a great success. If you want to make avilo look like a fool, which I actually don't think you would (because I've watched avilo's stream many times and he makes sense), doing so live in front of 10k people would be more effective than arguing in this thread. Finally, what's with this bullshit how anyone who criticizes the show is ungrateful for this FREE entertainment? Liking something and pointing out aspects it could improve on aren't mutually exclusive. This is the kind of attitude that pervades TL fan clubs too and it is shit. Incontrol DID try. He was the only one who tried. He brought up Avilo coming on and everyone said no. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out. I'm pretty sure the hosts are now aware of the situation. And just LOL at the people who think some hosts should be kicked off. This show is what it is because of the hosts.
I assume that last part was directed at me, so I'll reiterate: I never said any of the hosts should be removed from the show. That's the kind of misunderstanding that happens when people don't actually read the posts they respond to
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hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up.
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On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up.
Oh man! e-sports just got bitch slapped
Just bought a gracken shirt
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On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up.
This why Idra needs to be on more SOTG's. Concise and to the point 
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On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up.
lolol
this is funny.
well played.
jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war?
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On June 21 2012 00:26 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. Because Avilo plays Protoss all the time, right? You'd both be off-racing, so what's the problem? And who cares who challenged first? You issued a challenge, Avilo changed the terms, you didn't accept these terms. If Avilo is dodging then you are dodging just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if he did accept the original terms, though. And there's no need to be patronizing.
It's pretty god damned obvious that Avilo was making grand claims of his superiority, assuming that Incontrol/Artosis/Nony wouldn't take him up on it. It's like a troll that was in Nony's chat a few days ago. He was ranting about how he could beat Nony at PvP because PvP is all about build orders, and his build order was better than Nony's. The guy ranted and ranted for an hour because, hey, Nony would never actually look at chat and say "Okay, log on, let's go."
So when Incontrol actually said "Okay, let's play. Showmatch," Avilo suddenly had to back up the shit he was spouting. So what'd he do? He marginalized the competition by making it an offrace showmatch. So if Avilo lost, he could say "Lol hey, I was offracing." But if he won, he could say "Look at that, I beat Incontrol while I was offracing. Look how awesome I am." Or, if Avilo was Zerg and Incontrol Terran, he could somehow then give the Terran tear-machine more fuel by lamenting, "Even you can't beat Zerg as Terran, let's cry IMBA together, k?"
It's like saying Person A saying "I have more money than you," then Person B saying "Okay, let's whip out our bank accounts," but then Person A said "Wait, let's prove it by converting our money into different currencies and then comparing those. You take Euros, I'll take Korean WON. Okay?"
It's stupid, it's petty, and it's just as sad as Avilo's pathetic attempts at being the self-righteous butthurt Terran that was only trying to get on SOTG for his fellow Terran brethren. He's fucking 24 years old, acts like a 14 year old who wasn't invited to the football game because he only saves 13% of the goals that are kicked at him, and somehow he has people behind him.
Is the TvZ butthurt really that bad?
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On June 21 2012 01:07 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote:
hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows.
thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg.
shut the fuck up. lolol this is funny. well played. jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war?
the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races).
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On June 21 2012 00:48 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:35 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 00:31 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:26 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. Because Avilo plays Protoss all the time, right? You'd both be off-racing, so what's the problem? And who cares who challenged first? You issued a challenge, Avilo changed the terms, you didn't accept these terms. If Avilo is dodging then you are dodging just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if he did accept the original terms, though. And there's no need to be patronizing. Shit you are right.. timing of challenges don't matter. Ok let me fix this! AVILO! I hear your challenge to change the terms to offraces and I RECHANGE the challenge to a new form of combat! We will do this via battlenet and you will play terran and I will play protoss! YOUR MOVE! Ok, now if he dodges I win right? Thanks for clarifying btw.. forgot to reissue the challenge so it's now up to him by rules of the internet to either change the challenge or accept. No, sir, it's up to you both to come to a agreement. My point is simply that you can't single-handedly set up the terms when you are both having an argument and then call your opponent a dodger when he tries to interject with his own terms or suggestions. So, yes, if you call him a dodger for dodging your challenge, he can just as much call you a dodger for dodging his. You probably don't socialize a lot so I will try and explain it to you. When someone says Hey! I am stronger than you.. and the other guy says, lets have a arm wrestle, or bench press etc.. that is how they try and settle it. If Avilo elludes to being better than me and I say, lets play a series of games with our main races, the way we determine skill and he says NAH! Lets play with the races we don't practice to determine who is better at this game.. that doesn't make sense. It would be like responding to the strength challenge with a spelling bee. Now plz stop.. I am supposed to be ignoring people like you ;(
Staying classy as ever I see. Your personal attacks aside, the fact remains that you dodged his challenge just as much as he dodged yours. Why wouldn't a reverse matchup say anything? I think it would say quite a bit of someone "10x" worse than you could beat you in a PvT. Maybe you're just too afraid to play the only race that can't get away with just attack-moving all game long.
Either way I wouldn't be surprised if he did accept the original challenge, but I don't think you'll ever accept his.
On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:42 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:29 iNcontroL wrote:On June 21 2012 00:23 Positronic wrote:On June 21 2012 00:06 Liquid`NonY wrote:On June 20 2012 23:59 one-one-one wrote:On June 20 2012 23:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show? He doesn't. Neither does he want you off the show. What he does want on the show is someone who plays terran to make the show better in many peoples opinion. The qualification is competency and he's said that Avilo is just as incompetent as us, and supplies our results as evidence for that assessment, and then says he doesn't want Avilo on the show. How does that not lead to not wanting us on the show either and anyone with worse results than us? I think that was a bit of a ridiculous post and doesn't hold any validity whatsoever. What does hold validity is that while SotG doesn't have any implicit obligation to represent Terran viewpoints fairly, a lot of people would really appreciate an ATTEMPT at unbias when Terran players have had a lot of trouble for the past month with a certain matchup. Especially when the best T players in the world have commented on it (along with DRG as well at this point), who play the race a hell of a lot more than anyone on the show, no offense. It shouldn't be an issue glossed over, like I mentioned in my previous post, as something that Terran players just need to "adapt" to instead of crying about it with Incontrol mentioning that Terran players shouldn't even be able to complain about balance because of past win rates. Man, it's pretty insulting to hear that when in this very thread Incontrol you admit your T play is shit. I won't bring up Avilo because that dimension is absurd, however what makes you a qualified person to speak on T balance at all at this stage? I'm sorry, playing ability with a race actually has very little to do with being able to discuss them. I watch more terran play, play more terran and interact with higher level terrans than 99.99999999% of the SC2 world.. I think when I speak on terran you can consider my opinion and view point pretty damn informed. If you think I need to ladder with terran to be able to discuss them ok, then you are not really worth talking with anyways. Do you watch football games and get mad at the announcers when they discuss the game? Do they need to have been a goalie to criticize their ability? Do they need to be as good or better? Nope... this is a concept children or idiots on the iternet propogate as a way of making themselves feel special. Sorry, you are not. We are though.. we do this for a living and are lucky enough to have access to people/things/places you never will. Value our opinion or for the fuck sakes GO AWAY because you shouldn't subject yourselves to our banter! I do value your opinion, but only up until the point where you claim that T players can't speak to balance because of past win rates. And when the most successful Terrans in the world have spoken about having trouble with a matchup. And yes, I would be a bit frustrated listening to an announcer if he was discussing a game with a skewed perspective from only one side. The rest of your post is just an personal attack. Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
Oh, another one of those "the game wasn't balanced in 2010, so it's only fair for it not to be balanced in 2012" people. Seriously, the game should be balanced at any given time. If Terran is struggling like hell right now it's completely irrelevant if they didn't struggle two years ago, and I hope you understand this.
This isn't some eye-for-an-eye business, it's about game balance and how it should always strive for the best possible balance. So why can't Terrans complain when TvZ right now is the most broken matchup in the history of SC2? Because they had an easy time on Steppes of War during the beta? Come on.
Edit:
On June 21 2012 01:09 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:26 Starshaped wrote:On June 21 2012 00:17 iNcontroL wrote:On June 20 2012 23:51 Starshaped wrote:On June 20 2012 23:41 iNcontroL wrote:
you should front him the money then? Interesting also that you dodged his reverse race challenge, and so many people were so quick to dismiss it. Here's a guy who says Protoss is imbalanced against Terran, and he's willing to stand by it by offracing against a player "10x his skill" with money on the line. Tell me, unless Terran really is weak, why would you avoid this challenge and avoid the free money? I think Avilo wanting to reverse the races was a pretty hilarious twist. It isn't a reverse challenge when someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and you reply by asking them to do something that they don't normally do (play a different race) and throw it back at them lol.. that is a dodge. You can't dodge someone who is dodging my friend. It is becoming very clear that you should be ignored though Explaining this kind of stuff to someone is a waste of time. Because Avilo plays Protoss all the time, right? You'd both be off-racing, so what's the problem? And who cares who challenged first? You issued a challenge, Avilo changed the terms, you didn't accept these terms. If Avilo is dodging then you are dodging just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if he did accept the original terms, though. And there's no need to be patronizing. It's pretty god damned obvious that Avilo was making grand claims of his superiority, assuming that Incontrol/Artosis/Nony wouldn't take him up on it. It's like a troll that was in Nony's chat a few days ago. He was ranting about how he could beat Nony at PvP because PvP is all about build orders, and his build order was better than Nony's. The guy ranted and ranted for an hour because, hey, Nony would never actually look at chat and say "Okay, log on, let's go." So when Incontrol actually said "Okay, let's play. Showmatch," Avilo suddenly had to back up the shit he was spouting. So what'd he do? He marginalized the competition by making it an offrace showmatch. So if Avilo lost, he could say "Lol hey, I was offracing." But if he won, he could say "Look at that, I beat Incontrol while I was offracing. Look how awesome I am." Or, if Avilo was Zerg and Incontrol Terran, he could somehow then give the Terran tear-machine more fuel by lamenting, "Even you can't beat Zerg as Terran, let's cry IMBA together, k?" It's like saying Person A saying "I have more money than you," then Person B saying "Okay, let's whip out our bank accounts," but then Person A said "Wait, let's prove it by converting our money into different currencies and then comparing those. You take Euros, I'll take Korean WON. Okay?" It's stupid, it's petty, and it's just as sad as Avilo's pathetic attempts at being the self-righteous butthurt Terran that was only trying to get on SOTG for his fellow Terran brethren. He's fucking 24 years old, acts like a 14 year old who wasn't invited to the football game because he only saves 13% of the goals that are kicked at him, and somehow he has people behind him. Is the TvZ butthurt really that bad?
Um, you realize it works both ways, right? They would BOTH be offracing, so there is no damn excuse. What if Avilo loses in PvT to Incontrol? That all of a sudden is meaningless, but if he wins he can talk mad shit? No, like I said, it works both ways...
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