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On October 28 2010 03:35 ApBuLLet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 21:15 Ghad wrote:On October 27 2010 13:57 okuraku wrote:
Nice cast this week guys, it's becoming increasingly hard to listen to it at work because it's so hilarious / takes all my attention, lol ^^
Yeah, I had to stop. Now i just make a fool out of myself listening to it while walking home, going along streets sniggering and hollering like a crazy person. Lol yeah my roommates think I'm crazy... too bad they don't understand SC. They'd probably find it kinda funny anyway though.
LoL i listened to it while working and i was cracking up big time. The janitor came in to clean my lab and heard me LMFAO and asked what i was listening to. Now that was crazy awkward trying to make something up on the spot. I'm pretty sure he didn't believe me.
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I want to hear their opinion on Fruit Dealer/FoxeR game xD
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Man I just loved the comparison about SC2 that Tyler made with the whole pulling off a sweet move on halo, knowing that your microwave just about to finish your meal and coming up with the math answer all at the same time. Too awesome!
Did you guys also say that Idra is facing IMmvp in ro16? Bit of a slip there...
Loved the latest SOTG, you guys are just great.
[edit]
Just to throw it out there, when I go to the shitter I sometimes forget a magazine and all I have is my phone that has only two audio tracks on it. Two state of the games from May that I sometimes listen to and it's too funny to hear how "infantile" your discussions if you compare to the knowledge and experiences we have now. Love those little moments when you can really tell how far we've come in SC2 progaming.
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No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard:
Edit: Great episode regardless I feel I should mention.
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Yea, its hilarious to listen to some of the older casts. on one of them Day[J] is like "i wish tanks did the normal 50 damage to normal units and then like 160 to armorred units so that they would be able to kill roaches!" it was extremely funny.
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On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard:
yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful.
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seriously I just listen to this show for InControls impressions (ofc JP and tyler are awsome too ^^) sooooo hilarious
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On October 28 2010 02:45 Phos wrote:
that text chat only guest really didnt work at all. but great show otherwise! thanks for these!
also the new logo is not really a logo, is it? i thought something a little more layouted and designed would fit a lot better.
unfortunatly, graphic design isn't what I do. JP asked for a pro-bono sc2 themed 500x500 img.
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On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful.
Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage.
Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too.
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On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too.
That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons.
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Last show was really good love listening to this guys. I would like to see Gretorp on there more often I really really like his analytical style he is really in to the numbers and the strategy of the game and talks really techinical I think the show is missing that straight up techinical guy idrA fills that role great Gretorp was excellent on the show.
I do love listening to incontrols out of control rants and tangents lol.
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8748 Posts
On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons.
Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)...
Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles.
And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you.
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On October 28 2010 07:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons. Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)... Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles. And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you.
I remember reading in one of the threads describing the panel that stim wasn't particularly helpful to marauders when they used unit testers that essentially just A-move two armies together. If I remember correctly, after saying that, they added that things like the micro from the increase to speed due to stim makes the stim more worthwhile. So Tyler's exactly right in this case and the developers agree with him. I think the panel was trying to say that marauder stim isn't horribly broken because it is only really effective when micro'd properly. Basically their point was that if stim was horribly broken it would be more effective in just an A-move situation.
Edit: Found the thread I was talking about: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596#15
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On October 28 2010 07:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons. Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)... Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles. And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you.
Same can be said about stalkers (when not facing stim marauders that is  ) and speedlings
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On October 28 2010 07:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons. Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)... Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles. And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you.
Not wanting to be pedantic here but I feel you are being just as bad.
Yes you can snipe some off in chokes and retreat etc, but that is not really what I or blizzard were talking about.
Obviously the movement speed is huge and a major part of why stim is great.
But that isn't the point!
If you go back over whatshisface from blizzard said on the mutliplayer panel he said that if you lower the damage increase, or increase the hp cost then stim makes marauders perform worse in a fight. This does matter, aside from any movement speed bonus the point of stim is improved damage and combat effectiveness. Without stim marauders really only just beat stalkers, stalkers with blink easily beat maraduers, stim marauders are slightly better than micro'd blink stalkers.
Take away the damage increase and that isn't the case anymore and maraduers lose their purpose. This is the problem and this is what blizzard was talking about.
I know iNcontrol was somewhat joking when talking about the panel but really I thought the panel itself was really quite good and their answers and explanations did make a lot of sense once you think about it from a game design perspective and not a protoss player. It just kind of sets a bad example, complaining and bitching that they said something dumb when they in fact didn't is just going to hurt things. It's why a lot of developers don't say anything about balance changes and just release the patch, becasue no matter what they say people bitch and twist it into something negative.
It's annoying to see and really just puts off developers from talking to the community, blizzard is really unusually forthcoming about the reasons behind changes and the development process. Complaining and bitching is only going to hurt or hinder that.
At the end of the day the numbers say the marauder is not unbalanced, that's all blizzard were saying. It's just your opinion as a protoss player that it is too strong, and you are biased as a professional protoss player. Making them sound wrong to support your own opinion is pretty poor form.
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Does iNControl have his own posts or vods i can watch? He is hilarious and i want to listen to him some more.
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On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Wait what, is this true? I dont see anyone arguing it and i always swear it was 10hp :\
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On October 28 2010 09:33 darmousseh wrote:
Does iNControl have his own posts or vods i can watch? He is hilarious and i want to listen to him some more.
You can listen to his old TL Attack...Oh wait his mike was broken
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On October 28 2010 09:37 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about. Wait what, is this true? I dont see anyone arguing it and i always swear it was 10hp :\
I thought it was 10 too
But is 20 for marauders 10 for marines....
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On October 28 2010 09:37 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about. Wait what, is this true? I dont see anyone arguing it and i always swear it was 10hp :\
Marines 10hp, Marauders 20hp.
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EPT
