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On August 18 2010 19:03 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 18:19 heishe wrote:
Not a single zerg has huge problems with Bio Terran. Bio Terran is completely fine.
That's so typical for zerg players to say. Terran bio is not fine vs zerg, it's weak as hell vs banelings. A gold player with banelings can easily beat a diamond player with bio. Zerg players know how imbalanced banelings are, but they are smart enough to not mention it. If you don't go mech vs zerg then you die, and the replays I saw in the previous days confirm this. Ofcourse this is not the case if the zerg doesn't make banelings. I'm 100% sure that if blizzard makes mech worthless vs zerg (so the terrans have to go bio), that we will see a lot of terran complain. 130 food terran vs 110 food zerg (I saw that happening in a game on steppes between dimaga and a terran)? No problem! Zerg wins easily (hi banelings). About all those top terran players "rising from nowhere": almost all the top terran players are ex-BW or ex-WC3 topplayers. Name me 5 terran topplayers that weren't top at another RTS. I would like to invite some zergs to see this replay: http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/516-sarens-vs-orly/
You are not meant to win the game with 2 types of units.. I don't play terran, but maybe add hellions or Tanks to kill banelings?
It's the same as saying: "Zerglings are weak as hell vs. helions with blue flame".. Yes, they are supposed to counter those units.
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On August 18 2010 19:03 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 18:19 heishe wrote:
Not a single zerg has huge problems with Bio Terran. Bio Terran is completely fine.
That's so typical for zerg players to say. Terran bio is not fine vs zerg, it's weak as hell vs banelings. A gold player with banelings can easily beat a diamond player with bio. Zerg players know how imbalanced banelings are, but they are smart enough to not mention it. If you don't go mech vs zerg then you die, and the replays I saw in the previous days confirm this. Ofcourse this is not the case if the zerg doesn't make banelings. I'm 100% sure that if blizzard makes mech worthless vs zerg (so the terrans have to go bio), that we will see a lot of terran complain. 130 food terran vs 110 food zerg (I saw that happening in a game on steppes between dimaga and a terran)? No problem! Zerg wins easily (hi banelings). About all those top terran players "rising from nowhere": almost all the top terran players are ex-BW or ex-WC3 topplayers. Name me 5 terran topplayers that weren't top at another RTS. I would like to invite some zergs to see this replay: http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/516-sarens-vs-orly/
hmm ima take this one.
Im zerg, ok ok i agree that my one time use suicide unit that kills marines easily yet only dinks the armour of other units is completly imbalanced. we need it nerfed so it only does 15 damage.
now i have admitted the obvious truth that us zerg players have been hiding perhaps you can admit to some of the things that T players have that is imbalanced?
sarcasim there, though honestly banelings imbalanced?
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It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat.
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I am not a zerg player, i mainly play toss but i agree to most of the op's statements. esspecially the part "terran is so easy to play", it is frickin scary if you rolled toss from beta to release and now check out terran play, which kinda can be played with a-move and rallying units.
i checked out playing a bioball and do a go after stim research is ready, it is ridiculously easy to play in comparison of the investment to stop such a push. wether scouted or not neither zerg nor toss have the appropriate counters that early or need to cut eco or units to get them fast, it is always in tier 2+ to stop a tier 1, 1.5 ball.
toss is able to stall time right. great zerg does not have forcefields and afaik it was said already that marauders eat spinecrawlers for breakfast. so i can just imagine how zerg feel atm.
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On August 18 2010 19:40 Sadistx wrote:
It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat.
ok. so being completely unable to attack a Terrans choke because of 2 siege tanks without spending 3x the resources while the T goes make dinner isnt OP.
but a tier 2/2.5 unit that is a spellcaster using a spell that manually requires aim followed by a surge of a one use unit to combat one type of unit (well actually marines and maruder ball) being able to kill COST EFFECTIVELY is OP?
2 siege tanks added to a BIO army can incredibily reduce damage done by banelings.
also positioning maruders infront of marines again hugely reduces damage done.
ling/bling/infestor is our answer to bio armys. heaven forbid zerg actually have something to counter T.
sorry, i feel like im jumping down peoples throats. i mean no offense.
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On August 18 2010 19:40 Sadistx wrote:
It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat.
Im not sure if you are telling us that its unfair to tech to lvl 2.5 (and research Fungal Growth) to stop Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 unit combination.
Did I understand you correctly?
If that its correct, then can we have hydras for tier1? Battlecruisers kill hydras like no tomorrow, so its fine.
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On August 18 2010 19:54 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:40 Sadistx wrote:
It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat. Im not sure if you are telling us that its unfair to tech to lvl 2.5 (and research Fungal Growth) to stop Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 unit combination. Did I understand you correctly? If that its correct, then can we have hydras for tier1? Battlecruisers kill hydras like no tomorrow, so its fine.
ha ha the terran players will be fine with that change. but they want our queen to tier 3.
because 4 extra larva every 40 seconds is so OP.
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On August 18 2010 18:12 MasterAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 18:07 Nadagast wrote:
I'm curious why more zergs don't use burrowed Banelings to get map control vs a Bio Terran. They're pretty much stop lurkers except better, you'll force the Terran to wait for Ravens to push you. you wont. Good terran scan all the way around. One good scan will almost completely ruin your strategy. I played some really good players they scan very often. They outmacro with mass command centers all around the world.
I'd like to think I'm a good Terran player. I'm talking more early game before Raven tech will be out if he has any substantial number of marine marauder. Like when he's on 2 bases and you're on 2-3 bases. So many Terrans push out without mobile detection. Yes, he *might* get lucky and scan a few of your banelings, but as long as you don't put 20 in the same spot, you won't lose much (5 banelings?) and you can set up multiple traps on the map. He'd have to be very lucky to scan all your baneling traps. Even just 5 banelings, when detonated under a marine marauder ball, do a huge amount of damage and will likely cripple his push instantly. He might get lucky and scan one ball but if you have 4-5 traps you have a good chance of hitting him. If the metagame changes to baneling traps being common, Terrans will be forced to rush up to Ravens quicker and have a smaller army.
I'm talking about bio TvZ or bio + tank TvZ (since pure bio is in zerg's favor I think). I wish people would differentiate between bio and mech when they complain about TvZ.
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I haven't won with bio against a Zerg who went muta/ling/bling, it's just so hard to micro, zerglings absorb all the dmg while banelings/mutas rip apart your army.
With some sicko micro i think you could counter it, but hey good luck focus firing all the banelings while there's 3472534 zerglings near them >.<
So yea preety much every game i gotta go mech which is boring to play, so slow and all about position.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 19:10 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:03 Dente wrote:On August 18 2010 18:19 heishe wrote:
Not a single zerg has huge problems with Bio Terran. Bio Terran is completely fine.
That's so typical for zerg players to say. Terran bio is not fine vs zerg, it's weak as hell vs banelings. / Thats so typical for a Terran player to say. "hurr durr zerg has one hard counter vs one of our strats, it's way too strong please nerf it so that banelings don't counter bio anymore". congrats.
You do know that Idra has said that if Zerg weren't limited to doing defensive 1-base builds, and actually went into the midgame on even footing that bio would be unplayable because of banelings and infestors?
Of course, this isn't a bad thing. Every unit composition need not (and indeed arguably shouldn't) be viable in every matchup.
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On August 18 2010 19:59 Andr3 wrote:
I haven't won with bio against a Zerg who went muta/ling/bling, it's just so hard to micro, zerglings absorb all the dmg while banelings/mutas rip apart your army.
With some sicko micro i think you could counter it, but hey good luck focus firing all the banelings while there's 3472534 zerglings near them >.<
So yea preety much every game i gotta go mech which is boring to play, so slow and all about position.
Again, one more time.
Marines (Tier 1) + Marauders (Tier 1.5)
Vs
Zerglings (Tier 1) + Banelings (Tier 1.5) + Mutas (Tier 2.5)
And you said that they crush you? Is it unfair? 1 Building + 1 upgrade vs 3 buidings + 1 upgrade?
How can you complain about that? Its like if a Zerg stays at base massing zerglings and then whine cause Battlecruisers kill him.
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On August 18 2010 19:49 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:40 Sadistx wrote:
It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat. ok. so being completely unable to attack a Terrans choke because of 2 siege tanks without spending 3x the resources while the T goes make dinner isnt OP. but a tier 2/2.5 unit that is a spellcaster using a spell that manually requires aim followed by a surge of a one use unit to combat one type of unit (well actually marines and maruder ball) being able to kill COST EFFECTIVELY is OP? 2 siege tanks added to a BIO army can incredibily reduce damage done by banelings. also positioning maruders infront of marines again hugely reduces damage done. ling/bling/infestor is our answer to bio armys. heaven forbid zerg actually have something to counter T. sorry, i feel like im jumping down peoples throats. i mean no offense.
The problem is the counter is too good. It requires less micro than storming (no need to predict direction since it's instant) and deals enough damage by itself to the bio to make it cost effective even without the baneling mechanic.
Your comment about siege tanks and marauders is simply not true. On creep the speed of baneling/ling is significant enough that you can only get 1 shot from the tanks and the cloud of Z units will get a surround on the bio ball no matter how well you micro.
You also seem to forget FG affects every unit in the game and can be used to prevent much more expensive units from moving away until your main army can kill them essentially for free.(viking/medivac)
On August 18 2010 19:54 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:40 Sadistx wrote:
It's not banelings by themselves that are imbalanced, it's the combination of Fungal Growth (which should require research btw, being the most OP spell in the game) and banelings, which make it impossible to dodge, micro or retreat. Im not sure if you are telling us that its unfair to tech to lvl 2.5 (and research Fungal Growth) to stop Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 unit combination. Did I understand you correctly? If that its correct, then can we have hydras for tier1? Battlecruisers kill hydras like no tomorrow, so its fine.
Yes you can, but then protoss players would lose every game vs Z, so it's not an option. Fungal growth isn't "just" effective against tier 1 and tier 1.5, it's effective against everything (vikings medivacs banshees in particular) and it's too good, considering it's a tier 2 ability that doesn't need to be researched.
It's a maelstrom that works on every unit type and deals damage and is lower tech than a DA. Yes, it's OP vs bio play. Neural parasite should be the given ability, not the fungal growth. NP is a MUCH worse spell, because it requires for the infestor to remain immobile, whereas with FG you can cast and run away, risking absolutely nothing.
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On August 18 2010 21:10 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:59 Andr3 wrote:
I haven't won with bio against a Zerg who went muta/ling/bling, it's just so hard to micro, zerglings absorb all the dmg while banelings/mutas rip apart your army.
With some sicko micro i think you could counter it, but hey good luck focus firing all the banelings while there's 3472534 zerglings near them >.<
So yea preety much every game i gotta go mech which is boring to play, so slow and all about position. Again, one more time. Marines (Tier 1) + Marauders (Tier 1.5) Vs Zerglings (Tier 1) + Banelings (Tier 1.5) + Mutas (Tier 2.5) And you said that they crush you? Is it unfair? 1 Building + 1 upgrade vs 3 buidings + 1 upgrade? How can you complain about that? Its like if a Zerg stays at base massing zerglings and then whine cause Battlecruisers kill him.
It's marines + marauders + medivacs if you want a fair comparison. Also let's count each tech lab and each reactor as a separate building. Also don't forget 2 ebays for fast 1-1. Only then can bio be on par with that combination.
And mutas aren't tier 2.5, they are just tier 2. Zergs don't have half-tiers.
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On August 18 2010 21:10 Aborash wrote:
Again, one more time.
Marines (Tier 1) + Marauders (Tier 1.5)
Vs
Zerglings (Tier 1) + Banelings (Tier 1.5) + Mutas (Tier 2.5)
And you said that they crush you? Is it unfair? 1 Building + 1 upgrade vs 3 buidings + 1 upgrade?
How can you complain about that? Its like if a Zerg stays at base massing zerglings and then whine cause Battlecruisers kill him.
Make it:
Marines (Tier 1) + Marauders (Tier 1.5)
Vs
Zerglings (Tier 1) + Banelings (Tier 1.5)
It's unfair that they crush the terran, yes indeed. For bio you need at least 3 raxes and lets call the techlabs an upgrade. Want medivacs? Add 2 more buildings then: factory and starport. That's 5 buildings.
Another note: I like it how zergs whine about terran being a not-micro race while zergs just 1a whole the time by themself. Okay, they micro with their infestors and lets say that burrow is "micro'ing" too,but besides these things they just attack like the terran does.
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Just making it slightly harder for terrans to early tech might be what is required. Marauders and Reapers are IMO too much of a threat in early game to be available by attaching a 50m/25v add-on for 25sec.
Zerg has to pay 150m/100v and wait 80sec PLUS pay 100m/100v and wait another 40sec just to unlock hydralisks. That a total of 250m/200v and 120sec. They can't really do this early because Lair and Queen cannot be built at the same time, so fast teching means zerg is lava starved.
Unlocking Marauders and Reapers? 200m/25v and a measly 85sec. Granted that's per barracks.
Reactors take 50m/50v and 50sec(twice as long as a tech labs) to build. Making the tech labs match the reactor's build time and cost would be a good start.
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What if a zerg unit had the broodling ability from the SC1 Queen, would that help?
My theory is that Blizzard has it all planned out for perfect balance but only once the 3 games are out.... in the meantime they are ****ed and don't know what to do/change to make it better while not screwing up their plans for the eventual 3-game balance.
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On August 18 2010 21:30 Dente wrote:
Another note: I like it how zergs whine about terran being a not-micro race while zergs just 1a whole the time by themself. Okay, they micro with their infestors and lets say that burrow is "micro'ing" too,but besides these things they just attack like the terran does.
Zerg:
Basicaly BEFORE engaging in ANY battle you must
1. Make sure your army is well positionned
2. Have at least 3 different control groups
3. Be aware of an escape route.
MAKE SURE YOU DO NO LET SIEGE TANKS SIEGE... else find a solution to make them move if (in most case) it's already too late send in some sacrificial units AND SPREAD THEM, failling to spreading will result in only 1 tank shooting... and finaly proceed
Than engage from at LEAST 2 different point to squeeze but 3 makes a huge difference
Make sure that your lings are controlled to circle/imprison the army, failling to do that will result in 412981 lings not hitting AT ALL.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO YOU WILL LOSE YOUR ARMY (unless it's a final battle and you made it to the 30mins + game)
get ready to pump new units AS you lose them cause the counter attack will finish you off....
When the counter attack arrive IF you were sucessful in making enough units you'll survive get ready to make drones.
Btw... I hope you didn't lose any 25 energy cool down on your queens while you were fighting.. if you did... well gratz! you can now heal zerglins with it!!
Protoss :
send in zealots 1st
hit G on your sentries
If you can find any terrain advantage use fields to block or force 1 by 1 unit to attack
micro your stalkers out as they are getting hit
Use feedback on ghosts or you'll ged emp'd and will lose badly
If you still have enough mana throw in some storms as your battle use your warp gate and DON'T miss a cooldown.
if you have immortals MAKE SURE TO FOCUS ARMORED TARGET they are useless vs light
Colossus? make sure you don't get hit by air or marauder stim focus micro them while you do everything else.
Terran:
Leave 1 siege tank on a cliff at your base and make sure to get this supply depot back up it will negate any sort of cheese when you move (in any case keep in mind that if focused your buildings CAN FLY!.. don't worry yoour 2-3 turrets will deal with any sorts of air problems
Be aware of where YOU want to attack.
Siege tanks
Press T engage win! Oh you came out with some losts? you know the energy you didn't spend on your orbitals? use them mule time.... produce in less time than it would take for a zerg to get an army back...
rince and repete till your get the free win!
yep yep!!
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On August 18 2010 20:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 19:10 heishe wrote:On August 18 2010 19:03 Dente wrote:On August 18 2010 18:19 heishe wrote:
Not a single zerg has huge problems with Bio Terran. Bio Terran is completely fine.
That's so typical for zerg players to say. Terran bio is not fine vs zerg, it's weak as hell vs banelings. / Thats so typical for a Terran player to say. "hurr durr zerg has one hard counter vs one of our strats, it's way too strong please nerf it so that banelings don't counter bio anymore". congrats. You do know that Idra has said that if Zerg weren't limited to doing defensive 1-base builds, and actually went into the midgame on even footing that bio would be unplayable because of banelings and infestors? Of course, this isn't a bad thing. Every unit composition need not (and indeed arguably shouldn't) be viable in every matchup.
Sure, and that's exactly what I'm saying. The terran is complaining because one of his 200 viable strategies can be countered.
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I played with you couple of times and your mass mutas and speedlings completely dominated my play. You said you are tired of all these harasses, but mass mutas in air effectively killed off most of the harass in mid to late game as it can chase down all Terran air units and even Hellions. The only way for Terran to beat mass mutas (more than 20 or so) is mass thors, which is slow to accumulate and has crappiest mobility - Terran has to reply on turrets while Thors are out in the field, but against 20 or 30 mutas, you need shitload of turrets to defend them. By the time Terran has either 5 Thors or 30 Marines, Zerg can have even more Zerglings (and few blings) to surround and kill off the marching army of Terran. If it's just ground units, I can somehow micro Marines back and forth to avoid surround of doublelings, but with extreme dps of Mutas, it is really difficult.
I'm not saying there is absolutely no problem in ZvT, but I just want to say that you seemed to have figured out a good play style against Terran and your Mutalisk control is something out of the ordinary. Rather than constantly complaining or waiting for the patch, why not show other Zerg players how to win against Terran?
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What are we, insta-fast learners and Z and P are retards?
To OP: Do you realize how freaking ridiculous your points?
Are you serious? Zerg fe-s like all the time, whine about Terran expands? Lool.
One word: Bullshit
The whole post is one big pile of junk comments, claiming that Zerg is owned in every way, brutally,
Have some manner and know where to stop
Its funny see retarted posts like that keep existing.
i love how u speak about manners when ur whole posts is a big fiasko of ignorance and flaming .
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EPT
