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On August 17 2010 02:10 Umie wrote:
are you kidding me?
banes vs. wall
banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats
one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great.
thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing?
bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol.
Banelings are quite the investment, each INDIVIDUAL baneling costs 25/25, which greatly can reduce the tech window for Zerg as he has to invest in gas. Banelings are really not efficient at doing anythings but killing Marines and soft countering Hellions really.
Thors get countered by Hydra? Lol, if they can stand the Siege Tank fire long enough, or wait the two hits by the Thor. Hydralisks are not cost effective against the Thor, nothing is in the Zerg arsenal.
... which is why BC's aren't used or even if you wanna go that far whined/complained about.
On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank.
If only Infestors could survive long enough to get a NP on a sieged tank, that'd be beautiful :D
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How many thing are scary to a early game terran in ZvT? baneling bust (maybe, if the wall is weak) mutas (that aren't even game ending). two things.
For zerg: hellions, reapers, banshee rush, tanks on cliff, thor drop, big bio push, early tank + bio push, etc. if any of them are remotely successful the game is won, but if they fail they can just sit behind the wall and be no worse off. totally risk free.
I didn't make this but here some music for you guys to post in this thread with: Starcraft Battle Rap - Terrans OP
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Thor are a very scary unit in general. Zerg don't have a unit that is cost effective against them btw.
Goliath weren't that strong.
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On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank.
Sieged Siege Tank Range of 13
NP Range of 9
Don't be a fucking moron... if you were being sarcastic then sorry. If you weren't... well then the moron thing stands.
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On August 17 2010 02:32 EppE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank. Sieged Siege Tank Range of 13 NP Range of 9 STFU
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Either way, I recommend editing out the "STFU" before you get warned.
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On August 17 2010 02:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:32 EppE wrote:On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank. Sieged Siege Tank Range of 13 NP Range of 9 STFU Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Either way, I recommend editing out the "STFU" before you get warned.
Done 
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I play Protoss but totally agree with the OP. I have thought about buffing hydras, making the hydra den a tier 1 building, but in the end none of these things really help out the zerg player. I know that when I face a zerg player, he is definitely going to struggle against my army in the mid game, where immortals and Colossi just melt away any force he has... The new thing seems to be 8 pooling to get that early rush, and if they win, they win, if they lose, it wouldn't have been any different. That is sad, give Zerg some love. I hate to beat a dead horse, but the Lurker would seriously change a lot of things.
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Long time lurker here. Just registered here to say that the OP is correct in this.
As a low level diamond random player here, I love it when I get a TvZ matchup (even though I prefer to play toss) ,since I know the only threat I can face is a baneling bust initially. If I defend against that I can usually make a nice MM, tank army of 1 base, do a early mid game push and win (at the same time expanding). I don't even need good macro to pull off a win here. On the other hand I hate zvt due to the same reasons.
I also watch a number of pro matches and I think there are two things here that would fix this matchup (also TVP to a small extent)
1. Fix mules. A lot of the times its the mineral army(helions/mm) accompanying tanks/thors that prevents the counters for these units from doing any work. Its also very forgiving to 60apm players like me since after a few minutes of forgetting to mule i can come and have 2/3/4 mules on my base, getting a burst of minerals and insta replenishing my mineral army. One easy fix is to have mules have a large cooldown so that only really good players can have 2 mules at any time. It also stops the problem where someone floats an exp to gold and then just mules from there.
2. Give roach 1 supply (as suggested earlier) and 0 armor. Have a lair upgrade which returns back its armor 1 armor or a hive upgrade which gives it 2 like the ultra. Either this or make hydras cheaper and 1 supply since zerg lacks a good 1 supply unit. It goes from 0.5 supply straight to 2 which is broken.
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On August 17 2010 02:30 realiz3 wrote:How many thing are scary to a early game terran in ZvT? baneling bust (maybe, if the wall is weak) mutas (that aren't even game ending). two things. For zerg: hellions, reapers, banshee rush, tanks on cliff, thor drop, big bio push, early tank + bio push, etc. if any of them are remotely successful the game is won, but if they fail they can just sit behind the wall and be no worse off. totally risk free. I didn't make this but here some music for you guys to post in this thread with: Starcraft Battle Rap - Terrans OP
It is not quite as risk free as you would suggest in that if Z gets to counter the strategy at least fairly efficiently, Z will in fact be ahead. However, how efficient Z can counter what T chooses to do is a major question. Like the OP had pointed out, T has a really flexible set of strategies, and Z has to somehow deal with them. If we can in fact know that it will be a heavy marine push, for example, we would be able to have just enough blings to deal with the rines and pose a threat to the T. However, what happens when we scout a 1/1/1 from T? We don't really have a solution. We can try to see what units the T chooses to show us and make an educated guess, but the usefulness of such information is always questionable at best. Now, I think scouting yielding imperfect information is fine, but the same kind of imperfect information from a T's point of view is that...they don't care, whereas for Z it is the game's turning point based on what you guess. Without the early game Z gaining either some threat to dictate T's responses or gaining greater flexibility [somehow], the situation boils down to what you have, in that T will essentially be unpunished for whatever they do because rarely can Z get a perfect response to T.
On August 17 2010 02:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:32 EppE wrote:On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank. Sieged Siege Tank Range of 13 NP Range of 9 EDITED Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Either way, I recommend editing out the "STFU" before you get warned.
Won't help him if you don't do it too
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On August 17 2010 02:40 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 17 2010 02:32 EppE wrote:On August 17 2010 00:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:On August 16 2010 23:59 cloudform wrote:On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote:
To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank. Sieged Siege Tank Range of 13 NP Range of 9 EDITED Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Either way, I recommend editing out the "STFU" before you get warned. Won't help him if you don't do it too
Pretty sure they don't warn if you edited!
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On August 17 2010 02:13 st3roids wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:10 Umie wrote:
are you kidding me?
banes vs. wall
banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats
one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great.
thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing?
bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol.
U must be watching rly poor terran wallins to have problems vs baneling busts srsly. barracks factory wallin cannt be breached unless u bring a gazzilion of banelings thus really scrweing up all midgame for zerg and if this all in fails is gg. One base roach ... u loosing all credibility here sorry i dont think u play in diamond league mr and ill stop comment here cause ur full of it
if youre in top 3 diamond, i guess i'll see you in game.
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Also another opening is to bunker rush at the guy's ramp so he can't expand yet we he sees roaches or tech coming, he can just salvage and go back, taking 0 economical damage other than the 2scvs mining
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On August 17 2010 02:46 Umie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 02:13 st3roids wrote:On August 17 2010 02:10 Umie wrote:
are you kidding me?
banes vs. wall
banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats
one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great.
thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing?
bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol.
U must be watching rly poor terran wallins to have problems vs baneling busts srsly. barracks factory wallin cannt be breached unless u bring a gazzilion of banelings thus really scrweing up all midgame for zerg and if this all in fails is gg. One base roach ... u loosing all credibility here sorry i dont think u play in diamond league mr and ill stop comment here cause ur full of it if youre in top 3 diamond, i guess i'll see you in game.
Sigh, I don't want to bother with this, but last time I checked top 3 diamond in US was like what, Huk and Davie and someone? Stop giving people your division rank - it doesn't mean a thing. At least use points which is, albeit barely, better as a way of measuring your level.
I mean seriously, last time I checked the top of my diamond division is like at a lol 550 points when people are in the 1ks easily. Yes points hardly help either, but seriously? People are already pegging 500~600 as 'mid' level diamond, yet that's the top of this division. So yeah, what does your top 3 diamond mean, sir?
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On August 17 2010 02:48 GxZ wrote:
Also another opening is to bunker rush at the guy's ramp so he can't expand yet we he sees roaches or tech coming, he can just salvage and go back, taking 0 economical damage other than the 2scvs mining
This makes me rageeeeee!
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On August 17 2010 01:31 Umie wrote:
Z have some very powerful counters to T openings. mass speedlings/banes utterly decimates any pure mech opening. one base roach play is very strong against a hellion opening. mass speedlings/banes into fast mutas can majorly screw a bio ball opening. mid/late game, rauders/thors are strongly countered by lings/banes/hydras. the broodlord hard counters all of terran ground, and if youre worried about viks, get a dozen mutas.
This paragraph was just plain painful to read.
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On August 16 2010 22:50 kidcrash wrote:
(1) The proper counter for mutalisk harass is thor, that's what it's for. I have no problem with thors
countering muta because of A. their cost and B. their mobility. However in conjunction with turrets and vikings there are just way too many options. This allows the terran to be extremely flexible while leaving muta harass as pretty much LOL. Turrets should be a deterrence to muta harass, instead they provide 100% nullification.
(2) I'm sorry let me rephrase my wording then. Bunkers have the potential to be 100% free investments in the long term. There I fixed it.
(3) The difference is you have to pay for tunneling claws as well as the cost for burrow. Once ravens are out your advantage from burrow is pretty much negated whereas stim stays consistently powerful throughout the entire game.
(4) I think a small delay might be an understatement and that delay might have a huge impact when dealing with the initial muta harass. Things like that can open up timing windows for the zerg which could actually provide momentum shifts making them the aggressor (wow imagine that zerg with a timing window against terran)
(5) Some units in SC2 overkill.... so I guess their whole system is obsolete then. The problem stems from, you're giving no overkill to a unit with the highest range in the game, that has high end damage plus splash. Then you add in the fact that the counter to tanks (mutalisks) have so many options for dealing with. Go ahead and choose between marines with stim, viking, thor, turret, or even heat seeker missile.
(1) You only counter Mutalisks with Thors where the Thors actually are and - having the mobility advantage - you would be dumb to attack spots where there are Thors with Mutalisks. Terrans do NOT want to build Thors just to stand around in their base and look pretty. If you make turrets useless even more what are they built for? Just for detection? Allow me a short ROFL there ...
(2) The primary function of a bunker is to serve as a defensive position, thus it is very very likely that it will get killed. I really would like to see an end to this endless mantra about bunkers being free. In any case it is needs to be compared to Spine / Spore crawlers being able to uproot themselves and plant themselves somewhere else. Bunker salvage needs to stay at 100% and its not the Terrans fault that Zerg are too lazy / stupid to bring some base defenses (which could increase their army supply above 200) to support a big attack OR to even to control some paths against small harrassing forces (like Reapers or Hellions) who might want to bypass your forces for harrassing.
(3) Initial Muta harrass? What does that have to do with getting burrow? Only about one in a thousand of all Zerg players gets burrow ever in their games. It is not a question of rushing it and certainly burrowing claws only makes sense when you have a few Roaches out already.
(4) I am sorry, but I think it might ruin TvP if you have to counter Void Rays with Vikings. As soon as these are charged up - and since they can shoot while moving - you need a slight advantage in range to be able to outmicro. In any case the range doesnt really affect TvZ, so I dont see a point.
(5) Mutalisks are NOT the only solution to cracking a line of sieged tanks. I think i already mentioned TLO in the Day[9] daily, where he made Sean gulp with the statement that Ultralisks are quite good ... and since then many Zerg have started making this - until that time - rarely ever built unit. TLO even mentioned the way to use them - Ultras first and then rush in the swarm, but I guess the denial from some prominent Zerg players (at the time of that daily there had already been some "Terran is IMBA and we tried everything" statement from Asia) stops their fanboys from learning this strategy from a not so good european. The real "problem" of Terran mech isnt the siege tanks, but rather the Hellions which can screw up the Zerg economy very very early on, so please stop the mantra about smart firing or get air superiority and Brood Lords.
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On August 17 2010 01:31 Umie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
as someone who's been playing terran since 1998, and been in sc2 beta from the first wave of invites, i'll have to politely disagree with you OP. you do get two points right: zerg are tougher to learn than terran which is why we are seeing less of them, and lurkers brought quite a bit of depth to BW.
T dont actually have that many more viable openings than Z. reapers, ghosts, tanks, dropships (?), and vikings are very situational early game. this leaves us with hellions (to mech, fast expand or switch to bio), bio ball (to fast expand and/or mech), and shee harass.
secondly, Z have some very powerful counters to T openings. mass speedlings/banes utterly decimates any pure mech opening. one base roach play is very strong against a hellion opening. mass speedlings/banes into fast mutas can majorly screw a bio ball opening. mid/late game, rauders/thors are strongly countered by lings/banes/hydras. the broodlord hard counters all of terran ground, and if youre worried about viks, get a dozen mutas.
thirdly, as mentioned above, lurkers did bring that x factor to ZvT in BW but now we have the infestor. ive seen some extremely creative and effective uses of the infestor.
in conclusion, while i may not be one of the top terrans in NA, i am ranked 3rd to 5th in my division. my experience against Z has been opposite of yours. i find Z have a plethora of viable strategies against T, and some fairly strong counters. in addition, i much prefer ZvT in sc2 compared to BW.
are you kidding me?
banes vs. wall
banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats
one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great.
thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing?
bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol.
I'm sorry if it seems offensive... but it's not ment to be.
You might have been playing terran since 1998 but you surely haven't played terran at an high level or even made it to C+ cause I have never heard of you. You are litteraly speaking without knowing anything right now!
Saying that T doesn't have "more" openings than Z is being totaly ignorant on the matter. I'm sorry but to think that your 1st building can get "marines, marauders, reapers" and than your second building can get you "hellions and tanks" compared to "zerglins OR roaches OR banelings" isn't giving you much options is totaly retarded. Hell terrans dictate the zerg opening as if zergs fail to scout the opening it can lead into a quick terran win and I'm sorry if you are still getting ling busted after (5) five months (don't know if you got beta or not, doesn't matter much) but... if it's the case you still have ALOT to learn from your race eventho you seem to have played it till 1998!!
Also... pro terrans such as qxc showed us that it is POSSIBLE to own roaches with hellions with good micro, lz showed us that it is also doable with reapers and many other showed us the immense flaws that zerg has by abusing hellions and banshees/vicking together. To say that zerg has stronger build orders than terran is again to be super ignorant of terran possibilities.
Infestors, altho I agree that is super good... comes way too late in the game and with its recent nerfs "NP being a research and a 12 sec ability" makes it kinda dump for the gaz cost. It also comes VERRY late in the game due to the super harass.
Also saying that 1 base play is good vs terran is again pretty ignorant on the match up. Yes it can do so far but at one point if you're not taking an expand and start droning... terrans will have 1 expo on you since harass on a terran is almost impossible. I'm sorry but "muta harass is getting owned by 2-3 missle turret or 1 thor. Nydus is a lol cheese that works 2% of the time and massive drops comes only SUPER late in the game.
and on your second post I can see that you have strange "mecanics" or again you're just ignorant on the ZvT matter (I vote for the former).
Altho I agree that zerg players arn't at their best right now... as an owner of 3 accounts (one of each race, all in diamond @ 500+) and terran being my highest altho I played most of the time with the zerg one... I can see that there is a staight problem in the ZvT matchup.
Put it on the lacks of units, maps that favors terran or any other bullcrap that you want to put it but I think that the OP did an EXCELLENT job at showing what's going wrong and to all terrans saying that zergs needs to use mobility... well I play both races and I find that terran is WAYY more mobile and covers alot more than Z can. Nydus isn't a solution.
On a final note... I want to point out that pros just to name some: IdrA, Dimaga, Sheth. Machine, SLush, Check (who said that he thinks about switching to protoss) and more. If those guys (they are the zergs figure) thinks that there is something wrong.... than MAYBE in your brains.. it should ring a bell no? .. unless you want to see TvT finals
that's what I have to say on the matter.
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On August 17 2010 03:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 22:50 kidcrash wrote:
(1) The proper counter for mutalisk harass is thor, that's what it's for. I have no problem with thors
countering muta because of A. their cost and B. their mobility. However in conjunction with turrets and vikings there are just way too many options. This allows the terran to be extremely flexible while leaving muta harass as pretty much LOL. Turrets should be a deterrence to muta harass, instead they provide 100% nullification.
(2) I'm sorry let me rephrase my wording then. Bunkers have the potential to be 100% free investments in the long term. There I fixed it.
(3) The difference is you have to pay for tunneling claws as well as the cost for burrow. Once ravens are out your advantage from burrow is pretty much negated whereas stim stays consistently powerful throughout the entire game.
(4) I think a small delay might be an understatement and that delay might have a huge impact when dealing with the initial muta harass. Things like that can open up timing windows for the zerg which could actually provide momentum shifts making them the aggressor (wow imagine that zerg with a timing window against terran)
(5) Some units in SC2 overkill.... so I guess their whole system is obsolete then. The problem stems from, you're giving no overkill to a unit with the highest range in the game, that has high end damage plus splash. Then you add in the fact that the counter to tanks (mutalisks) have so many options for dealing with. Go ahead and choose between marines with stim, viking, thor, turret, or even heat seeker missile. (1) You only counter Mutalisks with Thors where the Thors actually are and - having the mobility advantage - you would be dumb to attack spots where there are Thors with Mutalisks. Terrans do NOT want to build Thors just to stand around in their base and look pretty. If you make turrets useless even more what are they built for? Just for detection? Allow me a short ROFL there ... (2) The primary function of a bunker is to serve as a defensive position, thus it is very very likely that it will get killed. I really would like to see an end to this endless mantra about bunkers being free. In any case it is needs to be compared to Spine / Spore crawlers being able to uproot themselves and plant themselves somewhere else. Bunker salvage needs to stay at 100% and its not the Terrans fault that Zerg are too lazy / stupid to bring some base defenses (which could increase their army supply above 200) to support a big attack OR to even to control some paths against small harrassing forces (like Reapers or Hellions) who might want to bypass your forces for harrassing. (3) Initial Muta harrass? What does that have to do with getting burrow? Only about one in a thousand of all Zerg players gets burrow ever in their games. It is not a question of rushing it and certainly burrowing claws only makes sense when you have a few Roaches out already. (4) I am sorry, but I think it might ruin TvP if you have to counter Void Rays with Vikings. As soon as these are charged up - and since they can shoot while moving - you need a slight advantage in range to be able to outmicro. In any case the range doesnt really affect TvZ, so I dont see a point. (5) Mutalisks are NOT the only solution to cracking a line of sieged tanks. I think i already mentioned TLO in the Day[9] daily, where he made Sean gulp with the statement that Ultralisks are quite good ... and since then many Zerg have started making this - until that time - rarely ever built unit. TLO even mentioned the way to use them - Ultras first and then rush in the swarm, but I guess the denial from some prominent Zerg players (at the time of that daily there had already been some "Terran is IMBA and we tried everything" statement from Asia) stops their fanboys from learning this strategy from a not so good european. The real "problem" of Terran mech isnt the siege tanks, but rather the Hellions which can screw up the Zerg economy very very early on, so please stop the mantra about smart firing or get air superiority and Brood Lords.
I can't even get over the intense Terran bias you have... Thors have such a long range they'll hit mutas anyways.... can't believe you think 100% bunker salvage is fair whatsoever and isn't even remotely comparable to Spine crawlers. Maybe if I could plant a spine crawler at your base, force you to pull SCVs, have you lose tons of units to my garrisoned units, then exit it before it dies and get 100% of the resources back, it would be comparable. The fact is Bunker salvage is one of hte most retarded concepts, they essentially ARE free considering you can salvage them in like 2 seconds.
I use ultralisks always in ZvT and if the Terran plays it right Ultras still get slaughtered by Thor/Tank/Hellion combos. The hellions move to the front and tank all the ultra dmg, as ultras take like 4-5 hits to kill them, then the thors start tanking, and all the while they take mass siege tank fire. the ONLY way to kill the Terran is to set up a massive flank in a wide open space, which is essentially impossible with this map pool. Not to mention you add in vikings and broodlords are nearly negated.
EDIT: Just played a game yesterday where I had seven base Zerg vs 3 base Terran, and I had 5 base when he was on two base. He won by camping with sensor towers and moving out with a 200/200 army of the composition I just mentioned above (including the vikings). It steamrolled by Zerg army in seconds, couldn't do anything, even with around 8-9 ultras and mass ling and broodlords.
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I play random, and whenever I end up playing a terran player and random gives me zerg, while I am typing "gl hf" I'm saying :Shit... shit shit shit.
The op makes very good points. I find playing zerg horrible some times, though in rare instances I overwhelm and destroy.
Speedling speed allows me to harrass an enemy base while their army is in the field, I try to do this habitually now. Running the lings in also allows you to drop a nydus, as most don't expect a nydus during a ling runby and won't see it until it's too late. However, beyond this, there is little I have found to be extremely effective.
Against siege tanks and collsi with range upgrade, I feel nothing works aside from lucky/planned positioning, even then it may not work.
Early air causes huge problems for me as zerg when I don't see it coming, even then 2 queens may not be enough.
The zerg mid game seems stagnant. Everything I build is just hard countered. Not much to do really but out mass.
Ultras are supposed to be the answer to armored units, but when a few lings are in the way, or you are fighting in a choke, the ultras become resource sinks.
Above all else, I just apply early pressure and try to move roaches in fast with ling support, when this fails I pretty much start praying.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned thus far but another major reason T is so scary at the moment...
Is the rate of damage per second their unit ball has over Z and P. As soon as you engage the terran army, chances are 100% of the units are unloading, the time it takes for the zerg to conclave, the terran has already killed half your units..
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EPT
