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As a platinum (not pro nor totally retarded) random player I cringe every time I draw zerg.
Their macro game is fine, but it seems that their counter units are just worst than what other races can bring, is significantly harder to pull off, or is too high in the tech tree.
As Terran or Protoss you can generally have a generic game plan and stick to it. Be it bio or mech ball, or Stalkers+Sentry+Colossus or quick VRs. On the flip side of the coin, Zerg is IMO way too reactionary in sc2. I have the feeling that zerg units are so easily hard-countered that I end out not having any idea what to do.
Zerg units also feel WAY overpriced, like the game is balanced around the idea that zerg automatically has better macro. For instance a Brood Lord costs almost as much as a carrier, yet is much more situational than its Protoss counterpart.
Finally, the biggest problem I face when I draw zerg is the lack of versatility. This is especially true in large scale games like FFA when it can end out being your 200/200 vs their 200/200. In SC2, Zerg has no "I can mass XXXXX and be fine". In SC1 it was the hydra, but in sc2 they're much too slow, clostly and squishy to fill this role. This is why it's hard to have a mid-game plan that is isn't entirely tied to what the other guy is making, whereas both other races can make armies that are good all-around.
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On August 12 2010 01:54 Phrencys wrote:
As a platinum (not pro nor totally retarded) random player I cringe every time I draw zerg.
Their macro game is fine, but it seems that their counter units are just worst than what other races can bring, is significantly harder to pull off, or is too high in the tech tree.
As Terran or Protoss you can generally have a generic game plan and stick to it. Be it bio or mech ball, or Stalkers+Sentry+Colossus or quick VRs. On the flip side of the coin, Zerg is IMO way too reactionary in sc2. I have the feeling that zerg units are so easily hard-countered that I end out not having any idea what to do.
Zerg units also feel WAY overpriced, like the game is balanced around the idea that zerg automatically has better macro. For instance a Brood Lord costs almost as much as a carrier, yet is much more situational than its Protoss counterpart.
Finally, the biggest problem I face when I draw zerg is the lack of versatility. This is especially true in large scale games like FFA when it can end out being your 200/200 vs their 200/200. In SC2, Zerg has no "I can mass XXXXX and be fine". In SC1 it was the hydra, but in sc2 they're much too slow, clostly and squishy to fill this role. This is why it's hard to have a mid-game plan that is isn't entirely tied to what the other guy is making, whereas both other races can make armies that are good all-around.
Personally, I think that reactivity is pretty cool. It's a very unique flavour for the race, and can encourage gameplay deviations like... sometimes it's a good idea to save minerals and larvae, rather than spend them as fast as possible! (Completely counter to conventional gameplay wisdom -- and certainly counter to Starcraft 1 zerg playstyles.)
For instance, you can mass larvae knowing you're going to make an army soon, but not be sure what exactly you want it to be. You scout and scout and scout. And it looks like the terran is not going to be able to build tons of anti-air very quickly. So you quickly make 10-15 mutas from saved resources and larvae. Devastatingly effective -- and really, damn near impossible to scout.
CheckPrime does this in several of his games, btw. Feel free to check them out.
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On August 11 2010 07:40 muse5187 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 07:32 Glufs wrote:On August 11 2010 07:30 muse5187 wrote:On August 11 2010 07:28 pieisamazing wrote:On August 11 2010 07:19 muse5187 wrote:
This thread has become a shit storm of flaming kids that don't know crap.
BTW this isn't the blizzard forums go bitch there, theres about 50million threads about this and you all repeat the same thing like a god damn broken record. Thanks for your brilliant input. There's so many topics because there's a problem. Yes, I agree users don't know how to play zerg. This thread is essentially not about zerg being underpowered. It's about why zerg is played less. If you read the last 10 pages it's apparent its de-railed into why zerg sucks. Any thread opened about zerg turns into this bullshit.
The biggest bullshit is your ninja edit troll.
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I think if they decreased the Lair/Hive morph time, put roaches back to 2 armor, and give Hydras the speed upgrade they had in BW, then we'll see a bit more balance, especially VS Terran. I'm a Terran player right now and I would love to play Zerg full time, but my lack of skill and the units themselves make it very tedious and very frustrating to play. I think the stated changes would help, but my ideas may be flawed.
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I love how Terran goes up and all the races go down as you go from Diamond to Bronze. Hehehe
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On August 11 2010 19:55 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 18:02 Darkn3ss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Wow. I wish I could read all fifteen pages but I really need to be going to sleep and I'm just dieing to make a post it this thread so here it goes.
First of all, I think a lot of people argue against zerg being underpowered just for the sake of arguing. Please stop that as it's not really helping at all.
Secondly, I think posts from anyone, who's not in diamond league, should not even be considered. I mean, face it, if you're not in diamond - you really... REALLY suck! Getting to diamond is the easiest thing in the world, so even posts from a lot of diamond players shouldn't be taken seriously.
The whole: "Blizzard introduced Terran in this campaign, therefore a lot of people play Terran" is irrelevant, as well, since those players aren't skilled enough to determine whether they lost because of true imbalance or because they have 4K minerals in the bank after 10 minutes into the game and are still sitting at ~90 supply with 0-0 upgrades.
Yes, it is harder to play zerg at lower levels. Yes it might turn a lot of newer people off... but what about experienced Brood War players? I mean they know the basics of each race so it shouldn't be as hard... right? Right.
Let's think back to BW. Can you imagine zerg winning without Dark Swarm, occasional well placed plagues, crackling/ultra/lurkers all mixed together? Obviously there were games where Terran either pulled some risky moves or totally got caught off guard by something, therefore losing the game early... but really Zerg couldn't survive without dark swarm and once the game got to that stage it was up to Terran to make something happen. Do you remember how zerg was able to hold off until Hive/Dark Swarm/Ultras? Mutalisk harass keeping terran in his base, delaying his push and forcing him to make turrets while zerg is getting lurkers... the lurkers forcing terran to get siege tanks (unless he has some amazing M&M micro...) vessels, and forcing scans, etc. (Obviously people that just picked up the game wouldn't know anything about it but still would like to "prove" to others that everything is balanced and everyone just needs to "QQ moar/less")
Attacking Terran's third(fourth?) is such a pain in the ass since it's, most likely defended by a PF. What about cannons? Cannons were such a pain in the ass in BW but ling/swarm made it a lot easier to take down. In SC2 there is no Dark Swarm.
In SC2 Muta harass is nearly nonexistent... not by BW standards, at least. Turrets do like 75% more damage to mutas and mutas just feel a lot slower. In BW you could get 11 mutas with +1 and 2 shot turrets and pick off stray marines without too much of a threat (other than mismicro/awesome micro on opponent's part). With improved pathing of SC2 it's basically impossible to pick off marines since they always stay in a tight ball. (Improved pathing also allows siege tanks to kill a shitload of units with a couple of shots! But that's beside the point.) It's also A LOT harder to snipe high templar, etc...
Lurkers. Lurkers had the longest range out of all zerg ground units in BW and also did splash (duuhhrrr, right?). They also posed a threat! You could contain a protoss in his base until he had observers. Contained terran, to a degree, until vessels. Lurkers were an overall great support unit, looked badass and were very fun to use! (Whether in a straight up game or a 2-hatch lurker drop.) Obviously there are no lurkers in SC2... we have a poor excuse of a "splash-dealer" that's called Baneling... which is useless at anything other than busting walls or killing marine balls. Not, zerg has only one unit that has range over 3... which is slow ass hydra... (hydras in ZvT anyone?) XD
Then people use this against the zerg and say: "All these noob zergs mass roaches all game then QQ that they're underpowered..." What should I mass, tell me please!
SC2 zerg are FORCED to spread creep, which I feel should give you a bonus instead of being a requirement to have ANY mobility... (shit like drops/nydus is very situational when compared to other races... I mean medics don't even take spots in dropships anymore... THEY ARE the dropships...) Also, as someone mentioned, zerg macro "abilities/mechanics" don't stact... so it's far more punishing if you forget to spawn larva, than if you forget mule/chrono boost.
Sunken colonies... I mean do you remember how hard it used to be to break like 6 sunken colonies? It used to be Lings+Sunks/Muta/Lurker/Hive tech... Now-a-days, with units like Marauder, "sunken breaks" are so much easier! T_T
Zerg also lack detection... I mean having overlords detect was kind of cheap... but not having overlords detect is horrible too! I mean if all overlords turned into overseers after lair, I guess it would be ok... but meh, who am I to make balance suggestions?
Spells...
Lol zerg spells...... first of all, how easy is it to spot an infestor in a zerg ball? You have to be blind to not see one... How easy is it to see a High Templar or a Ghost in P/T balls? Easy? Oh, go ahead and cloak those ghosts, please! ^^
How is this relevant? How hard is it to snipe a unit that's immobile while it's casting one of its spells? (When it looks like the Infestor, not too hard, I'd imagine...)
Fungal Growth? What's with the poor excuse of plague? It doesn't help when all of the units can be healed and most still have the range to attack your units.
Infested Terrans? Well if you can get those infestors in your opponents main undetected and throw some eggs all over his mineral line - awesome! Other than that, they're pretty shitty tbh.
I'm not going to get into the whole autocast thing and 20 storms/forcefields at the same time.... let's pretend that those are balanced for now...
Zerg is really lacking something... something big! Whether it's lurker/dark swarm or something totally new... but work needs to be done and you just can't deny it.
The fact that you lose to zerg with your mid-diamond skills because you didn't wall off or massed nothing but hellions for 10 minutes doesn't prove the fact that they're not underpowered... it just proves the fact that terran can lose to zerg... lol
When Top-Tier players tell you that the races are imbalanced, I'm pretty sure they're right. We should make a list of all top players who think Z are underpowered. I know a bunch (a lot of them are terran/protoss players).
Saying: "Fuck IdrA/Artosis! Go ask Cool or Gerrard how they feel about zerg!" Doesn't solve anything/make you sound intelligent, because first of all:
-IdrA >> Cool/Gerrard based on his performance in KingOfBeta tourney, where he slayed Tester, who, afaik >>> the whole Prime clan/team... (Cool lost, in GGI, to an unknown Canadian protoss with 60% winrate)
-We also don't know how Cool or Gerrard or Sen or, whoever else is a badass Zerg player out there, feel! They could, as well, complain about imbalance.
PS: I used to love posts during beta that went something like this: "Stop QQ'n noob! It's not the race, it's the player! Zerg are fine!" Then on another post they try to convince someone that: "It's BETA! Obviously the can't be perfectly balanced right now! BW took 10 years to be balanced!"
So.... which one is it?
PSS: I think Zerg are sexy. I love the way they look/feel. I love the challenge but sometimes it's just too much. It's like playing MW2 against a wall-hacker... yeah you feel good after killing him "Hacker owned!!!" but you still do get annoyed eventually!
PSSS: I'm like falling asleep so if anything didn't make sense, please point it out and I'll fix it. I'll definitely add more when I come back to this thread.
This is why people hate people going on about Zerg being underpowered. This is just a whinge fest with hardly any evidence or constructive feedback.Most people think Zerg is underpowered and just needs a few (significant) buffs here and there, or the addition of another unit. What you are asking for is an entire rehaul of the whole race. Be reasonable if you're going to talk about Zerg being underpowered. You make the rest of us with actual arguments look bad. As to diamond players being the only ones allowed to post on balance... Your post is the reason why I disagree. You might be diamond, but I have seen far more sensible and better thought out posts from bronze players. Understanding of the game and skill are not the same thing. If you have a good argument, you have a good argument. Skill has nothing to do with it. Edit: Ok, your post isn't THAT bad. I exaggerated. But it's messy. We're all angry that Zerg is pretty fucked up right now but please don't rant about it here. It doesn't actually help the situation at all.
I'm confused. I thought I had some good arguments... and in the end you admit that Zerg ARE, in fact, "pretty fucked up right now"...
...so what's your point? Lol
I'd appreciate if, instead of straight up bashing with generalized statements, you took my post apart and told me what exactly was bad about it and what lacks "good evidence/actual arguments" =)
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the funny thing is, this Zerg = weak/underrepresented trend is really only in US/EU. In KR, at least according to data of the top players in KR ladder, Protoss is the weak race, while Zerg is doing okay and Terran still more or less dominates. x\
EDIT: don't believe me? search it.
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On August 12 2010 01:58 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 01:54 Phrencys wrote:
As a platinum (not pro nor totally retarded) random player I cringe every time I draw zerg.
Their macro game is fine, but it seems that their counter units are just worst than what other races can bring, is significantly harder to pull off, or is too high in the tech tree.
As Terran or Protoss you can generally have a generic game plan and stick to it. Be it bio or mech ball, or Stalkers+Sentry+Colossus or quick VRs. On the flip side of the coin, Zerg is IMO way too reactionary in sc2. I have the feeling that zerg units are so easily hard-countered that I end out not having any idea what to do.
Zerg units also feel WAY overpriced, like the game is balanced around the idea that zerg automatically has better macro. For instance a Brood Lord costs almost as much as a carrier, yet is much more situational than its Protoss counterpart.
Finally, the biggest problem I face when I draw zerg is the lack of versatility. This is especially true in large scale games like FFA when it can end out being your 200/200 vs their 200/200. In SC2, Zerg has no "I can mass XXXXX and be fine". In SC1 it was the hydra, but in sc2 they're much too slow, clostly and squishy to fill this role. This is why it's hard to have a mid-game plan that is isn't entirely tied to what the other guy is making, whereas both other races can make armies that are good all-around. Personally, I think that reactivity is pretty cool. It's a very unique flavour for the race, and can encourage gameplay deviations like... sometimes it's a good idea to save minerals and larvae, rather than spend them as fast as possible! (Completely counter to conventional gameplay wisdom -- and certainly counter to Starcraft 1 zerg playstyles.) For instance, you can mass larvae knowing you're going to make an army soon, but not be sure what exactly you want it to be. You scout and scout and scout. And it looks like the terran is not going to be able to build tons of anti-air very quickly. So you quickly make 10-15 mutas from saved resources and larvae. Devastatingly effective -- and really, damn near impossible to scout. CheckPrime does this in several of his games, btw. Feel free to check them out.
A fast tech switch is one of the most devastating things I feel like I can do as Z to cement my lead, but the map pools (and to a degree, the gas intensive nature of Z) makes it hard to do when the two sides are equal, barring some awesome TLO-like infestor usage and a magical gas reserve building up from nowhere, it is hard to to actually transition into something. About the only thing we can more or less tech switch into unconditionally is lings, and to an extent, roaches. Dunno, I honestly feel like Z's army variety is too low and the econ requirement too high for this racial advantage to play out. We invariably see some kind of a Roach-Mute thing, seldom do we see the transition to say, hydras, and infestors aren't even an option. It does come in handy a bit late game where the power of broodlords and ultras demand pretty different kind of units.
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On August 11 2010 00:13 dybydx wrote:
this is the same with SC1
i started out playing toss because it was the 1a2a3a race, building cannon d was also very intuitive. you control fewer units in total because each fighting unit was at least 2 supplies. so protoss was the noob race.
terran on the other hand, almost every unit has a manually activated skill, like stim, siege, etc. you cant just 1a to victory.
zerg is the hardest to play for beginners. from the get go, when to get overlord and when to get 2nd hatch is not a simple decision for a beginner.
so ya, the population breakdown seems to make sense.
i main terran and i 've always thought that protoss was more micro intensive than terran, unless you are going something like thor/marauder/tank/hellion with scvs to repair the thors on the go
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Zerg isn't played as much because they're horrible. Cmon, Idra says that time and time again and nobody listens. Zerg is terrible and that's just fact.
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They're bugs, you kill bugs dont toy with them.
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Well...
- They are considered the weakest race (be it right or wrong, it decreases its popularity, many play fotm)
- Their design may be considered ugly and not appaling, their is no voice acting too (like in a mmo people prefer human to orcs).
- They feel very different than terran and protoss to play, less straightforward and therefore may be considered far harder for a newcomer
- Other reasons I'm not thinking about...
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can we have more threads like this please, original threads are just awesome !
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I have just switched T->Z. T became very boring for me. I was playing in top diamond for awhile, and some of my victories seem to be undeserved. Its always turtling and moving out. Zerg is more fun, there is always action going on. Although I had to sacrifice my good stats and move to somewhere in the mid of diamond league. But I get more satisfaction from the game and thats what is important.
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Good post by darkness on page 15. I won't go on and mention everything I find UP with zerg but I can tell you right now that I would bet real money on a terran nerf next patch at 1.25 decimal odds. I would put down my own money on it.
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at team i totally think zerg is worse than all because most team games are based of early game and thats when zerg is real bad.
In 1v1 its probably because people (including myself) find more enjoyable playing p and t, not because its worse or ZvT is imbalanced (l2p)
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I'm sure someone has already mentioned the campaign, where you play Terran, and occasionally Protoss, and kill Zerg. Secondly, they are presumed to be underpowered in the community. Thirdly, they have the least units. And finally, they have the most odd mechanics. Terran and Protoss make units from a variety of unit producing structures. Zerg just use larvae.
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Nothing to do with the campaign.
Zerg gets bitch slapped left and right by the other two races, is forced to only respond to what the opponent is doing, and is incapable of doing any meaningful early game aggression. Furthermore, by late game, it is not possible to squander enough forces to overrun the enemy forces. Reinforcing has nothing to do with it. ZvMech especially, your maxed Z army is just a joke.
Furthermore, it is not possible to create an army composition that has no weakness as zerg, compared to P and T. T mech especially is a prime example. tank/rauder/hellion/thor has 0 hard counter possibility. Every zerg unit in the game gets hard countered so hard by any one of those components. For P, the colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot but at the very least it's possible to snipe colossus with some corruptor here.
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Yeah, could you please? I actually want quotes from top Korean zerg players, though -- normal people whine in every game about everything.
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EPT
