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On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote:
Dude it has been said so many times no:
1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player
2. Zerg is fine l2p
3. If you are still losing, just use nydus
4. It's the player, not the race
5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg
6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg
7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves:
1. Banelingbust!
2. Roaches!
3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome
4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
Why did you temp ban him for that  Seemed pretty hilarious. It's obviously sarcasm too.
At OP: I was a WC3 player before SC2 so I didn't know any specifics about BW. Knowing this stuff now really gives some good alternative perspective on the balance issues in the matchup. I never thought most of the stuff that way, but you're completely right.
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masterasia = secret asian superstar. i think he wants to maintain a low profile, but even my dad knows who he is because of his SC exploits in the motherland. i believe he used to be up there with f91, so if you're talking tournaments, he probably does have some of those qualifications 
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On August 15 2010 15:05 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:03 Iggyhopper wrote:On August 15 2010 14:40 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." He provided an example top-level zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine". Any arguing you did after that was changing the subject. There are more top-level Zerg that think Zerg is bad than there are top-level Zerg that think Zerg is fine. Do I have to quote the original post again? Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Clearly, one exists. Unless Saracen is accusing the person who supposedly talked to him of lying. The "top-level" Zerg have definitely not played against a "top-level" Terran. This is absurd. Some people may be able to win as Zerg. It doesn't mean that Zerg is in any way a solid race, it just means they are good enough to make up for the flaws in it.
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On August 15 2010 15:03 tournamentnow wrote:
The korean zergs don't think its that imba, but instead ZvP. The playstyle is very different. US/EU loves roach and zergling spam(floating minerals).
Asians zergs force terran to make turrets and thor, while massing more and more mutas and expanding quickly without full saturation of current hatcheries.
Saracen we all know you play zerg, that's why you are defending it so hard. Your whiny guide to TvZ proves it so. The quality of your posts have been diminishing. No one denies the zerg tech tree is broken, as blizzard officially stated 1.5 years b4 release that they didn't have a working zerg faction that felt right.
Also don't rely on the sc2ranks website because many good players don't actually ladder because of the prevalence of maphack.
Instead many good players play custom games with their connections(friends list duh) more than laddering.
As Dustin browder says:" the zergs in korea are way overpowered, while the US/EU zergs are so underpowered. Who should we listen to?' These are the type of things you have to tread carefully upon, its easy to misinterpret statistics solely based on your assumptions.
That quote was taken back in phase 1 it is no longer relevant, for an example IdrA has already stated that Cool(a zerg) plays 100% random on ladder now and even Check has started to play protoss because it's just too damn hard for zerg to win. Also Saracen isn't relying on sc2ranks website or whatever it's iEchoic who keeps saying EnvY is some top zerg while everyone Saracen namedrops has established results either in SC2 or in BW so their opinion matters way more than some random zerg who has points on ladder. Learn to read Saracen's post.
Also stop using EnvY as your standard for a "top-zerg" who disagrees that TvZ is inherently flawed. Who the hell is EnvY, what has he accomplished that we should consider his opinions even relevant to the discussion when people like Sheth, LaLush, IdrA consider there to be some serious issues.
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Well, thanks for the shoutout OP <3
Anyway as a response to the OP, and not much of the thread which I haven't got to reading yet... I 100% agree there are issues with ZvT, but I don't think its as big as an issue as everyone believes. I think that my ZvT is fairly good, and there are a handful of terrans on NA that I have consistent trouble with. My responses are simply how I deal with these "imbalances" according to my play style.
1. Mid-game I find siege tanks difficult, but not really a problem once hive tier units come into play. Ultralisks take tank hits well, and broodlords decimate them (air > tanks). I don't face them too much as I play fairly mutalisk oriented, but I've had my fair share of melted ground armies that are evenly matched.
2. I agree with the lack of openings. It comes down to an educated guessing game at guessing the terran opening. Obviously zerg has choices in deciding how many drones to pump, how to delay the terran agression, and countering isn't completely unheard of (maps like Kulas Ravine and Blistering sands allow for some great backdoor agression). Still, I think it is an issue that needs to be addressed. It's nearly impossible to cover every possibility and I find myself losing to cheese that I know is coming simply because its impossible to cover every possibility.
3. Mobility for my style of play isn't really an issue. Then again I generally go for mutalisk builds and don't rely purely on creep to move roaches/hydras around as a 200/200 army of ground units without ultras will melt to tanks (#1 is an issue for lack of variety, as it forces zergs to not use units that are countered by siege tanks).
4. I agree with this, and have said so many times. The issue to me is how the viking range counters broodlords, and marauders are such a basic counter to armored units. In 5 you talk about BCs, and these are easily countered by corruptors and not hydras. The second you see a BC pop out on the field, you better have a spire because you won't kill one without 15 hydras.
5. Not much to say here, haven't thought on it enough. SC2 is not BW, and while the games are similar I find the comparasins a bit much. The reinforcement comment is highly situational, and I don't think its accurate at all times, but I see where you are coming from.
6. Yes the smart tanks and the auto repair makes the AI very difficult. I have full confidence in blizzard that the repair imbalance will be fixed (I don't throw the word around lightly, but when a single PF or thor can kill 20 roaches there is an issue). Smart tanks I think can be fixed simply by nerfing the tank, as changing the AI here doesn't make sense to me.
Overall, I find that I am quite comfortable in ZvT, and despite some issues I believe that map balancing, small patches and changes in playstyle will balance the game out. I am not going to give up on zerg just yet, as the mechanics of the race are way too much fun, and have so much opportunity for good players to maximize (the reason I switched from toss in BW to zerg in SC2).
ps. my infestors die too fast, blizzard should fix that 
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Hey guys, I met this random guy on the ladder once, and he told me TvZ is just fine. I don't think he said that to make himself look cool/good, he was just giving his honest opinion after beating me (I'm super gosu in tvz btw, its my best MU, TvT is my worst ) and I totally agree with it.
I lose to zergs because, even though I'm an incredible terran player, sometimes the zerg players can outplay me far too much, which proves zerg isn't broken.
This random guy saying TvZ is fine means that DiMAGA, CooL, IdrA, Sheth, Machine, and all the other (ex)zerg players that are extremely disappointed with the race, honestly, don't know how to play. Maybe they should get some lessons with EnvY, he's super good guys trust me - he even beat me!
Really, if zerg continues to beat me in the ladder, zerg is CLEARLY fine. Just sac an overlord and use nydus.
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To the OP: This is a very well thought out, organized post. Thank you for not resorting to the same level of irrational, unbacked whining that many other zerg players have done.
I think many people in this thread are onto the right idea - the problem with TvZ isn't necessarily balance. Whether the balance is truly skewed is, I think, very difficult to judge. There are obviously top games happening where zerg players are winning quite handily (http://www.youtube.com/user/xHydrax#p/a/u/1/HpAkfgFjDh8 [watch part one and two]). I don't that that pure "balance" is necessarily the issue, although the BM zergs I play against in the ladder obviously disagree.
The problem is, indeed, in the lack of variety of options. It is very true that the number of options open to a terran player at the opening of a TvZ is much greater than the options a zerg player has. Hellions, ghosts, mech, bio, air... all of these are at least marginal openable against a top zerg player with a proper plan. It turns the matchup into something of a guessing game for the zerg player and an incorrect guess seems to resolve into a loss without anything the zerg can do about it. That's unfair, and needs to be fixed.
-Slurgi
(The opinions of a terran player. I'm so sick of flagrant complaints by sub-par players. Thank you for this thread, MasterAsia)
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If people want to address T issues then the Queen would also need to be addressed as it is part of the dynamic that cause the problem. That and the original trinity of shit, Roach, Immortal, Maruader.
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On August 15 2010 15:19 Kelberot wrote:Hey guys, I met this random guy on the ladder once, and he told me TvZ is just fine. I don't think he said that to make himself look cool/good, he was just giving his honest opinion after beating me (I'm super gosu in tvz btw, its my best MU, TvT is my worst ) and I totally agree with it.
I think you were trying to be funny but you just came off looking like you can't read.
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It hasn't been 1 month yet, you CANNOT draw conclusions in under a month about balance. Even protoss nubs are starting to adapt to the whole terran whine drama, its detrimental for strategy development and gives players a excuse to why they loose when they should really be searching for different, better and alternate strategies.
These kinds of threads are not constructive at all
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On August 15 2010 11:49 GoSu] wrote:
I think that if smart ai was removed for tanks, infested terran would be overpowered.
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Nope, it'll just make tanks weaker in all match-ups with possible counters:
TvT = Mule - Bombing would be interesting to see, and thus break away from the Tank Viking wars we see today.
ZvT = Infested Terrans give Zerg a chance for Zerg to punish poorly positioned Tanks and approach tank lines.
ZvP = Zlot Bombing would be decent again. As well as Warp-in, when the T reaches a hidden pylon powerfield, and gets punished with Zlots morphing in.
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On August 15 2010 15:05 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:03 Iggyhopper wrote:On August 15 2010 14:40 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." He provided an example top-level zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine". Any arguing you did after that was changing the subject. There are more top-level Zerg that think Zerg is bad than there are top-level Zerg that think Zerg is fine. Do I have to quote the original post again? Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Clearly, one exists. Unless Saracen is accusing the person who supposedly talked to him of lying.
Okay! You win - I was terribly and utterly wrong! I shouldn't have tried to work with absolutes! Because, as you have graciously shown, there exists a single "top" Zerg everyone has heard of called EnvY who disproves my statement. Sorry! You want a cookie? I really don't understand you people. You come into a thread, find one thing wrong with it, and nit-pick it to death, regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with the OP.
Look at {ToT}ColmA's post, The_Ostojiy's post, even Floophead's post. They try to generate good discussion, but it keeps getting buried under all this trash of people flexing their internet logical reasoning e-peens. I know I'm not helping at all by arguing with you guys, so I'll stop. But please try to keep this thread on track.
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On August 15 2010 15:25 EleanorRIgby wrote:
It hasn't been 1 month yet, you CANNOT draw conclusions in under a month about balance. Even protoss nubs are starting to adapt to the whole terran whine drama, its detrimental for strategy development and gives players a excuse to why they loose when they should really be searching for different, better and alternate strategies.
These kinds of threads are not constructive at all
Stop being in denial, these problems were prevalent even in Phase 2 of Beta. You also keep operating under the false pretense that people haven't bothered trying to come up with ways to win.
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On August 15 2010 15:29 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:05 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 15:03 Iggyhopper wrote:On August 15 2010 14:40 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." He provided an example top-level zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine". Any arguing you did after that was changing the subject. There are more top-level Zerg that think Zerg is bad than there are top-level Zerg that think Zerg is fine. Do I have to quote the original post again? On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Clearly, one exists. Unless Saracen is accusing the person who supposedly talked to him of lying. Okay! You win - I was terribly and utterly wrong! I shouldn't have tried to work with absolutes! Because, as you have graciously shown, there exists a single "top" Zerg everyone has heard of called EnvY who disproves my statement. Sorry! You want a cookie? I really don't understand you people. You come into a thread, find one thing wrong with it, and nit-pick it to death, regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with the OP. Look at {ToT}ColmA's post, The_Ostojiy's post, even Floophead's post. They try to generate good discussion, but it keeps getting buried under all this trash of people flexing their internet logical reasoning e-peens. I know I'm not helping at all by arguing with you guys, so I'll stop. But please try to keep this thread on track.
Man I never even got to read the posts by those other 2 guys. Stupid internet trash talk is cluttering up this forum so much now. =[
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On August 15 2010 15:29 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:05 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 15:03 Iggyhopper wrote:On August 15 2010 14:40 jalstar wrote:On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." He provided an example top-level zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine". Any arguing you did after that was changing the subject. There are more top-level Zerg that think Zerg is bad than there are top-level Zerg that think Zerg is fine. Do I have to quote the original post again? On August 15 2010 11:03 Saracen wrote:
At the moment, there doesn't exist a single top Zerg player who thinks TvZ is "fine." Clearly, one exists. Unless Saracen is accusing the person who supposedly talked to him of lying. Okay! You win - I was terribly and utterly wrong! I shouldn't have tried to work with absolutes! Because, as you have graciously shown, there exists a single "top" Zerg everyone has heard of called EnvY who disproves my statement. Sorry!
The poster who said your posting is going downhill is definitely right, all you've done is change the topic and be sarcastic whenever anyone posts a legitimate question.
You keep mocking my example but yet you keep dodging my question. Is MasterAsia a top zerg in SC2 or not? If so, please provide tournaments he's won, as per your criteria for a 'top' player. I was going to stop responding to you because you keep driving it off-topic but if you're going to keep dredging it up and mocking me then let's hear it.
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On August 15 2010 15:29 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:25 EleanorRIgby wrote:
It hasn't been 1 month yet, you CANNOT draw conclusions in under a month about balance. Even protoss nubs are starting to adapt to the whole terran whine drama, its detrimental for strategy development and gives players a excuse to why they loose when they should really be searching for different, better and alternate strategies.
These kinds of threads are not constructive at all Stop being in denial, these problems were prevalent even in Phase 2 of Beta. You also keep operating under the false pretense that people haven't bothered trying to come up with ways to win.
If people acted like you when broodwar was in its early stages zerg would be massively over powered and there wouldn't be as developed strategies as there are today and the perfect meta game wouldn't be obtained. So plz but your biscuits back your basket mr sc2 user
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The thing I'm worried about is that Blizzard will re-balance the game around their terrible maps, and then there won't be a FS or Python or other big macro map of SC2 because it would favor Zerg too much. They need to change the ladder map pool before fiddling with balance.
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You guys are silly. You can't state absolutes! It will get blown to pieces and then followed up by some bleebidy bloobidy blop anti-Z theory.
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On August 15 2010 15:21 Slurgi wrote:The problem is, indeed, in the lack of variety of options. It is very true that the number of options open to a terran player at the opening of a TvZ is much greater than the options a zerg player has. Hellions, ghosts, mech, bio, air... all of these are at least marginal openable against a top zerg player with a proper plan. It turns the matchup into something of a guessing game for the zerg player and an incorrect guess seems to resolve into a loss without anything the zerg can do about it. That's unfair, and needs to be fixed.
You said that the problem with TvZ wasn't necessarily a balance issue, but how isn't what I quoted above a balance issue?
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On August 15 2010 15:34 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:29 tangwhat wrote:On August 15 2010 15:25 EleanorRIgby wrote:
It hasn't been 1 month yet, you CANNOT draw conclusions in under a month about balance. Even protoss nubs are starting to adapt to the whole terran whine drama, its detrimental for strategy development and gives players a excuse to why they loose when they should really be searching for different, better and alternate strategies.
These kinds of threads are not constructive at all Stop being in denial, these problems were prevalent even in Phase 2 of Beta. You also keep operating under the false pretense that people haven't bothered trying to come up with ways to win. If people acted like you when broodwar was in its early stages zerg would be massively over powered and there wouldn't be as developed strategies as there are today and the perfect meta game wouldn't be obtained. So plz but your biscuits back your basket mr sc2 user
Cool this doesn't change the fact that all the top zergs who played BW are saying there's a problem. Oh what's that even players who aren't zerg are saying there's a problem? Well they must be stupid idiots right? What no MorroW and TesteR actually know what they're talking about? Stop being so defensive of Terran for a second and realise that people don't want imbalances to be switched around to Zerg imba but rather to fix certain key issues, some of these issues could also be solved with the mappool sure but Blizzard has already stated they wanted to keep the ladder mappool less "technical" so that becomes somewhat of an obstacle in balancing SC2 in the same way BW attained perfection.
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EPT
