EPTProtoss = easiest race, but hardest to micro?
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wuddersup
United States228 Posts
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Valhalla44
Bosnia-Herzegovina983 Posts
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Wayem
France455 Posts
Personally, I have hard time playing with zerg and think terran is way easier. And end up playing protoss because I just like it. Yet, I have a friend who tried all the three races and said « omg ? protoss ? terran ? seriously ? that’s damn hard i’m gonna stick with zergs ». I guess all depends of your gamer background and your general style of play. BTW, this question has been asked a lot of times. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
Stalkers get wtfpwned by marauders and, for cost without micro, die to roaches, get owned by lings, etc. Zealots without charge lose to marauders without great force-fields. Void Rays die to marines without good control, etc. The backbone of a Protoss army, Zealot/Stalker, loses to just about any other average army. The sentry is what makes it viable-- in that, you can only fight half an army at a time if it charges up your ramp, you can split armies, etc. I think it is VERY interesting and sexy design that has a uniquely Protoss feel. Stalkers are also very fast with good range, and do well with blink micro to move injured ones to the back or just move micro to keep the damaged ones out of harms way. Meanwhile, a+moved zealots are cost-effective against just about everything if you can control them well and use sentries to help them out. The balance between zealot/stalker/sentry is just so amazingly well done. Little details like Zealots being slower without charge so that you have to manually position your army for effectiveness when moving... the better cost-effectiveness of zealots but the fact that they can be kited infinitely without sentry support-- but sentries are expensive and delay your tech.... It just feels so different than a bio-ball. It feels so different from a roach/hydra ball. ETC. One of my favorite parts of this game. /end ejaculatory love post. | ||
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cuppatea
United Kingdom1401 Posts
For what it's worth, I'd rank the races like this: Ease of use: 1. Protoss 2. Terran 3. Zerg Strength of race: 1. Terran 2. Protoss 3. Zerg | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Protoss requires some micro too, but nothing too extreme, moving back and forth above your stalkers and casting some spells with smartcasting. Ehh nothing compares to the lurker-ling-darkswarm flank anymore either way On low levels though i dont know, when the armies are small and weakly composed, maybe Zergs a-moves to win, no idea actually | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:14 cuppatea wrote: I've played hundreds of games with both Protoss and Zerg and (imo) the difference between them, in terms of ease of use, is huge (with Zerg being far more difficult). going 14pool 15hatch into roach hydra is the single easiest thing you can do in this game and it CAN be a+moved. Even easier than Terran bio. Ling muta is even incredibly easy. Don't let (too many!) things shoot at your mutas while you try and snipe probes! If they move out, wtfpwn their units with the million lings you've made with the spare minerals! Going ling/baneling/infestor muta... on the other hand, requires LOTS of micro and control groups... but going blink stalker/high templar/phoenix isn't any easier. Generalizations are bad unless its about Terran. Going a really hard build like... well yeah Terran doesn't have anything thats particularly hard. They like to act like managing siege tanks is anything but boring, slow, and easy though  I guess 4gate is really easy and very successful, so if you do that, you're kinda playing easy-mode I don't know if the other easy modes-- 3rax MM, roach/hydra, are as successful, even though they are definitely even easier. I think the amount of 2gate proxiers and 4gaters leads to the perception of Protoss as easy mode.Also the insane n00b-killing ability of Void Rays also makes some people think Toss is easy. N00bs just dont know how to kill air units. On August 12 2010 23:17 Salv wrote: Who has been saying that Protoss is the easiest? If anything, the only thing I have been hearing is that Terran is too strong or that Terran units are imbalanced. The Protoss is easy comment was annoying and irritating in Brood War, I hope it doesn't continue in SC2 as well. Terran players try and say Protoss is the easy race so that they feel less ashamed of themselves.  | ||
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gREIFOCs
Argentina208 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:15 Geo.Rion wrote: On low levels though i dont know, when the armies are small and weakly composed, maybe Zergs a-moves to win, no idea actually Even though maybe they can get away with a-moving their army, a-moving in a key attack as zerg is a mistake. Basically you are going to sacrifice the first wave of zerlings, your roaches will have trouble finding the front, your hydras will soak up dmg that they shouldn't be getting, your mutas will fly over the bio ball, your ultras will get stucked between two zerlings, ect. a-moving as zerg always results in giving up 300 minerals before you are engaging.. | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
Zerg can pretty much just a-move and have a decent fight and Terran can just do the move-H-move-H crap with their MM ball. Anyone else agree? What about stalkers? you can do the same. I think alot of problems with people saying X is easier then Y or A is easier then Z is that they are comparing apples to oranges. Different units need to be micro'd differently. Hellions for example are move and attack a center unit, etc. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
Another reason protoss is easier is that you don't have to know how to balance drone production vs unit production, or use a fast expand build for maximum larva production. Chronoboost is a lot easier to use than spawn larva because you can let your energy build up and be fine, but once you miss an inject larva that's it, the opportunity has passed. Terran may only be marginally more difficult than protoss in terms of macro mechanics, but you are in more danger from early rushes and cheese as terran because marines are such relatively squishy tier 1 units compared to mass ling or zealots. So for a newer player I'd say, yes, protoss is the easiest to learn/use. | ||
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gREIFOCs
Argentina208 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:17 Ndugu wrote: going 14pool 15hatch into roach hydra is the single easiest thing you can do in this game and it CAN be a+moved. a-move your roach-hydra army and you'll have about half of your units attacking, and half running arround/waiting for the ones in the front to die. If hydras get in the front they get decimated and roaches are basically spectators. If you have more than 10 roaches, you have to move closer or begin the attack with a concave allready set up, or you'll be using 6 roaches. a moving isn't really the best way to manage your army. Period. Maybe in gold that's ok. But if you play against someone that knows what hes doing, you'll loose much more than him in every single exchange. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
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Pawsom
United States928 Posts
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Wayem
France455 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:31 Hider wrote: Ehm, protoss micro is easy as hell. Put up guardian shield. Forcefield is easy. Storm is pretty easy as well. Bio requires a lot more micro vs protoss than the other way. I laughed hard, sry. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:17 Ndugu wrote: going 14pool 15hatch into roach hydra is the single easiest thing you can do in this game and it CAN be a+moved. Even easier than Terran bio. Ling muta is even incredibly easy. Don't let (too many!) things shoot at your mutas while you try and snipe probes! If they move out, wtfpwn their units with the million lings you've made with the spare minerals! Going ling/baneling/infestor muta... on the other hand, requires LOTS of micro and control groups... but going blink stalker/high templar/phoenix isn't any easier. Generalizations are bad unless its about Terran. Going a really hard build like... well yeah Terran doesn't have anything thats particularly hard. They like to act like managing siege tanks is anything but boring, slow, and easy though I guess 4gate is really easy and very successful, so if you do that, you're kinda playing easy-mode I don't know if the other easy modes-- 3rax MM, roach/hydra, are as successful, even though they are definitely even easier. I think the amount of 2gate proxiers and 4gaters leads to the perception of Protoss as easy mode.Also the insane n00b-killing ability of Void Rays also makes some people think Toss is easy. N00bs just dont know how to kill air units. Terran players try and say Protoss is the easy race so that they feel less ashamed of themselves. Any sort of reaper or banshee play is quite difficult, and TvT is easily the most skill intensive mirror. Terran is the easiest right now because they are most like they were in Brood War, while Zerg operate differently (queens to get more larva instead of just building hatch and forgetting about it) and Protoss builds radically different from how they did in Brood War | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
Why? He's right, you can't just A-move bio. You have to stim first. :p | ||
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FTemplar
Canada70 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:29 clusen wrote: In bigger fights Zerg is just about positioning vs Toss and macro during the fight, which is way harder for Zerg than for Toss. And most Zergunits do not have any spells that you could use. Roach burrow for example is really effective in smaller fights, but in big fights only helps you for positioning. I agree. I do not know if it is harder than for the protoss, because I don't play them, but I sure is challenging as Zerg. To continue on your point, I think that's why the Infestor has a role to play in every zerg army, every match-up... | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Well it's true , but most terrans just 1 a and just watch as their whole clump of units melt to storm or collosus . | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
T has to do things like... dodging storms (marines) and focus firing immortals / colossi, I guess. With a bio army you're doing more of the classic BW micro rather than supporting your army with spells (P). @OP: Personally I find the Zerg the easiest to play (I played T -> Z in BW). As long as you get your drones and dont forget to larva inject, the macro is very forgiving and you don't have to worry about spells / unit micro too much - just position your army for nice surrounds and flanks and you're good to go. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
1)Macro mechanics: Zerg: Can't miss injection. Have to manage 1 to 3 more bases then your opponent. Have to know when to make drones Terran/protoss: MULE/Chronoboost can be missed and used for things other then economy in late game. Non stop worker production. 2)Micro. Zerg: Have to be constantly aware where your units are. All units easily die. Losing focus for one second results in dieing to thor/storm/collosus aoe. Terran: Baneling counter measures. Less relevant if you mech. Micro intensive battles vs toss if you go infantry. Unforgiving viking vs viking tvt, bio vs tank micro. Tanks allow you to afk in battles. Protoss: Umm. Umm. 3)Countering Zerg: has to be aware of banshees, hellions, reapers, marauder pushes, thor pushes, tank pushes, and so on. 4/5/6/7/8/9/10 gates, void rays, has to rely mostly on clutch micro because scouting is very hard. Terran: void rays, to lesser extent dts. Can easily scan. Protoss: umm. umm. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:17 Ndugu wrote: Generalizations are bad unless its about Terran. Er, lol? Your entire post is OMG TERRAN OP. Stop. It's not true. (By the way, I know my icon is SCV by I'm a random player). | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
You pretty much always need at least 2-3 control groups as zerg to surround the enemy forces. Specially vs Bio or forcefield armys. You have a huge army and they have a "ball", the only way to even it out is to attack from all sides. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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TVsBrent
United States35 Posts
Protoss seems to be much easier for me in regard to base management, as the only building I really need to build a lot of are Gateways/Warpgates. I don't typically build more than 2 Robotics Facilities or 3 Stargates. | ||
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Rezz
Canada20 Posts
My friend never player a rts in he's life and when he played vs a 500 elo diamond (protoss) on my acount he won with 1a move. Only thing I said to help him was: ''Marauder and tank are op use them''. Only experiance he had was looking at me playing zerg. Then i said ''grats you are better then 95% of the sc2 player after your first game'' | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:45 TVsBrent wrote: Speaking from my limited Silver-level ability, I find that Terran requires too much base management for my small brain to handle. When I play Terran, there are more things I have to remember and I find that I tend to build up too many minerals. I've gotten a bit better, thanks to playing a lot of single player campaign, but I'm definitely not up to snuff in multiplayer. Protoss seems to be much easier for me in regard to base management, as the only building I really need to build a lot of are Gateways/Warpgates. I don't typically build more than 2 Robotics Facilities or 3 Stargates. there is definitely a curve. I think at lower levels zerg is indeed the easiest and involves a lot of a-moving. | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
It's hard if you rely on Force Field-blocking a ramp or something like that and you have to have precision though. Zerg Battle micro is by far the easiest. The stuff before the Battle is the hard part (positioning for a flank, snipe off parts of the opponent army and so on). I heard that Terran battle micro is quite hard, because it's crucial that your units attack the right units and because you have a diverse mix uf units, of whom many have special abilitys or different modes. This is often not that grave, because a mech timing push wins with a-move too | ||
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
I honestly disagree with assessment that Protoss is the easiest race. I DO agree that this was true in BW, and I think a lot of people are just stuck in the habit of saying it, and it has thus carried over. The OP already covered the micro portion, so I guess people think protoss macro is easy? Sure, warpgates have their advantages, but they're not easier than other race's macro. The only thing different about warpgates is that production is frontloaded, rather than backloaded. If we look at how unit production(+) and unit wait time(...) looks between races, you'll notice that the in-betweens look exactly the same, assuming constant production They only differ in how they start and end. Protoss: +.....+.....+.....+..... Terran : .....+.....+.....+.....+ Furthermore, warp-gates require more multitasking, since they require you to look at a pylon that is often, though not always, a long way away from an intense battle. That, coupled with the all-important Protoss micro that we've already discussed, makes for a challenging combination. Meanwhile, T and Z can queue up units easily with hotkeys and rally points(another thing warpgates don't have) from the comfort of the front lines. I'm not saying Z and T are easier races, just that I do not agree that P is. | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:40 raga4ka wrote: Well it's true , but most terrans just 1 a and just watch as their whole clump of units just melts to storm or collosus . It is true, you also have to storm dodge and split units when banelings are present. Edit: NVM storm is impossible to dodge On August 12 2010 23:49 Cofo wrote: This thread will probably be locked like all the similar threads before it, as it inevitably devolves into "my race is hardest and everyone else's is easiest!" I honestly disagree with assessment that Protoss is the easiest race. I DO agree that this was true in BW, and I think a lot of people are just stuck in the habit of saying it, and it has thus carried over. The OP already covered the micro portion, so I guess people think protoss macro is easy? Sure, warpgates have their advantages, but they're not easier than other race's macro. The only thing different about warpgates is that production is frontloaded, rather than backloaded. If we look at how unit production(+) and unit wait time(...) looks between races, you'll notice that the in-betweens look exactly the same, assuming constant production They only differ in how they start and end. Protoss: +.....+.....+.....+..... Terran : .....+.....+.....+.....+ Furthermore, warp-gates require more multitasking, since they require you to look at a pylon that is often, though not always, a long way away from an intense battle. That, coupled with the all-important Protoss micro that we've already discussed, makes for a challenging combination. Meanwhile, T and Z can queue up units easily with hotkeys and rally points(another thing warpgates don't have) from the comfort of the front lines. I'm not saying Z and T are easier races, just that I do not agree that P is. Hotkey your waprgates Hotkey a pylon ??? Profit , It is pretty easy to do. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:49 Melt wrote: Protoss battle-micro is quite spell oriented but not that hard. It's hard if you rely on Force Field-blocking a ramp or something like that and you have to have precision though. Zerg Battle micro is by far the easiest. The stuff before the Battle is the hard part (positioning for a flank, snipe off parts of the opponent army and so on). I heard that Terran battle micro is quite hard, because it's crucial that your units attack the right units and because you have a diverse mix uf units, of whom many have special abilitys or different modes. This is often not that grave, because a mech timing push wins with a-move too Since you all have ranged units, its very intensive because you have to focus on making good arcs, kiting properly, focus firing with specific groups of units, etc | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:09 Valhalla44 wrote: well zerg is almost always a - move mid-late game cuse they are kinda like swarm(always coming more and more), but P isnt easiest race to play (it was in sc1), T is with almost undefendable pushes and some cheeses with variety of strats. ARE YOU BEING SERIOUSCAKES? ZERG IS A-MOVE? if i'd A-move ANY time i'd be FUCKED even if i had twice the army size. i CONSTANTLY have to micro away lings from zealots to get to the fragile units, i ALWAYS have to micro away hydras from zealots and let one or two stay behind as meat shields and muta can't even be talked about vs protoss the way they DIE as soon as they get shot at, EVERYTIME they put down force fields i have to micro around or even flee if the forcefields are just perfectly placed. don't come saying shit you have no clue about | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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RawrAnOcean
United States359 Posts
Zerg is by far the hardest and everyone probably universally agrees. The game sense is much more important and it's really hard for beginners to improve on. Thinking you have enough drones in the early game and then when you lose, you think your strat, micro, macro was the problem, but it really was the drones that was your problem. | ||
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JiSu
Korea (South)140 Posts
Look at rankings. 70% of top players are terrans or zerg. | ||
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sNes.
United States377 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:38 FrogOfWar wrote: Why? He's right, you can't just A-move bio. You have to stim first. :p and emp..and get a good concave..and siege tanks.. | ||
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EoR
Ireland127 Posts
At lower levels? You are fucking kidding yourself if you think Protoss is not the easiest, imo. Great, big, chunky, durable units with very effective spells that can leave a newbie Zerg or Terran going: "OMG! NERF STORM, NERF COLLOSI!". Protoss can easily A-move > click any place other than the centre of Desert Oasis and come out on top. Their macro mechanic isn't even pivotal to success. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:57 JiSu wrote: Protoss is the proest race to play. Look at rankings. 70% of top players are terrans or zerg. what? i can copy that from me in the tvz thread statistics for the top 50 in eu: races in the top 50 zerg 8 terran 26 protoss 15 random 2 (thats 51 because 2 players are on 50) id say terran is the easiest race if your bad you can play 3rax and you will win against players on your and slightly above your level if your better you can play harass into mech or whatever you want and you win against everyone | ||
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SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
SC2 is relative young and i still dont see pure micro (if i miss something show me plz^^) Protoss in my imo is more a good use of spells than micro. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:53 NuKedUFirst wrote: Hotkey your waprgates Hotkey a pylon ??? Profit, It is pretty easy to do. Yes, it is pretty easy to do. That doesn't change the fact that you have to move to the pylon to make units. instead of keeping your attention in more important places. | ||
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
But don't confuse that with Protoss being an easy race to play altogether. You can definitely excel at protoss | ||
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
Again, I'm not saying P mechanics are particularly hard, but there are demanding mechanics. I myself was a bit too eager to bash toss as 'the easy-mode race', that I must admit now that I've switched. | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
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arew
Lithuania1861 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:14 cuppatea wrote: I've played hundreds of games with both Protoss and Zerg and (imo) the difference between them, in terms of ease of use, is huge (with Zerg being far more difficult). For what it's worth, I'd rank the races like this: Ease of use: 1. Protoss 2. Terran 3. Zerg Strength of race: 1. Terran 2. Protoss 3. Zerg bs comment. I actually doubt if Protoss is the easiest race. Every race is hard and easy in the same, just one has been discovered more than the oters. Even tho, I'd put Terran as the easiest race atm. Sorry for my english >.< | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
Most importantly when it comes to ease of play is if you can dictate the flow of the game or not. A beginner will likely be more successful playing aggressive as Zerg than defensive. If a noob friend of yours wants to become diamond, do you tell him to play the game like Idra does or do you tell him to go 4 warp gate push every game? By far I think that the hardest way to reach a "decent" (say, ~400 Diamond?) rating is to play an economic zerg or any playstyle that depends on understand your opponents push timings and tech patterns. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
If you think Zerg is so hard, or Terran and Protoss is so easy, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and just make the switch. You save thread space, complaining, and time. The end. | ||
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Keype
Sweden455 Posts
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Endemic
United States18 Posts
Did you play them above Diamond 800+ and claim that it was easy? I believe all you shit talkers are not even around that much of points. | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:59 sNes. wrote: and emp..and get a good concave..and siege tanks.. Concave ? Who needs a concave when you just a-move/h/a-move/h... please... terran is not "ZE OMG EASIEST RACE AND SO IMBA !!!11" but don't argue that microing a bioball is hard. It's... insulting. As protoss you have to try spreading your army all the time, trying to snipe ghosts if you can spot/select them. Sentrys are generally in the melee (short range and if so behind, no FF) so EMPed easily. The templars are behind so they run all the time, trying to catch what's in front of them. And if the protoss army regroups, it takes so much free hits from the bioball it isn't even funny. And I don't talk about warping during battle cause even if you d'ont look half a second, it can be the half of second EMP that will ruin your day. And a lot more stuff about positionning/focusing etc. I won't mention here. Playing terran is hard. Playing protoss is hard. Playing zerg is hard. All depends of your playstyle. But some strats are easier than others: bio as terra, 4gate as protoss, etc, etc. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
P macro is def the easiest for me and most fights are 1a, spam some forcefields and watch how your colloxen melt faces. T has tons of micro/apm intensive situations. bio requires the most army control out of any army comp . but ofc if you just turtle up with pure mech that doesnt apply just like in broodwar. macro is soso since you cant just select all hatches and hammer one key or select all warpgates(which usually are 80%* of your production) and spam away, the one or 2 robos you might pump colloxen with dont change much about that.. Z is a mix of things for me. proper macro + larva + creep spread def needs tons of attention once it gets into mid-lategame. army wise it depends. a proper flank of a P army with colloxen corruption focus, proper spreading etc needs some control just like good muta harrass does. but when you play something like muta/ling/baneling against bio its super easy. so for me its P easiest since i just <3 warpgate spam and i almost always feel in fights the enemy has to do more then me Z=T depending on the strats ,situation etc but ya youll never get a definite answer. different players find different stuff easy/hard. also many many sad kids will flame you when you call their race "easy" ^^ | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
I've played random mostly and my own opinion is that they are all hard to play, but in very diffrent ways - this makes diffrent playstyles and character more suitable for diffrent races. I think that the third post in this thread hit the nail on the head actually. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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shwaffles
United States117 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:26 Wayem wrote: Concave ? Who needs a concave when you just a-move/h/a-move/h... please... terran is not "ZE OMG EASIEST RACE AND SO IMBA !!!11" but don't argue that microing a bioball is hard. It's... insulting. As protoss you have to try spreading your army all the time, trying to snipe ghosts if you can spot/select them. Sentrys are generally in the melee (short range and if so behind, no FF) so EMPed easily. The templars are behind so they run all the time, trying to catch what's in front of them. And if the protoss army regroups, it takes so much free hits from the bioball it isn't even funny. And I don't talk about warping during battle cause even if you d'ont look half a second, it can be the half of second EMP that will ruin your day. And a lot more stuff about positionning/focusing etc. I won't mention here. Playing terran is hard. Playing protoss is hard. Playing zerg is hard. All depends of your playstyle. But some strats are easier than others: bio as terra, 4gate as protoss, etc, etc. +1 Hit the nail on the head here. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I think its pretty clear in SC2 that Terran is the "easy race".. You just mass a bio ball and attack move win. I've been playing terran since phase 2 and with my bad mechanics, ive still beaten top players (many from the blizzard "top 200") with bio balls and decent micro (which is probably even unnessisary) I think Protoss definitely requires the most attention in Micro, stalkers are quite weak in comparison to the other range units like marauders and roaches. You basically require zealots infront to tank abit of damage because straight 1 vs 1, Stalkers die hard vs marauders, and probably would come out even vs roach of equal numbers (roaches being cheaper). Not saying stalkers are weak, they are good but they aren't as good as marauders. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:23 SCC-Faust wrote: I wonder when people will stop making retarded generalizations. If you think Zerg is so hard, or Terran and Protoss is so easy, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and just make the switch. You save thread space, complaining, and time. The end. It's not all about complaining. A discussion about which race is the easiest is useful for beginners who wants to be competitive. Sure, "easy" is a relative term and the answer will be different depending on build and level of play. But would you deny that protoss is the "easy" race in Brood War? Terran and zerg has won a lot more OSLs and MSLs but what about on a level that concerns most users on these forums? | ||
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Sly
Canada95 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:17 Salv wrote: Who has been saying that Protoss is the easiest? If anything, the only thing I have been hearing is that Terran is too strong or that Terran units are imbalanced. The Protoss is easy comment was annoying and irritating in Brood War, I hope it doesn't continue in SC2 as well. i'd have to agree with this. all i've heard is about how easy and OP terran is. then people saying how unfair zerg is. | ||
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
People sayin MULEs mean Terran macro is easy clearly do not play them. If you get supply blocked as terran early game you are literally FUCKED, you simply cannot catch up in unit production, if you fall behind at any point recovering is an absolute nightmare. Compared to save up larvae and get an ovi fast it's alot more depressing. I don't find protoss noticeably easier to play nor is my winrate any higher with them. How anyone can claim the warpgate is a convenient macro mechanic mid battle is quite frankly beyond me. Fighting, and producing a steady stream of units at the same is complete hell compared to T or Z I find. I didn't play BW, and play random in sc2 (550 diamond) and I don't get all this emo cut wrists my race is so shit whine, change your race or man the fuck up. None of them are remotely easy to play well and all have slightly different areas of macro that are tough. Micro wise anyone saying any of them are easy is clearly bad, just wait till you play someone of any race who can actually exploit a-move. | ||
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trevf
United States237 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:23 SCC-Faust wrote: I wonder when people will stop making retarded generalizations. If you think Zerg is so hard, or Terran and Protoss is so easy, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and just make the switch. You save thread space, complaining, and time. The end. Faust for president! | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
- Place force fields in exactly the correct positions. - Keep army well separated to mitigate EMP. - Watch out for tiny ghosts and try to feedback them if possible. - Place storms in optimal positions, while keeping Templar away from danger. - Stay away from siege tanks. - Keep zealots in front of my army, not behind, and prevent stalkers from outrunning them. - Keep zealots from charging to idiotic locations. - Make sure my Colossi don't get focus fired. - Micro void rays to get them charged, if I have them. - Micro phoenixes to pick up key units (tanks, marauders), if I have them. - Blink away damaged stalkers. - Continue to macro, which requires moving screen away from the battle. To fight my Protoss ball, Terran has to... - Select all units and press T. - Right click on the big units. - EMP on the shiny units. - Run backwards when the sparkles come. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:13 Ndugu wrote: I've heard "Protoss is the easiest to play but the hardest to win with" and I agree with that statement. Stalkers get wtfpwned by marauders and, for cost without micro, die to roaches, get owned by lings, etc. Zealots without charge lose to marauders without great force-fields. Void Rays die to marines without good control, etc. The backbone of a Protoss army, Zealot/Stalker, loses to just about any other average army. The sentry is what makes it viable-- in that, you can only fight half an army at a time if it charges up your ramp, you can split armies, etc. I think it is VERY interesting and sexy design that has a uniquely Protoss feel. Stalkers are also very fast with good range, and do well with blink micro to move injured ones to the back or just move micro to keep the damaged ones out of harms way. Meanwhile, a+moved zealots are cost-effective against just about everything if you can control them well and use sentries to help them out. The balance between zealot/stalker/sentry is just so amazingly well done. Little details like Zealots being slower without charge so that you have to manually position your army for effectiveness when moving... the better cost-effectiveness of zealots but the fact that they can be kited infinitely without sentry support-- but sentries are expensive and delay your tech.... It just feels so different than a bio-ball. It feels so different from a roach/hydra ball. ETC. One of my favorite parts of this game. /end ejaculatory love post. so you go zealot / stalker every single game and expect to win? | ||
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CrAzEdBaDgEr
Canada166 Posts
Anyways, both games where my choice of random rolled Terran, all I did was mass marines and marauders and A-move into the other army, and I won both games easily with the highest score. I had terrible macro, lots of extra resources in the bank, and kept getting supply blocked since I'm not used to having to use up a worker during structure building. Anyone who says Terran isn't the easiest race (at least below the very very top level) is on crack .The one game I rolled Zerg, I did surprisingly okay, and was surprised just how powerful the spawn larva macro mechanic is. It's easily the most powerful macro mechanic of the 3 races, but it definitely also requires the most attention. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:23 SCC-Faust wrote: I wonder when people will stop making retarded generalizations. If you think Zerg is so hard, or Terran and Protoss is so easy, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and just make the switch. You save thread space, complaining, and time. The end. maybe some people enjoy a challenge buddy | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:58 chekthehek wrote: maybe some people enjoy a challenge buddy It's one thing to like a challenge, it's another thing to take on the perceived "challenge" and then spend all your time crying like a little girl about how unfair it all is. | ||
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shwaffles
United States117 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:58 chekthehek wrote: maybe some people enjoy a challenge buddy Then don't complain when its "too hard" ok? | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
In the end there is no correct term to describe how easy, or hard any of the three races are to use. Except that they are equally as hard in their own unique ways, hence the three separate names (terran/zerg/protoss) three unique races with many of their own unique obstacles a user must overcome in order to be pro with them. (or at least half decent for the casual gamer) | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:41 MangoTango wrote: Er, lol? Your entire post is OMG TERRAN OP. Stop. It's not true. (By the way, I know my icon is SCV by I'm a random player). No? I just think Terran is the easiest. It is not as fun as Protoss for me thanks to TvT, or I would switch over for the free wins versus zerg :D On August 13 2010 00:06 oxxo wrote: I like how TvZ 'imbalance' hysteria has evolved into TvP 'imbalance' hysteria. If anything TvP is imbalanced the other way. I'm not sure how the balance will be once Terran players stop playing like crap. I massively beat Terran players in ladder(diamond, like everyone else), I fare much worse in PvZ and PvP. Somehow Terran players are under the impression that they can 1-1-1, build 5 units, and then make an expansion. They then rage when my Void Rays come to force them to leave their bunkers and then gateway units flood in and kill them. Yes, expanding is how you counter a clearly aggressive build. You sure know how to scout Mr. Scan & Expand. The amount of incredibly greedy and bad Terran players on ladder is simply mind-numbing. 75% (scientific estimate) of my victories are because the Terran was bad, not because I was good. They charge up my ramp and let their army get split by force-field. They fast tech (1-1-1) and then expand with like 5 units to defend. I'm always amazed when I see players think that will work. And worst of all, they refuse to build bunkers when they see you're going to playing offensively. I'm not saying I think there is a balance issue, as I also think Protoss players have A LOT of room to improve. This game is still in its learning stages. But if Terran win percentage is lower than 50%, I'd have to say its on the Terrans. | ||
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HoT
United States69 Posts
They are strong but keeping a toss unit alive is more important than terran or zerg, because you have so few, and they're so expensive; And its not like they can move fast. I'd say micro'ing toss can depend on the situation in terms of hard it can be. Zerg has more than just a-move In sc2, You still have to micro them, they can get bunched up and miss out on maximum damage. For them micro'ing positioning is key: ramps, surrounds, large fights where big units could force them to miss out on dmagae just because of where they're standing etc.. I would just read Sentient's post on things you have to keep in mind, even though Im not a toss player myself. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
On August 13 2010 01:00 shwaffles wrote: Then don't complain when its "too hard" ok? hmm, looks i am getting bashed on, put where do i say its too hard? where do i say zerg is unbalanced? oh? i never said it in this thread? | ||
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btANgeL.twn
Taiwan19 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:55 Sentient wrote: To fight a Terran ball, I have to... - Place force fields in exactly the correct positions. - Keep army well separated to mitigate EMP. - Watch out for tiny ghosts and try to feedback them if possible. - Place storms in optimal positions, while keeping Templar away from danger. - Stay away from siege tanks. - Keep zealots in front of my army, not behind, and prevent stalkers from outrunning them. - Keep zealots from charging to idiotic locations. - Make sure my Colossi don't get focus fired. - Micro void rays to get them charged, if I have them. - Micro phoenixes to pick up key units (tanks, marauders), if I have them. - Blink away damaged stalkers. - Continue to macro, which requires moving screen away from the battle. To fight my Protoss ball, Terran has to... - Select all units and press T. - Right click on the big units. - EMP on the shiny units. - Run backwards when the sparkles come. I agreed on all counts. I'd also add that warp gate macro-ing isn't as easy as many claim here. Considering how micro intensive protoss units are already, to have to go back to base to warp in units is a big deal. A lot of people mass more warp gates than they need and get delusional about how easy it is to macro with toss. The inability to queue unit production makes a very big difference in being able to macro on the dot. If you've seen some of Nony's phoenix builds. He macros off of 2 WP and a single SG until he takes his expansion. We already know phoenix is a really micro intensive unit, and on top of that you have to time your warp gate cool down timings to come back and macro up. He had to do it in a very timely fashion to keep his resources low while lifting units left and right. I personally need 3 warp gates because I don't have the APM to macro well on 2. Protoss is NOT easy to play well. In SCBW I'd recommend Protoss to a newbie, not in SC2. I'd usually tell them to play Terran because it's easy for them to defend early game and they won't lose to as many rushes. | ||
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HoT
United States69 Posts
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DemiSe
883 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:23 SCC-Faust wrote: I wonder when people will stop making retarded generalizations. If you think Zerg is so hard, or Terran and Protoss is so easy, do everyone (including yourself) a favor and just make the switch. You save thread space, complaining, and time. The end. Wisdom deserves quotation. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
I play soooo many toss on ladder that have a really good 4/5 gate allin and that's ALL THEY DO EVER. So they are pretty bad players but they have a decent win % due to exploiting 1 easy build really well. So if you're good enough to stop a 4 gate allin, you win everytime vs. these types of players cause they haven't tried to learn anything else due to the ease and effectiveness of this 1 build. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
Protoss really is the easiest race to pick up. Warping in buildings is forgiving and the units are fewer, but more expensive. Past a certain skill level, though, Protoss becomes the hardest race, IMO. Or the most underpowered race, either or. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On August 13 2010 00:55 Sentient wrote: To fight a Terran ball, I have to... - Place force fields in exactly the correct positions. - Keep army well separated to mitigate EMP. - Watch out for tiny ghosts and try to feedback them if possible. - Place storms in optimal positions, while keeping Templar away from danger. - Stay away from siege tanks. - Keep zealots in front of my army, not behind, and prevent stalkers from outrunning them. - Keep zealots from charging to idiotic locations. - Make sure my Colossi don't get focus fired. - Micro void rays to get them charged, if I have them. - Micro phoenixes to pick up key units (tanks, marauders), if I have them. - Blink away damaged stalkers. - Continue to macro, which requires moving screen away from the battle. To fight my Protoss ball, Terran has to... - Select all units and press T. - Right click on the big units. - EMP on the shiny units. - Run backwards when the sparkles come. LMAO, aparently protoss uses every possible unit they have while terran only uses MMG. You should make the same list while terran is - Flanking with helions - Sniping collus with vikings - Place PDD where you cant just run away - Leapfroging with tanks - Making sure marines arent in front of marauders - Never making a mistake or forcefield can cost you the game - Making sure medivacs dont fly into you army when microing the bio ball around. etc. etc. Such lists are just stupid and easily biased, especially if you decide to have one race use 3 units and the other use every unit they can. I go 1 1 1 into ghost mech so I'm not really that experienced with Bio vs toss. But I do know if you mess up with the siege tanks, chargelots and blink stalkers make short work of your army. Oh and helions can be pretty much useless or have an insane dmg output based of your micro. I really think alle the 3 races have a lot of micro to them. People saying zerg or terran bio can just A-move are probably not in mid diamond or higher. People there will punish you incredible hard if you do such a thing. The terran doom pushes are getting harder and harder to pull off since zergs will have units comming from every single angle possible the second they see the opportunity. I really cant say which race has the most micro, but dont think that MOAR SPELLS = MOAR MICRO | ||
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CrAzEdBaDgEr
Canada166 Posts
On August 13 2010 01:15 btANgeL.twn wrote: I agreed on all counts. I'd also add that warp gate macro-ing isn't as easy as many claim here. Considering how micro intensive protoss units are already, to have to go back to base to warp in units is a big deal. A lot of people mass more warp gates than they need and get delusional about how easy it is to macro with toss. The inability to queue unit production makes a very big difference in being able to macro on the dot. If you've seen some of Nony's phoenix builds. He macros off of 2 WP and a single SG until he takes his expansion. We already know phoenix is a really micro intensive unit, and on top of that you have to time your warp gate cool down timings to come back and macro up. He had to do it in a very timely fashion to keep his resources low while lifting units left and right. I personally need 3 warp gates because I don't have the APM to macro well on 2. Protoss is NOT easy to play well. In SCBW I'd recommend Protoss to a newbie, not in SC2. I'd usually tell them to play Terran because it's easy for them to defend early game and they won't lose to as many rushes. I also fully agree with this. Don't underestimate the effect of being able to queue up to 5 (or more with a reactor) units at once. This saves so many APM when compared to warpgates it's not even funny. Add to that the crazy amount of micro required by protoss to be able to compete with a M&M ball (where 1A->S is enough to own anyone without excellent micro or 6 colossi) and Terran is very clearly easier than Protoss. I switched from Protoss to Random as of yesterday, and the 3 games I played as Terran were easy even though I've never used them before and made many large macro errors. 2 games I massed rax units, 1 game I rushed banshees, all games were won easily with essentially no danger. I'm excited to play more, the diversity Random gives you is fun. But it really opened my eyes to how easy it is to win with Terran. I also experienced that Zerg isn't as bad as everyone says, though (though I didn't play ZvT so maybe that's why). | ||
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btANgeL.twn
Taiwan19 Posts
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
I'd rank Protoss as easiest zerg next terran hardest my 2minerals I tend to win terran games, even when I play like crap, tho. :/ | ||
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
If you told a few Dragoons to walk down a ramp and left them to their own devices, half of them would end up moonwalking behind the mineral line. | ||
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CrAzEdBaDgEr
Canada166 Posts
I admit that I find Protoss the easiest to macro, at least until late game. However, they're the hardest to micro. Terran I find harder to macro until later on, when the unit queueing makes it easier as income rises. They are easy to micro relatively well, though (not saying it's easy to M&M drop in 3 places at once while hellion harassing, but in terms of microing one army, they are by far the easiest). Zerg is harder to macro without error, and although micro is arguably not as important with zerg, burrow and positioning and surround are important and these are reasonably micro-intensive. Macro Difficulty: 1. Zerg 2. Terran 3. Protoss Micro Difficulty: 1. Protoss 2. Zerg 3. Terran "Winning the game" Difficulty: 1. Zerg 2. Protoss 3. Terran | ||
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
The learning curves for each race are different...however, it is possible to be good with each race. I'm not bashing on protoss players, saying that it's the easy way to become good, because you may have a bit of a jump start, but there's just one of those humps that you must overcome to become really good at the game. | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
On August 13 2010 01:27 Armsved wrote: LMAO, aparently protoss uses every possible unit they have while terran only uses MMG. You should make the same list while terran is - Flanking with helions - Sniping collus with vikings - Place PDD where you cant just run away - Leapfroging with tanks - Making sure marines arent in front of marauders - Never making a mistake or forcefield can cost you the game - Making sure medivacs dont fly into you army when microing the bio ball around. etc. etc. Yes, Terran can do all those things. Yet for the list I posted, I have to do all that just to defeat a bio ball and a few vikings, and even then it can be a close battle. If I don't do that, I get steamrolled. What you posted is all bonus. Protoss has to do a lot more at the bare minimum just to survive. At the higher level I think it's about the same, but for anyone picking a race because it's easier (eg, total newbies who don't know how to micro or macro), Terran leaves a lot less room for mistakes. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
Meanwhile, Zerg can pretty much just a-move and have a decent fight and Terran can just do the move-H-move-H crap with their MM ball. Really? Zerg can pretty much a-move? When claiming this kind of statements you HAVE to have solid backup, info, or actual proof or else its worth nothing, it's only purpose is to start a flame discussion. What really matters is the skill level of the opponent. If you can A-move and win, it doesn't mean that your race is overpowered or easy to micro. It means that the opponent wasn't challenging. Anyways I'll just say that people tend to generalize and make baseless claims that are a result of their limited experience. We need facts please, not anecdotes. | ||
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On August 13 2010 01:47 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote: Macro Difficulty: 1. Zerg 2. Terran 3. Protoss Agree On August 13 2010 01:47 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote: Micro Difficulty: 1. Protoss 2. Zerg 3. Terran No way, if you amove a maurader marine vs any player you get owned, when going bio you have so many that most of them will end waiting for the front ones to die to atack... Zerg has almost no units with skills to use in battlel(infestor only) while almost every single terran does, Protos only needs to FF+shield => pure ownage, storm if he has templars. If you say stim+a move = Win... you're seriously bias dude... On August 13 2010 01:47 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote: "Winning the game" Difficulty: 1. Zerg 2. Protoss 3. Terran Again no, protos FF is just to damn good one error and your army gets divided and raped... | ||
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darklordjac
Canada2231 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:45 Sfydjklm wrote: i think if u havent got past A-moving as zerg you must be still in platinum^^ It's not even that, my friends in gold and a moves. | ||
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darklordjac
Canada2231 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Anyone can make a list of 10+ things each others race has to do to defeat simple army compositions and its just pointless comparisons. Terrans have lots of spells but require little micro. They have lots of harassment units that require LOTS of macro. Protoss have lots of spell that require slightly more micro. Zerg have almost no spells but thats fine because they're so busy coming up with ways to deal with all the annoying ass shit the other races can abuse you with day in day out. Your only spell caster has 2 useful spells and 1 of them is stealing the other dudes units which is pretty much the only way you can deal with them pre hive . Kinda sad. "Yeah zvt is easy, mass siege tanks and kkill his marines!" Dealing with tanks, force fields, colossus. It's all a nightmare really. Unless you think its fun which I happen to.I played random throughout the beta btw. In early beta I always felt like protoss was just an easy mode race because I really didn't know what I was doing and I'd still win before terrans and zerg started to learn to play. (Things like medivac abuse instead of just 1-a-t bioball which is easy to stop) Zerg is my best race and already the paragraph is twice as long in my post. That's why a protoss player listing a micro list for himself and a micro list for terran is completely pointless. | ||
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Nyx
Rwanda460 Posts
On August 12 2010 23:26 NuKedUFirst wrote: I don't understand how you can say protoss is the hardest to micro?Most are their spells are spam able. They have alot of spells they can use doesn't mean they will, I don't see many players using blink effectively but they just spam forcefield and storm so I guess that is an argument for you but It's mainly the players game sense that I have seen so far. What about stalkers? you can do the same. I think alot of problems with people saying X is easier then Y or A is easier then Z is that they are comparing apples to oranges. Different units need to be micro'd differently. Hellions for example are move and attack a center unit, etc. Yup, because micro = spells *sigh*. I've found a good deal of important micro for protoss, one of the hardest is keeping collosus away from aerial snipers while still zapping the frontline enemy force. You definitely cannot use one control group for protoss at any decent level. I doubt you've played much protoss at all with a comment like that. Everybody thinks their race is the hardest and blah blah blah. | ||
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justle
United States174 Posts
I play Protoss because I was most familiar with them (from my 10 BW games). I actually have an even record in Bronze League (luel), but I recently began to feel comfortable with how to start a game, do a little bit of macro, and how to make adjustments to my army composition when I figure out what my opponent is doing. As someone who has very little RTS experience before SC2, Protoss has been fairly easy to pick up and win games with, even though I'm still at a low level. I have played a few practice games as the other races, and they don't seem particularly hard to figure out either. Obviously, each race plays differently than the next, and the macro/micro strategies are very different. The point is, if you know your race (or, if you random, you know all of the specifics of each race), I don't think any of them can be that much easier or harder than the next. The biggest thing is understanding that the general strategies change for each race, they're not really comparable through the same lens, and they can definitely all beat each other with a similar level of difficulty. Isn't the balancing why everyone has been so loyal to SC for so long? | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
On August 13 2010 02:04 Slayer91 wrote: This argument is silly. Protoss is the strongest at a pure "1a" level because having less units but stronger is really good when both armies ball up because zerg can't get a good surround and all their stuff can't attack. "outnumbered" means nothing. Terran relies on key spells like stim, emp and tank sieging. You're stuck in BW. Protoss don't have stronger/less units anymore. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 13 2010 02:15 ToxNub wrote: You're stuck in BW. Protoss don't have stronger/less units anymore. Let's compare midgame armies. PvZ: Stalker, 2 Sentry, 2 Immortal, 4 Colossus, 6 Ling, 0.5 Roach, 2 Hydra, 2 Muta (maybe), 2 Infestor (maybe), 2 Ultra (if he hive rushes), 6 Zerglings and immortal/colossus usually tip the balance. PvT: Marines - 1 I could list more but it all depends on army comp. Marines and immortals + colossus tip the balance against so that protoss have less units. Thors are almost never used in tvp but then against colossus are not so popular either. In general bio uses less supply for the same nubmer of units. | ||
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silencesc
United States464 Posts
It wasn't true in BW and it's not true now, so stop with the whining and move to toss if you think it's so easy: stop with the BM. | ||
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Scruff
Singapore509 Posts
I still think Protoss is the easiest to use, although definitely not the hardest to win. I off race as Protoss and i win against Zerg opponent much better than i am all the time. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
PvT isn't the whole Protoss gets random expansions around the map like it used to be in BW. In SC2, I don't think there is a way to get my nat out faster because I have to wait until the terran shows signs that he is going to expo or else I get nailed by some incredible marauder/rine/ghost/dropship timing attack. I'm not sure how colossus work though since I've essentially stopped getting them since I found it annoying that my entire army depended on 3-4 massive units that could be focused down by corruptors or vikings o_O | ||
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sTYleZerG-eX
Mexico473 Posts
If you are noob yes, you will just straight up go vs ur opponents army, but if you do you will fined that all your units just dies (If playing a skilled opponent) No as a zerg I am always searching for a flank, so the attack comes from 2 sides if 3 sides is not possible, this is specially when your army starts getting bigger than 75 supply. You also want to be constantly harassing with small amount of units, so that ur opponent doesn't push, and gives you a chance to out expand him, and beat him in army size. Then you can a-move. | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
for beginners, its very tempting to build cannon d and let your opponent die to your static defense. ofc, this is like playing AI, but hey, we are talking about beginner level here. protoss is the 1a race. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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Prdors
United States67 Posts
I never really play terran, I played one game as terran (and won), but I did a cheesy all-in marine rush. | ||
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Cerion
213 Posts
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