EPTZ v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 34
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iNty.sCream
Germany195 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
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Chunkybuddha
Canada347 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:13 Headshot wrote: The SCVs wont be auto targeted. You have to kill them individually. Auto-repair is OP and needs to be dealt with. Very well elaborated, thanks. 2-3 banelings is ALL you need early game against thor's scvs, 4 roaches and a couple lings can easily take down a thor with minimal losses without repair. Thor + 5-6 scvs is roughly the same as 6-8 lings, 4 roach, 4 banes. You can always get banelings out before a thor, before any risk if they actually if you are going up against a typical thor build. I just did the micro too on unit tester and the micro really isn't that difficult at all. In mass fights later on in the game, banelings are just fucking awesome no matter what, so banelings ARE viable against this scv repair. You can also use Mutalisks. Mutalisks is a much more difficult way because you need to use them not for attacking the thor, but for everything else. What I mean is, use your 4-6 mutas for harass, then the few you maker after, for hellions and harass. If you do thisTerran can't leave until 3 thors , by which you have enough banelings, enough roaches, and enough mutalisks to stop a push. Use mutalisks for hellions - same micro as bw mutas with marines, picking them off. At a slow but significant rate, scvs start to die with mutalisks too, AND thors target them, keeping your banes and roaches alive, letting them do their job of eliminating the big boys. This may seem way too difficult to do every game, but try it, a little micro goes a long way. For PF, targeting scvs is much easier (with ultralisk its a breeze, more difficult with marines). Afterwards a PF can be taken down quite easily with larger units, but why not abandon the PF and go after something else? You just killed his economy (all his scvs), why must you also destroy the PF? If all there is left is his PF and it must come down, then why not expand and let him deal with his 1 base sim city. If you have come to the point where you have to take down his specific PF and you just can't kill it with your army, you did something prior to that wrong. A couple of my friends who played bw in the golden days said zerg was terrible to deal with for a very long time, and they said almost everyone who played zerg wins. After some time, builds came out to combat zerg and things were back to normal without any balance changes what so ever. I don't know if they exaggerated any of it, but if any of that is true then that only further supports the fact this game is still way too young to be coming to conclusions, like this is overpowered etc. Actually thinking back, roughly two months ago, every Terran player complained about voidrays. Voidrays were AWWWFFULLL to deal with, and tons of players were autowinning in 6 minutes because of these things. Well, what did they do? Nothing - almost nothing, the nerf really didn't do that much, other than the obvious 3 stage charge lol. But after a video of tester explaining how to get rid of them, and 1-1-1 becoming much more popular, the voidray fad died out and you almost never hear about void ray imba. | ||
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Aborash
65 Posts
I just wanna talk about some facts in BW to Sc2 comparative: 1st, the Medivacs In Bw, your bioball, were M&M, marine and medics, if somehow you engage a zerg, and he manage to kill your marines, you retreat your medics, and zerg army will be able to pursuit and kill them. Now in Sc2, not only you cant kill the support, if you dont have air attacking units, (so they can safely arrive base), so next battle you will face again the same medivacs, so enemy only need to spend resources in marines/marauders, but the fact is that with medivacs, he also gain sight range, you can see above cliffs/ramps, and also you can save you 8 poor marines when they get surrounded suddenly by roachs/banelings/lings, and also none knows if you go for a front assault, cuz the infinite stimpack/heal, or you're gonna sneak some units in one Medivac and make some harras on the drone line. 2nd, Tanks Tier. In Bw, Tanks were Tier 2.5 units, you need to build a barrack, then a Factory and finally, a Machine Shop. In Sc2, Tanks are Tier 2 units, you build a Barrack, start building a Factory an at the same time, you start building a Tech Lab at you Barrack, and swap as soon as you finish your Factory. BAM! Tier 2.5 to Tier 2. 3rd, Overlords. In Bw, your Overlords were be able to detect invis units. In Sc2, your Overlords are unable to detect invis units. 4th, Parasite vs Changeling. In Bw, your fast, long range/sight queen were be able to cast parasite, so in the worst scenary enemy has to choose to kill that unit or let it alive, letting you know his army composition. Otherwise he must get medics, and research restoration. In Sc2, you get Changeling. Great if at least blizz let you choose in which unit will he morph, instead of let a single marine try to become near 10 marauders. 5th, bunkers. In BW, if you want to defend a choke point, or a ramp, you need to invest money on a bunker, so more money on defense translate in less money for atack. In Sc2, if you want to defend a choke point, or a ramp, you build a bunker, and as soon as it become unnecessary, you salvage it, returning all defensive investment you make, so you can invest in more attack units. May be I'm totally wrong, but seems like Terran got perfect synergy with all his units/skills (marines/marauders, good against light/good against armored + Stimpac share skill + Heal) or (ghost, stealth + Emp to detect and destroy observers), and really usefull skills, while Zerg, in the other hand, only got really situational spells, Neural Parasite, Corruption... | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
-no dark swarm. In BW dark swarm was the late-game equalizer, the primary tool zerg had for mitigating the terran death ball. Now there's no dark swarm to keep the terran ball in check, and so it just keeps getting stronger and stronger until 200/200 where it seems nearly impossible to stop. -no persistent and/or ranged AOE damage. The only two sources of AOE damage are banelings, which are one-time use, and ultras, which are hive and melee only. BW had lurkers, which gave zerg a defensive unit option for the mid-game. Good lurker use let zerg get up a 3rd and get to hive before the terran death ball became too big (it could still get too big if you waited too long to get hive though). In SC2, the only option is banelings, which are not cost effective AT ALL vs mech, making them a horrible use of gas. SC2 zerg has no good AOE, meanwhile terran have siege tanks and protoss have colossus, both excellent long-range AOE attackers. -spine crawlers give no defender advantage compared to sunken colonies. In BW, when you saw an M&M force move out of terran's nat, you had time to react by making sunken colonies, which would finish just as the M&M arrived, if not before. You can't do that in SC2; if you wait until you see hellions roast your scouting ling before placing crawlers, the crawlers won't be up in time, and you'll lose your drones. This forces you to pre-build crawlers anytime you see a rax w/ tech lab (reapers), or a factory w/reactor (hellions). This is bad because if terran just expands, or makes banshees/vikings/etc. then your crawlers are essentially wasted money and now you're behind in economy. edit: this one could possibly be solved with different and bigger maps, giving zerg enough time to react by putting down crawlers (and actually having them finish in time). | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:18 afiddy wrote: I don't think people are realizing the importance of having a unit that is ranged and can shoot air at low tier tech. My whole deal with zerg now, is that I have to tech to lair just to get a stable unit that can shoot air units. I think some things would change if hydralisks were weakened a bit, made to be 75/25 again and also put back at low tier. Then switching roaches to lair tech and given back their armor. I feel the same way. I've always thought that hydra should be tier 1.5, cost 75/25/1 and have its power adjusted appropriately. Meanwhile have the roach moved to lair tech, make it cost 100/50/2 and beef it up some more. Right now when I compare the stalker to the hydra, I'm just confounded as to how they put both of those units as they are in the same game. Hydra - double the DPS of stalker, negligibly cheaper (gas is way more important than minerals) Stalker - Twice as much life, 1 armor, moves faster (off creep), higher range (until the expensive hydra up), lower tech, blink ability. | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
On August 17 2010 04:24 Krigwin wrote: The whole "T has more options" problem over Z seems to stem from this (interchangeable) tech lab system, which honestly baffles me when you compare it to the Z's system of "get a new building for every single unit". For example, a T just needs to get a tech on his barracks and he gets access to two new units, rauder and reaper. For Zerg to get access to either bling or roach, they need to get two separate new buildings, both of which cost additional time and gas, and then they need to get upgrades for those units if they plan on using them (which all cost a lot more than 50/50 conc shells). A 1/1/1 T has access to every single unit in the game for T except ghosts and BCs and since tech labs are interchangeable you can do goofy stuff like rushing banshees, and no T unit except maybe the siege tank is reliant on getting upgrades for just their basic usage, they are merely vastly improved once you get each unit's specific upgrade (preigniter, reaper speed, banshee cloak). Meanwhile, let's take the equivalent of a 1/1/1 for Zerg (pool, lair, and infestor pit). Z has access to only 5 units, three of which are drone queen and overlord. Every single zerg unit aside from those three are a separate and different investment that costs time and gas even when you don't factor in that most of them are useless until you get their upgrades. A Z going 1hatch muta for instance can't easily transition into roach hydra, whereas a T can use hellions to harass and then transition that factory into tank/thor production and not have lost anything except the cost of the hellions. This also adds to the difficulty of scouting. Even when you manage to get your sac ovie into the guy's base past the rines and see that he's going 1/1/1, that doesn't really tell you for sure if he's going hellion harass or banshee rush or planning a doom drop. Whereas if the T player simply scans a Z and sees the baneling nest, he knows for a fact the Z is getting banelings, or same with mutas, or hydras, or any Z unit. T has so much more flexibility over Z it's not just an imbalanced matchup, it's Z being a poorly designed race while T is a perfectly polished one. This clearly isn't a case of just T being the campaign race so it's had more time to be worked on than the other races, since P is also a well designed race in comparison to Z. So this is a Zerg-specific problem. You have to open your mind a little here - The mechanics of zerg is that you should build 1 building and then you have access to x units based on lava, the lava is what separates T from Z not the buildings because T need x buildings plus the addons to get the units where as Z needs X lava plus a single building to get the units.... for sure it 'seems' incorrect like most things T has (PF's lifting bases, free bunkers, imba splash) but the production side really is a core trait to the race and shouldn't be altered. My only complaint is that we don't have enough early units/hard counters to break a base as T's block is so strong and they have many diverse and insane units for harrasing with the 2 shottings bansee and reaper makes it hard to micro the important drones so we can spend the lava on real units.... but even then the number of splashing units T has is pretty insane and requires us to have even more lava to deal with the heavy losses which doesn't seem possible at the moment. | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
Its much harder to mess up the game with terran or protoss because you still have a solid walloff and can recover. Ok it happens that some lings slip through your wall but they can usually be dealt with. | ||
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Brokengamer
Philippines116 Posts
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imbecile
563 Posts
Now that the game is out I don't complain anymore, although nothing has changed really. But it's not much use. You gotta play now. And in most replays I have seen, Zerg didn't even explore the few options they have. So to all the good Zerg players: go crazy and try stuff, this is the time where heroes are made. You can be the next savior. I can't. I'm just decent. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On August 17 2010 03:02 Rabiator wrote: (1) You only counter Mutalisks with Thors where the Thors actually are and - having the mobility advantage - you would be dumb to attack spots where there are Thors with Mutalisks. Terrans do NOT want to build Thors just to stand around in their base and look pretty. If you make turrets useless even more what are they built for? Just for detection? Allow me a short ROFL there ... (2) The primary function of a bunker is to serve as a defensive position, thus it is very very likely that it will get killed. I really would like to see an end to this endless mantra about bunkers being free. In any case it is needs to be compared to Spine / Spore crawlers being able to uproot themselves and plant themselves somewhere else. Bunker salvage needs to stay at 100% and its not the Terrans fault that Zerg are too lazy / stupid to bring some base defenses (which could increase their army supply above 200) to support a big attack OR to even to control some paths against small harrassing forces (like Reapers or Hellions) who might want to bypass your forces for harrassing. (3) Initial Muta harrass? What does that have to do with getting burrow? Only about one in a thousand of all Zerg players gets burrow ever in their games. It is not a question of rushing it and certainly burrowing claws only makes sense when you have a few Roaches out already. (4) I am sorry, but I think it might ruin TvP if you have to counter Void Rays with Vikings. As soon as these are charged up - and since they can shoot while moving - you need a slight advantage in range to be able to outmicro. In any case the range doesnt really affect TvZ, so I dont see a point. (5) Mutalisks are NOT the only solution to cracking a line of sieged tanks. I think i already mentioned TLO in the Day[9] daily, where he made Sean gulp with the statement that Ultralisks are quite good ... and since then many Zerg have started making this - until that time - rarely ever built unit. TLO even mentioned the way to use them - Ultras first and then rush in the swarm, but I guess the denial from some prominent Zerg players (at the time of that daily there had already been some "Terran is IMBA and we tried everything" statement from Asia) stops their fanboys from learning this strategy from a not so good european. The real "problem" of Terran mech isnt the siege tanks, but rather the Hellions which can screw up the Zerg economy very very early on, so please stop the mantra about smart firing or get air superiority and Brood Lords. Sorry took me so long to reply to this, I haven't gotten a chance to reread this thread until today. (1) Just a quick recap I stated, turrets needed a 20% decrease in attack speed. I can't believe you are complaining about having to keep 1 thor in your base to defend against muta harass. Imagine that, the terran in his base defending from a zerg's attack. Welcome to the world of zerg buddy, where you spend your whole game in your base defending against the terran's 8-10 harassment options. News flash for you: It's okay to give the zerg a timing window to attack every now and then, you don't have to hog all the timing attacks for yourself you know. With a 20% attack rate decrease for turrets, the zerg at least would have a CHANCE to do some damage with their harass (heaven forbid) (2) Um we aren't talking about late game 200/200 armies here. We are talking about early game when terran's don't have to hesitate on spending cash for defense because they can just receive a full 100% refund when their army is large enough to take over the role. Your argument of "Bunkers usually die before you can salvage them anyways" is meaningless. Maybe they do die before you have the chance to salvage them, your point? A dead bunker has absolutely no bearing on the argument of whether you should receive full or partial refunds for salvage, your point is moot. Here's a quick reality check: getting 75 minerals in return for a no longer needed bunker that you paid 100 for in early game is still an extremely good deal. I really hope blizzard fixes this so I can see terrans like yourself QQ over 25 lost minerals (its the end of the world!) (3) Never said anything about initial muta harass, you obviously misread my post. The 3rd point was about changing stim to 100/100 to 150/150 and your counter argument was if they did this burrow would have to be changed to 150/150 as well to compensate (you can't possibly be serious). Now your argument is only one in a thousand zerg players gets burrow and certainly no one rushes it. Geeze I wonder why burrow is hardly seen anymore... is it because it costs too much for too little return? Stim should be 150/150 because it's a powerful ability that stays useful for the entire game. Burrow should be a cheap upgrade (50/50) so we can see more zerg players rushing to it while it's still viable (before ravens come into play and tunneling claws becomes less effective). Just the fact that you state how often you see burrow used it a clear indicator that you yourself even admit it's an investment with little reward at the moment (thus few players utilizing it). (4) Quick recap on point 4, I suggested lowering viking range to 7 then adding an upgrade at starport tech lab for +2 range for 150/150. Now you are stating that this might have an adverse effect on PvT because void rays would be hard to counter without full range on your vikings. This is just an example of a terran player being spoiled, however, because A) you could just use marines to hold off the the void rays until the range upgrade finishes and B) once the range upgrade finished you would be back to the status quo. Just scout and prepare the upgrade in advanced. Sorry but you're just spoiled with the flexibility of the terran tech tree. Terran wouldn't know commitment to a tech path if it hit them in the face. Yes, the viking range is an issue in TvZ. Against overlords it can be annoying, albeit bearable. The problem is terran has to commit too little to have air superiority in the match up. I think muta harass should have a timing window that forces the terran player to have to react and not just LOL at, as they see 600/600 spent on muta disintegrate in a matter of seconds. This isn't the only issue I have with viking range however. Other than sniping overlords and helping to defend form muta harass at home, the range works extremely when guarding your siege tanks from mutalisks and broodlords while on the battle field. Right now there is too much flexibility between the air and ground superiority and I feel as if terrans should have to make more of a commitment if they want to control the air. (5) You're absolutely right about mutalisks not being the only option in dealing with siege tank lines. I have way more of problem with being sieged than with hellion harassed. A proper sim city of buildings and spine crawlers can effectively deal with any hellion harass early on. Once the terran army reaches critical mass, the problem occurs where there is too much range along with too much splash damage. I don't have a problem with thors because I think a simple neural parasite duration buff would be the key to countering any thor play. Vikings have awesome range but I believe that range should be at a cost, so I've addressed this issue already. Siege tanks are a bit trickier because their range along with their attack efficiency is just too brutal when trying to engage. To me, changing the attack animation to allow for overkill would be a subtle tweak that would give zerg opponents a chance to micro against a terran mech ball instead of just melting instantaneously upon engaging. You are right, things like ultralisk play and tunneling roaches are effective strategies for dealing with this. The bottom line is, some units are just too powerful to allow to have perfect attack AI. No it's not dumbing down the system back to 1998. It's just putting siege tanks on par with other units to make them easier to deal with in critical mass. EDIT: Better maps would alleviate a great deal of this issue as well but I think someone with more knowledge in map making would have to elaborate on this. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 17 2010 09:00 kidcrash wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 17 2010 03:02 Rabiator wrote: (1) You only counter Mutalisks with Thors where the Thors actually are and - having the mobility advantage - you would be dumb to attack spots where there are Thors with Mutalisks. Terrans do NOT want to build Thors just to stand around in their base and look pretty. If you make turrets useless even more what are they built for? Just for detection? Allow me a short ROFL there ... (2) The primary function of a bunker is to serve as a defensive position, thus it is very very likely that it will get killed. I really would like to see an end to this endless mantra about bunkers being free. In any case it is needs to be compared to Spine / Spore crawlers being able to uproot themselves and plant themselves somewhere else. Bunker salvage needs to stay at 100% and its not the Terrans fault that Zerg are too lazy / stupid to bring some base defenses (which could increase their army supply above 200) to support a big attack OR to even to control some paths against small harrassing forces (like Reapers or Hellions) who might want to bypass your forces for harrassing. (3) Initial Muta harrass? What does that have to do with getting burrow? Only about one in a thousand of all Zerg players gets burrow ever in their games. It is not a question of rushing it and certainly burrowing claws only makes sense when you have a few Roaches out already. (4) I am sorry, but I think it might ruin TvP if you have to counter Void Rays with Vikings. As soon as these are charged up - and since they can shoot while moving - you need a slight advantage in range to be able to outmicro. In any case the range doesnt really affect TvZ, so I dont see a point. (5) Mutalisks are NOT the only solution to cracking a line of sieged tanks. I think i already mentioned TLO in the Day[9] daily, where he made Sean gulp with the statement that Ultralisks are quite good ... and since then many Zerg have started making this - until that time - rarely ever built unit. TLO even mentioned the way to use them - Ultras first and then rush in the swarm, but I guess the denial from some prominent Zerg players (at the time of that daily there had already been some "Terran is IMBA and we tried everything" statement from Asia) stops their fanboys from learning this strategy from a not so good european. The real "problem" of Terran mech isnt the siege tanks, but rather the Hellions which can screw up the Zerg economy very very early on, so please stop the mantra about smart firing or get air superiority and Brood Lords. Sorry took me so long to reply to this, I haven't gotten a chance to reread this thread until today. (1) Just a quick recap I stated, turrets needed a 20% decrease in attack speed. I can't believe you are complaining about having to keep 1 thor in your base to defend against muta harass. Imagine that, the terran in his base defending from a zerg's attack. Welcome to the world of zerg buddy, where you spend your whole game in your base defending against the terran's 8-10 harassment options. News flash for you: It's okay to give the zerg a timing window to attack every now and then, you don't have to hog all the timing attacks for yourself you know. With a 20% attack rate decrease for turrets, the zerg at least would have a CHANCE to do some damage with their harass (heaven forbid) (2) Um we aren't talking about late game 200/200 armies here. We are talking about early game when terran's don't have to hesitate on spending cash for defense because they can just receive a full 100% refund when their army is large enough to take over the role. Your argument of "Bunkers usually die before you can salvage them anyways" is meaningless. Maybe they do die before you have the chance to salvage them, your point? A dead bunker has absolutely no bearing on the argument of whether you should receive full or partial refunds for salvage, your point is moot. Here's a quick reality check: getting 75 minerals in return for a no longer needed bunker that you paid 100 for in early game is still an extremely good deal. I really hope blizzard fixes this so I can see terrans like yourself QQ over 25 lost minerals (its the end of the world!) (3) Never said anything about initial muta harass, you obviously misread my post. The 3rd point was about changing stim to 100/100 to 150/150 and your counter argument was if they did this burrow would have to be changed to 150/150 as well to compensate (you can't possibly be serious). Now your argument is only one in a thousand zerg players gets burrow and certainly no one rushes it. Geeze I wonder why burrow is hardly seen anymore... is it because it costs too much for too little return? Stim should be 150/150 because it's a powerful ability that stays useful for the entire game. Burrow should be a cheap upgrade (50/50) so we can see more zerg players rushing to it while it's still viable (before ravens come into play and tunneling claws becomes less effective). Just the fact that you state how often you see burrow used it a clear indicator that you yourself even admit it's an investment with little reward at the moment (thus few players utilizing it). (4) Quick recap on point 4, I suggested lowering viking range to 7 then adding an upgrade at starport tech lab for +2 range for 150/150. Now you are stating that this might have an adverse effect on PvT because void rays would be hard to counter without full range on your vikings. This is just an example of a terran player being spoiled, however, because A) you could just use marines to hold off the the void rays until the range upgrade finishes and B) once the range upgrade finished you would be back to the status quo. Just scout and prepare the upgrade in advanced. Sorry but you're just spoiled with the flexibility of the terran tech tree. Terran wouldn't know commitment to a tech path if it hit them in the face. Yes, the viking range is an issue in TvZ. Against overlords it can be annoying, albeit bearable. The problem is terran has to commit too little to have air superiority in the match up. I think muta harass should have a timing window that forces the terran player to have to react and not just LOL at, as they see 600/600 spent on muta disintegrate in a matter of seconds. This isn't the only issue I have with viking range however. Other than sniping overlords and helping to defend form muta harass at home, the range works extremely when guarding your siege tanks from mutalisks and broodlords while on the battle field. Right now there is too much flexibility between the air and ground superiority and I feel as if terrans should have to make more of a commitment if they want to control the air. (5) You're absolutely right about mutalisks not being the only option in dealing with siege tank lines. I have way more of problem with being sieged than with hellion harassed. A proper sim city of buildings and spine crawlers can effectively deal with any hellion harass early on. Once the terran army reaches critical mass, the problem occurs where there is too much range along with too much splash damage. I don't have a problem with thors because I think a simple neural parasite duration buff would be the key to countering any thor play. Vikings have awesome range but I believe that range should be at a cost, so I've addressed this issue already. Siege tanks are a bit trickier because their range along with their attack efficiency is just too brutal when trying to engage. To me, changing the attack animation to allow for overkill would be a subtle tweak that would give zerg opponents a chance to micro against a terran mech ball instead of just melting instantaneously upon engaging. You are right, things like ultralisk play and tunneling roaches are effective strategies for dealing with this. The bottom line is, some units are just too powerful to allow to have perfect attack AI. No it's not dumbing down the system back to 1998. It's just putting siege tanks on par with other units to make them easier to deal with in critical mass. EDIT: Better maps would alleviate a great deal of this issue as well but I think someone with more knowledge in map making would have to elaborate on this. Good post. I agree it seems this terran wants every single advantage possible instead of having to deal with problems that other races experience. Weird huh? | ||
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
The positive thing is that this is really getting out there now. I'm sure blizz will do something soon | ||
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
I am missing one topic here though and it is that we NEED a new unit, but we really need to figure out just what we need. It would really do us some justice, it just is not fun enough to play zerg, we don´t have ANY gimmicky cool fancy units and whatever stats changes there are I`ll still be pretty bored playing Zerg... thus I introduce to you THE MINILISK It should be built from the hatchery after you get for example roach warren(with some extra features also), cost 50/50(be 1 supply!!) be something like a weaker roach(give some plus vs armoured as a first before Ultralisk?) but with some weakish anti air also to help your queens in need WE NEED THIS maybe also with that you should be able to use the queens energy(25 or so) to queue up more than 1 at the same time from the hatchery if you want to build them faster, a perfect FUN way to use up excess energy on Queens on a fun gimmicky unit, just a great way to neglect you missing the inject larva from time to time. What else I want to give this unit is a gimmicky skill that will solve the other of our god damn problem which is early game scouting. Thus I want to give it the ability to move while burrowed which you get automatically(or if too imba just upgrade each unit for 25/25 or a general cheap upgrade at roach warren at Tier 1) to be able to scout walled in people this by adding an ability to dig under cliffs. Now that would be a for me VERY fun not overpowered unit that will help you somewhat against tough banshee/void ray rushes if you have some spare energy on a queen also help you get rid of all the excess energy on a queen and solve the scout problem for a small cost at that. In addition it would be really cool unit mid game which would give some insteresting tactics and real harassment to the Zerg, or even a cheese cool pressure build in the beginning that actually the opponents have to take into consideration. As a unit to mass when you have so many queens with full energy and as it only takes 1 supply midgame it would be great and we need at least one 1 supply unit. So the major points of it... Give us a fun unit to give us fun diverse strategies early-mid game. Give us some early anti air in addition to the queen which we can use in dire need vs banshee rush and Void Ray rush which is allowed to be built by spending some energy of the queen if there is something else being upgraded/built in the Hatchery which there usually is either to get Lair or Queens vs harass. Give us the ability to scout and not die to many of the hidden pushes that we can´t deal with appropriately at the moment. A way to use excess built up energy of the Queen to give its mechanic some forgiveness and add a fun mechanic to Hatcheries that are not used for anything but making more larva Should not be imba or break any matchup. As a Zerg I want to be able to at least do SOMETHING fun, please give us that. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On August 16 2010 11:52 Phrost wrote: My other big peeve is that Queens are built from the hatchery. When most players do their awesome pool/gas builds they have ~ 100 gas (or close to that) once the pool pops. This is 99% of the time spent on zergling speed and a Queen gets queued up. Once the queen is done then you have the option of getting a lair. Now I'm not really sure if you can pass up a Queen but it seems silly that you don't really have a good choice to get a faster lair. It's like as if the factory required an engineering bay as well as a barracks to build or the starport required an armory. The tech buildings would take so much longer to build and you really don't have a good way around it. I think that if Queens were build from larva rather than spawned from a hatchery it would alievate some of the early pressure to get a faster lair because you would have the option of getting a lair or getting an upgrade for your zerglings (or roaches if they want to move that to tier 1). This could lead to faster mutalisk harass or hydralisk play and force the other races to respond appropriately and I think that is a good idea because it will finally give Zerg the ability to really be aggressive early game without having to resort to a relatively terrible all-in or playing on the other players faults (bad wall-ins, etc). The terrans in order to catchup to the other macro mechanics need their orbital command. In a normal build order meaning while it is upgrading they can't make scv's. Not to say this is comparable or not it is something to mention. Normal build for terran is 10 depo 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC. If you want to to build your factory the moment your rax is done then not only do you have to build your gas before the rax but you have to delay the OC you can't have an extremally fast factory and OC. IMO this is comparable to zerg getting gas before pool as you can choose to use the 100 gas you obtain from this to get ling speed or your lair but not both simultaneously. As for the queen if you go for the fast lair can build it at your FE. As it should finish before the lair finishes morphing. Not that I am saying you are incorrect as the queen is supposed to be the early AA for the zerg. In a 2v2 just the other day I beat 4 Vrays with 3 queens. (Yes, transfuse was involved and when the next 3 Vrays showed up well my ally was ready to support me with 12 marines. Needless to say that paticular toss opponent was economy fucked as he killed next to nothing with 7 VRays.) Was spawning my second one already when I noticed incoming rays with a scouting ling and before they got to my base a third queen had spawned. This would work out alot better if they spawned from larvae but for balance blizzard may decide that since you can now spawn queens easier to put a limit on how many you can have. Possibly something like 1-2 for every hatchery/lair/hive you have. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
1 - I see this as coming up primarily due to the fact that mech has superseded bio as the primary unit composition against zerg; against mech Terrans in SC1, Lurkers and Sunkens were not nearly as helpful as they are against bio. And I don't think bio is actually a problem if you take away zerg's early-game economic disadvantage from having to take a late natural. 2 - A lot of zerg's flexibility is lost because of the lack of 2 quick gases--it's hard to build flexible builds when in some cases you need to even wait until after your lair to take your natural. If you fix the early game to allow for hatch-first builds, a lot of flexibility should get opened up for the Zerg midgame. 3 - Again, this is pretty much exclusive to bio, and if Terran didn't go into the midgame with such a large advantage, bio would not be as strong as it is. 4 - This parallels SC1 TvP. A Terran that is too heavy on vultures vs. a Zealot/Dragoon composition can fall back on mines, while a Terran that is too heavy on Tanks can fall back on more defensive terrain. It's a good observation, but it's not definitively a balance issue; it's just a qualitative observation about how unit interactions are structured. 5 - It bears noting that Battlecruisers got a drastic cost-effectiveness increase compared to SC1 across the board, not just vs zerg (I think Blizzard really wants them to be viable), but otherwise I agree with this point. Especially with regard to zerglings. 6 - I think the issue of clumped-up units can be mitigated a bit, but 2 is interesting, and I've been saying since day 1 that the tank should be treated as a projectile-firing unit. On August 16 2010 11:52 Phrost wrote: My other big peeve is that Queens are built from the hatchery. When most players do their awesome pool/gas builds they have ~ 100 gas (or close to that) once the pool pops. This is 99% of the time spent on zergling speed and a Queen gets queued up. Once the queen is done then you have the option of getting a lair. Now I'm not really sure if you can pass up a Queen but it seems silly that you don't really have a good choice to get a faster lair. It's like as if the factory required an engineering bay as well as a barracks to build or the starport required an armory. The tech buildings would take so much longer to build and you really don't have a good way around it. I think that if Queens were build from larva rather than spawned from a hatchery it would alievate some of the early pressure to get a faster lair because you would have the option of getting a lair or getting an upgrade for your zerglings (or roaches if they want to move that to tier 1). This could lead to faster mutalisk harass or hydralisk play and force the other races to respond appropriately and I think that is a good idea because it will finally give Zerg the ability to really be aggressive early game without having to resort to a relatively terrible all-in or playing on the other players faults (bad wall-ins, etc). This is another issue that I think gets solved if economic hatch-first builds become viable. The fact that you can concurrently build your queen and lair when you have 2 hatches up very quickly speeds up your teching a lot. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
its not dumbing down AI because many units in the game already have it, yet the one unit that needs it for balence doesn't. and thats the seige tank though there was one stage (correct me if im wrong) where tanks hit the side of units reducing the damage of it and all the T players QQ'd and it was fixed. us zerg players were happy that change was made for the better of the game. then roaches were nerfed to oblivion, yet us zerg players accepted the imbalance of the roaches before the patch. Us zerg players accepted some changes that weakened our race but no more. we have been nerfed enough and have not recieved a useful buff in so long. yet all you T players say we are QQing. yet did we not accept your qqing earlier when you winge'd about mass roaches and your tanks not working properly? and balancing occured from it? Yet when its time for Zerg to whine a bit its not allowed? your allowed to bring up balance issues but we arent? treat people how you want to be treated. Terran is allowed to have the ability to abuse all the gimicks in the game so far yet heaven forbid zerg get something that could cause terrans to actually actively scout and prepare? but wait of course, us zerg players have the legendary nydus worm to solve our problems, something that waste minerals and gas and has little return unless the player we use it against we could have beaten anyway even if we did not use it. and to those who say the games been out for only a month, remember we had beta since may. if my math is correct, thats more then a month QQ RAGE OVER! lol | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On August 16 2010 12:57 Logo wrote: Overall this seems like only a moderate improvement in economy in comparison to what Terrans get especially. I'm not trying to bash the MULE or anything as I don't really find it problematic, but bear with me for a second. Each mule is 270 extra mined resoucres straight up. Sure the resources don't come from thin air, but they do come out as a bonus. This is a rippling forward bonus, the longer the game goes on the more these MULES add up. Meanwhile what happens on the zerg end? They still are only saving the same 300 resources over building additional hatcheries. So what I think is a problem is that the Zerg's economy is relatively unchanged from BW. They save some additional resources by not having to build additional hatcheries, but it's a one time effect. Meanwhile the Terran's macro mechanic compounds and continuously gets better. The longer the game the MORE you get from that investment into MULES vs an investment into other areas because mules bring you straight up resources vs increased production capabilities and MULES super saturate bases. Think about it even from the supply drop standpoint (because it's easier to work out). Each supply drop from an orbital command saves 100 resources flat out so the more times you get to use the oribtal command the more resources you save. Meanwhile with Queens you're not continuously saving resources, you just save on the initial investment. Protoss, which I haven't talked about, are kinda in a weird area. They don't save with their mechanic, but they indirectly do by having more stuff sooner. I don't really know how to break that down though. The other important thing about mules is they're 0 pop. While a Zerg eventually has to stop making workers to have a sizable army a Terran can use their macro mechanic indefinitely regardless of their current population. Yes the mule does give you a better investment as the game moves on in theory. But the main problem zergs tend to have a problem with is mech. Which is limited not by minerals but by gas. After going mech eventually mules will stop being used so they can be saved for scanning purposes. Say a huge FG goes off that kills a lot of the terrans hellions or terran is getting tierd of muta harass while he is trying to push out. Then I see mules coming back to the equation so the production on other stuff doesn't slow down while they are shitting out alot of turrets. As for the mule taking up supply. I would have no problem with this. It could even be done this way. For every 50 energy a OC has. The terrans have 1 supply. Basically that means if your current supply is 199/200 with 2 full energy OC's then after 2 scans/mules your total supply would be 197/200 (or 195/200 if mules were considered 2 supply) this would entice terrans to actually keep up with mules even if they did not need it as energy builds up they would get closer to being supply blocked. And their OC would not gain energy at 200/200. This would allow zerg armies to be larger than terran armies if the terran depended alot on having scans or mules in reserve. As a terran player a change of this magnitude would be ok with me. | ||
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Prophecy3
Canada223 Posts
Epic post, classy and hilarious. Agree with you except for siege tank AI. I think those who played Early BETA (pre-patch 9) that siege focused Mech was completely useless because of BW AI. Terran may be too cohesive an army in many directions, but you simply cannot, and i'll restate.. CANNOT Remove overkill AI. the 100% targeting accuracy I think could be done away with. I also fail to see how it would put tanks 'on par' with other units? Tank's are already close to if not the most valuable and important unit in the Terran arsenal. Terran units get shredded when forces do finally close the distance and engage in your face, The tanks standoff ability is basically what allows Terran Mech to be Viable at all.. I will have to somewhat agree that viking range is pretty rediculous. But so is air mechanics.. They're not fucking Wraiths anymore, there's no crazy 'viking micro' they're slow and made of paper. without that range they're as good as dead. Couple fixes for this I think however; +sight range. +speed, -Range -Range +proper flight mechanics. simply making a+2 range upgrade (which I could go along with) leaving the mechanics as they are I think would be the end of useful early viking play.. Wish there was BETA server still up so changes could be tested extensively by the community top to bottom. | ||
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Prophecy3
Canada223 Posts
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