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Many here seem to want to nerf terran. Don't think that is the way to go. I still think Zerg should try out a few more things for a while at least, so if changes come they are good ones. But those changes rather should give Zerg more and better options.
Some way to let them get lair earlier. Either off one base or by making early expanding a better possibility. Simplest option would be be build time decreases for hatches or lair or queens.
And the Zerg also have a lot of room for improvement in their spells, not to say this area feels sort of half assed for them. Queen and infestor are sort of ok, but still pale in comparison to the main casters of the other races. And with overseers it is just no contest. Not to speak of corruption, which is utterly useless, and makes the corruptor the only air to air flyer that basically can't support the ground army. Vikings can land to harrass and protect the terran ball with their range against air. Phoenix can lift off.
Anyway, posted my suggestions a few times already, purely spitballing:
- Corruption should reduce sight radius on top of the damage increase, to the riduculous terran range can be overcome with some micro. Probably to to 6, so corruptors can't shoot while being out of sight range.
- Infested terrans should be on overseers, and relatively cheap, their other spells reduced in cost accordingly. For the brief period they were on overseers in the beta, they were prohibitively expensive. Maybe blizzard was worrying about a big infested terran army for zero cost and zero supply when zerg is maxed. But getting that many overseers would be prohibitively expensive.
- Infestors should instead get a researchable AoE buff available at Hive, "pheromone cloud" that works like the Frenzy spell in beta on all biological units, also enemy ones, in an area around the infestor.
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The creep speed thing always felt a little off and forced to me. It works good for crawlers/queens, but seems to be a detriment for the rest of the Zerg army, especially early game when you can't spread creep yet. Either speed has to be too good on Creep or not good enough off.
That and the way all the vs. light/vs armored bonus damage works and the units that have/don't have those in a ZvT (though other matchups to an extent as well) just seems to lead to some pretty silly situations.
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SOMEONE. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. READ THIS.
The TC touched on an EXCELLENT point: MOBILITY. We, as zerg, NEED to be able to get from point A to point B FAST. We are ALL about hit and run, and dispensable units(They gave T rectors...which should belong to zerg). ALL of our units work EXACTLY like the Zerglings: SURROUND. TRAP. PUNISH. Zerg tactics are quick and dirty. It's about wave after wave of annoyment. BUT WE CAN NOT ACCOMPLISH this in sc2. THink about it:
We NEED to surround right? Right. But the PHYSICAL GAME/MAPS will NOT allow us to do so! There are not a SINGLE map out there that allows for a 70% arcof an circle surround in ANYWHERE. Infact, i believe MOST of not all of the maps in SC2 involves some kind of choke point. We as Zerg CAN'T physically excel in our fields because the game simply does not ALLOW us. We NEED big, open, battlefields. Chokes are okay, but it shouldn't hinder the machanics of a whole race. We just don't have the tools for manuverbility.
Don't tell us GO MUTA IF NO SURROUND LOL LOL LOLZ. Because that means that the whole point of playing ZERG is playing COUNTER. I WANT to be able to decide, formulate, execute my own strategy. There are only a HANDFUL of useful builds/tatics that gives us even remote chance of winning. I agree with the TC of zerg being "boring" aspect.
To sum it all up, TLDR: Someone, somewhere, sometime NEED to rethink the zerg, and make them live up to their potential and their true calling: QUICK DIRTY EXPENDIBLE. CHOKE points and overall inability to surround armies should NOT be a handicap! It should be more of a thinking strategy "ok, he's doing this, maybe i should..."
That's what's killing the Zerg. The game's physical properties does NOT allow us to be efficient.
View this.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/58195-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station#rd:dna
Thank you
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United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2010 14:40 imbecile wrote:- Corruption should reduce sight radius on top of the damage increase, to the riduculous terran range can be overcome with some micro. Probably to to 6, so corruptors can't shoot while being out of sight range.
- Infested terrans should be on overseers, and relatively cheap, their other spells reduced in cost accordingly. For the brief period they were on overseers in the beta, they were prohibitively expensive. Maybe blizzard was worrying about a big infested terran army for zero cost and zero supply when zerg is maxed. But getting that many overseers would be prohibitively expensive.
- Infestors should instead get a researchable AoE buff available at Hive, "pheromone cloud" that works like the Frenzy spell in beta on all biological units, also enemy ones, in an area around the infestor.
Not to call you out specifically, but I personally am not really in favor in these types of balance changes at this point, at least not before HotS. Maybe they will balance things out, but the problem is that they aren't really straightforward as far as balance goes. It's impossible to measure how successful they are as actual balance changes because as far as their actual effect on matchups, it would take at least a couple weeks before people figure out how to use it well, and on the order of several months or years to figure out how to properly incorporate it into standard play. The true effect that it has on balance is going to be impossible to determine for a long time, and it will just obscure where balance actually stands.
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Nerfing terran is not the way to go, the current situation in TvP is fine; zerg only needs a buff as they are the race lacking early game choices
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On August 17 2010 14:46 DonKey_ wrote:
Nerfing terran is not the way to go, the current situation in TvP is fine; zerg only needs a buff as they are the race lacking early game choices
TvP isn't "fine". TvP is bareable. There's a difference.
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On August 16 2010 21:48 kidcrash wrote:
Okay guys let's be realistic here people, Blizzard isn't going to make any HUGE changes to the game play. A lot of these suggestions are very good and well thought out, however they are just much too drastic to expect from Blizzard at this point. I'm not trying to discourage making up elaborate ideas for balance changes. I just think we should try to stick to the more straight forward ideas in light of being as pragmatic as possible.
So here is my (revamped) list of needed game play changes. I'm trying to keep everything as subtle as possible, so that the little things can add up to help mend the "bigger picture".
Zerg changes
(1) Decrease spine crawler build time by about 10-15 seconds. Right now when you scout your opponent leaving their base, you just can't throw up a proper defense in time to thwart the attack.
(2) Change burrow back to 50/50 cost. I think we'd see a lot more burrowed infestor and burrowed roach play if the upgrade was just a little bit cheaper.
(3) Neural parasite duration changed to about 20-24 seconds. This is needed as a counter to thor play because trying to attack a thor getting auto repaired by 3-4 scvs can be an absolute joke sometimes.
Edit: (4) Some sort of creep tumor buff to allow for the spreading of creep faster. Zerg really needs as much creep as possible to abuse the mobility they have over terran mech builds. The thing is, it's a bit too much of an APM sink at the moment. Possibly if the creep spread faster or if the cool down was slower, this would alleviate the problem.
Terran changes
(1) Missile Turret attack speed brought down by about 20% - 25%. Muta harass is completely nullified at the moment by just a few turrets. They should act as a deterrent more so than as a straight up hard counter.
(2) Bunker salvage changed to anything but 100% refund. Nothing in the SC universe should ever be free, whether it costs minerals, gas, or energy.
(3) Stim changed from 100/100 cost back to 150/150. Way to powerful of an ability to be giving away for 100/100. Terrans need to pay the price for such a game breaking ability.
The next two changes are a bit more drastic than the ones listed above. That being said, I think they are needed because right now terran has a huge range advantage in both the air and on the ground.
(4) Start viking range off at 7 and add an upgrade to the starport tech lab for +2 range for 150/150. Basically if the terran wants to control the air, they are going to have to make a commitment to it. No more throwing down a startport with a reactor and gaining instant air control. If you see your opponent going muta harass or heavy collosi, it would be a needed investment to research.
(5) Change the attack animation for siege tanks in siege mode so they have the ability to overkill units. Right now breaking tank lines can be a bit unbearable at times. Without overkill, you can't draw fire away with cannon fodder because siege tanks have 100% efficiency on their target acquisition. What people fail to realize is, even with overkill, you are still dealing a great bit of damage from the splash damage created by siege tank fire. With overkill, although the attacks would be less efficient, terrans would still get by with dealing a good amount of damage from the splash damage alone (albeit a lot of this damage would now be friendly fire damage as well).
Once again, I'm trying to keep all suggestions as straight forward and simple as possible because some of these ideas in this thread are just a little too elaborate to expect from blizzard at this stage. I really do believe that if the above 9 changes were made that tvz, would be for the most part, balanced once and for all.
Well said
Another thought came to mind what if the use of stim gave diminishing returns. The first 2-3 stims would be normal but after that even if a medivac patches them up they gain slightly less movement or slightly less firepower or the health lost starts to go up exponentially.
Even medivacs can't save you if your stim brings you down to one health during a fight.
On August 16 2010 22:11 Bair wrote:
Just tossing this here to get people's opinions. Posted it on LaLush's thread as well.
Honestly? Reduce lair and hive build time by 10 seconds. The tech time is still substantial enough enough that omg quick mutas would not be more effective (terrans are able to deal with quick mutas currently and 10 seconds would not suddenly break that MU...lul) seeing as how toss deals with them fairly well.
Reduce spawning pool build time by 5 seconds. This would affect ZvZ a bit, and ZvP a bit, but seeing as how 2 gate pressure is almost the standard ZvP opener, I do not see this adversely affecting the MU.
Reduce queen build time by 10 seconds. This goes towards making tech a little less painful.
Roaches...this is kinda hard to change without making a gamebreaking change to ZvZ. I would make tunneling claws baseline. One less upgrade for lair tech when going for burrow roaches. This would hopefully open up roach play a bit without making drastic changes to ZvZ.
I feel it is underpowered for a supply 2 unit. I mean...boosting the damage or armor makes them godly against lings (2 armor or 18 damage). They already have higher HP. I would remove the armored modifier, remove the 1 armor, and bump them to 1 supply if a stat change was needed. But even that I would be hesitant to do because of how much it would affect all 3 matchups.
Zerglings, bump adrenal glands to 30%. I would love 50, but that would wreck lategame ZvP (I would love that still! Cracklings fighting!) Because suddenly the zergling overshadows the zealot (which is the real counter to lings) while wrecking the other units even more so. I would also reduce speed research by 10 seconds, making reaper harass a bit easier to deal with.
Banelings, I honestly cannot think of any change I would make aside from reducing centrifugal hooks to 100/100/100 from 150/150/110. Makes lair tech upgrades that much less painful.
Lair upgrades...ventral sacs is fine as is, and the transport upgrade should be bumped down from 200/200/200 to 100/100/100. The reasoning simply being ledge play is so strong right now and while one upgrade let's us have 100 mineral dropships, we need both to use them effectively. Ya, I know P and T have to tech for theirs, but they tech faster, tech better (1 building = multiple units possible), and remember, racial diversity does not equal imbalance.
Burrow should have a reduced cost, but have the same research time. Terran bio is punished pretty strongly now, and more so with the above mentioned baneling change. Roach burrow play would already be MUCH stronger because of the above mentioned change to them. No need to make it too easy for us.
Mutalisks should be faster (same speed as phoenix perhaps?) While getting 10 more hp. More effective harass that way since they are arguably the most neutered unit from BW (lack of micro, more effective AA for P and T) also reduced to 1 supply.
Hydralisks I would either buff HP by ten or damage by two. Makes them stronger or makes storm not quite the game ender it is now when they are caught off creep. Would make them a bit more effective against terran as they can beat a marauder a bit more efficiently now.
Nydus worm: make one nydus network able to build multiple worms at the same time. Still costly, but makes nydus assaults much more viable. I do not want to reduce cost much because I fell they are underutilized as it is.
Corruptors would be 100/100/1 down from 150/100/2. A little bit more easily used against colossi and vikings. Corrupt energy cost reduced to 50 energy, and in addition removes all armor from the target. Makes it a bit more effective and gives reason to add a few into an army while increasing micro potential since it would be single target still.
Infestors would either have the current NP baseline, or the infinte NP as a researched ability. This is partially for the ZvT matchup, but also because in ZvP countering colossi requires 2-3 infestors because of how easily they are sniped and the fact that 12 seconds is not enough. Too expensive for a supposed counter. IT is fine and fungal growth is the best spell in the game. Also, remove the armored modifier for a horrendously fragile unit for its cost.
Bro lords, increase armor to 2 and hp to 275. Fine aside from that, just a little too easily mudered by AtA from a unit that is meant to be on par with a carrier or BC in destructive power. I would prefer bigger buffs, but that is the bias in me.
Ultralisks...change base armor to 3, increase base damage by 5, decrease vs armor damage by 5 (no change is vs armor damage. This is more because this unit is meant to be the, and I mean The badass unit in the game. Highest armor, highest HP, strikes fear into the hearts of all. Makes it more effective vs T1 (Zealots and marines are surprisingly effective against them) and still maintains the same baddassery against armored.
All in all, the T1 and T2 changes are meant to open options and make teching/upgrades not as painful. T3 I feel should be stronger because of two main reasons. The first, for broodlords is that they are remarkably fragile for a sieging, BC sized fear inducing destroyer of turtles. Vikings with their range and vrays with there damage output murder them. Ultralisks are surprisingly ineffective against massed t1. There are options (snipe and immortals) people rarely use. Making them more effective would encourage more ghost (effective against ultra/ling play due tosnipe and bonus against light) and immortals (I do not seem them used much since the roach nerf)
Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
Alot of the changes here don't sound bad at all but some of them seem to underpower terran infantry vs zerg even worse which would only encourage the use of mech.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2010 14:50 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 14:46 DonKey_ wrote:
Nerfing terran is not the way to go, the current situation in TvP is fine; zerg only needs a buff as they are the race lacking early game choices TvP isn't "fine". TvP is bareable. There's a difference.
ZvP and TvP aren't as obviously imbalanced as TvZ. There are probably some issues, but it's not entirely certain where they stand. Opinions seem pretty mixed, compared to the consensus people have on the obvious TvZ imbalance.
This is part of the problem, of course, seeing as you don't want to accidentally break matchups when you don't know if there's anything wrong with them.
On August 16 2010 21:48 kidcrash wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Okay guys let's be realistic here people, Blizzard isn't going to make any HUGE changes to the game play. A lot of these suggestions are very good and well thought out, however they are just much too drastic to expect from Blizzard at this point. I'm not trying to discourage making up elaborate ideas for balance changes. I just think we should try to stick to the more straight forward ideas in light of being as pragmatic as possible.
So here is my (revamped) list of needed game play changes. I'm trying to keep everything as subtle as possible, so that the little things can add up to help mend the "bigger picture".
Zerg changes
(1) Decrease spine crawler build time by about 10-15 seconds. Right now when you scout your opponent leaving their base, you just can't throw up a proper defense in time to thwart the attack.
(2) Change burrow back to 50/50 cost. I think we'd see a lot more burrowed infestor and burrowed roach play if the upgrade was just a little bit cheaper.
(3) Neural parasite duration changed to about 20-24 seconds. This is needed as a counter to thor play because trying to attack a thor getting auto repaired by 3-4 scvs can be an absolute joke sometimes.
Edit: (4) Some sort of creep tumor buff to allow for the spreading of creep faster. Zerg really needs as much creep as possible to abuse the mobility they have over terran mech builds. The thing is, it's a bit too much of an APM sink at the moment. Possibly if the creep spread faster or if the cool down was slower, this would alleviate the problem.
Terran changes
(1) Missile Turret attack speed brought down by about 20% - 25%. Muta harass is completely nullified at the moment by just a few turrets. They should act as a deterrent more so than as a straight up hard counter.
(2) Bunker salvage changed to anything but 100% refund. Nothing in the SC universe should ever be free, whether it costs minerals, gas, or energy.
(3) Stim changed from 100/100 cost back to 150/150. Way to powerful of an ability to be giving away for 100/100. Terrans need to pay the price for such a game breaking ability.
The next two changes are a bit more drastic than the ones listed above. That being said, I think they are needed because right now terran has a huge range advantage in both the air and on the ground.
(4) Start viking range off at 7 and add an upgrade to the starport tech lab for +2 range for 150/150. Basically if the terran wants to control the air, they are going to have to make a commitment to it. No more throwing down a startport with a reactor and gaining instant air control. If you see your opponent going muta harass or heavy collosi, it would be a needed investment to research.
(5) Change the attack animation for siege tanks in siege mode so they have the ability to overkill units. Right now breaking tank lines can be a bit unbearable at times. Without overkill, you can't draw fire away with cannon fodder because siege tanks have 100% efficiency on their target acquisition. What people fail to realize is, even with overkill, you are still dealing a great bit of damage from the splash damage created by siege tank fire. With overkill, although the attacks would be less efficient, terrans would still get by with dealing a good amount of damage from the splash damage alone (albeit a lot of this damage would now be friendly fire damage as well).
Once again, I'm trying to keep all suggestions as straight forward and simple as possible because some of these ideas in this thread are just a little too elaborate to expect from blizzard at this stage. I really do believe that if the above 9 changes were made that tvz, would be for the most part, balanced once and for all.
I like a lot of these ideas, but it's worth noting that not all of these are probably necessary, and it would probably be better to fix the early game (e.g. nerf on reapers/bunkers so that it's actually possible to hatch-before-pool) before exploring these changes carefully.
The zerg economic model was designed around hatch-before-pool builds in SC1. Not being able to do it in SC2, without a clear way to compensate for it is damaging to zerg, especially in the early and mid game.
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If they nerf Terran to the point where ZvT is even, then we will have 2 boring races with P being the only non boring race. They need to buff Z at least, and maybe nerf T a little bit. I think the fact that they made such a strong, versatile race is something that should be emulated for the other races, rather than something that should be taken out.
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On August 17 2010 12:51 Veetz wrote:
The safest way to play tvz imo is 14 pool 15 hatch.. sit back and defend with either roach or speedling.. or both. u can either go for muta and take a 3rd or infester id say go for melee/armor upgrades since lategame broodlings from broodlords and ultras both benefit from it.
I think this is the hardest part for zerg.. getting late game with a decent econ. I play T and i agree that TvZ is imbalanced. All factory units just rape all zerg lair units so you desperately need to get to hive tech in order to fight his army. This means you have to too heavily invest in order to stop any early pushes which will leave his econ better than yours.
Personally I would like to see some Zerg players to try Slush's 10 pool, 10 extractor, 13 (6 lings) baneling nest version of a fast opening - which Day[9] showed us in the first game of Day[9] daily #165 - against Terran. If the Terran walls off he will have to rebuild at least one depot, but the question is: When will those Banelings arrive at the Terrans base? The Terran should not have that many Marines out by then and they would not be able to kill these units fast enough and as long as you keep the units "trickling in" the Terran might be prevented from walling off again. If there is no wall-in there is the chance for Zerg to get to the SCVs in the back of the base and do serious harm.
The thing is that this tactic would offer the possibility of faking aggression to make the Terran switch to panic mode OR to put constant pressure on him and do real damage. Since you dont make a lot of Drones and even skip a queen there is the question of economy to follow up, but the Terran does not "go free" either. There are basically two options for the Terran: a) I wall off with Supply depots, b) I dont wall off. If the Terran walls off you could supply block him seriously and hamper his ability to produce Marines. With this goal achieved you might even be able to kill the remaining Marines with Zerglings and then take out the damaged Barracks so he cant produce more Marines. If the Terran doesnt wall off he needs to build several bunkers to defend his position and then you have "herded him" into a really tight spot and the money for those bunkers needs to come from somewhere ... either the second barracks or some SCVs or the OC, its basically slowing down the Terran so you have an opportunity to "catch up" or overtake his economy while opening his base.
Super early Zerg pressure is rarely seen nowadays, but I think there is some potential on the small (that includes ALL of them and not just Steppes) Blizzard maps against Terrans who need a window of time to get a sufficient quantity of production facilities up and running to keep up with the Zerg production capacity. Sure you only killed a Supply depot or two, but that basically means there is a time stop for any Terran production AND you might even kill the depots (and an SCV?) he needs to build in panic mode with only 2-3 Banelings, since they dont start with 350 hp when they are started. Your low economy doesnt hurt as much, because the Terran needs to rebuild his own stuff and needs to pull SCVs off the minerals for repairs (the barracks) and cant produce anything at all himself.
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On August 15 2010 09:55 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 09:34 MasterAsia wrote:
In Z v T, Terran has at least 10 openning strategies that are considered effective against good Zergs. I just list some here:
reapers,
hellions,
banshees,
fast expand,
mass bio/marines,
ghosts/nukes,
tank rush,
pure mech,
dropships,
vikings... Wow, this list is just... atrocious. Ghosts/nukes is not a viable opening strategy against zerg. Half of those aren't even openings. Viking opening is terrible and is rarely used anymore. Hellion and pure mech are usually the same. Dropships aren't an opening, they come out of the starport and you need things to drop out of them. And yet with such broad criteria, you say the only Z opening is speedlings/roaches.
hellion does not point towards any direction of tech terran is choosing to go, they are a cheap unit with a cheap very useable upgrade that is excellent for harass and any terran no matter their tech tree can have hellions as a part of their build because they are 100 mins 0 gas and excellent vs light armor units
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On August 17 2010 14:45 TheYango wrote:
Not to call you out specifically, but I personally am not really in favor in these types of balance changes at this point, at least not before HotS. Maybe they will balance things out, but the problem is that they aren't really straightforward as far as balance goes. It's impossible to measure how successful they are as actual balance changes because as far as their actual effect on matchups, it would take at least a couple weeks before people figure out how to use it well, and on the order of several months or years to figure out how to properly incorporate it into standard play. The true effect that it has on balance is going to be impossible to determine for a long time, and it will just obscure where balance actually stands.
Agree. That's why I was so disappointed in the beta, because the changes weren't made then. Those Zerg problems where very apparent from the very beginning of the beta. The only thing that kept them afloat was big beefy 1 supply roaches, which obviously was overpowered and boring. Zerg was a one trick pony. And then they took away that one trick with not enough time left to figure out how this plays out.
But for now all you can and should do is find ways to win as Zerg. My guess is the solution for zerg the way the game is now is in the Lair upgrades, e.g. burrow and fast droplords. Find ways to abuse this for all it is worth, just as terran abuse their range and splash for all it is worth. But granted, abusing range and splash is much more straightforward and easier.
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Just a thought but I'm pretty sure Idra mentioned this but the threat of a reaper rush is enough to restrict zerg movement in the early game which gives the terran an economical advantage moving into mid game or late-early game.
What if blizzard simply just redesigned the reaper?
As it stands right now the reaper is rarely seen past early-midgame. It is extremally strong against toss and zerg if rushed for (mostly vs zerg)
What if 1 or more of the following changes were made?
-add upgrade to increase reaper health at factory or ghost academy tech (possibly 25-50% increase)
-Grant reapers the charge ability similar to the one they used to have in the original terran demo. This was probably removed because it was lethal against cluttered buildings or worker lines. I would balance it this way. Give worker units a similar stat that they had in BW. The fact that they hover. Spidermines would not trigger on hovering units but would still damage them if something else set them off. Make them do reduced damage to buildings but more damage to units so the charge could deter reinforcements from saving the worker line.
-Cut damage vs buildings by 30-50%
-Change their attack from vs light to vs worker. Make them kill a worker in 2 hits but with weapons level 2 they would one hit kill workers, if the workers had 3 on armor then you would need 3 on weapons to one hit kill them. This would mean lings would not fear the reaper and could easily combat it. But if the base is left undefended then the reapers would still kill the workers of whatever race they are against.
This may not fix tmech vs z but if simply redesigning one unit would give the zerg alot more flexibility entering the midgame and more options during early game to the extent where they would be able to tech faster. It might in short balance TvZ (if not completely go along way) and at the same time give use to a unit that stops getting used as the game progresses.
Also to kidcrash with the exception of the corruptor battlecruisers are really hard for zerg to deal with too I notice what if the hydras AA was boasted a bit.
Also whoever suggested the viking gain its ridiculously long range through an upgrade I like this idea. Currently oo I see a collosus/Broodlord starport go take that rax'es reactor make 4 vikings. Ahh I'm safe now. Instead what the hell am I going to do with these useless vikings they basically have to fly over the opponents stalkers or fly next to his corruptors before they can do anything.
Almost every other unit with long range in the game requires a research of some sort to obtain that range.
Ghost-build nuke
tank-research siege mode
Collosus-thermal lance
corruptor/BLord-I consider the morph from corruptor to BLord a very expensive research.
BC-yamato
Thor-nothing
Viking-nothing
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On August 17 2010 15:19 terranghost wrote:
Almost every other unit with long range in the game requires a research of some sort to obtain that range.
Ghost-build nuke
tank-research siege mode
Collosus-thermal lance
corruptor/BLord-I consider the morph from corruptor to BLord a very expensive research.
BC-yamato
Thor-nothing
Viking-nothing
You do realize that both of the long range units actually only have that long range against air? If you start arguing about range I start arguing about Mutalisk speed (3.75), which is much higher compared to Viking speed (2.75). It is just pointless to argue this IMO, because otherwise we will start with a game with only one race and everything consisting of upgrades and only your choice of upgrades will determine what will make you different from the opponent. That isnt Starcraft however, so please stop trying to bring some "balance" into the game by trying to make things equal. The Thor range is made up for by the fact that he is horribly slow and the Viking range is made up for by the fact that they can not shoot ground unless they transform (and transformation takes time).
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Make creep unkillable
Decrease lair build time and cost
Decrease metabolic boost build time and cost
Increase queens starting energy
Increase initially creep to cover more area
Decrease baneling cost +25/25 is too high for a unit that self destracts plus has a build time.
These will help significant to defend vs 2 gate early reaper and helion harass and have a better transition to t2 or expand.
Also they may change hydra den to t1 buff their hp and nerf their dmg
change roaches to t2 give +1 armor.
this will help early to mid game and vs vray banshee cheese.
increase overlord speed and armor
this will help immensly with the scouting and prevent very easy snipes form vikings or phoenixes.
Decrease gas by 25% for all mid to late zerg units. Atm gas cost for zerg is insane and really prevents from rebuilding anything other than speedlings fast enough .
lower ultras and broodlords supply food - hey zerg hasnt got as strong units as toss or terran why having same supply
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i woke up recently, started to check some sc news while getting a coffe, i got to rts-sanctuary, opened Diamond Europe, look how disgusting it looks right now 
![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5208/terran.png)
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Whitera is such a hero. Look at him, being all awesome and terrifying and kicking arse. <3
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My dear zergs, those of you who remember BW scene, Terran was considered the weakest race for long time. Until The Emperor showed Terrans how to play. He was the only hope. This did not make playing T any easier or less boring, but made it powerful at high levels.
And Idra is not your emperor (or brainbug, or queen or whatever). Good luck with a race where you learn from Idra. Idra sucked as BW T player consistently, was overly predictable, had solid SC1 mechanics and absolutely no game sense. Even with pro-house training we ended up listening to whining how Protoss is imbalanced (useful talents toi have) or how Zerg can win without doing a single thing. So do you expect that any SC2 player should take Idra whining as serious? And anybody below Idra's level is just not a serious reference.
On top of that, mechanics play smaller role in SC2 because of hard counters and MBS, etc..
Any single bit of buffing the Zerg early game can lead to safe uncontrolled drone pumping (with like 4 lings for defense, which is the ultimate Zerg wet dream) and than it's gg for other races, And you need to find other strategies instead of Savior's turtle until defiler which, for obvious reasons, doesn't work in SC2. In the same time frame as other races can have ~30 workers, zerg can pump up to 60 from two hatches.
Game has changed. Zerg players need to change. So lets wait for some big money tournaments to get rolling, few new maps, and see who pulls the better and smarter players, and maybe, just maybe we can talk balance than.
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On August 17 2010 17:04 bluesoup wrote:
My dear zergs, those of you who remember BW scene, Terran was considered the weakest race for long time. Until The Emperor showed Terrans how to play. He was the only hope. This did not make playing T any easier or less boring, but made it powerful at high levels.
And Idra is not your emperor (or brainbug, or queen or whatever). Good luck with a race where you learn from Idra. Idra sucked as BW T player consistently, was overly predictable, had solid SC1 mechanics and absolutely no game sense. Even with pro-house training we ended up listening to whining how Protoss is imbalanced (useful talents toi have) or how Zerg can win without doing a single thing. So do you expect that any SC2 player should take Idra whining as serious? And anybody below Idra's level is just not a serious reference.
On top of that, mechanics play smaller role in SC2 because of hard counters and MBS, etc..
Any single bit of buffing the Zerg early game can lead to safe uncontrolled drone pumping (with like 4 lings for defense, which is the ultimate Zerg wet dream) and than it's gg for other races, And you need to find other strategies instead of Savior's turtle until defiler which, for obvious reasons, doesn't work in SC2. In the same time frame as other races can have ~30 workers, zerg can pump up to 60 from two hatches.
Game has changed. Zerg players need to change. So lets wait for some big money tournaments to get rolling, few new maps, and see who pulls the better and smarter players, and maybe, just maybe we can talk balance than.
This argument about BWs early days have been said hundreds of times, and it was anwered the same ammount of times, that back in the day when terran was considered weak, the players were bad, e-sport and stuff like that hardly existed, there werent other competitve RTS games from which players could switch to SC and exploit its potentials.
Now we have hundreds living from e-sports, geeks who provdie the most detailed statistics and simulations and a lot more advanced technology to track player's stats.
That's an argument like, i m a good singer, because i was singing in the kindergarden and my mom loved it.
About the "new strategies" needed to be found, that s a really common way of trolling argument, believe me, if you read forums, watch reps and play yourself as zerg, you would be aware that Zergs are trying pretty much everything lately from mass air to mass infestor.
Right now if you check player's statistics Terran is dominating pretty much everywhere, many cups have 3-4 terrans in the semifinals, we had a craftcup i think with 8 terrans in the top 8 so... yeah, there is a problem.
Also i dont know what big money tournaments do you want, in SC2 foreign scene i'd guess there was already more money as prize as in the first 3-5 years of BW in total. Like an invitational for 4-8 person having huge prizepools, many weekly tournaments and big events such az HDH or King of the Beta
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I think the OP stated things well. People who complain that Zerg players are just complaining need to be open and objective. There IS a problem with Zerg and the problem is that Zerg has NO options relative to the other 2 races.
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EPT
