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Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
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hopewellsmash
Profile Joined June 2010
17 Posts
August 15 2010 07:49 GMT
#201
On August 15 2010 16:47 purerythem wrote:


you could give the infestor some type of consume ability similar to the defiler.


that is an awesome idea. anyone else in favor of this?
potatomash3r
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia417 Posts
August 15 2010 07:51 GMT
#202
On August 15 2010 16:49 hopewellsmash wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2010 16:47 purerythem wrote:


you could give the infestor some type of consume ability similar to the defiler.


that is an awesome idea. anyone else in favor of this?


I agree, if psi storm and EMP can make it back into sc2 from SCBW why not consume?
Part of being mature is to accept your loss.
EvilMaishidon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States125 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 08:05:09
August 15 2010 08:04 GMT
#203
Im not going to comment on the issue right now, since im still thinking it over. But will everyone PLEASE stop calling the tanks attack "smart AI" or some other incorrect term? The AI is exactly the same. The difference is, that the tanks projectile has no travel time. In BW, the time between the tank shooting, and the blast occurring, was existent. In SC2, its instant. If it had been instant in BW, tanks would have been exactly the same as they are in SC2. Right now, im trying to find a way to add a travel time to the attack, so we could see if it actually makes a huge difference.
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 08:08:54
August 15 2010 08:08 GMT
#204
I agree with everything OP said, although I think the warnings and bans are being thrown around a bit too freely in this thread, maybe in some cases without even reading the full post...
Oleksandr
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
August 15 2010 08:12 GMT
#205
On August 15 2010 17:04 used man wrote:
Im not going to comment on the issue right now, since im still thinking it over. But will everyone PLEASE stop calling the tanks attack "smart AI" or some other incorrect term? The AI is exactly the same. The difference is, that the tanks projectile has no travel time. In BW, the time between the tank shooting, and the blast occurring, was existent. In SC2, its instant. If it had been instant in BW, tanks would have been exactly the same as they are in SC2. Right now, im trying to find a way to add a travel time to the attack, so we could see if it actually makes a huge difference.

Go back to programming and dictionaries, we are gamers here. The end result of new tank AI is smarter; that is all that matters.
Idra: good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers.
cerebralz
Profile Joined August 2009
United States443 Posts
August 15 2010 08:12 GMT
#206
I think something that would help for sure is let the hatchery be upgradable to a lair while producing queens at the same time. It would solve the early harass issue, and let zerg have a very clear choice of getting zergling speed first or lair first. Right now, there really is one choice, to get speed.

Being able to get 2 queens early as well as lair makes a big difference in defending some of the early harass, as well as spreading creep between your main and your natural. You can block the ramp from hellions, and chase down multiple reapers with only one spinecrawler. By the time you need lair tech for things like detection/hydra/burrow/ol speed, you will have it, rather than sacrifice too much in static defense.

That and/or reducing the morph time of lair/hive by a significant amount.

Also, there is nothing zerg can do that punishes T for muling excessively.
tangwhat
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand446 Posts
August 15 2010 08:15 GMT
#207
On August 15 2010 17:04 used man wrote:
Im not going to comment on the issue right now, since im still thinking it over. But will everyone PLEASE stop calling the tanks attack "smart AI" or some other incorrect term? The AI is exactly the same. The difference is, that the tanks projectile has no travel time. In BW, the time between the tank shooting, and the blast occurring, was existent. In SC2, its instant. If it had been instant in BW, tanks would have been exactly the same as they are in SC2. Right now, im trying to find a way to add a travel time to the attack, so we could see if it actually makes a huge difference.


Actually Blizzard has said the way tanks work is that there is a small fraction of a section separating each tank from firing simultaneously, it is this coupled with the no animation travel time that siege tanks fire "smarter". Because since there is a small interval between each tank fire well obviously overkill can't exist because tanks can't shoot at units that are already dead.
purerythem
Profile Joined June 2009
United States245 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 08:16:59
August 15 2010 08:16 GMT
#208
On August 15 2010 17:04 used man wrote:
Im not going to comment on the issue right now, since im still thinking it over. But will everyone PLEASE stop calling the tanks attack "smart AI" or some other incorrect term? The AI is exactly the same. The difference is, that the tanks projectile has no travel time. In BW, the time between the tank shooting, and the blast occurring, was existent. In SC2, its instant. If it had been instant in BW, tanks would have been exactly the same as they are in SC2. Right now, im trying to find a way to add a travel time to the attack, so we could see if it actually makes a huge difference.


In sc2, there is no overkill. So if one tank fires and that unit will die, the 2nd tank will automatically shoot at the next unit. Continue from there. It has nothing to do with travel time on attacks, simply there is no overkill.

If you are trolling, well played.
Vokasak
Profile Joined July 2010
United States388 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 08:21:10
August 15 2010 08:18 GMT
#209
So, assuming we take what's writen in the OP as a given, what do we do about it? This is pretty important...


On August 15 2010 17:16 purerythem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2010 17:04 used man wrote:
Im not going to comment on the issue right now, since im still thinking it over. But will everyone PLEASE stop calling the tanks attack "smart AI" or some other incorrect term? The AI is exactly the same. The difference is, that the tanks projectile has no travel time. In BW, the time between the tank shooting, and the blast occurring, was existent. In SC2, its instant. If it had been instant in BW, tanks would have been exactly the same as they are in SC2. Right now, im trying to find a way to add a travel time to the attack, so we could see if it actually makes a huge difference.


In sc2, there is no overkill. So if one tank fires and that unit will die, the 2nd tank will automatically shoot at the next unit. Continue from there. It has nothing to do with travel time on attacks, simply there is no overkill.

If you are trolling, well played.


He's correct. The AI isn't "smart". There is simply no delay between the projectile and the damage like there was in Brood War. In addition, no two actions take place simultaneously. The engine doesn't allow it, just as it doesn't allow it in WC3. Between any two given attacks compared one will always "go first", and since the damage from one tank attack is resolved before another begins, this gives the illusion that tanks have somehow gotten smarter. They've simply gotten faster.
Practical wisdom is the combination of moral will and moral skill
CynanMachae
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Canada1459 Posts
August 15 2010 08:25 GMT
#210
Very good OP and thanks for putting all these points together, I really agree with these. As a random player right now but a Zerg player in BW, I really wish I could play Zerg again but right now ZvP is the only enjoyable matchup.

Also this topic would be so much better if people would focus on the discussion instead of petty arguments...
Jang Yoon Chul hwaiting!
jamesltl
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia159 Posts
August 15 2010 08:29 GMT
#211
in T,whenever u got excess energy,u can spam it with mule while in zerg all the excess energy is kinda wasted unless u bring the queen into battlefield for healing.
here is my suggestion:
1. make the spawn larvae auto cast
OR
ur queen is able to inject multiple times to the hatch to use up all the excess energy.

p/s: i not sure if these suggestion is viable but i am agreeing that TvZ is imbalance while i am T player.
CellaWerra - "Holy Check"
Efemral
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia67 Posts
August 15 2010 08:32 GMT
#212
I started playing terran only because the two other people I know play Z and P and I wanted to compliment the mix. However, now that I've gotten to Platinum as Terran I want to change and try zerg. To me they look serious fun. Very creepy and cool. I also like the way you can store some larvae and instantly spawn a good counter army.

However - if Zerg really is UP and I just loose all the time to terran I am sure the game won't be fun anymore despite the fact that I dont realy play to win.
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
August 15 2010 08:36 GMT
#213
Whether tanks are "smarter" or "faster" they still act more intelligently, in that they don't overkill units and splash your own units excessively.



Non-sequitor:
I wonder if ZvZ would be less retarded if banelings did 34 damage instead of 35, or zerglings had 36 HP instead of 35. (I like the 36 HP method, they still die in the same # of hits to unupgraded marines, and the zealot weapon/carapace upgrade tension still exists.)
Probably wouldn't affect drone vs zergling matchups, as the zerglings likely already regen a hit point somewhere during the fight unless they are seriously surrounded by drones.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
August 15 2010 08:37 GMT
#214
On August 15 2010 16:47 purerythem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2010 16:44 hopewellsmash wrote:
good post. and yes i am a zerg player. i just want to add one thing. terran and protoss both have a caster which can take away energy (i find this very useful). why can't zerg have a caster to take away energy from units. i know its not going to solve most of the problems but i think it would make muta/sling/bling a little more effective being able to cast it on medivacs so they can't heal, and ghosts can't snipe(though i haven't seen this much in my ZvT then again i am mid plat). plus in late game thor 500mm cannon cannot be used on ultras. just my opinion



you could give the infestor some type of consume ability similar to the defiler.

Instead of consume i would give an energi-steal ability. Not W3/Dota style, but from friendly units, such as Queens and corruptors.

A lot of zergs complain about the Corruptors as their only use against a P army is battling Colossi, while a Viking can land and harass or fight after killing them, the corruptors can spit some snot on a couple of units and that's it. Also Queen's piling up energy is one of the most discussed issue since the early days of beta. And the infestor needing a buff.
3 problems "solved" at least almost, by one change
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
EvilMaishidon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States125 Posts
August 15 2010 08:40 GMT
#215
I guess i may have been wrong. however, Both solutions would work. marines dont overkill because they hit instantly. Marauders do because they have a travel time.

I'm going to create a thread about zerg balance, and actually testing the changes. I'm assuming I have the ability to complete most of them.
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
August 15 2010 08:44 GMT
#216
Perfect post. Seriously I have chosen to not comment on any tvz threads because I feel I haven't collect all my thoughts. But what you have written goes hand in hand with what I've been thinking since the release. It's not just one things, but a LIST of things that favor terran, which in turn has a DRAMATIC effect on overall outcome in the matchup.

I think another issue is the maps themselves. As much as I appreciate Blizzard trying to make better maps, they just don't get it. The scene needs professional map makers who understand this game and they need to be tested before being playable in tournaments, just like in SC1.
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
Orange Goblin
Profile Joined May 2010
218 Posts
August 15 2010 08:49 GMT
#217
On August 15 2010 17:37 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2010 16:47 purerythem wrote:
On August 15 2010 16:44 hopewellsmash wrote:
good post. and yes i am a zerg player. i just want to add one thing. terran and protoss both have a caster which can take away energy (i find this very useful). why can't zerg have a caster to take away energy from units. i know its not going to solve most of the problems but i think it would make muta/sling/bling a little more effective being able to cast it on medivacs so they can't heal, and ghosts can't snipe(though i haven't seen this much in my ZvT then again i am mid plat). plus in late game thor 500mm cannon cannot be used on ultras. just my opinion



you could give the infestor some type of consume ability similar to the defiler.

Instead of consume i would give an energi-steal ability. Not W3/Dota style, but from friendly units, such as Queens and corruptors.

A lot of zergs complain about the Corruptors as their only use against a P army is battling Colossi, while a Viking can land and harass or fight after killing them, the corruptors can spit some snot on a couple of units and that's it. Also Queen's piling up energy is one of the most discussed issue since the early days of beta. And the infestor needing a buff.
3 problems "solved" at least almost, by one change


This is actually an awesome idea.

I'm all for it.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 08:53:07
August 15 2010 08:49 GMT
#218
As a terran player I have to say: well written! I think there is something wrong early game, but lategame I just don't know what to do vs zerg. Ultralisks are so unbelievable strong. Broodlords with the combination of corrupters are so strong. Banelings are so good vs my bio army. But: this is my opinion. I am not a very good player so the things I whrite are not very representative.

Yesterday I played some zerg on the ladder (+-700 points diamond) and I killed his 3th base 3 (!) times. The guy kept on spamming ultra's and they dominated my tank-thor-helion force. Then he switched to broodlords + corruptors. I just can't foresee vikings when my opponent is spamming ultra's so by the time my vikings were out (so I could move out again), he had his 3th and 4th up. When a zerg got his third up he shits ultra's like zerglings. On maps like scrap station I can't take an island as my third (because of drops / muta's) so I have to take the 3th close to the watchtower. I don't know what those good terrans are doing but my mech army (besides the helions) is so slow. They nydus in my base and by the time I'm there they retreat and they just take out my third.

A few days back I played decemvrie on metapolis. He did a fast roach drop and he just kept harassing me with roaches. He was burrowing the whole time and he was delaying my expansions. If I moved my army to my 3th, he just dropped roaches in my main. By the time I had my third up and running, he had 5 bases. I just couldn't attack because my slow army was having a hard time to defend. You can't do a shit vs a zerg sitting on 5 bases.They make broodlords, and by the time you have vikings they are there with 10 ultra's ripping your (weakened by broodlords) mech army.

I kept on harassing decemvrie with helions. I killed at least 30 of his drones, but this was not a problem for him. With the new larvae mechanic zerg can rebuild their whole drone arsenal in 1 min. Some zergs advice me to do more helion drops. This is indeed possible but against mutalisks patrolling the whole map it's just damn hard. Another thing: you seriously need a raven if you move out with a mech army. Burrowed infestors can just take over 2/3 of your army in a few seconds.

I wonder how a terran can sit on more then 2 bases (especially on some maps) with mech. Drops / a nydus in your main base and you can move your whole army to there. You can build vikings, indeed, but people shouldn't underestimate ultralisks. You really need a high amount of tanks to fight them. You can sit on 2 bases, but good zergs will just expand 5 times.

Another note: bio. How can you go bio as a terran vs zerg. If I do it then I just die to gold players making just banelings. In my opinion you can't micro vs speedlings followed by banelings with speed.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
August 15 2010 08:57 GMT
#219
You may be the 5th best zerg, but I disagree entirely with your description of "viable" strategies

Zergs. I just list some here:
reapers,
hellions,
banshees,
fast expand,
mass bio/marines,
ghosts/nukes,
tank rush,
pure mech,
dropships,
vikings...


1. Yes, reapers are a definite problem on some maps, but on maps with large mains Z can adapt rather quickly by spreading creep and chasing away with speedlings. Maybe it's very different at the top levels.

2. Fast expand is rarely viable simply because Z will get his natural faster than T with the larva mechanic, T cannot afford to let Z get away with a free 14-15 hatch.

3. Mass bio/marines is countered extremely easily by banelings and lings. It is a terrible opener.

4. Ghosts/nukes - Not sure if a 500 gas investment into a ghost with a nuke is worth dealing basically some damage to a hatchery, since you can just pull drones. If scouted by Z, it's an autoloss for T, so it's another terrible opener. Ghosts late game however are another story.

5. Tank rush - another terrible opener. Early tank is nothing but a marauder with slightly higher damage and slighty higher HP, but at the cost of 225 gas at the minimum. Maybe I don't understand what this build is, but then please explain.

6. Pure Mech - Hellions should be merged with this build, to transition into mech, you need to have 2 bases, for which you need to do some damage vs Z's economy.

7. Dropships - really part of the bio play, can be countered relatively easily with queen and ling surrounds, also becomes terrible mid game after banelings and infestors come out.

8. Vikings - this really isn't much of an opener, quick viking to snipe overlords can be gotten with any build, so it doesn't deserve a separate entry.

Out of all 10 builds you listed, Hellions and Banshee are the only 2 really good builds that can be considered OP, especially since you almost can't tell which one is coming.
crimsonsentinel
Profile Joined April 2010
United States179 Posts
August 15 2010 09:13 GMT
#220
On August 15 2010 17:49 Dente wrote:
As a terran player I have to say: well written! I think there is something wrong early game, but lategame I just don't know what to do vs zerg. Ultralisks are so unbelievable strong.


Mr 200mm cannon would like to have a word with you. Yes, a quick switch may catch you off guard, but brood lords and ultras both take so long to build it gives you a lot of time to respond.
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