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Watching right now MKP vs Parting in GSL and remembering their game in MLG... Looks in MLG played rather bad copies of them. So no. Not all games at MLG were good.
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On April 25 2012 19:36 Chriscras wrote:Wolf for guest on SOTG plzzzzzzzzzzzz! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tUjkj.jpg)
LOOOL :D This is great !
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On April 25 2012 09:10 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:01 Leth0 wrote:
Guess I'm not a 'fan of sc2' since I enjoy watching an enthusiastic crowd, I enjoy watching 'white boys' do well. I'm not petty enough to waste time worrying 'mlg was better than DH , or DH was better than MLG' because I enjoyed both from what I watched of each tournament.
I don't understand where someone (especially someone whose job depends on us watching you 'white boys') gets off talking down to us as if our opinions on what we enjoy somehow make us less intelligent or 'wrong'. Insulting. You've provided a very poor description of what I said and what my opinions are because you are fucking stupid. There. That's insulting. I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler. + Show Spoiler +The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me  What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. Tyler I don't disagree with anything you've said necessarily, but there is something to be said for the way you express yourself. Whether you meant to or not, your first two quotes are ripe for the interpretation that there are different types of fans, and you are a more "real" fan. Here are the quotes: Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. "I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2." At this point, I understand exactly what you mean. You mean that SC2 is the program and the corresponding actions of two players playing a multiplayer game. From a viewer's perspective this also often includes an observer. Everything else, including banners, and crowds, and commentators, etc. are superfluous to the actual game because they do not change the outcome of the game nor do they have a direct effect on what happens in the game (although as we all know a crowd can have an indirect effect). That's fine. But that isn't what you said. As someone who has taken philosophy, and as a frequent forum poster, you should know that it is necessary to define your terms especially among people that do not have the same terms as you. What you say in these quotes doesn't contradict what you say later, but I think had you clarified in your initial posts, you wouldn't have needed to add anything later. Separately, I would also argue that different people have different definitions of what SC2 is. As in the big quote I spoilered, I know you have already realized this, but I am surprised that you didn't think of it initially. I think it is almost a cliche at this point to talk about how for many Americans baseball isn't just a bunch of players on a diamond throwing and hitting a ball with a stick, but also being part of a crowd and eating hot dogs during the summer. I think you are familiar with the idea that there is ownership in being a fan and a viewer. Whether or not that ownership is legitimate, it often stems from the spectacle of the sport, not the actual game itself. Thus, it directly leads to having ownership over the spectacle as well. It becomes not just "Idra/Huk/Nestea/MVP is the best/the worst/a time traveler that created everything" but also "MLG/DH/Homestory is the best/the worst." People talk about their experiences being at a live event, of feeling the energy of the crowd and of having fond memories of "being there" when X player managed to something amazing, or heartbreakingly failed to do something amazing. When you said that you are in the minority of fans of SC2, you attacked a lot of people's notions of what it means to be a fan and the things they like about the community and the culture of the sport. Now, I understand that that isn't what you meant to do. But getting angry at them for misunderstanding you isn't helping, and frankly you should have defined your terms earlier. At this point we all understand each other (I hope), but the initial kerfuffle happened because of a lack of rigor on your part. So in conclusion, I lost 3.14 respect points for you. You owe me a pie (I like apple and peach).
It's almost like you think it is unreasonable to define Star craft II as the actual video game it's self and not crowds, color of peoples skin, or music. It's perfectly clear what he means and he should not have to explain or "define your terms" as you say something like this unless several people show zero capability of comprehending something so basic, and when they did he explained further.
It's perfectly reasonable to refer to Starcraft II as the game it's self and not color of skins, crowds, music etc and only the actual video game it's self and it's even more clear what he means by the context of what he posted. If anyone takes what he said and conjures it to their own taste to make their argument better or to justify their anger at the post is just wrong and unreasonable.
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The problem is.
If your talking about "the better SC2 TOURNAMENT" all these other things matter big time.
MLG most probably showed better games (didn't watch) but that does not make it "the better tournament".
A Tournament is more than just the quality of play... Else no one would watch the Football World Cup or Olympic games because instead of jut "the very best" you have a selection of athletes from all over the world at these events and people rally behind their nations "champions".
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Did Geoff ever wear the shirt for losing that bet?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IafaF.jpg)
Make it happen, Catz.
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On April 25 2012 23:37 Tamburlaine wrote:Did Geoff ever wear the shirt for losing that bet? Make it happen, Catz.
this is hardly a shirt...
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On April 25 2012 11:27 ellirc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 10:25 Aakoz wrote:^ Sorry Nony but I think it's time for you to gg  I agree. And YES I am swedish and biased. But people need to realise that shit got real.
You do understand that because your opinion is tainted by something that's not relevant to the topic it's not a very valuable opinion...
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8748 Posts
I am a bigger fan of SC2 than most. There are lots of people who are bigger fans of ESPORTS 'round these parts. If that makes them think that I think that I'm superior, maybe that's from their own self-hating, guilty judgment. I don't claim superiority, just different interests. I do claim that SC2 is the core of our shared interests. That's not a property that necessitates superiority. People seek out offensive behavior and find it where it doesn't exist.
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On April 25 2012 22:27 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:10 flowSthead wrote:On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:01 Leth0 wrote:
Guess I'm not a 'fan of sc2' since I enjoy watching an enthusiastic crowd, I enjoy watching 'white boys' do well. I'm not petty enough to waste time worrying 'mlg was better than DH , or DH was better than MLG' because I enjoyed both from what I watched of each tournament.
I don't understand where someone (especially someone whose job depends on us watching you 'white boys') gets off talking down to us as if our opinions on what we enjoy somehow make us less intelligent or 'wrong'. Insulting. You've provided a very poor description of what I said and what my opinions are because you are fucking stupid. There. That's insulting. I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler. + Show Spoiler +The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. Tyler I don't disagree with anything you've said necessarily, but there is something to be said for the way you express yourself. Whether you meant to or not, your first two quotes are ripe for the interpretation that there are different types of fans, and you are a more "real" fan. Here are the quotes: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. "I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2." At this point, I understand exactly what you mean. You mean that SC2 is the program and the corresponding actions of two players playing a multiplayer game. From a viewer's perspective this also often includes an observer. Everything else, including banners, and crowds, and commentators, etc. are superfluous to the actual game because they do not change the outcome of the game nor do they have a direct effect on what happens in the game (although as we all know a crowd can have an indirect effect). That's fine. But that isn't what you said. As someone who has taken philosophy, and as a frequent forum poster, you should know that it is necessary to define your terms especially among people that do not have the same terms as you. What you say in these quotes doesn't contradict what you say later, but I think had you clarified in your initial posts, you wouldn't have needed to add anything later. Separately, I would also argue that different people have different definitions of what SC2 is. As in the big quote I spoilered, I know you have already realized this, but I am surprised that you didn't think of it initially. I think it is almost a cliche at this point to talk about how for many Americans baseball isn't just a bunch of players on a diamond throwing and hitting a ball with a stick, but also being part of a crowd and eating hot dogs during the summer. I think you are familiar with the idea that there is ownership in being a fan and a viewer. Whether or not that ownership is legitimate, it often stems from the spectacle of the sport, not the actual game itself. Thus, it directly leads to having ownership over the spectacle as well. It becomes not just "Idra/Huk/Nestea/MVP is the best/the worst/a time traveler that created everything" but also "MLG/DH/Homestory is the best/the worst." People talk about their experiences being at a live event, of feeling the energy of the crowd and of having fond memories of "being there" when X player managed to something amazing, or heartbreakingly failed to do something amazing. When you said that you are in the minority of fans of SC2, you attacked a lot of people's notions of what it means to be a fan and the things they like about the community and the culture of the sport. Now, I understand that that isn't what you meant to do. But getting angry at them for misunderstanding you isn't helping, and frankly you should have defined your terms earlier. At this point we all understand each other (I hope), but the initial kerfuffle happened because of a lack of rigor on your part. So in conclusion, I lost 3.14 respect points for you. You owe me a pie (I like apple and peach). It's almost like you think it is unreasonable to define Star craft II as the actual video game it's self and not crowds, color of peoples skin, or music. It's perfectly clear what he means and he should not have to explain or "define your terms" as you say something like this unless several people show zero capability of comprehending something so basic, and when they did he explained further. It's perfectly reasonable to refer to Starcraft II as the game it's self and not color of skins, crowds, music etc and only the actual video game it's self and it's even more clear what he means by the context of what he posted. If anyone takes what he said and conjures it to their own taste to make their argument better or to justify their anger at the post is just wrong and unreasonable.
I never said any of the things you think I said. I wasn't talking about myself, I was speaking in generalities, and I perfectly well find it reasonable to define SC2 as the actual game itself. I also do not think it is basic, as I argued in my entire post. If you want to argue against what I said you can, but you are basically ignoring my examples and arguments, looking at my conclusions and saying "Nuh uh, that's not true." You think it is clear, I do not and a lot of other people do not think it was clear either. You are also essentially calling me and other people idiots because we did not understand what he initially said. That's pretty arrogant of you. I have nothing else to say except maybe you should try not to assume that everyone has the same understanding as you. We all come from different backgrounds and words mean different things to different people. And as has been pointed out, this discussion wasn't begun in the context of the video game, but in the context of tournaments, in which case it is perfectly reasonable to assume that some people will interpret SC2 as the spectacle.
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I'd just like to point out for fun that being a "fan" implies almost by definition that it is a somewhat irrational thing, so there are no better and worse reasons to be a bigger or smaller fan of something. I could declare myself the biggest fan of sc2 and esports because I like how eating icecream goes together with a starcraft game and it won't be a less valid reason to be irrationally fond of it.
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On April 26 2012 01:32 latan wrote:
I'd just like to point out for fun that being a "fan" implies almost by definition that it is a somewhat irrational thing, so there are no better and worse reasons to be a bigger or smaller fan of something. I could declare myself the biggest fan of sc2 and esports because I like how eating icecream goes together with a starcraft game and it won't be a less valid reason to be irrationally fond of it.
Well as Hume explained long ago, values themselves are not rational. So yes, you are right. That doesn't mean that they are all the same. There are preferences that are the result of unreflective animal psychology (fuzzy feelings related to being part of a group, etc) and there are preferences that are the result of reflection and introspection. This is the difference between someone who likes music that you can dance too and someone who understands music, who can follow the idea and structure behind a canon composed by Bach.
I can't say one is objectively better than another, and no doubt everyone has values that fall under both. I feel like most people do place the values resulting from the intellect on a higher pedestal, however.
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Indeed, but in that case you don't say you are a fan.
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On April 25 2012 22:27 HansK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:10 flowSthead wrote:On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:01 Leth0 wrote:
Guess I'm not a 'fan of sc2' since I enjoy watching an enthusiastic crowd, I enjoy watching 'white boys' do well. I'm not petty enough to waste time worrying 'mlg was better than DH , or DH was better than MLG' because I enjoyed both from what I watched of each tournament.
I don't understand where someone (especially someone whose job depends on us watching you 'white boys') gets off talking down to us as if our opinions on what we enjoy somehow make us less intelligent or 'wrong'. Insulting. You've provided a very poor description of what I said and what my opinions are because you are fucking stupid. There. That's insulting. I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler. + Show Spoiler +The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. Tyler I don't disagree with anything you've said necessarily, but there is something to be said for the way you express yourself. Whether you meant to or not, your first two quotes are ripe for the interpretation that there are different types of fans, and you are a more "real" fan. Here are the quotes: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. "I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2." At this point, I understand exactly what you mean. You mean that SC2 is the program and the corresponding actions of two players playing a multiplayer game. From a viewer's perspective this also often includes an observer. Everything else, including banners, and crowds, and commentators, etc. are superfluous to the actual game because they do not change the outcome of the game nor do they have a direct effect on what happens in the game (although as we all know a crowd can have an indirect effect). That's fine. But that isn't what you said. As someone who has taken philosophy, and as a frequent forum poster, you should know that it is necessary to define your terms especially among people that do not have the same terms as you. What you say in these quotes doesn't contradict what you say later, but I think had you clarified in your initial posts, you wouldn't have needed to add anything later. Separately, I would also argue that different people have different definitions of what SC2 is. As in the big quote I spoilered, I know you have already realized this, but I am surprised that you didn't think of it initially. I think it is almost a cliche at this point to talk about how for many Americans baseball isn't just a bunch of players on a diamond throwing and hitting a ball with a stick, but also being part of a crowd and eating hot dogs during the summer. I think you are familiar with the idea that there is ownership in being a fan and a viewer. Whether or not that ownership is legitimate, it often stems from the spectacle of the sport, not the actual game itself. Thus, it directly leads to having ownership over the spectacle as well. It becomes not just "Idra/Huk/Nestea/MVP is the best/the worst/a time traveler that created everything" but also "MLG/DH/Homestory is the best/the worst." People talk about their experiences being at a live event, of feeling the energy of the crowd and of having fond memories of "being there" when X player managed to something amazing, or heartbreakingly failed to do something amazing. When you said that you are in the minority of fans of SC2, you attacked a lot of people's notions of what it means to be a fan and the things they like about the community and the culture of the sport. Now, I understand that that isn't what you meant to do. But getting angry at them for misunderstanding you isn't helping, and frankly you should have defined your terms earlier. At this point we all understand each other (I hope), but the initial kerfuffle happened because of a lack of rigor on your part. So in conclusion, I lost 3.14 respect points for you. You owe me a pie (I like apple and peach). It's almost like you think it is unreasonable to define Star craft II as the actual video game it's self and not crowds, color of peoples skin, or music. It's perfectly clear what he means and he should not have to explain or "define your terms" as you say something like this unless several people show zero capability of comprehending something so basic, and when they did he explained further. It's perfectly reasonable to refer to Starcraft II as the game it's self and not color of skins, crowds, music etc and only the actual video game it's self and it's even more clear what he means by the context of what he posted. If anyone takes what he said and conjures it to their own taste to make their argument better or to justify their anger at the post is just wrong and unreasonable.
We're not talking about the definition of SC2 but rather the definition of fan. And the word fan is about how much someone enjoys or likes something. It has little to do with how good someone is at something, or how familiar they are with its intricacies. It is essentially used as a measure of enthusiasm. Which is why most people think it doesn't make that much sense when Tyler describes himself as a bigger SC2 fan simply because he enjoys watching other people compete at the highest possible level, which is only one tiny aspect of the entity in this universe that we refer to as "SC2". Is some bronze leaguer who plays 4v4s with his friends all day and enjoys the hell out of it not an SC2 fan? If he isn't, then you have a very strange definition of that word that certainly requires clarification. If he had said, "I enjoy watching high-level SC2 gameplay more than your average bear", this wouldn't be a discussion.
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Too many e-peens flying around here
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On April 26 2012 02:21 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 22:27 HansK wrote:On April 25 2012 09:10 flowSthead wrote:On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2012 04:01 Leth0 wrote:
Guess I'm not a 'fan of sc2' since I enjoy watching an enthusiastic crowd, I enjoy watching 'white boys' do well. I'm not petty enough to waste time worrying 'mlg was better than DH , or DH was better than MLG' because I enjoyed both from what I watched of each tournament.
I don't understand where someone (especially someone whose job depends on us watching you 'white boys') gets off talking down to us as if our opinions on what we enjoy somehow make us less intelligent or 'wrong'. Insulting. You've provided a very poor description of what I said and what my opinions are because you are fucking stupid. There. That's insulting. I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler. + Show Spoiler +The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway. Tyler I don't disagree with anything you've said necessarily, but there is something to be said for the way you express yourself. Whether you meant to or not, your first two quotes are ripe for the interpretation that there are different types of fans, and you are a more "real" fan. Here are the quotes: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. "I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2." At this point, I understand exactly what you mean. You mean that SC2 is the program and the corresponding actions of two players playing a multiplayer game. From a viewer's perspective this also often includes an observer. Everything else, including banners, and crowds, and commentators, etc. are superfluous to the actual game because they do not change the outcome of the game nor do they have a direct effect on what happens in the game (although as we all know a crowd can have an indirect effect). That's fine. But that isn't what you said. As someone who has taken philosophy, and as a frequent forum poster, you should know that it is necessary to define your terms especially among people that do not have the same terms as you. What you say in these quotes doesn't contradict what you say later, but I think had you clarified in your initial posts, you wouldn't have needed to add anything later. Separately, I would also argue that different people have different definitions of what SC2 is. As in the big quote I spoilered, I know you have already realized this, but I am surprised that you didn't think of it initially. I think it is almost a cliche at this point to talk about how for many Americans baseball isn't just a bunch of players on a diamond throwing and hitting a ball with a stick, but also being part of a crowd and eating hot dogs during the summer. I think you are familiar with the idea that there is ownership in being a fan and a viewer. Whether or not that ownership is legitimate, it often stems from the spectacle of the sport, not the actual game itself. Thus, it directly leads to having ownership over the spectacle as well. It becomes not just "Idra/Huk/Nestea/MVP is the best/the worst/a time traveler that created everything" but also "MLG/DH/Homestory is the best/the worst." People talk about their experiences being at a live event, of feeling the energy of the crowd and of having fond memories of "being there" when X player managed to something amazing, or heartbreakingly failed to do something amazing. When you said that you are in the minority of fans of SC2, you attacked a lot of people's notions of what it means to be a fan and the things they like about the community and the culture of the sport. Now, I understand that that isn't what you meant to do. But getting angry at them for misunderstanding you isn't helping, and frankly you should have defined your terms earlier. At this point we all understand each other (I hope), but the initial kerfuffle happened because of a lack of rigor on your part. So in conclusion, I lost 3.14 respect points for you. You owe me a pie (I like apple and peach). It's almost like you think it is unreasonable to define Star craft II as the actual video game it's self and not crowds, color of peoples skin, or music. It's perfectly clear what he means and he should not have to explain or "define your terms" as you say something like this unless several people show zero capability of comprehending something so basic, and when they did he explained further. It's perfectly reasonable to refer to Starcraft II as the game it's self and not color of skins, crowds, music etc and only the actual video game it's self and it's even more clear what he means by the context of what he posted. If anyone takes what he said and conjures it to their own taste to make their argument better or to justify their anger at the post is just wrong and unreasonable. We're not talking about the definition of SC2 but rather the definition of fan. And the word fan is about how much someone enjoys or likes something. It has little to do with how good someone is at something, or how familiar they are with its intricacies. It is essentially used as a measure of enthusiasm. Which is why most people think it doesn't make that much sense when Tyler describes himself as a bigger SC2 fan simply because he enjoys watching other people compete at the highest possible level, which is only one tiny aspect of the entity in this universe that we refer to as "SC2". Is some bronze leaguer who plays 4v4s with his friends all day and enjoys the hell out of it not an SC2 fan? If he isn't, then you have a very strange definition of that word that certainly requires clarification. If he had said, "I enjoy watching high-level SC2 gameplay more than your average bear", this wouldn't be a discussion.
He's enthusiastic about watching high level games, maybe? Perhaps he is more enthusiastic about starcraft 2 the game than most, which is why he places so much more importance on game quality than the scene around it?
I think you are just confused. Being a fan has everything to do with enthusiasm, but it doesn't have to mean rooting for a team or caring about the 'storylines'. A fan of SC2, the game not the tv show, will be enthusiastic about the game, not the personalities or crowd.
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On April 26 2012 02:04 latan wrote:
Indeed, but in that case you don't say you are a fan.
Why? Can you explain this to me? Can you not 'enthusiastically' like something on an intellectual level?
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On April 26 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:04 latan wrote:
Indeed, but in that case you don't say you are a fan. Why? Can you explain this to me? Can you not 'enthusiastically' like something on an intellectual level?
I already said that "fan" implies an irrational attachment almost by definition.
it's funny because enthusiastic and intellectual often act as antonyms but yes, you can be ethusiasthic and you usually acknowledge that in that case the word fan makes you sound the least intellectual about it. or at least you try to narrow down your fandom object as close as possible: "I'm a fan of high level intricate play".
nevermind, I just realized enthusiasm is emotional, so no, you can't be enthusiastic on an intellectual level, you can be enthusiastic about intellectual things tho. But i'm just arguing for fun, I'll get out now.
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Welp, thanks to Tyler for completely trolling the shit out of everyone and keeping this thread active.
So trolling now also means "expressing someone's opinion in a well-argumented manner"?
On April 24 2012 01:11 Liquid`NonY wrote:
If I could, I would download videos of the games and watch those. That's what I did in BW. That's what everyone did on eSTRO. We would download the videos and watch the games at 1.5x or 2x speed. I already made a post suggesting to release videos with torrents and an RSS feed instead of having VOD archives on web sites. No tournament will do it because they want you visiting their site or their stream channel. I was hoping that paying for their content would be enough for them to provide a better delivery system but apparently not so far.
There's many things that are wrong with the state of mass media, including distribution, and there's a lot of people that think that for ESPORTS to "grow", it has to follow the exact same models, including everything that's wrong with them. You can download VODs from most major tournaments, of course, but ideally we'd have the actual content creators try to improve the viewing experience.
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On April 25 2012 23:54 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I am a bigger fan of SC2 than most. There are lots of people who are bigger fans of ESPORTS 'round these parts. If that makes them think that I think that I'm superior, maybe that's from their own self-hating, guilty judgment. I don't claim superiority, just different interests. I do claim that SC2 is the core of our shared interests. That's not a property that necessitates superiority. People seek out offensive behavior and find it where it doesn't exist.
First of all: I personally am happily a casual (or as some would have it lesser ) fan of Starcraft 2. I have no stake in who the bigger fan is, as it is most certainly not me. However this discussion I find interesting and like to point out a few things that jumped at me.
Your assumption that fans who care for Esports rather then pure gameply are hating themsleves over their preference seems to imply (to me at least) that despite what you're saying you do attach a certain value-judgement to said prefence. After all you see it as a reason for self hate to have another prefernce then you.
By your own words you think you are the "bigger fan" of "the core of our shared interests" yet you argue that you do not claim superiority.
Fans always will and always have been arguing and competing about who is "the bigger fan". And to claim that you are has always been a claim of superiority (in the area of fandom). The people you are talking to are defining themselves as SC2 fans and not "tournament production fans", "Esports fans" or "nice overlay fans". So to say to SC2 fans you're the bigger fan is, or at least carries the meaning of, a claim to superiority, at least to the people that define themselves as SC2 fans.
Even if we define SC2 as purely the game as found on DVD, most people would define a "SC2 fan" as something else then a "a fan of the game SC2 as found on DVD". After all, a fan purely after that definition simply wouldn't waste his time on externals (to the game itself) like a discussion of the meaning of being a SC2 fan.
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