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cloudform
United States16 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:45 Amber[LighT] wrote: To be honest if Contaminate stopped static defense ZvZ would be pretty broken if you're behind by a couple of mutas//roaches//lings. You could kill his overseers. | ||
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cloudform
United States16 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:37 Amber[LighT] wrote: The old contaminate ability did do this, but they removed it for some odd reason. I don't remember the patch transition but it used to be on the Corruptor with what you're suggesting. I didn't realize that, did it increase the damage done to the building as well (to help with breaking through walloffs, etc)? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:01 cloudform wrote: I didn't realize that, did it increase the damage done to the building as well (to help with breaking through walloffs, etc)? No, just the affect on stopping static defense from firing. | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
On August 16 2010 22:17 Rabiator wrote: (1) Right now the Spine Crawler takes 50 seconds to build and Bunkers take 30 and Photon Cannons take 40 seconds. Changing the Spine Crawler to 35 seconds wouldnt make them IMBA, because there would hardly be any built anyways. The only thing where this REALLY matters is ZvZ with 6-pool and Spine Crawler rush on your opponents creep. Thats where it is impossible to counter and the 50 seconds come from. (2) Why? 100/100 isnt expensive, because what does the Zerg need all his gas for early? Roaches? Other one-time research? (3) If you make it 24 seconds it might as well be permanent. There is no "saving throw" against this ability and to give the unit a chance to survive being mind controlled it needs a short duration! 1: Actually, it matters a whole lot in other situations. If you see an attack coming, and maybe you just lost all your units to that attack, your options for defense are: A: Build units. B: Build spine crawlers. Now, if you just spent all your larvae, option A isn't really an option you can do much about, so many will go for the only other option which is to throw down a lot of spine crawlers. Problem is, if the units are already heading your way they won't make it up in time before they're dead. Not only that, but it hurts your economy to lower your drone count to build them. My problem with spine crawlers are basically that you can't use them as a "response" but you have to put them down waaay before as a "what if". I don't really see them being a big issue in zvz as each spine crawler is 150 minerals he's not spending on zerglings/queens and drones he's not using to mine with. 35 second spine crawler may be going over the top, but 50 seconds are too long IMO. 3. So. You basically just want to be able to attack move to victory? Ever heard of ghost snipe? You can easily scout his infestation pit in advance, and if you have thors it's obvious that he wants to NP your units. By the time he has infestors up WITH NP upgraded, you can easily have cloaked ghosts that go in and snipe off any infestors, since they're basically like giant zits waiting to burst at your mirror. If his infestors doens't show up you can still snipe whatever other units he bought instead. 12 second neural parasite is just pathetic really. The duration is often out before the battle ends and then the thors are back in the fight to finish things off. I am actually of the belief that if NP was better and more zerg used infestors, there wouldn't be as much of an issue in TvZ. | ||
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KrUtiAL
United States41 Posts
Units are more expensive(supply wise) everything except ling/baneling is 2 food. I thought zerg was a micro intensive army massing race which depended on flanking good positioning and brute force and mass expanding... My thoughts on TvZ will keep me posting all day but im just going to leave it at when you compare terran to zerg, terran has a wide selection of units and many of them are cheap, with cheap upgrades, making so many different openings, and Terran has the ability to tech extremely fast compared to zerg Terran Barracks (150)60s > Factory (150/100)60s > Starport (150/100)50s Tech Labs(50/25)25s Zerg Spawning pool (200)65s > Lair (150/100)80s > Infestation pit (100/150)50s > Hive (200/150)100s (Not to mention Zerg is more reliant on expansions) which delays tech even more In short terran have relatively fast access to all units, including plenty of harass units, with nearly each build being effective off 1 base, with amazing wall offs and turtling abilities. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
Just like you could just Neural Parasite a tank. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
Heck check considering swap to protoss cause in his words he belives you cannot beat a good protoss player nomatter what. Idra in some posts here confirm that stating 2 gate harass is too strong and will handicapped zerg after midgame. I also beleve 1 base 4gate or 3gate robo timed push is almost impossible to defend aginst as zerg cause banelings dont do nearly much as vs bio. Imo u can have a shot in tvz if u by chance , insight or good scouting have the best compotition to deal with terran units and terran wont exploit cheese openingsa in the first minutes . you cannot beat a good protoss that plays safe. Zerg need buffs much more than other races need nerfs , but imo it needs too many buffs to deal with before the expansion. | ||
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Dietch
France45 Posts
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Umie
5 Posts
T dont actually have that many more viable openings than Z. reapers, ghosts, tanks, dropships (?), and vikings are very situational early game. this leaves us with hellions (to mech, fast expand or switch to bio), bio ball (to fast expand and/or mech), and shee harass. secondly, Z have some very powerful counters to T openings. mass speedlings/banes utterly decimates any pure mech opening. one base roach play is very strong against a hellion opening. mass speedlings/banes into fast mutas can majorly screw a bio ball opening. mid/late game, rauders/thors are strongly countered by lings/banes/hydras. the broodlord hard counters all of terran ground, and if youre worried about viks, get a dozen mutas. thirdly, as mentioned above, lurkers did bring that x factor to ZvT in BW but now we have the infestor. ive seen some extremely creative and effective uses of the infestor. in conclusion, while i may not be one of the top terrans in NA, i am ranked 3rd to 5th in my division. my experience against Z has been opposite of yours. i find Z have a plethora of viable strategies against T, and some fairly strong counters. in addition, i much prefer ZvT in sc2 compared to BW. | ||
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ocius
United States3 Posts
So again, my question is what option does Zerg have early game to fend off the ever-increasing number of harass strategies Terran (and to a lesser extent, Protoss) are learning how to execute? | ||
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Feranoir
Netherlands1 Post
I was wondering why those balance problems had not been seen during the beta. Did Blizzard just ignore Xpert players or made changes between the last beat and the release of final product ?? I'm not a good enough player to judge this on my own experience, but reading the forums I did get the impression some problems were already clear. I personally also play Zerg, I like the idea of that race the most. However, there is something missing. I recently started some experimenting with Protos and I feel that that race is much more fleshed out. I don't want to abandon Zerg and I really hope the race will get a little change soon, but I'm getting at the point were I don't grow so fast in skill any more with just improving macro and want to do some more interesting stuff in game. If Zerg is underpowered. I don't really know. Right now I have huge room to grow, so if they are or aren't, I can still climb the ladder. However to me it feels like I'm missing a single good(versatile) unit. I just don't know which one. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
T dont actually have that many more viable openings than Z. reapers, ghosts, tanks, dropships (?), and vikings are very situational early game. this leaves us with hellions (to mech, fast expand or switch to bio), bio ball (to fast expand and/or mech), and shee harass. um zerg has 2 opening only and thats speedlings or roaches , the variations like 14pool 15 hatch or 14 pool 15 gas 16 hatch doesnt affect units and cannot be consider variation. As terran u can open like 10 diferent strats , like bunker rush - check maka vs idra latest game , banshee rush as well and a plethora more openings which if ur not utilising is ur own fault. Zerg has only 2 opening and thats it. secondly, Z have some very powerful counters to T openings. mass speedlings/banes utterly decimates any pure mech opening. one base roach play is very strong against a hellion opening. mass speedlings/banes into fast mutas can majorly screw a bio ball opening. mid/late game, rauders/thors are strongly countered by lings/banes/hydras. the broodlord hard counters all of terran ground, and if youre worried about viks, get a dozen mutas. dont rly see the powerfull openings, speedlings vs wallin ...rly ? banelings consuming way too much gas thus creepling early muta builds thus u can exploit it to bring banshees and vikings , also steam marines and marauders off creep totally own banelings One base roch ... why i even need to comment on this Err thors dont get countered by hydras and thors primary objective is to counter mutas anyway but with auto repair it just doesnt matter what ur throing at. vikings can counter mutas fine with their 9 range and their dmg lol and the thor and it not even a contest broodlords , if u lucky enough to bring broodlords , terran hould bring battlecruicers by that time and is gg regardless. | ||
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Umie
5 Posts
banes vs. wall banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great. thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing? bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On August 17 2010 02:10 Umie wrote: are you kidding me? banes vs. wall banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great. thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing? bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol. U must be watching rly poor terran wallins to have problems vs baneling busts srsly. barracks factory wallin cannt be breached unless u bring a gazzilion of banelings thus really scrweing up all midgame for zerg and if this all in fails is gg. One base roach ... u loosing all credibility here sorry i dont think u play in diamond league mr and ill stop comment here cause ur full of it | ||
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
like bunker rush - check maka vs idra latest game Haha that is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen! | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 17 2010 02:10 Umie wrote: are you kidding me? banes vs. wall banes/speedlings into fast muta switch is deadly and one of the most popular zerg strats one base roach is how you counter hellions. just sayin. if you know how to transition out of it, it's great. thors very much do get countered by hydras. you know about focus firing? bc vs brood? if a terran invests in bc's, it's gg for him lol. Speedlings/banelings are a viable open, but any player who builds a decent wall is not threatened by a bust. The cost effectiveness of busting buildings with banelings... well there is no cost effectiveness, it's horribly inefficient. So any baneling bust requires a serious follow up in damage to actually pay for the effort. It's corruptors that counter bcs not broodlords. More and more I'm seeing Terrans & Protoss try stuff that'd be suicidial if zerg was in any state, but what they are in. Yeah their 'strategies' are bad, but it still shows how much many Terrans think they can get away with (and this is 500 diamond). I see Terrans just massing marines without care for banelings, building no units or 1 unit until insanely far into the game, or other ridiculous stuff. The Terran players are just so dismissive that they think they're able to get away with ridiculous stuff (and they probably must at least some of the time if they continue to do it). | ||
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SimpleHarmonicMotion
Sweden187 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
I get even more mad when the Terran exits his bunker with 50% health and salvages the goddamn bunker. I have to choose between trying to finish teh bunker off or chasing the reapers who are going to hit my probes after the queen left the Main to fight off the rush (leaving my main ready to be plundered by said reapers). | ||
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