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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On September 21 2011 15:14 0neder wrote:
Actually there were concrete takeaways that we have been mentioning for months:
1 - DO NOT show supply/stats/progress tabs during games. It is more exciting to not know everything that is going on. We must start a petition to get major leagues and tournaments to commit to this. We don't want commentators relying on these things to just tell us what we already know. That's like a crappy powerpoint presentation. DO NOT SHOW THEM GSL, MLG, IGN, NASL, IEM, ANYONE PLEASE!
2 - Do not have major individual events so fast (GSL). Rather, have a regular team league to build fans and familiarity with players, develop team personalities and allegiances, as well as a testing ground for new players that get people excited and talking.
3 - Give it time. With the exception of a few players (MVP/Nestea/etc), almost everyone in SC2 right now sucks compared to the current (last 4-5 years) skill level in BroodWar. BW is also more meaningful because of the ongoing history (13 years) - only time can do this.
4 - More meaningful events (as well as regular proleague) will solidify and build the fanbase more than nonstop events - and it will also attract needed sponsors for the Korean scene.
I agree with all of this.
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I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
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United States980 Posts
On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Nobody knows what the fuck is going on? That's really hyperbolic. We'd still know what was going on, because we'd be watching the game. We just wouldn't be omniscient to the point of apathy past a certain point.
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On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
It's not really the same. Football score would be better compared to the score of the series (1-0, etc.) rather than in-game supplies. You've got the casters to tell you what's going on in the game.
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On September 21 2011 15:30 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:14 0neder wrote:
Actually there were concrete takeaways that we have been mentioning for months:
1 - DO NOT show supply/stats/progress tabs during games. It is more exciting to not know everything that is going on. We must start a petition to get major leagues and tournaments to commit to this. We don't want commentators relying on these things to just tell us what we already know. That's like a crappy powerpoint presentation. DO NOT SHOW THEM GSL, MLG, IGN, NASL, IEM, ANYONE PLEASE!
2 - Do not have major individual events so fast (GSL). Rather, have a regular team league to build fans and familiarity with players, develop team personalities and allegiances, as well as a testing ground for new players that get people excited and talking.
3 - Give it time. With the exception of a few players (MVP/Nestea/etc), almost everyone in SC2 right now sucks compared to the current (last 4-5 years) skill level in BroodWar. BW is also more meaningful because of the ongoing history (13 years) - only time can do this.
4 - More meaningful events (as well as regular proleague) will solidify and build the fanbase more than nonstop events - and it will also attract needed sponsors for the Korean scene. I agree with all of this.
Me too. They are not new points. But I forgot one point:
5 . Unit speed:
Hellions are Speed Shuttles are ridiculously fast. SC2 needs faster units like the zergling. Hellions need their speed upgrade back, and air units in general are much too slow. Zealots should lose stupid charge and get a slight buff on the speed boost they get from the charge upgrade.
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[QUOTE]On September 21 2011 15:37 TedJustice wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on.[/QUOTE]
That's because the progress bar is sitting there taking up nice screen real estate being irresistable to look at instead of the ACTUAL ACTION. Go watch the OSL finals Jangbi vs Soo and see the difference it makes. It is SO much more exciting, EVEN given a mediocre quality game.
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On September 21 2011 15:37 Ryncol wrote:
We just wouldn't be omniscient to the point of apathy past a certain point.
Perfectly worded. Knowing everything leaves nothing to be uncertain about. Uncertainty is the catalyst to excitement.
Easy example.
- We see player 1 slowly approaching with a dangerous push.
- Player 2 doesn't have enough stuff, but has more forces morphing and a key upgrade on the way.
- We can see player 2''s units are coming out in 5 seconds and his upgrade will finish before the attack begins, so he has nothing to worry about.
- Excitement gone. Apathy and boredom ensue.
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I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea of trying to create drama by making the audience more ignorant of exactly whats happening in the game by taking away data from the viewers.
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On September 21 2011 15:37 Ryncol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on. Nobody knows what the fuck is going on? That's really hyperbolic. We'd still know what was going on, because we'd be watching the game. We just wouldn't be omniscient to the point of apathy past a certain point.
That's just dumb.
The casters - without mentioning names - regulary miss what's going on. We can't click on the minimap. Quite often anyone diamond and higher knows better than the casters what's going on since we can see the money & the supply and infer why shit is being done the way it is, and why the game is close - or not close, even though the casters state the opposite.
Quite a few GSL games last season comes to mind where having the information gave much-needed information to appreciate what was actually going on in the games ...
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Another great example: DoA and Wolf talking with the passivity and volume of golf announcers. When the gamebreaking moment happens, DoA just reviews the supply differential without any exciting reference, description, or metaphor of how player 1 stomped player 2. Most of the game DoA just reviews supply stuff after every engagement so you know exactly where the players stand. It's horrible. This is for casual entertainment, this isn't for masters scrubs trying to steal stuff from these games. Come on guys!
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I am one of the rare guys who became pretty good at sc2 and then switched to bw.
I did not enjoy watching bw, and I assume most new guys here wouldn't because I could not understand what was going on. This was compounded by low video quality and screaming koreans. I would watch a whole game and when the "jeeejeeee" came I had no idea who won.
After playing bw for just a short while, I find it immensely more entertaining to watch than sc2, and I think anyone who followed bw knows why. However, I find sc2 much more enjoyable to play. Harder mechanics and game engine glitches make you clap your hands to the virtuosism of the bw pros, but I don't find enticing the perspective of training for months just to improve micro techniques to a point where I don't get stomped on ladder. Those who say that mbs and unlimited control groups ruined sc2 are ridiculous, but they do remove "cheap" entertainment value from spectator sc2 while vastly improving my amateur player experience.
And the bulk of what makes watching bw great, strategy, tactics, multitasking, should have no reason to get lost in translation. I'm pretty hopeful for the future of sc2.
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On September 21 2011 15:47 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:37 Ryncol wrote:On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on. Nobody knows what the fuck is going on? That's really hyperbolic. We'd still know what was going on, because we'd be watching the game. We just wouldn't be omniscient to the point of apathy past a certain point. That's just dumb. The casters - without mentioning names - regulary miss what's going on. We can't click on the minimap. Quite often anyone diamond and higher knows better than the casters what's going on since we can see the money & the supply and infer why shit is being done the way it is, and why the game is close - or not close, even though the casters state the opposite. Quite a few GSL games last season comes to mind where having the information gave much-needed information to appreciate what was actually going on in the games ...
Before you continue, how much pro BW have you watched? Casters missing things or INTENTIONALLY WAITING to reveal them until the moment is right is the epitome of the their mastery that was essential to making BW the mainstream following it had in Korea.
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On September 21 2011 15:32 darkscream wrote:
I would probably stop watching starcraft if the information was hidden. That would be like watching a football game and not knowing the score. Sure, it creates drama, but only because nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Having less information made BW games much more exciting. Can you imagine Boxer vs Joyo on Paradoxx if we had production tabs and supply/resources comparisons back then? Nobody would've watched that game twice. Or when Yellow had a perfect lurker contain on Reach on Mercury (heavily imbalanced ZvP map back in the day) and Reach broke out with 20 speedlots out of nowhere? It was an incredibly epic moment for a game 5 which would've been much less exciting if we had this SC2 observer interface.
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I know progress stuff can be toggled off. Can the supply/resources stuff be toggled off?
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Not showing the supply and stuff sounds like an awful idea. OSL has their resource counter and the MSL doesn't -- having the resource counter doesn't make OSL games less enjoyable than MSL games, and the information is interesting from time to time. SC2 offers even more information than what's available for OSL and I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to take advantage of that.
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Hey, I love the show, love you guys, but too many European jokes... it is fun once in a while, but good lord. Too much.
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Aside from a few comments from idra it seems like the big personalities are really afraid of making direct comparisons between sc1 and sc2. In the show just now you could hear them get close a couple times but then shy away. I can understand why, but it would be really interesting to know how they honestly feel.
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On September 21 2011 15:40 0neder wrote:
real estate being irresistable to look at instead of the ACTUAL ACTION. Go watch the OSL finals Jangbi vs Soo and see the difference it makes. It is SO much more exciting, EVEN given a mediocre quality game.
OMG GO WATCH BROOD WAR FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP
Sorry, there's no argument that can convince me. Maybe some people like being in the dark but I don't. It's not better for me. I think it's not better for e-sports in general... It's hard enough to bring in new people as-is, because understanding the game as an outsider is hard. It would be even harder without an actual graph or numbers to show people.
And the point that the casters will tell you whats going in is pretty bad too. Sometimes casters are trash. Sometimes they're GREAT of course. But on the off chance the casters predict the wrong thing, say the wrong thing or miss something? I like to see the numbers and the minimap because sometimes they get it wrong. For example in Code A today, one of the casters called a 10pool, but it wasn't a 10pool, I could tell by the production tab.
I don't want to be taken emotionally by a game because of ambiguity - that's what playing the game is for.
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Anyone know how long untill the VOD of the latest episode is up?
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EPT
