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On October 28 2010 08:55 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 07:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons. Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)... Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles. And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you. Same can be said about stalkers (when not facing stim marauders that is  ) and speedlings
Concussive shell = Marauders kite whatever they want as long as its not massive units (which they can still kite or at the very least run away from with stim actually), while not being kite-able by it.
Speedlings in groups are a special case however since they are so fast and numerous it makes them fantastic against conc marauders.
Protoss doesn't have speedlings though. The supposed marauder-owning immortals are already slow as f*ck without stim/conc shell taken into consideration. Not only that.. Marauders outrange immortals. *tear*
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8748 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:24 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 07:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On October 28 2010 06:42 Logo wrote:On October 28 2010 06:31 Kazang wrote:On October 28 2010 06:17 italiangymnast wrote:On October 28 2010 06:13 Kazang wrote:
No Idea if someone already said this but iNcontrol your totally off about what Blizzard said about marauder stim.
Marauders take 20hp per stim for a start not 10, which is funny since you think blizzard don't know what they are talking about.
Secondly in a combat situation of Stalkers against Marauders, Stim only makes the engagement slightly better for the marauder. The fight ends faster obviously, but the marauders will survive with only 20% more units, and in a one stalker Vs one marauder situation the marauder has only 19hp more left after the fight with stim.
Which is going from only just beating stalkers with 8 hp left, to have 27hp. It's a fine line between being worth using and being a waste.
So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders. Also consider the fact that Stimmed marauders get 2 shot by tanks, non stimmed it takes 3 shots, that is a 50% more shots, in exchange for 50% more damage done. One may even think that is balanced mathematically, no?
That is why nerfing stim on marauders would make using stim actually a bad idea, unless kiting melee units for the move speed bonus. Any situation where the marauders are taking damage it would easily be the same or worse.
:White Knighting Blizzard: yes but you have to take into account that marauders are cheaper than stalkers, and stim also makes them move faster, not just increases attack speed. this is the real issue because kiting with stim is not only super easy, but incredibly powerful. Kiting melee units is a completely different scenario, the dps and health doesn't really matter in that situation, it's purely the move speed since the marauder doesn't take damage. Kiting stalkers or colossus is obviously impossible, and this is the situation Blizzard were referring too. That's not true at all. You can totally kite stalkers, just not in the same way as say roaches. Kiting stalkers can deny a concave, equalizing the amount of damage being dealt if one side has a larger force (or just reducing the stalker's damage by reducing the # that fire back). It also draws out the fight allowing for the Terran to get more units out or heal more via medivacs and can draw units further away from reinforcement pylons. Yeah this is correct. And stim also makes Marauders immune to being kited (and definitely when combined with conc shells, though they're not always a factor)... Move speed helps immensely. Higher move speed definitely increases damage in a normal battle and can drastically increase damage in weird battles. And if part of our judgment of how useful stim is involves seeing how much health a Marauder has at the end of a battle, you definitely have to give a huge advantage to move speed because it makes retreat possible. Marine/Marauder losing battle without stim = nothing left. Marine/Marauder losing battle with stim = you have however much you have left when you decided to right click the ground behind you. Not wanting to be pedantic here but I feel you are being just as bad. Yes you can snipe some off in chokes and retreat etc, but that is not really what I or blizzard were talking about. Obviously the movement speed is huge and a major part of why stim is great. But that isn't the point!If you go back over whatshisface from blizzard said on the mutliplayer panel he said that if you lower the damage increase, or increase the hp cost then stim makes marauders perform worse in a fight. This does matter, aside from any movement speed bonus the point of stim is improved damage and combat effectiveness. Without stim marauders really only just beat stalkers, stalkers with blink easily beat maraduers, stim marauders are slightly better than micro'd blink stalkers. Take away the damage increase and that isn't the case anymore and maraduers lose their purpose. This is the problem and this is what blizzard was talking about. I know iNcontrol was somewhat joking when talking about the panel but really I thought the panel itself was really quite good and their answers and explanations did make a lot of sense once you think about it from a game design perspective and not a protoss player. It just kind of sets a bad example, complaining and bitching that they said something dumb when they in fact didn't is just going to hurt things. It's why a lot of developers don't say anything about balance changes and just release the patch, becasue no matter what they say people bitch and twist it into something negative. It's annoying to see and really just puts off developers from talking to the community, blizzard is really unusually forthcoming about the reasons behind changes and the development process. Complaining and bitching is only going to hurt or hinder that. At the end of the day the numbers say the marauder is not unbalanced, that's all blizzard were saying. It's just your opinion as a protoss player that it is too strong, and you are biased as a professional protoss player. Making them sound wrong to support your own opinion is pretty poor form.
"if you lower the damage increase, or increase the hp cost then stim makes marauders perform worse in a fight" This is obvious. Either one of those changes would be a straight up nerf. Nobody can argue that.
But you said "So what blizzard are saying is that if they nerf marauder stim to damage the marauder more or do less damage it will actually make stimmed marauders worse in a fight than plain un-stimmed marauders." Now there's a little more going on here. While stim could be nerfed to the point where it's worse than not stimming in a straight up attack move battle, the move speed benefits make stim worth it in a lot of situations. So that's why we've now had a discussion about why move speed matters. If you want to ignore it then I guess we don't have common ground here. My concern is that a newbie hearing what you just said is going to think stim would be worthless if it's nerfed like that. They might think that nerfing stim is a ridiculous notion and be totally against it because it doesn't make any sense. So I want to put a word in to say that it wouldn't be total nonsense. It would be worse if you don't take advantage of the move speed but it'd still be better if you do. Whether or not Marauders are balanced now and whether or not they'd be balanced if they received such a nerf is a totally different topic that I haven't breached.
Also, ignoring move speed, there are other situations where stim would be worth it: medivacs heal enough health before the marauders enter combat (stim, heal for 5 seconds, run in), marauders in bunkers, marauders that aren't in bunkers but still arent taking any damage (drop harass is one obvious situation, but also in battles where the marauders are protected by something else like a thor or enemy is focus firing your banshee or other high priority target or PDD is blocking shots), when you're favored to win a battle you can win it faster by stimming (enemy has split up his army, you have 10 seconds before his reinforcements arrive. if you stim, you can kill half of his army before his reinforcements get there and then run away. if you don't stim, you can kill his army "more efficiently" and then get owned by his reinforcements), enemy is running away (yes move speed helps here, but higher dps also helps). So there are 5 situations where stim would still be useful and that's ignoring the incredible move speed buff it gives.
If stim doesn't increase hp per dps, but rather decreases hp per dps and boosts dps, it's basically "push this button to turn your army into glass cannons" and I think anyone with some RTS experience can see the use of that.
As for your last paragraph, which I'll quote again here:
At the end of the day the numbers say the marauder is not unbalanced, that's all blizzard were saying. It's just your opinion as a protoss player that it is too strong, and you are biased as a professional protoss player. Making them sound wrong to support your own opinion is pretty poor form.
You've already voiced the sentiment that I have: "no matter what they say people bitch and twist it into something negative" because really I haven't done anything to make Blizzard sound wrong about this case. You're twisting my words into something negative. That's all I did was agree with a guy who explained how kiting Stalkers is useful and then I added the facts that increased move speed increases damage and the increased movement from stim makes marauders cross the threshold of movement speed necessary for retreating. These are facts just like the things I've written earlier in this post. I'm not judging stimmed marauders.
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I agree with what Kazang has said. InControl took some things out of context from panel's discussion when he was going off in the last podcast. Browder (I think) was specifically talking about one of the tools they use for balance decisions. This tools A-moves different sets of units in and tests how they perform in an unmicroed environment. In this context, stim for Marauders doesn't always do a ton. To rip the panel for bringing up this point makes it sound like you weren't listening to what they were saying. Clearly it's important to also look at how Marauders do in small, heavily-microed battles is important, but it's also important to look at how they do in large battles where individual kiting isn't really an option. If you nerf stim's damage so that Marauders are less effective early, you also make them less effective late-game in large-scale battles, where Terran is already having some difficulty vs. Protoss.
From my perspective, it sounded like a reasonable thought process, and I appreciated them going into some detail about the various tools they look at for balance.
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On October 28 2010 10:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +At the end of the day the numbers say the marauder is not unbalanced, that's all blizzard were saying. It's just your opinion as a protoss player that it is too strong, and you are biased as a professional protoss player. Making them sound wrong to support your own opinion is pretty poor form. You've already voiced the sentiment that I have: "no matter what they say people bitch and twist it into something negative" because really I haven't done anything to make Blizzard sound wrong about this case. You're twisting my words into something negative. That's all I did was agree with a guy who explained how kiting Stalkers is useful and then I added the facts that increased move speed increases damage and the increased movement from stim makes marauders cross the threshold of movement speed necessary for retreating. These are facts just like the things I've written earlier in this post. I'm not judging stimmed marauders.
I didn't say anything about what you said, I was talking about what iNcontrol said in the podcast.
My statement about negative attitudes towards developers wasn't directed at anyone, it was a general statement of what happens when any developer makes a change and generally interacts with community, it wasn't even specific to Blizzard. Which should have been fairly obvious from the wording, sorry if you got the wrong idea but that wasn't the intention.
It's not "oh tyler is negative and twisting words", nothing like that, it's not especially not about the balance of marauders which I definitely would not argue with you about, for that I was just reiterating what the panel actually said, and tried to give some context.
It's about iNcontrol either deliberately or by mistake unfairly criticizing what the devs on the panel said. People who didn't see the panel but listen to cast which is going to be quite a lot are going to think iNcontrol is right, as he usually is. This in turn lead can lead to negativity towards Blizzard and them being even less forthcoming information and interaction with the community for fear of negative backlash.
It's like when Fruit Dealer went on a little rant about how he loses all his practice games and how zerg suck etc before he won the GSL. Suddenly you have a horde of people claiming it to be gospel and that was irrefutable evidence that Zerg is terrible and needs major buffs, becasue he said it. You think someone reading my post may get the wrong idea becasue it simply seemed to have some thought put into it?
Incontrols words or yours are going to have 100 time more weight, not about balance in this situation but about Blizzard being wrong or stupid in regard to the marauder statements.
It's about not biting the hand that feeds, to put it somewhat melodramatically. I'm not like "INCONTROL MUST RETRACT THESE INFLAMMATORY STATEMENTS IMMEDIATELY!!" either. I'm just pointing out that it's really not a good idea to say stuff like when you have the ear of so many people. I'm not trying to argue about I just find it frustrating to see, as a developer myself it's something I find really disheartening.
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On October 28 2010 12:45 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 10:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:At the end of the day the numbers say the marauder is not unbalanced, that's all blizzard were saying. It's just your opinion as a protoss player that it is too strong, and you are biased as a professional protoss player. Making them sound wrong to support your own opinion is pretty poor form. You've already voiced the sentiment that I have: "no matter what they say people bitch and twist it into something negative" because really I haven't done anything to make Blizzard sound wrong about this case. You're twisting my words into something negative. That's all I did was agree with a guy who explained how kiting Stalkers is useful and then I added the facts that increased move speed increases damage and the increased movement from stim makes marauders cross the threshold of movement speed necessary for retreating. These are facts just like the things I've written earlier in this post. I'm not judging stimmed marauders. I didn't say anything about what you said, I was talking about what iNcontrol said in the podcast. My statement about negative attitudes towards developers wasn't directed at anyone, it was a general statement of what happens when any developer makes a change and generally interacts with community, it wasn't even specific to Blizzard. Which should have been fairly obvious from the wording, sorry if you got the wrong idea but that wasn't the intention. It's not "oh tyler is negative and twisting words", nothing like that, it's not especially not about the balance of marauders which I definitely would not argue with you about, for that I was just reiterating what the panel actually said, and tried to give some context. It's about iNcontrol either deliberately or by mistake unfairly criticizing what the devs on the panel said. People who didn't see the panel but listen to cast which is going to be quite a lot are going to think iNcontrol is right, as he usually is. This in turn lead can lead to negativity towards Blizzard and them being even less forthcoming information and interaction with the community for fear of negative backlash. It's like when Fruit Dealer went on a little rant about how he loses all his practice games and how zerg suck etc before he won the GSL. Suddenly you have a horde of people claiming it to be gospel and that was irrefutable evidence that Zerg is terrible and needs major buffs, becasue he said it. You think someone reading my post may get the wrong idea becasue it simply seemed to have some thought put into it? Incontrols words or yours are going to have 100 time more weight, not about balance in this situation but about Blizzard being wrong or stupid in regard to the marauder statements. It's about not biting the hand that feeds, to put it somewhat melodramatically. I'm not like "INCONTROL MUST RETRACT THESE INFLAMMATORY STATEMENTS IMMEDIATELY!!" either. I'm just pointing out that it's really not a good idea to say stuff like when you have the ear of so many people. I'm not trying to argue about I just find it frustrating to see, as a developer myself it's something I find really disheartening.
Oh, you scamps!
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Question for all: Why is this podcast so addictive?
I'm being serious. I've listened to the last cast, like, 3 times already. That's kind of messed up.
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kazang I mean blizzard did buff zerg last patch so maybe everyone wasn't complaining about nothing. gsl spoiler although everyone here already probably knows this: + Show Spoiler +I find it ironic that cool won the first gsl but is out of gsl 2 when zerg was buffed.
About the game balance: I'm pretty happy with the last patch. I have to give credit to blizzard's balance team even though I questioned just about every patch that game out since beta both because of the increased buffs to terran, nerfs to toss, and some stupid zerg changes. There's obviously still problems, but I think making pvp and pvt better is going to take some time because there's way more going on with those matchups. Marauders do seem too strong to me but I'd rather have blizzard keep them that way and start *gasp* buffing races again instead of nerfing everything. Poor toss, the only buff I remember is the phoenix shoot mechanic and that's pretty ridiculous.
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Prediction: EG will be picked up by PokerStars
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I'm 15 minutes in and there's been nothing but whine about the tournament and dev panels. Not much in the way of constructive criticism on how the actual tournament was run, mostly just "It was bad".
Then there's whine about the Blizzcon dev panel where they talk about getting better at the game (a panel for bronze->gold) and that they explain stuff in a basic fashion. Incontrol then complains about the Battle.net dev wanting prettier graphics for icons, yet totally misses things like featured replays, chat channels and watching replays with friends. Seems like he totally missed the SC2 multiplayer panel, you know, the one that's actually about multiplayer balance and stuff like that.
JP: "Diablo 3 might become a esport when it gets released."
Blizzard devs said multiple times that they are NOT balancing and treating D3 as a esport, and that they made that choice deliberately.
Get it together, guys.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
actually all the shit you mention gets discussed in the podcast.
That said, you are probably an idiot and will argue somehow that 15 minutes into a 1.5 hour podcast should reveal everything about everything and we shouldn't whine CAUSE GOD KNOWS WE NEVER DO THAT ON THE PODCAST
What the FUCK did you tune in expecting? Do you listen to the other podcasts we put out? This is more of the same... take it or leave it.
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On October 28 2010 17:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
actually all the shit you mention gets discussed in the podcast.
That said, you are probably an idiot and will argue somehow that 15 minutes into a 1.5 hour podcast should reveal everything about everything and we shouldn't whine CAUSE GOD KNOWS WE NEVER DO THAT ON THE PODCAST
What the FUCK did you tune in expecting? Do you listen to the other podcasts we put out? This is more of the same... take it or leave it.
<3333333333333333
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On October 28 2010 17:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
actually all the shit you mention gets discussed in the podcast.
That said, you are probably an idiot and will argue somehow that 15 minutes into a 1.5 hour podcast should reveal everything about everything and we shouldn't whine CAUSE GOD KNOWS WE NEVER DO THAT ON THE PODCAST
What the FUCK did you tune in expecting? Do you listen to the other podcasts we put out? This is more of the same... take it or leave it.
take your own advice and don't get in every argument.
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On October 28 2010 17:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
actually all the shit you mention gets discussed in the podcast.
That said, you are probably an idiot and will argue somehow that 15 minutes into a 1.5 hour podcast should reveal everything about everything and we shouldn't whine CAUSE GOD KNOWS WE NEVER DO THAT ON THE PODCAST
What the FUCK did you tune in expecting? Do you listen to the other podcasts we put out? This is more of the same... take it or leave it.
You're fat and terrible and your parents should get cancer!
<_<
>_>
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 28 2010 17:50 s.a.y wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
actually all the shit you mention gets discussed in the podcast.
That said, you are probably an idiot and will argue somehow that 15 minutes into a 1.5 hour podcast should reveal everything about everything and we shouldn't whine CAUSE GOD KNOWS WE NEVER DO THAT ON THE PODCAST
What the FUCK did you tune in expecting? Do you listen to the other podcasts we put out? This is more of the same... take it or leave it. take your own advice and don't get in every argument.
Argue my don't advice own. ment take
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Well. The lower players as myself, should not really comment on things like " nerfing stim", because if you are not a top, then I mean LiquidTyler level and IncontroL, we do not know it good enough to really comment and telling Blizzard what to do and not to do. We have not been in the same situations as they have.
I really think TL should open a " Pro" only section, where everybody could read it, but only pro's comment. ( This is kinda off topic ) So discussions like this does not accure!
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just stopping by to let you guys know that I absolutely love your podcast and I hope you will continue to pump out more solid content in the future 
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On October 28 2010 17:35 karpo wrote:
I'm 15 minutes in and there's been nothing but whine about the tournament and dev panels. Not much in the way of constructive criticism on how the actual tournament was run, mostly just "It was bad".
Then there's whine about the Blizzcon dev panel where they talk about getting better at the game (a panel for bronze->gold) and that they explain stuff in a basic fashion. Incontrol then complains about the Battle.net dev wanting prettier graphics for icons, yet totally misses things like featured replays, chat channels and watching replays with friends. Seems like he totally missed the SC2 multiplayer panel, you know, the one that's actually about multiplayer balance and stuff like that.
JP: "Diablo 3 might become a esport when it gets released."
Blizzard devs said multiple times that they are NOT balancing and treating D3 as a esport, and that they made that choice deliberately.
Get it together, guys.
JP himself admitted he wasn't in top form and he recorded the cast 3 hours after returning from Blizzcon.
Do you work for Blizzard, by any chance?
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On October 28 2010 13:41 Defacer wrote:
Question for all: Why is this podcast so addictive?
I'm being serious. I've listened to the last cast, like, 3 times already. That's kind of messed up.
SotG has some nice crude humor here and there ( they are not that offensive compared to some other jokes in the real world) that is mixed with serious moments of thoughts/analysis/etc. I don't really know of anyone else who discusses Starcraft 2 in a similar manner, but maybe someone can point me to them.
I like to think of SotG as a bunch of dudes rather than professionals (although they are professionals) who are talking about Starcraft 2 and the things that revolve around it. Makes it feel more comfortable. I already get enough of professionals talking through casts, but it's nice to see some personality and humor in SotG. As exciting as some professional casters may be, they gotta refrain from doing anything that made seem unprofessional hence they sacrifice some of the great parts of their person. That's also one of the reasons why watching the day9 dailies are awesome but watching him cast is not as fun but more serious.
On a side note:
JP's laugh makes things more funny. I also like to imagine Nony laying down on the couch with a cigar in hand petting his pet ferret and inControl sitting out on an old school southern style porch in a rocking chair, but that's just me.
But to get to the point, if you listened to it 3 times without liking it, then you don't like it. Or try listening to some of the earlier ones because the most recent one only had the usual 3. SotG is a treat for the community but they're not going to force the show on you so just keep that in mind.
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Wanted to kinda throw out a correction not sure if its been said yet. When incontrol was talking about David Kim was saying he was the best he was talking about himself as a random player atm according to ladder he is the Best random player in the world.
David Kim play Xp interview
Q. Is 'dayvie', the ID at near top of NA ladder rank, you?
A. Yes. Around ELL rank 200th skill level, as a random, I'm the best.
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Really, I just want to say that I love this podcast, and no, there are no caveats after that statement, Incontrol has been a great addition since the beta podcasts, sean's laughter is infectious, Nony has a really dry dead pan delivery, which in combination with incontrol parodying him creates some of the funniest moments of the podcast and JP is an all round good host.
So yeah, seriously don't professionalise SOTG too much, right now it feels great, feels like I'm eavesdropping on 4 friends + plus one random guest having a humorous discussion about a game that they all love to talk about.
I worry that if you make it too professional it would sound like someone reading the Blizzard patch notes in a monotonous voice for ten minutes.
p.s. The new artwork is lovely.
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EPT
