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10387 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:08 BlasiuS wrote:
-no persistent and/or ranged AOE damage. The only two sources of AOE damage are banelings, which are one-time use, and ultras, which are hive and melee only. BW had lurkers, which gave zerg a defensive unit option for the mid-game. Good lurker use let zerg get up a 3rd and get to hive before the terran death ball became too big (it could still get too big if you waited too long to get hive though). In SC2, the only option is banelings, which are not cost effective AT ALL vs mech, making them a horrible use of gas. SC2 zerg has no good AOE, meanwhile terran have siege tanks and protoss have colossus, both excellent long-range AOE attackers.
Haha, this is basically true in Vanilla SC TvZ. Terran can't be aggressive due to no medics and Mutas keep the Terran in the base a lot longer due to having to just put up a lot more turrets, but once the terran deathball gets out and rolling, fuckin massive amounts of Marine/Firebat plus some tanks would absolutely smash through anything Zerg had, even if there was Dark Swarm (Firebats raped lol). Plague + Swarm or Plague/Muta/Gaurd sufficed as a good counter in my experiences.
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Diamond Zerg, blah blah w/e
I agree with most of the points made in this thread so far.
I think zergs problems could be solved by adding a couple new units. The lack of variety makes the game so robotic!
1) Spider type with the ability to pull a non massive air unit to the ground like an inverse phoenix gravitation beam.
Obv teir 1.5,
Ground attack only with low damage, bonus to light.
2) Ant lion type unit for defense
Leaves a visible cone off creep, no cone on creep
The idea here is for it to capture ground targets and hold them while dealing damage. Needs an autocast/player activated ability with cooldown. Let the target even shoot while in the effect, but it has to unsiege tanks.
Upgradeable to move while burrowed.
The idea here is to provide some danger for low amounts of units running around zerg creep early game. I'd even go as far as having it be T1.5 with burrow already available and no attack unburrowed. Basically a purely defensive lurker type.
T3 upgrade for better damage, etc that gives some reason to keep them around late in the game.
3) Baneling howitzer. Will never happen but I so want one.
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On August 17 2010 11:29 Glox wrote:
3) Baneling howitzer. Will never happen but I so want one.
I can completely agree that although it would never happen, it would be awesome. Imagine if there was an upgrade so broodlords fired banelings? It would be like a seige tank! mmm.
Back on topic, if any one wants to see IdrA get destroyed by Silver, there are two VODs on Husky's channel.
Game 1
Game 2
I wouldn't say that it was IdrA's best game, especially because he was pretty upset to just be playing Terran. But I think that we can agree that IdrA is an insane zerg player, and got shut down pretty hard.
Game overview:
+ Show Spoiler +In game 1 IdrA lost really hard to a push with marines, hellions, thors and seige tanks. He tried to go into Silver's base and harass in the meantime with 8 mutas but was shut down hard by 2 turrets.
In game 2 Silver rushed a drop on IdrA's natural with 4 marines and a seige tank which destroyed the static D IdrA put up. IdrA attempted a counter attack on Silver with roaches but got once again shut down by a front door defended by seige tanks
I think that the general reason, similar to my last post in this thread, is that the lair tech was up far too late. If it was up earlier then IdrA could have gotten overlord drop or mutas faster, which would have been cruicial. Whether this is due to IdrA's playstyle or a general imbalance is debatable.
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On August 17 2010 11:14 Prophecy3 wrote:
@kidcrash
Epic post, classy and hilarious. Agree with you except for siege tank AI. I think those who played Early BETA (pre-patch 9) that siege focused Mech was completely useless because of BW AI.
Terran may be too cohesive an army in many directions, but you simply cannot, and i'll restate.. CANNOT Remove overkill AI. the 100% targeting accuracy I think could be done away with. I also fail to see how it would put tanks 'on par' with other units?
Tank's are already close to if not the most valuable and important unit in the Terran arsenal. Terran units get shredded when forces do finally close the distance and engage in your face, The tanks standoff ability is basically what allows Terran Mech to be Viable at all..
I will have to somewhat agree that viking range is pretty rediculous. But so is air mechanics.. They're not fucking Wraiths anymore, there's no crazy 'viking micro' they're slow and made of paper. without that range they're as good as dead. Couple fixes for this I think however;
+sight range. +speed, -Range
-Range +proper flight mechanics.
simply making a+2 range upgrade (which I could go along with) leaving the mechanics as they are I think would be the end of useful early viking play.. Wish there was BETA server still up so changes could be tested extensively by the community top to bottom.
Good points, I always felt like air mechanics were a bit stiff in the micro department. The thing is, when we asked for better air mechanics in beta what we got was a moving shot phoenix, which wasn't really what we expected. It gets the job done, but proves that they most likely won't address the issue of some air units lacking intensive micro techniques. For the sake of wishful thinking, I'll agree that vikings should have a moving shot possibly in exchange for less range.
I like the idea of more speed with less range but I feel like their range is what makes them unique and prevents them from being too similar to other air units (mutalisk, phoenix). To me it seems like this range should come at a cost as opposed to right out of the box. Reactors on the starport exemplify this problem because it makes viking so easy to mass.
As for ending early viking play, terrans would just have to adapt by doing a better job at scouting what their is opponent is doing, which is actually a huge problem at the moment. Terran's don't need to do much scouting because their buildings and units are all so versatile. On the other hand, zerg needs to be constantly checking on what the terran is doing because of how many options they have at their disposal. Now we can put the terran in our shoes, forcing them to be on the ball with their scouting in case they need to commit to anti-air. In PvT, you scout void ray or collosi, you need to react by getting the range upgrade. It's simply forcing the terran to match their opponent on air superiority commitments, as opposed being able to nullify their opponents air while staying extremely flexible at the same time.
Quick question, I thought the tank change they made during beta around patch 9 was just a change to how the splash was distributed and they always had the smart AI even in beta. Correct me of I'm wrong, but I think siege tanks became good when they centered the splash damage area of effect or something of that nature (I was okay with this change). I always felt like the splash damage caused by siege tank always compensated for their lack of perfect target acquisition in BW.
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Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound.
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On August 17 2010 11:14 Prophecy3 wrote:
@kidcrash
Epic post, classy and hilarious. Agree with you except for siege tank AI. I think those who played Early BETA (pre-patch 9) that siege focused Mech was completely useless because of BW AI.
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Tank AI wasn't changed at all, what changed was the splash to be on the target instead of where the target was when shot was fired making the splash that much more effective.
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On August 17 2010 12:29 oxxo wrote:
Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound.
I agree that its not as bad as it sounds, but I think this thread helps to get people's opinions out. Some really creative ideas have been heard. 1 BC killing 5 hydras isn't mentioned in the OP, it only states real concerns from a high level player. Ladder ranking does mean something, because he has played plenty of games and knows what he is talking about balance-wise.
As far as Terran being favored early game, wouldn't this mean they could potentially win every game?
edit: siege tank AI was changed, they now hit their target instantly meaning no shots are wasted because they instantly calculate how much HP left/shots needed
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On August 17 2010 12:29 oxxo wrote:
Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound.
tell me one thing, how can you reach the late game if you cant survive the early game?
How can you reach the late game, when harrass in the early game has delayed your tech and you lose to a mid game push before your at late game?
Also consider that terran players still arent abusing everything in their arsenal, when Top T players start forward building missile turrets and sensor towers, further reducing mutas on the field and removing our surround and surprise trait of zerg the imbalences will start to show more. When in late games Top T players when minerals start stacking start building artificial chokes with half finished supply depots and turrets to increase their army advantage even more what can zerg answer with? Many T players claim the game is new and many strats are still to be discovered for zerg, this is true. but looking at the amount of units T has compared to Z, there is gonna be even more undiscovered tricks for T then Z.
and also if one ultra can beat 10 marines then the terran player obvoiusly doesnt know the meaning of micro and stim.
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On August 17 2010 12:39 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 12:29 oxxo wrote:
Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound. tell me one thing, how can you reach the late game if you cant survive the early game? How can you reach the late game, when harrass in the early game has delayed your tech and you lose to a mid game push before your at late game? Also consider that terran players still arent abusing everything in their arsenal, when Top T players start forward building missile turrets and sensor towers, further reducing mutas on the field and removing our surround and surprise trait of zerg the imbalences will start to show more. When in late games Top T players when minerals start stacking start building artificial chokes with half finished supply depots and turrets to increase their army advantage even more what can zerg answer with? Many T players claim the game is new and many strats are still to be discovered for zerg, this is true. but looking at the amount of units T has compared to Z, there is gonna be even more undiscovered tricks for T then Z. and also if one ultra can beat 10 marines then the terran player obvoiusly doesnt know the meaning of micro and stim.
Nono they would never do anything as outrageous as use supply depots now that would be imbalanced, they would use a very fair and free wall of bunkers and then when they need the resources back just destroy the wall again. 
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On August 17 2010 12:44 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 12:39 TyrantPotato wrote:On August 17 2010 12:29 oxxo wrote:
Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound. tell me one thing, how can you reach the late game if you cant survive the early game? How can you reach the late game, when harrass in the early game has delayed your tech and you lose to a mid game push before your at late game? Also consider that terran players still arent abusing everything in their arsenal, when Top T players start forward building missile turrets and sensor towers, further reducing mutas on the field and removing our surround and surprise trait of zerg the imbalences will start to show more. When in late games Top T players when minerals start stacking start building artificial chokes with half finished supply depots and turrets to increase their army advantage even more what can zerg answer with? Many T players claim the game is new and many strats are still to be discovered for zerg, this is true. but looking at the amount of units T has compared to Z, there is gonna be even more undiscovered tricks for T then Z. and also if one ultra can beat 10 marines then the terran player obvoiusly doesnt know the meaning of micro and stim. Nono they would never do anything as outrageous as use supply depots now that would be imbalanced, they would use a very fair and free wall of bunkers and then when they need the resources back just destroy the wall again.
why of course. because something that costs something is imbalanced Terran cant survive without a free wall 
lol i dont mean this in a condesending way T players
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The safest way to play tvz imo is 14 pool 15 hatch.. sit back and defend with either roach or speedling.. or both. u can either go for muta and take a 3rd or infester id say go for melee/armor upgrades since lategame broodlings from broodlords and ultras both benefit from it.
I think this is the hardest part for zerg.. getting late game with a decent econ. I play T and i agree that TvZ is imbalanced. All factory units just rape all zerg lair units so you desperately need to get to hive tech in order to fight his army. This means you have to too heavily invest in order to stop any early pushes which will leave his econ better than yours.
The zerg definately needs to play much stronger and creative in order to win. If Zerg does reach hive tech and can get ultra/ling with some hydra or infester support then the battles turn out alot more even but if terran scout ultra.. just start pumpin some extra maruder and gg.
I personally think that ultra should be able to walk over zergling.. there is nothing worse than seeing your ultras bugging out because there are soo many ling blockings its path.. but this might bee too overpowered so i'm not sure what blizz will do. Maybe they should allow Brood Lords without greater spire.. i sure as fuck would rather fight Brood Lords than Void Rays lols..
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On August 17 2010 05:23 Caelestis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:02 Drowsy wrote:
This might be better suited to a strategy thread, but I'm finding this matchup much easier when I just suck it up and 14 hatch before pool. Losing to cheese once in a while sucks, but if you want to beat a strong mech terran you pretty much have to take huge economic risks early on to get an edge big enough to win. It also actually feels better vs early hellion and banshee aggression because you have a lot more minerals and can build 4+ queens and spine crawlers while maintaining a decent econ. I also do this (sometimes even 15h/14p) but occasionally when T scouts this, they just bunker behind the mineral line at nat. Even if you immediately pull two drones off to kill scv, it gets completed often due to convenient scv movement. A skilled terran who has good understanding of the game will do this, and heck, he was probably planning to reaper harass you before hellion anyway. I imagine if hatch before pool FE becomes popular, more T's will catch onto this. The fluidity of the terran gameplan in this matchup is beyond frustrating...
I've been bunker rushed 3 times using a 10 scout, 14 hatch, 13pool build. I stopped it each time easily with barely any losses. Nobody has done it behind mineral line, but so far it's actually been better than 14 pool 15 hatch, though I imagine it's still worse than the lingspeed expo build vs these kinds of cheeses. This build smokes the shit out of 2gate protoss, weirdly enough, because you have a pair of queens at your nat defending earlier and can start a spine crawler sooner. I need to test more games, but so far I'm concluding that hatch before pool is way better than the standard 14p 15 hatch build vs cheese and gives you a stronger economy to boot. The lingspeed then expo build is obviously safest, but what's the point of being safe if you need a huge economic lead to beat a mech terran or macroing colossi protoss?
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On August 17 2010 11:41 DFarce wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 11:29 Glox wrote:
3) Baneling howitzer. Will never happen but I so want one.
I can completely agree that although it would never happen, it would be awesome. Imagine if there was an upgrade so broodlords fired banelings? It would be like a seige tank! mmm. Back on topic, if any one wants to see IdrA get destroyed by Silver, there are two VODs on Husky's channel. Game 1Game 2I wouldn't say that it was IdrA's best game, especially because he was pretty upset to just be playing Terran. But I think that we can agree that IdrA is an insane zerg player, and got shut down pretty hard. Game overview: + Show Spoiler +In game 1 IdrA lost really hard to a push with marines, hellions, thors and seige tanks. He tried to go into Silver's base and harass in the meantime with 8 mutas but was shut down hard by 2 turrets.
In game 2 Silver rushed a drop on IdrA's natural with 4 marines and a seige tank which destroyed the static D IdrA put up. IdrA attempted a counter attack on Silver with roaches but got once again shut down by a front door defended by seige tanks I think that the general reason, similar to my last post in this thread, is that the lair tech was up far too late. If it was up earlier then IdrA could have gotten overlord drop or mutas faster, which would have been cruicial. Whether this is due to IdrA's playstyle or a general imbalance is debatable.
its so friggen aggravating to see terrans building at the bottom of the ramp nowadays. like they are laughing in zerg player's faces.
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On August 17 2010 12:51 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:23 Caelestis wrote:On August 17 2010 05:02 Drowsy wrote:
This might be better suited to a strategy thread, but I'm finding this matchup much easier when I just suck it up and 14 hatch before pool. Losing to cheese once in a while sucks, but if you want to beat a strong mech terran you pretty much have to take huge economic risks early on to get an edge big enough to win. It also actually feels better vs early hellion and banshee aggression because you have a lot more minerals and can build 4+ queens and spine crawlers while maintaining a decent econ. I also do this (sometimes even 15h/14p) but occasionally when T scouts this, they just bunker behind the mineral line at nat. Even if you immediately pull two drones off to kill scv, it gets completed often due to convenient scv movement. A skilled terran who has good understanding of the game will do this, and heck, he was probably planning to reaper harass you before hellion anyway. I imagine if hatch before pool FE becomes popular, more T's will catch onto this. The fluidity of the terran gameplan in this matchup is beyond frustrating... I've been bunker rushed 3 times using a 10 scout, 14 hatch, 13pool build. I stopped it each time easily with barely any losses. Nobody has done it behind mineral line, but so far it's actually been better than 14 pool 15 hatch, though I imagine it's still worse than the lingspeed expo build vs these kinds of cheeses. This build smokes the shit out of 2gate protoss, weirdly enough, because you have a pair of queens at your nat defending earlier and can start a spine crawler sooner. I need to test more games, but so far I'm concluding that hatch before pool is way better than the standard 14p 15 hatch build vs cheese and gives you a stronger economy to boot. The lingspeed then expo build is obviously safest, but what's the point of being safe if you need a huge economic lead to beat a mech terran or macroing colossi protoss?
14 hatch 13 pool sounds like it'd die hard to any mass reaper build though. Otherwise it seems pretty good, but other than bunker rush why go with it? Just like any of the zerg openings it seems like you're leaving yourself vulnerable to at least 1 thing in an attempt to have an even footing against something else.
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Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage
this is totally outrage bs.
In what grounds is zerg stronger at the end than terran exactly?
Well theyr not terms of top tech units , since bcs > ultras and broodlords since none of them can shoot air for starters.
Spare me with zerg can rebuild an army instah myth cause their many good players that have debunked this already and
third blizzard officially claim is at max armies zerg is the weakest so again wheres zerg superiority at the end rly cause i dont see any except if you have been outplayed.
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On August 17 2010 12:59 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 12:51 Drowsy wrote:On August 17 2010 05:23 Caelestis wrote:On August 17 2010 05:02 Drowsy wrote:
This might be better suited to a strategy thread, but I'm finding this matchup much easier when I just suck it up and 14 hatch before pool. Losing to cheese once in a while sucks, but if you want to beat a strong mech terran you pretty much have to take huge economic risks early on to get an edge big enough to win. It also actually feels better vs early hellion and banshee aggression because you have a lot more minerals and can build 4+ queens and spine crawlers while maintaining a decent econ. I also do this (sometimes even 15h/14p) but occasionally when T scouts this, they just bunker behind the mineral line at nat. Even if you immediately pull two drones off to kill scv, it gets completed often due to convenient scv movement. A skilled terran who has good understanding of the game will do this, and heck, he was probably planning to reaper harass you before hellion anyway. I imagine if hatch before pool FE becomes popular, more T's will catch onto this. The fluidity of the terran gameplan in this matchup is beyond frustrating... I've been bunker rushed 3 times using a 10 scout, 14 hatch, 13pool build. I stopped it each time easily with barely any losses. Nobody has done it behind mineral line, but so far it's actually been better than 14 pool 15 hatch, though I imagine it's still worse than the lingspeed expo build vs these kinds of cheeses. This build smokes the shit out of 2gate protoss, weirdly enough, because you have a pair of queens at your nat defending earlier and can start a spine crawler sooner. I need to test more games, but so far I'm concluding that hatch before pool is way better than the standard 14p 15 hatch build vs cheese and gives you a stronger economy to boot. The lingspeed then expo build is obviously safest, but what's the point of being safe if you need a huge economic lead to beat a mech terran or macroing colossi protoss? 14 hatch 13 pool sounds like it'd die hard to any mass reaper build though. Otherwise it seems pretty good, but other than bunker rush why go with it?
Because it's also the best economic build early game. Mass reaper wouldn't be fun to play against, but I imagine it's possible with mass queens, which you can start pumping much earlier with a quicker 2nd hatch. I still need to play it more, but it seems both safer and economically stronger than the 14 pool 15 hatch build.
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Just so ya know, the tanks to damage themselves if they are a bit to close to the target.
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Quick question, I thought the tank change they made during beta around patch 9 was just a change to how the splash was distributed and they always had the smart AI even in beta. Correct me of I'm wrong, but I think siege tanks became good when they centered the splash damage area of effect or something of that nature (I was okay with this change). I always felt like the splash damage caused by siege tank always compensated for their lack of perfect target acquisition in BW.
I was looking around to confirm, but since I couldn't find the relevent posts maybe someone else could confirm, but I seem to remember two distinct changes to tanks, the first being Overkill AI, the second (patch 9) 100% targeting per shot (splashes from center of unit, instant shot).
because their (Terran) buildings and units are all so versatile.
This is the main point of the whole thread, in one sentence. Terran is versatile, and all units and buildings work cohesively, built around a simple principle of 'keep them at range and blast them to hell'.
It seems clear to me that Zerg does not have the same cohesive ability in regards to army compo, long range will always have an advantage over close range or melee when larger and larger numbers come into play. . I think Zerg is lacking some key abilities (like another AoE).
And for the record, I still think the BroodLord was and is the worst SC2 Unit. What was wrong with gobs of acid??
EDIT: Grammar =/
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On August 17 2010 12:51 Veetz wrote:
The safest way to play tvz imo is 14 pool 15 hatch.. sit back and defend with either roach or speedling.. or both. u can either go for muta and take a 3rd or infester id say go for melee/armor upgrades since lategame broodlings from broodlords and ultras both benefit from it.
I think this is the hardest part for zerg.. getting late game with a decent econ. I play T and i agree that TvZ is imbalanced. All factory units just rape all zerg lair units so you desperately need to get to hive tech in order to fight his army. This means you have to too heavily invest in order to stop any early pushes which will leave his econ better than yours.
The zerg definately needs to play much stronger and creative in order to win. If Zerg does reach hive tech and can get ultra/ling with some hydra or infester support then the battles turn out alot more even but if terran scout ultra.. just start pumpin some extra maruder and gg.
I personally think that ultra should be able to walk over zergling.. there is nothing worse than seeing your ultras bugging out because there are soo many ling blockings its path.. but this might bee too overpowered so i'm not sure what blizz will do. Maybe they should allow Brood Lords without greater spire.. i sure as fuck would rather fight Brood Lords than Void Rays lols..
100% agreed. now try getting that expansion down with an scv blocking it. it fucks so many things up. Scv blocking expansions is a major factor in the weakness of Zerg at the higher levels
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United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2010 12:29 oxxo wrote:
Seriously why are the mods letting this sit? Just because he has a high ladder ranking doesn't mean jack crap when he's complaining about things like 1 BC > 5 hydras. Hey guess what, 1 ultra > 10+marines. So?
There's no real discussion in this thread. It's pretty much the same as all the other whine threads.
Here's what it boils down to:
TvZ.
T = early game advantage.
Z = late game advantage.
Get over it. It'll be fixed. It's nowhere near as bad as people are making it sound.
Even if this were true, it's pretty poor design to make one race play catch-up the entire game. SC1 worked because each matchup had a back-and-forth dynamic, not just one race clearly being better at one stage or another.
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EPT
