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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:40 tangwhat wrote: Cool this doesn't change the fact that all the top zergs who played BW are saying there's a problem. "fact" Lol.. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:40 tangwhat wrote: Cool this doesn't change the fact that all the top zergs who played BW are saying there's a problem. have them play on the maps that shipped with BW and they'll say there's a problem too... | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:34 jalstar wrote: Destructible rocks seem to be one key map design element that the Zerg can exploit after surviving the initial reaper harass. If they let Terran turtle up a thor and some tanks, your mutalisks and roaches are done for, so you hurry up and get roaches and zerglings, bust down the wall, and that is how the Zerg get their maneuverability back.The thing I'm worried about is that Blizzard will re-balance the game around their terrible maps, and then there won't be a FS or Python or other big macro map of SC2 because it would favor Zerg too much. They need to change the ladder map pool before fiddling with balance. Seriously, this patch needs to come sooner rather than later. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:19 MasterAsia wrote: I did the test again. 1 thor kill 5 roaches, both side without upgrade. 6 Thors can kill 72 zerglings, usually you don't have that many. With 12 scvs 6 Thors kill 144 zerglings like a joke. (to me zergling is a slight counter to thors, not hard, and have you ever seen thors pushing out without helions when zerg has like 144 zerglings?) Zerglings are slightly faster than reapers and hellions, but they are countered by those two terran units, which gives terran the control of map when they push out. I think any zerg that's tried to "counter" thors with lings can attest to this. I hate thors. I especially hate their air splash vs light. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:37 Headshot wrote: You said that the problem with TvZ wasn't necessarily a balance issue, but how isn't what I quoted above a balance issue? Well the game could not be changed. Like we could have maps that would make certain options harder to do. Like have unscalable cliffs to prevent reapers. Large distances that would make maruader marine allin attacks useless. That way zerg would have to worry about less options... In the end this is it. If blizzard stop being ignorant and actually changes their whole stance on map making we may have a game thats balanced already. If not then atleast change the game so they work on the maps... | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On August 15 2010 13:44 Schism wrote: You must have missed the part where he wants to be able to spawn a single infested terran into a group of tanks and have all the tanks instantly implode, I agree Zerg need some tweaking, but the OP like all the other Zerg threads i've seen basically amounts to lamenting the days and strats of BW. My advice is switch to terran, when blizzard sees that virtually no decent players are using zerg, they might get the hint that there needs to be some work done. As a protoss player in SC2 and terran from BW, the only idea i have seen that i agree with for zerg so far is to increase base hydra speed. All tanks don't instantly explode if you have good positioning on them. Right now, you can just hit 'e' as soon as you see the Zerg army and not have to worry about splash. The problem with Pros switching race, is the amount of time it takes to learn the other race. If the pros knows/believes that Zerg is gonna get buffed/T gets nerfed w/e further down the road, then they will just hold out until it happens. No point wasting anytime in learning new Match-ups. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Lost Temple: narrow entrances for easy siege tank defense, ledges for drops Steppes: short distances make mech very powerful Kulas: reapers are incredibly strong on this map due to base distance + ridges near bases On maps like Metal I think the matchup is balanced in midgame, probably Z-favored in lategame. Terran still has no counter to ultralisks, should the game get that far. However I'll definitely agree that the map pool is not in Z's favor. I don't consider this a race balance issue, though, more a map balance issue. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
After watching quite a lot of replays as well as playing myself, things I feel to be true about zerg in general: - The Zerg creep mobility gimmick is played up too much in SC2. All the good players of zerg spread creep like, well, they're a zerg who is infesting the map itself. This is cool, thematically. The problem is just how reliant they are on this creep, AND HOW SCREWED THEY ARE OFF THIS CREEP - and as other players are realizing this, they're dealing with the advantage creep brings. I think the creep mechanic is interesting, but I think that (apart from zerglings, obviously) zerg shouldn't be so slow off-creep. If you get your early-ish roaches caught off-creep, you're pretty much doomed right there, goodbye roaches (Slow as molasses, argh. When it's against marauders, wow, just wow.) It also plagues hydralisks, roaches, and ultralisks incredibly, causing all of them to fight ineffectively compared to their cost. Zerg is so reliant on melee (or near-melee, in the case of roaches) units, they can't afford to be slow, ever. (Honestly, I feel like this is partially true for zealots too, though they don't necessarily need a change; charge is so badass.) Oh, one more thing about creep-mobility: It makes ZvZ a VERY screwed up matchup, holy crap. Example: It's early-game, I have 6 roaches and would like to try to do a little containing of my terran or protoss opponent (I'm not entirely sure why I went roaches at all here, or have no lings, but just trying to illustrate a point). He has ... 2-3 marauders w/ conc shell, or 2-3 stalkers. These units are all tier 1.5, right? Theoretically they should be on perhaps a slight rock-paper-scissors balance, but the balance is so against zerg it's not even funny; roaches just aren't good for attacking until you have the speed upgrade. Which requires lair tech. Conc shell? It's available immediately (at less cost, too!) Stalker speed? Oh, that's innate. Should roach speed not require lair? Should zerg units just be a LITTLE faster than they are off-creep, but the same speed on-creep as current (so creep is still a benefit, but less huge)? Why do so many zerg units require a speed-boost upgrade anyway, just to be ON PAR with the speed of anything that moves faster than "slow" I was very VERY surprised to find out that, while hydras WAY COSTLIER in SC2 (up from 75/25/1 in BW) their survivability is not improved at ALL. Why are Hydralisks, now a tier 2 unit, just MADE OF PAPER compared to EVERY SINGLE OTHER 2 supply unit? Shit, even a pair of marines has more HP than 1 hydra. So do a squad of zerglings of equal supply - both not true in BW, with hydra at 80 hp but 1 supply. Yes, I understand you're "Supposed" to make other units absorb fire for the hydras, but having 45 fewer HP than the next 2-supply unit (which costs 25 less gas) HP per cost of hydra is by far the LOWEST IN THE GAME, below even workers. (Possibly buff to 100-120? Their DPS is their strong point, they shouldn't become a tanky-type unit. But being as easy to kill as the same supply of probe/drones is dumb. Oh, and LESS mobile, too.) Hydras should probably be HP-buffed. They do GREAT when they're not taking damage, they blow things to smithereens. But if you're EVER actaully DAMAGING the hydras, you pretty much just win the fight. - Swarming/surrounding AI has issues targetting repairing workers. The thor example is great - a thor can be half-surrounded by SCVs, and it's so big that many of those scv's are very difficult to click, but no matter how many zerglings you have, that thor will never die unless you click down those SCVs one at a time. The terran, on the other hand, does absolutely nothing to prevent losing to a pack of lings that, if it could surround the thor, would tear it down with minimal losses. (Not saying that the zerg shouldn't have to micro, but you shouldn't need to micro so much to beat a thor that's untouched afk with a pile of scv's on auto-repair.) The infested terran tossed into a bioball+tank issue is another AI issue that is ridiculously helpful for the terran. The fix for the worker-repairing thing is simple: target repairing scvs as a higher priority target than the thing they're repairing. (Pretty sure this is already true of medivacs, if they're in range, and even medics on single player.) The auto-target priority on workers who are attacking is already astronomically high, why is it so low for repairing workers? - Spawn Larva is an inherently flawed mechanic, and needs to be re-worked. I really have no idea how to fix this, but the whole concept of a hatchery going up above 3 larva AS LONG AS YOU CLICK THIS BUTTON EVERY 30 SECONDS just feels wrong. Comparing this macro mechanic to Protoss' and Terran's macro mechanics, it feels both unnecessarily timing-intensive (an issue for the lower-skilled 90% of players) and meshes poorly with play ; there are no interesting spawn larva mechanics. Compare with the chrono-boost mechanic, where saving up energy can create interesting tactical decisions (boost probes? gateways? cybercore research?) or orbital command (mule for boosted economy? scan for a possibly necessary check-up? save for a possibly necessary boost or detection?) I have no idea how to properly re-work spawn larva to not suck, since if you simply push it in one direction or another, things get obviously get out of hand quickly. I think lowering the max larva a hatch can have (counting eggs) but speeding up the counter for the spawned larva to pop could work, but haven't done math on this to show it doesn't get horribly imbalanced. Shit, I feel like having an autocast on it, but cannot be cast if there are 7+ larva, would be better than the current design. My thoughts at this point are so goddamn scattered I can't really write anymore without leaving even more gargantuan holes in my arguments than there already are. | ||
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SlowBlink
United States102 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:21 Slurgi wrote: To the OP: This is a very well thought out, organized post. Thank you for not resorting to the same level of irrational, unbacked whining that many other zerg players have done. I think many people in this thread are onto the right idea - the problem with TvZ isn't necessarily balance. Whether the balance is truly skewed is, I think, very difficult to judge. There are obviously top games happening where zerg players are winning quite handily (http://www.youtube.com/user/xHydrax#p/a/u/1/HpAkfgFjDh8 [watch part one and two]). I don't that that pure "balance" is necessarily the issue, although the BM zergs I play against in the ladder obviously disagree. The problem is, indeed, in the lack of variety of options. It is very true that the number of options open to a terran player at the opening of a TvZ is much greater than the options a zerg player has. Hellions, ghosts, mech, bio, air... all of these are at least marginal openable against a top zerg player with a proper plan. It turns the matchup into something of a guessing game for the zerg player and an incorrect guess seems to resolve into a loss without anything the zerg can do about it. That's unfair, and needs to be fixed. -Slurgi (The opinions of a terran player. I'm so sick of flagrant complaints by sub-par players. Thank you for this thread, MasterAsia) So your proof that zvt isn't a problem in the korean pro scene is a tvz where the terran does a failed bunker rush, into a fast expansion with NO aggression midgame. That's clearly standard play for every terran, and is an accurate representation of current tvz. (that was sarcasm). | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:43 RifleCow wrote: Well the game could not be changed. Like we could have maps that would make certain options harder to do. Like have unscalable cliffs to prevent reapers. Large distances that would make maruader marine allin attacks useless. That way zerg would have to worry about less options... In the end this is it. If blizzard stop being ignorant and actually changes their whole stance on map making we may have a game thats balanced already. If not then atleast change the game so they work on the maps... Or instead of taking away options from the Terran players, we could give more options to the Zerg players somehow. And although the current maps play a large role in the current TvZ imbalance, that's only half of the problem. There are many more underlying issues with Zerg that can be found throughout this thread. | ||
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Duese
United States8 Posts
First is the obvious, terran have a lot of options compared to the other races. It makes playing 100 games as terran a bit more interesting because you can go all of those different options USUALLY effectively. This has nothing to do with the imbalance of the actual race, but rather the more linear unit progression of the other races to different strategies. Second, Z needs some way of dealing with turtling opponents. In a TvT fight, the game is typically won or lost on who controls air. Z air, specifically Muta's, are very weak against things like vikings and they get decimated if T has any Thor or is hopping Turrets. It's not uncommon to set up a siege tank line and follow it with 1-2 thor or just a ton of vikings. If I were to make suggestions on how to make TvZ better, I would do the following: - Give Thor the Collossus treatment. Air-to-Air can target Thor. - Give infestors a longer site range and ability range to make them more potent. - Make Corruption be an AoE damage increase instead of single target. As I say this, I also want to point out that while this may make things more "even", it's also walking straight into the boredom of TvT. Build 5 tanks and 70 vikings. Whoever has more vikings, wins! /sigh | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:50 Headshot wrote: Or instead of taking away options from the Terran players, we could give more options to the Zerg players somehow. And although the current maps play a large role in the current TvZ imbalance, that's only half of the problem. There are many more underlying issues with Zerg that can be found throughout this thread. Please say what the other issues are then, since Zerg are able to beat Terran in non-Bliz map showmatches. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137820 | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
If we didn't need creep to rely on speed, our race could be fixed because that affects every Zerg unit. | ||
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SiegeFlank
United States410 Posts
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DreXxiN
United States494 Posts
- Give Thor the Collossus treatment. Air-to-Air can target Thor. Not really sure what this would accomplish besides making Vikings and Tanks even more "the best strategy" in TvT lol | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On August 15 2010 15:54 jalstar wrote: Please say what the other issues are then, since Zerg are able to beat Terran in non-Bliz map showmatches. Read the fucking OP. And TvZ imbalance isn't disproved just because a Zerg player is able to beat a Terran player. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Zergs mobility has been tied to creep. And creep spread is a very slow process. While making maps larger will make many rush distances prohibitively long, lack of easy and fast ways to spread creep will make zerg even weaker on defense. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On August 15 2010 16:01 Headshot wrote: Read the fucking OP. And TvZ imbalance isn't disproved just because a Zerg player is able to beat a Terran player. Those issues are all very specific to the current map set of short rush distances and low maneuverability. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
1. Those who have nothing which you could call an argument 2. Those who state banelings/roaches/mutas are imbalanced so stfu 3. Those who say top zergs are beating top terrans. This is really funny for 2 things. 1. If i ask for names they say IdrA and Dimaga first, the nr 1 and nr 2 TvZ-is-imbalanced-fix-it zergs. The 2. is how Terrans think that the fact that some games are won at high level mean that it's balanced. If Blizzard would remove, the hydralisk, the ultralisk and the infestor right now from the Zerg arsenal, and the top zergs would keep playing Zerg, the would still win occasionaly with cheese or with muta-ling builds or with roach rushes, so those Terrans would still state the matchup is balanced. | ||
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Doughboy
United States721 Posts
Also I'm sad terran are learning how to deal with one base muta  | ||
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