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On August 16 2010 02:01 vica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:58 fnaticAugury wrote:
Nerfing turrets will hurt bio a lot more than it hurts mech. I really like where turrets are at and I think Thors are the bigger issue.
Marauders should be a support unit; nerf their damage output. They should be meat shields with slow.
Siege tanks are too effective in general and Thors should be less effective against mutas. Problem is Terran gets a mineral boost every game: MULES. It gives you a massive increase in minerals, and lets you spam Turrets because they only cost 100 minerals. Most Terrans put down Turrets just in case and are perfectly fine not using them, but you never see that with Zerg. If a Zerg invests in a couple of Spore Crawlers, their production is cut significantly. Marauders get ridiculous DPS with Stim and Concussive Shells. Their high HP also makes them tanks.
Spending those minerals on turrets is a lot more costly for a Terran going Bio.
The real problem is the strength of siege tanks with the improved AI and the damage+range of Thors against mutas.
I agree that marauders do way too much damage considering their support role, which is why I suggested a nerf to their damage capability. They should be used in more of a support role, much like the change made to sentries.
I wouldn't even mind seeing concussive shell as a default ability with a significant reduction to marauder DPS.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 18 2010 02:14 hetpotatis wrote:Alright, prepare yourself for a long ass post... I've been playing Zerg extensively these last days on the ladder (top 20 in diamond) and after losing constantly to Terran, I've been thinking a lot about this MU these last few days. I haven't read the entire thread (still working on it), so some of these changes may already be suggested, but this is what I have. First of all, great OP, it covers lot of ground on why the imbalance is so present. Now, basically what the imbalance is all about is that T has way more options early game then Z because a) their tech is not hard to get, b) their defense is solid while going for this and c) they cannot be scouted efficiently while doing it. It leaves Z at a guessing game wondering what is coming. If you get your natural exp which is standard, you open yourself up for harassment a whole lot more, but more so than any other race because your defense is so bad compared to the others. This is no different than in BW. But since T has so many openings, you don't really know how to prepare because running back and forth between main and exp is not easy if you haven't connected your bases (which you most likely haven't that early in the game) and it just makes it easy for T that has very mobile openings (yes, you heard it right: T is more mobile than Z this early). If you manage to somehow survive the early game, the only thing you can do is try to tech for ultras or BL's as fast as you can while macroing your heart out, worrying about that giant mech push that's coming sooner or later. If you don't macro and tech, you won't be able to throw these giant 200/200 armies at the T in late game to break him and if you don't make defense while this, you open yourself up for a giant push that could be coming anytime, and it's going to kill you fast because of point 4 and 5 in OP. You're on the defensive and have no idea what's coming, because of your inability to scan the T. And I haven't even mentioned how bad burrowed roaches, mutas, nydus' and OL drops are to break in to T's base... This style of play is not fair. And definately not fun. Not by a longshot. So I got to thinking... what are some changes that could be made between TvZ to actually balance it out, without screwing PvZ (which I find balanced and very fun) and PvT (which I unfortunately have no experience of). Italic text are descriptions of why I propose these changes. Proposed Zerg changes:- Creep mechanic changed. All Zerg units now gain half of the creep moving speed INNATELY. The other half still remains with an added effect of increased health regen while on creep and out of combat. This will make Z still want to spread their creep as far as possible and the other races want to move it, but it won't punish Z so badly without it. Without the creep, they're as fast as anybody else, but with it, they become most mobile of all races, which is one of their strengths. Also, the health regen will be an added incentive to spread creep but won't balance fights during actual combat.
- Burrow cost reduced to 50/50.
- Roach armor increased to 2.These last two changes will make burrowed roaches viable again and more accessible without the unholy cost of 250/250 just to see it getting shut down in an instant. Hell, going for early roaches to fend off reapers and hellions are now a perfectly valid choice. Hopefully this won't screw over P in PvZ since supply is still 2.
- Nydus' morphing time reduced and HP increased by 50-100. Improving Nydus' will make them valid again to break through. I find it laughable that when you actually managed to get one near a T expansion, he can just send workers at it and it'll be dead within 5 seconds. It should be enough HP/too little time for workers to bring it down, but somewhat of a small army should be able to break it down in time if awareness is high.
- Hydra HP increased by 10. I find it hilarious that Hydras' cost and supply has been increased, but only their damage has been improved, which is nullified by their slow speed. With the creep change and added HP, this will a lot more sense and open up more options for Z in mid game.
- Queen starting energy increased to 50. Somebody else suggested this and I think it's great. Now when the Queen finishes, it can cast Spawn Larvae and make a Creep Tumor right away to connect to your exp or make a path against your enemy or transfuse another Queen or Crawler for immediate defense. If T starts with 50 (and get it the same time as us for the same cost), why shouldn't we? It's just weird.
I had a lot of other changes in mind, most notably mutalisk range, but they are exactly the same as in BW so it would make sense, but I think these together with other changes will be enough. Proposed Terran changes:- Missile Turrets HP reduced by 50, damage reverted to 7+7(armored) and cost reduced by 25. Why were the turrets changed in SC2? They were perfect the way they were in BW. They were there to make you think if an attack was worth it, not nullify it all together. Turrets are way better in SC2 for just 25 minerals more. Not only to they give detection to burrowed units, they also completely shutdown muta harass and OL drops. They should provide some extra damage like our spore crawlers, not totally own everything in air.
- Orbital Command cost increased to 150/50. Seeing as the OC is a lot more robust than a Queen and so much better, I don't think an added cost of 50 gas is unreasonable. Remember, it gives free scouting and/or free minerals so if you want it, you'll have to invest a bit extra for it. It's stupid that a T can go for an early harass or cheese and still come out of with it a great economy because of the OC. This will also slow down tech options for T if they decide to go for it.
- Starport cost increased to 150/150. I don't get it. Why is the P Stargate 150/150 and not the Starport? Is it because of the Factory needed? Anyway, this will make it easier for Z not to worry about being so easily harassed by Vikings or Banshees in the beginning which is SO hard to see coming, yet so powerful and can set back the Z for hundreds of minerals, effectively costing them the game.
- Thor's can now be attacked by air-to-air units. Sure, ultras punish Thor's badly. But their not their hard counter; tanks are. Yet Thor's come out so fast it's not even funny. I have to get a Pool, a Lair, an Infestor's Den, a Hive and then Ultralisk Cavern to make those while the T makes a Barracks, Factory and Armory and he's done. Zerglings get hammered by Thor's, don't believe the in-game guide. There should be other options earlier to get these guys. Besides, their air attack is still godly.
Other changes I had in mind were lesser range on Vikings and Thor's air attack but Thor's need to be a valid option for ground-to-air and Vikings still have shorter range and weaker damage than Corruptor's (I think, can't remember on the top of my head). I also suggested lesser tank damage, but Siege Tanks need to be a valid option for T to defend against Ultralisks. And of course, lastly: Proposed AI fixes:- Unit AI now targets repairing SCV's as a high priority.
Why isn't this already implemented!? Is a PF able to take down an entire army single-handed "working as intended"? If I can't get it down, I should at least be able to take down all the SCV's to hurt his economy for crying out loud. That's all I have. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the discussion on this issue. Please comment if you think these changes are valid or not.
Some of those changes are really poor calls because of other match-ups. The Queen energy change and the Hydra buff would both be really bad for ZvP. The Queen one would make early game pressure far too hard for Toss, and the Hydra one would make the midgame Zerg hydra ball too strong almost certainly. The Roach armor change MIGHT also be a problem just because of how hard they would rape Zealots with it, but they already do kill them pretty hard, so I am unsure. The Orbital Command cost increase is an poor idea because it would remove Terran's ability to FE as effectively in PvT, so the match-up would risk becoming centralized around 1-base timing pushes from Terran and not much else. And as much as I agree that the Thor needs a fix, that's the worst idea yet. TvT would be completely retarded after that, because it already revolves a lot around Vikings; If they could kill Thors, Vikings would become even more centralizing and them match-up would be COMPLETELY one-dimensional and boring. The rest of them don't seem particularly terrible, and the UI one is incredibly sensible and I very much support it (I'm currently doing some investigation into why Repair is good, it'll arrive in the post 2 above yours when I'm done).
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9, The Terran is so easy to play.
I just saw DIMAGA won the tournament AS TERRAN. According to my experience and words from DIMAGA and Sheth, I think Terran is too easy to play.
Wait, are you joking? What did Dimaga just win as T?
[B]On August 18 2010 01:17 sparknineone wrote:
To the Mod Edit:
I don't think player rank means anything in terms of their knowledge of the game or their willingness to seriously discuss balance issues, esp. regarding their own race. A "bronze newbie" can have a good understanding of many important issues that may need to be dealt with. It's sad that nearly every "pro" interview I've seen so far is just biased banter about how unfair it is for their race.
That's totally wrong, sir, right now the game isnt set in stone, and it requires less apm/mechanical skill then BW. You can make to Diamond with 4-50 APM no problem, i meet almost every day at least 1-2 40apm diamond terrans, sometimes even P, and they arent genious or anything, just do some abusive stuff.
So if you are below mid-tier diamond it means you etiher
1.have little to no understanding of the game
2. Got 0-40 APM
3. You got stuck in Plat because Ladder fails.
4. You do not ladder but play with your gosu clanmates
Mid-tier diamond is like C or C+ at best on iccup in BW i'd say, at best, so NO a Bronze newbie have no understanding. I thaught a friend of mine 1 rush build and he made it to platinum easily, with no considerable RTS knowledge whatsoever (he plays WoW)
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D+/C- iCCup players in BW can easily make it to mid-tier Diamond. I have been low C- at best in BW (as zerg) and am ~600 diamond (as zerg).
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That's totally wrong, sir, right now the game isnt set in stone, and it requires less apm/mechanical skill then BW. You can make to Diamond with 4-50 APM no problem, i meet almost every day at least 1-2 40apm diamond terrans, sometimes even P, and they arent genious or anything, just do some abusive stuff.
So if you are below mid-tier diamond it means you etiher
1.have little to no understanding of the game
2. Got 0-40 APM
3. You got stuck in Plat because Ladder fails.
4. You do not ladder but play with your gosu clanmates
Mid-tier diamond is like C or C+ at best on iccup in BW i'd say, at best, so NO a Bronze newbie has no understanding. I thaught a friend of mine 1 rush build and he made it to platinum easily, with no considerable RTS knowledge whatsoever (he plays WoW)
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how you initially disagreed with me and continued to explain how you completely agree with me o.o
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Orbital Command costing gas is a bad decision. Not only does that force T to slow his tech by a lot but it also slows his economy by a lot as well.
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On August 18 2010 02:58 sparknineone wrote:Show nested quote +That's totally wrong, sir, right now the game isnt set in stone, and it requires less apm/mechanical skill then BW. You can make to Diamond with 4-50 APM no problem, i meet almost every day at least 1-2 40apm diamond terrans, sometimes even P, and they arent genious or anything, just do some abusive stuff.
So if you are below mid-tier diamond it means you etiher
1.have little to no understanding of the game
2. Got 0-40 APM
3. You got stuck in Plat because Ladder fails.
4. You do not ladder but play with your gosu clanmates
Mid-tier diamond is like C or C+ at best on iccup in BW i'd say, at best, so NO a Bronze newbie has no understanding. I thaught a friend of mine 1 rush build and he made it to platinum easily, with no considerable RTS knowledge whatsoever (he plays WoW) I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how you initially disagreed with me and continued to explain how you completely agree with me o.o
Nom i dont think i do, you said "A "bronze newbie" can have a good understanding of many important issues that may need to be dealt with".
And i said it's wrong, and i explained it, as bronze nebies have no idea about the game, ctually not just Bronze newbies. I might missed an additional point of your post, but i cant seem to find what.
Btw anyone answeing on the Dimaga winning a tourney issue?
On August 18 2010 02:59 Amprophet wrote:
Orbital Command costing gas is a bad decision. Not only does that force T to slow his tech by a lot but it also slows his economy by a lot as well.
So basicly you saying OC is slowing down Terrans economy? :D   =] xD ><
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Players shouldn't be able to mass support units, it's too much like Wc3:RoC.
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Good. I am korean zerg player. I totally agree with this.
Zerg is worst. Now korean zerg sink into the pit of despair.
David Kim only love terran. he is stupid.
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It might seem drastic but maybe make lair upgrade require no gas? Maybe not even a spawning pool so lair before queen is viable (that's probably overkill). But really the problem with zerg in general is that their 1 base play is so limited that every race can deal with it. Getting out enough lings/blings to deal with early pressure just kills economy, makes it way too easy for any race to even fake pressure to make zerg waste larva.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I just saw DIMAGA won the tournament AS TERRAN. According to my experience and words from DIMAGA and Sheth, I think Terran is too easy to play.
Please don't tell me you are talking about Go4SC2 #29 where DeMuslim and Dimaga race switched in the finals and fucked around -_-?
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On August 17 2010 15:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 15:19 terranghost wrote:
Almost every other unit with long range in the game requires a research of some sort to obtain that range.
Ghost-build nuke
tank-research siege mode
Collosus-thermal lance
corruptor/BLord-I consider the morph from corruptor to BLord a very expensive research.
BC-yamato
Thor-nothing
Viking-nothing
You do realize that both of the long range units actually only have that long range against air? If you start arguing about range I start arguing about Mutalisk speed (3.75), which is much higher compared to Viking speed (2.75). It is just pointless to argue this IMO, because otherwise we will start with a game with only one race and everything consisting of upgrades and only your choice of upgrades will determine what will make you different from the opponent. That isnt Starcraft however, so please stop trying to bring some "balance" into the game by trying to make things equal. The Thor range is made up for by the fact that he is horribly slow and the Viking range is made up for by the fact that they can not shoot ground unless they transform (and transformation takes time).
Yes I do realize both of those only have long range against air only and if you read my post again you realize that I wasn't bitching. Simply making an observation. "It is pointless to agrue"? Who is argueing?
All I did was state an opinion that I believe that any ranged attack should have some sort of cost before you use it even if it is small. Such as the Siege tank's siege mode research. It is only 100/100 but imagine what that would do to a terran timing push with tanks involved if they did not have to research it. If all of a sudden you notice a bc fleet your opponent had been hiding by building the starports off in a corner somewhere and you did not see them. What would be the logical terran response? If I have a starport without a reactor lets go fly it to a reactor real quick and lets shit out 6 vikings then I can kite those bc's endlessly if I can kill the ones with enough energy for yamato first. But if you have to research the viking range first then a poor player who fails to scout out such a dramatic tech switch would be punished.
That is my opinion I am no means arguing I am simply stating that I thought that idea was good. If you do not that's fine.
Btw it is common knowledge that it is mutas already do quite well vs vikings. The main idea is corruptors which are the unit you usually need to build vs vikings because the terran player will probably have a thor or 2 which will dramatically push the fight in the vikings favor. However, corruptors can get kited by vikings especially if they can run behind turrets.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 18 2010 02:14 hetpotatis wrote:Alright, prepare yourself for a long ass post... I've been playing Zerg extensively these last days on the ladder (top 20 in diamond) and after losing constantly to Terran, I've been thinking a lot about this MU these last few days. I haven't read the entire thread (still working on it), so some of these changes may already be suggested, but this is what I have. First of all, great OP, it covers lot of ground on why the imbalance is so present. Now, basically what the imbalance is all about is that T has way more options early game then Z because a) their tech is not hard to get, b) their defense is solid while going for this and c) they cannot be scouted efficiently while doing it. It leaves Z at a guessing game wondering what is coming. If you get your natural exp which is standard, you open yourself up for harassment a whole lot more, but more so than any other race because your defense is so bad compared to the others. This is no different than in BW. But since T has so many openings, you don't really know how to prepare because running back and forth between main and exp is not easy if you haven't connected your bases (which you most likely haven't that early in the game) and it just makes it easy for T that has very mobile openings (yes, you heard it right: T is more mobile than Z this early). If you manage to somehow survive the early game, the only thing you can do is try to tech for ultras or BL's as fast as you can while macroing your heart out, worrying about that giant mech push that's coming sooner or later. If you don't macro and tech, you won't be able to throw these giant 200/200 armies at the T in late game to break him and if you don't make defense while doing this, you open yourself up for a giant push that could be coming anytime, and it's going to kill you fast because of point 4 and 5 in the OP. You're on the defensive and have no idea what's coming, because of your inability to scan the T. And I haven't even mentioned how bad burrowed roaches, mutas, nydus' and OL drops are to break in to T's base... This style of play is not fair. And definately not fun. Not by a longshot. So I got to thinking... what are some changes that could be made between TvZ to actually balance it out, without screwing PvZ (which I find balanced and very fun) and PvT (which I unfortunately have no experience of). Italic text are descriptions of why I propose these changes. Proposed Zerg changes:- Creep mechanic changed. All Zerg units now gain half of the creep moving speed INNATELY. The other half still remains with an added effect of increased health regen while on creep and out of combat. This will make Z still want to spread their creep as far as possible and the other races will want to remove it, but it won't punish Z so badly without it. Without the creep, they're as fast as anybody else, but with it, they become most mobile of all races, which is one of their strengths. Also, the health regen will be an added incentive to spread creep but won't balance fights during actual combat.
- Burrow cost reduced to 50/50.
- Roach armor increased to 2.These last two changes will make burrowed roaches viable again and more accessible without the unholy cost of 250/250 just to see it getting shut down in an instant. Hell, going for early roaches to fend off reapers and hellions are now a perfectly valid choice. Hopefully this won't screw over P in PvZ since supply is still 2.
- Nydus' morphing time reduced and HP increased by 50-100. Improving Nydus' will make them valid again to break through. I find it laughable that when you actually managed to get one near a T expansion, he can just send workers at it and it'll be dead within 5 seconds. It should be enough HP/too little time for workers to bring it down, but somewhat of a small army should be able to break it down in time if awareness is high.
- Hydra HP increased by 10. I find it hilarious that Hydras' cost and supply has been increased, but only their damage has been improved, which is nullified by their slow speed. With the creep change and added HP, this will a lot more sense and open up more options for Z in mid game.
- Queen starting energy increased to 50. Somebody else suggested this and I think it's great. Now when the Queen finishes, it can cast Spawn Larvae and make a Creep Tumor right away to connect to your exp or make a path against your enemy or transfuse another Queen or Crawler for immediate defense. If T starts with 50 (and get it the same time as us for the same cost), why shouldn't we? It's just weird.
I had a lot of other changes in mind, most notably mutalisk range, but they are exactly the same as in BW so it wouldn't make sense, but I think these together with other changes will be enough. Proposed Terran changes:- Missile Turrets HP reduced by 50, damage reverted to 7+7(armored) and cost reduced by 25. Why were the turrets changed in SC2? They were perfect the way they were in BW. They were there to make you think if an attack was worth it, not nullify it all together. Turrets are way better in SC2 for just 25 minerals more. Not only do they give detection to burrowed units, they also completely shutdown muta harass and OL drops. They should provide some extra damage like our spore crawlers, not totally own everything in air.
- Orbital Command cost increased to 150/50. Seeing as the OC is a lot more robust than a Queen and so much better, I don't think an added cost of 50 gas is unreasonable. Remember, it gives free scouting and/or free minerals so if you want it, you'll have to invest a bit extra for it. It's stupid that a T can go for an early harass or cheese and still come out of with it a great economy because of the OC. This will also slow down tech options for T if they decide to go for it.
- Starport cost increased to 150/150. I don't get it. Why is the P Stargate 150/150 and not the Starport? Is it because of the Factory needed? Anyway, this will make it easier for Z not to worry about being so easily harassed by Vikings or Banshees in the beginning which is SO hard to see coming, yet so powerful and can set back the Z for hundreds of minerals, effectively costing them the game.
- Thor's can now be attacked by air-to-air units. Sure, ultras punish Thor's badly. But they're not their hard counter; tanks are. Yet Thor's come out so fast it's not even funny. I have to get a Pool, a Lair, an Infestor's Den, a Hive and then Ultralisk Cavern to make those while the T makes a Barracks, Factory and Armory and he's done. Zerglings get hammered by Thor's, don't believe the in-game guide. There should be other options earlier to get these guys. Besides, their air attack is still godly.
Other changes I had in mind were lesser range on Vikings and Thor's air attack but Thor's need to be a valid option for ground-to-air and Vikings still have shorter range and weaker damage than Corruptor's (I think, can't remember on the top of my head). I also suggested lesser tank damage, but Siege Tanks need to be a valid option for T to defend against Ultralisks. And of course, lastly: Proposed AI fixes:- Unit AI now targets repairing SCV's as a high priority.
Why isn't this already implemented!? Is a PF able to take down an entire army single-handed "working as intended"? If I can't get it down, I should at least be able to take down all the SCV's to hurt his economy for crying out loud. That's all I have. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the discussion on this issue. Please comment if you think these changes are valid or not.
I'll add another bit to my previous post... Got to thinking and the biggest problem are the Starports. Imagine if you were playing against Terran and there was no way he was going to harass you with either Vikings nor Banshees or cliff drops for that matter... wouldn't that solve a whole bit? Now you have to worry about reapers, hellions, bio pushes mostly, and that's it. Zerg's biggest problem is anti-air in the early stages of the game. This can be scouted when fighting P but can't when facing T.
I don't know how much this will screw up T's other MU's but I can imagine and that's not fun for them. The only thing I've done is by abusing the Extractor thingie (building, canceling, repeat) which will slow their gas income considerably. But it doesn't negate it. He can still go for air, I just have a bit more time (and I still open myself up for pushes going for anti-air).
Just thoughts... I would however want too see a change to creep and Z's overall movement speed most of all.
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Perhaps a simple solution would to increase the cost of scans to 75 energy. Terrans often seem to have too much energy lying around.
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some great insight and intelligent words by the community! hopefully these intelligent discussion make it to the ears and eyes of those in charge of balancing the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 03:01 Geo.Rion wrote:
Btw anyone answeing on the Dimaga winning a tourney issue?
It's true, but Demuslim was off-racing Z as well. Dimaga's offrace beating Demuslim's offrace pretty much doesn't tell us anything.
@MasterAsia:
I like this section, and agree with everything in it:
I was A- Zerg on iccup and I play TvZ a lot. But I can hardly take down any Zerg who is B- or better. It is a huge difficulty when playing as a Terran. You have to worry about everything. Early harass, early push, a black map, lurker threat, the dark swarm, the plague, the counter attack at any time, the defending of any base... You have a lot to do to become a good Terran. For example, you have to overreact if you saw just 2 speedlings when you FE. A miscontrol will lose almost your entire army. Everytime I felt ZvT is hard, I turned to play TvZ and realized how difficult it is.
In SC2, at first I thought it should work the same way. Terran is powerful and difficult to play. On the first day of my terran playing (I absolutely never played it except for the campaign and a few random 2v2s), I was shocked by the ease of playing as Terran. My first 4 games were against an 800+ diamond zerg and I killed him 4-0 without letting him sending anything across the middle of the map. I fully understand why DIMAGA can win the tournament as Terran. It is way too easy to play. Compared to BW, too few things to worry about. T is almost always in an aggressive position, even in the very early game.
But I would advise taking out the line above it about Dimaga > Demuslim. Both players were offracing, and it really just detracts from your point.
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It's a shame that a single thor can counter something like half a dozen mutas or more, and they grow exponentially in strength. For antiair honestly three thors can handle any amount of mutas
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I race swapped with my friend one time (a B- Terran). 150/200 1-1 Hellion/Thor/Raven army vs 200/200 3-3 Hydra/Ultra/Ling... I raped ezpz... Had to send a few SCV's to patch up my thors and fuck with zergling's AI after the big battle and just spammed hellions out of fax with reactors...
3 base terran (Main, nat and island) on LT vs 6 base zerg btw...
That was the FIRST and ONLY time I ever played terran...
I mean how spoiled are these Terrans? We all like good win-rates... but bashing zergs bcuz you're scared something will get patched and you, all of a sudden, will start losing games is just ridiculous!!! GROW UP! Lol
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EPT
