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On August 13 2010 07:22 zomgzergrush wrote:
Nothing to do with the campaign.
Zerg gets bitch slapped left and right by the other two races, is forced to only respond to what the opponent is doing, and is incapable of doing any meaningful early game aggression. Furthermore, by late game, it is not possible to squander enough forces to overrun the enemy forces. Reinforcing has nothing to do with it. ZvMech especially, your maxed Z army is just a joke.
Furthermore, it is not possible to create an army composition that has no weakness as zerg, compared to P and T. T mech especially is a prime example. tank/rauder/hellion/thor has 0 hard counter possibility. Every zerg unit in the game gets hard countered so hard by any one of those components. For P, the colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot but at the very least it's possible to snipe colossus with some corruptor here.
Because before I pick up a new game, I read strategy forums. . .No. When I buy a game, I don't go out and read, "This is op, This is UP" forums. I may read a build order or two or something, but I sure as hell don't go out and read everything. Maybe once I'm playing, but I have had numerous friends pick up the game and the few that play zerg only complain about Void Rays.
Also of note: Tank/rauder/hellion is not mech. It's bio mech. And who the HELL cares about hard counters. Marine medic tank vessel had zero hard counters too.
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zerg is awesome, no one is giving them a chance though. And when people do play them they play like how they play terran and toss and that is not how to play them. you really have to wear people down and out produce and scout the enemy at all times. terran mech is not impossible to break, it just takes a different approach. remember mech is slow as beans, zerg is not slow. if you let them get a 200 200 army you are doing zerg wrong. They rarely will win against 200 200 in a straight fight.
I dont know why people hating on the lovable zerg so much.
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People should stop making threads like this.
People don't play zerg because they want to play terran or protoss, it's not the balance or the difficulty of the races, it's just preference.
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On August 13 2010 07:29 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 07:22 zomgzergrush wrote:
Nothing to do with the campaign.
Zerg gets bitch slapped left and right by the other two races, is forced to only respond to what the opponent is doing, and is incapable of doing any meaningful early game aggression. Furthermore, by late game, it is not possible to squander enough forces to overrun the enemy forces. Reinforcing has nothing to do with it. ZvMech especially, your maxed Z army is just a joke.
Furthermore, it is not possible to create an army composition that has no weakness as zerg, compared to P and T. T mech especially is a prime example. tank/rauder/hellion/thor has 0 hard counter possibility. Every zerg unit in the game gets hard countered so hard by any one of those components. For P, the colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot but at the very least it's possible to snipe colossus with some corruptor here. Because before I pick up a new game, I read strategy forums. . .No. When I buy a game, I don't go out and read, "This is op, This is UP" forums. I may read a build order or two or something, but I sure as hell don't go out and read everything. Maybe once I'm playing, but I have had numerous friends pick up the game and the few that play zerg only complain about Void Rays. Also of note: Tank/rauder/hellion is not mech. It's bio mech. And who the HELL cares about hard counters. Marine medic tank vessel had zero hard counters too.
1. I played starting from beta week 2. I did not JUST pick up this game like many new TL registers.
2. rine tank vessel DID have a hard counter for those of us who actually played BW. It was called plague, swarm, and lurkers. Once swarm and plague finished up at hive tech, the game was completely flipped in ZvT. FG does not compare to plague/swarm AT ALL.
3. Play ALL the races before saying anything.
Also of note: tank/rauder/hellion does have a hard counter; there is no AA in that combination.
Also of note: play other races first before you make such statements.
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The very reality of 'zerg being played less' is constantly making people switch races so that they can play the 'underpowered' race and be part of the proud minority. Things will balance themselves out soon enough.
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I haven't played since beta (since I went on holiday a few hours after i got the game).
But what always struck me as the main issue for seeing less Zerg was:
a) It has a harder to get into. Once you face people who have somewhat of a brain you have to make sure your macro is good. This includes using spawn larva on cooldown and making the right choice between making drones and offensive units
b) The Zerg seem to have less diversity.
Take a Terran, not only do they benefit a lot from mixed unit compositions. They also have a lot of diverse strategies you can use. Go with infantry (MMM style), go for mech, or go with air. Each is often a viable way to go and you can also go funky with say a reaper or helion rush or a thor drop.
Somewhat the same for protoss. They probably benefit even more from mixed unit compositions, and again there are multiple ways to go. You can go 4 gate; you can go fast robo; you can go for a stargate. Again lots of diversions within these and you can again do some funky things.
Zerg on the other hand seem more restricted. 9/10 games result in mass hydralisks because in the end its just the zergs strongest unit really. Not that the zerg can't play funky or mix units up a lot; but the risk/reward always seemed higher for me than for the other 2 races.
c) Zerg have a reactive playstyle
Since the roach nerfes (which were good, dont get me wrong) Zerg have been pretty much a reactive race from start till end. It can be really hard and very risky to be the agressor as zerg sometimes. For multiple reasons, some obvious others less (Like the fact that easy wall ins for T and P make it really hard to do a zergling rush these days).
Being a reactive race isn't bad by default, the zerg are rather good with it and you can switch unit composition so incredibly fast that the zerg probably even plays best in that role. But it can be dull and hard for newer players
d) Zerg lack more fun units.
The Terran and Protoss seem to have gotten the better pick of fun units. This goes from simply fun to use units (like reapers that can do some fun stuff with their ledge jumping, to blinking stalkers, from deathray collussi with ledgewalking to transforming Vikings), to caster units that make the whole playstyle more fun.
A good example is sentries. Forcefield must be one of the most entertaining and rewarding (with good micro) spells in the game.
Zerg seems to lack some of these. The infestor can be good fun, but is only really valuable against certain builds; same for banelings.
Those are just a few reasons i can think of. I haven't played recently so things might have changed a lot; if so excuses. But that's how I felt during beta. It's not that I dislike zerg or think they are underpowered. They just seem to miss "something". That's the feeling i had all throughout beta.
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I mained Zerg in SC1 but they're too difficult for my lack of playing time in SC2. The creep spread and queen mechanics are just something that really do require practice to really optimize. Zerg has a lot more potential than a majority of players give it simply because a majority of players don't have the mechanics yet to take advantage of it IMO. If you can get perfect creep spread and perfect queen usage with drone/unit comp, I think zerg is fine. But for the most of it, monitoring every single overlord, queen, creep tumor is just @_@.
Whenever I play as Zerg, I've never actually felt "OMG th is is so op I don't have a chance", it's more of a "fuuucckkk how do I have so many minerals and so little units ..." because I'm always trying to max the other factors.
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I like to think the reason is because every random player actually prefers Zerg.
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Spiciest (Great name by the way)
I play random and I do! Although they are def my worst race and it's because they are just flat out harder to play.
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On August 13 2010 07:22 zomgzergrush wrote:
Furthermore, it is not possible to create an army composition that has no weakness as zerg, compared to P and T. T mech especially is a prime example. tank/rauder/hellion/thor has 0 hard counter possibility.
Actually... brood lords or battlecruisers or carriers or void rays, sticking to a single-unit compositions.
In fact, hydra/broodlord (with a side of corruptors) against P would actually qualify for something that has no single-unit hard counter.
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It takes a lot of micro to make Zerg do what it should be capable of without it. Zerg is also a little UP at this point.
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cause they dont have blink stalkers or reapers =)
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Personally, I would've picked Zerg as my main race if only the ZvZ matchup didn't make me want to throttle someone.
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Just a suggestion to this thread...
Stop Theorycrafting because yes, it's possible to find a unit composition that will counter something...but that isn't the main problem. Half the time, the main problem is getting to that point (sizable armies fighting each other). People can say whatever they want and yes, there are builds for that (like some 5 minute bcs build i read once), however for me, the problem is actually staying alive and having the time to find the right unit comp to fight against other races.
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The likely reasons are:
1: Zerg have less unit types
2: As a result Zerg have less strategic options
3: Zerg units have very few unique abilities
4. Most units don't even have any kind of bonus damage.
>>> They are very bland.
I used to play Zerg, but I switched to Terrans now, not because there is so much "T is OP", but because there are much more options on how I want to play when going T.
I would probably be more happy about Zerg, if they would have more unit types.
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On the subject of team games, I am a Zerg player and have actually thought about switching for 3v3 and 4v4. For me it's not a question of units or fun or balance or any of the usual discussions. It's because Zerg depend heavily on creep, but it's a little more difficult to creep in some 3v3 and 4v4 maps when your allies are not zerg. A prime example is maps with a single choke for your team, where your allies are trying to wall off and you are trying to spread creep tumors. Obviously you can use overlords to generate beyond the wall, but think about wall defense where you want your hydras/banelings/roaches to have high speed.
I tend to favor muta harass play on maps like that because of this, but I have also considered just switching to a different race which doesn't depend on creep to make their units able to stand up to others.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Because they have crap voice-announcer.
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I'd say zerg is played less because there is no more plague ability. I mean, what's the fun in playing zerg if you can't look forward to yelling "PLAYGOOOOOOOOOOOO" in the late game. "Fungal growth" just isn't as fun to say.
To be honest for a moment though, I think it's just because the game is still new, and the metagame isn't as developed yet. As of right now, a large chunk of scII players are either people from WC3, Dota, or people who just picked up the game with no rts experience. After playing through the campaign, the people newer to the game are going to be more comfortable with what they already know (terran and protoss).
As time goes by, people are either going to get bored, and switch races, or the metagame will evolve and zerg players will start creating more adventurous strategies that are stronger and more appealing.
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On August 13 2010 08:34 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 07:22 zomgzergrush wrote:
Furthermore, it is not possible to create an army composition that has no weakness as zerg, compared to P and T. T mech especially is a prime example. tank/rauder/hellion/thor has 0 hard counter possibility. Actually... brood lords or battlecruisers or carriers or void rays, sticking to a single-unit compositions. In fact, hydra/broodlord (with a side of corruptors) against P would actually qualify for something that has no single-unit hard counter.
When P has enough stalkers + a few colossus, broodlords + hydra are both countered.
The broodlords still don't do a ton of damage against the stalkers when the broodlings vaporize instantly and hydras get toasted by the row against the colossus. At least the broodlords actually do some sort of damage in this matchup, though, and that corruptors are actually viable against the colossus.
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EPT
