EPT
But I like toss so it's ok :D wanna be able to play both races tho, but right now I don't feel like playing Z because TvZ is just too frustrating
Why is Zerg played less? - Page 18
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
But I like toss so it's ok :D wanna be able to play both races tho, but right now I don't feel like playing Z because TvZ is just too frustrating | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
People don't play zerg because you need to be able to think to play zerg. To play Protoss or Terran you can follow a playbook and a-move your way to victory all the way up to mid diamond (or mech crawl if that's your thing). Zerg can't do this and even as low as vs plat players zerg needs to actually have good game sense and be able to run their production and expansions properly. Any zerg build advice past an opening + general unit mix concepts is worthless. Meanwhile you can really follow a Protoss or Terran gameplan from start to finish up to 200 food and still have a good success rate. Think about it, one of the hardest things for Zerg to stop in save ZvP are 2gate and 4 gate pushes. All the way up to mid/high diamond a well executed by the book 2gate or 4gate push can beat many zergs as they're likely to over-drone or under-drone in response. A lot of players don't want to have to think, they just want to win so they play T or P so they don't have to think. Builds, push timings, expansion timings, these are all things T and P players can copy from better players to win games. Zerg doesn't have this option and it takes a lot of trial and error + dedicated work to properly figure out on each map, matchup, and strategy how to properly defend + econ. On top of that without defense unit(s) or strong aoe damage units Zerg's ability to win underdog fights relies on positioning and other harder to pick up on tactics. So players switch because they don't want to do the work. | ||
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SlowBlink
United States102 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:01 Logo wrote: I don't really know how or why this got to 18 pages. The reason is simple and has nothing to do with balance. People don't play zerg because you need to be able to think to play zerg. To play Protoss or Terran you can follow a playbook and a-move your way to victory all the way up to mid diamond (or mech crawl if that's your thing). Zerg can't do this and even as low as vs plat players zerg needs to actually have good game sense and be able to run their production and expansions properly. Any zerg build advice past an opening + general unit mix concepts is worthless. Meanwhile you can really follow a Protoss or Terran gameplan from start to finish up to 200 food and still have a good success rate. Think about it, one of the hardest things for Zerg to stop in save ZvP are 2gate and 4 gate pushes. All the way up to mid/high diamond a well executed by the book 2gate or 4gate push can beat many zergs as they're likely to over-drone or under-drone in response. A lot of players don't want to have to think, they just want to win so they play T or P so they don't have to think. Builds, push timings, expansion timings, these are all things T and P players can copy from better players to win games. Zerg doesn't have this option and it takes a lot of trial and error + dedicated work to properly figure out on each map, matchup, and strategy how to properly defend + econ. So what you're saying is, it's not harder for zerg players to win, it's just easier for protoss and terran players to win. I understand completely... | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:01 Logo wrote: I don't really know how or why this got to 18 pages. The reason is simple and has nothing to do with balance. People don't play zerg because you need to be able to think to play zerg. To play Protoss or Terran you can follow a playbook and a-move your way to victory all the way up to mid diamond (or mech crawl if that's your thing). Zerg can't do this and even as low as vs plat players zerg needs to actually have good game sense and be able to run their production and expansions properly. Any zerg build advice past an opening + general unit mix concepts is worthless. Meanwhile you can really follow a Protoss or Terran gameplan from start to finish up to 200 food and still have a good success rate. Think about it, one of the hardest things for Zerg to stop in save ZvP are 2gate and 4 gate pushes. All the way up to mid/high diamond a well executed by the book 2gate or 4gate push can beat many zergs as they're likely to over-drone or under-drone in response. A lot of players don't want to have to think, they just want to win so they play T or P so they don't have to think. Builds, push timings, expansion timings, these are all things T and P players can copy from better players to win games. Zerg doesn't have this option and it takes a lot of trial and error + dedicated work to properly figure out on each map, matchup, and strategy how to properly defend + econ. On top of that without defense unit(s) or strong aoe damage units Zerg's ability to win underdog fights relies on positioning and other harder to pick up on tactics. So players switch because they don't want to do the work. I very much disagree. I liked the whole analytical aspect of Z where you have to balance workers/attack units very delicately to win. I liked that the race worked so differently from the two other races. What I did not like was being very limited in the beginning of the game, having to play very reactively and forced to defend harrass instead of going on the offensive. That being said, I think you have a very good point saying that Z players just cannot follow a simple build order all the way to dimaond | ||
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blindsniper
United States143 Posts
Zerg has 9 while the other two races have 12. Missing 3 units is kind of a big problem with Zerg. (Unless you intend to bring your queens into battle, lol) That's all I'm going to say. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:07 Angra wrote: I'm playing random right now and zerg is definitely my least favorite race. It's not really because of balance at all, they just aren't fun. In BW they were so different from protoss and terran because of how their economy worked and how fragile they were at lots of points in the game (needing defiler/lurker play to defend), but now in SC2 they're just like the other two races: make a bunch of shit and you'll probably win. Yeah, they're missing that climax that hive tech brought that made things much more intense especially at late game with cracklings ultra and filer. Now in sc2, cracklings are much weaker, even though they have the AI. Ultra are a joke, and the infestors spells are rather unimpressive. On August 13 2010 09:55 Jenslyn87 wrote: I can only speak for myself. I switched form Z to P 5 days ago and tbh, I'm already doing as well with P as I ever did with Z. They're just in kind of a rough spot now imo. Especially ZvT is hard (newsflash!!!), you just feel like it's an uphill struggle constantly with tons and tons of pressure But I like toss so it's ok :D wanna be able to play both races tho, but right now I don't feel like playing Z because TvZ is just too frustrating My sentiments exactly. Even though ZvP can sometimes be rough if they commit to all warpgate plays, it doesn't compare to being 2-3 bases ahead and trying to break a T ball using a 200/200 Z army that works about as good as flies on a windshield. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:05 SlowBlink wrote: So what you're saying is, it's not harder for zerg players to win, it's just easier for protoss and terran players to win. I understand completely... No not really. I don't think it's necessarily harder or easier for either side in the absolute sense, it's just that with T & P someone else has done the hard work for you. If you 2-gate zealot push and have all of your timings down crisp and decent unit control you'll be able to gain the advantage in ZvP by 5-6 minutes probably all the way up to 400-500 diamond. @Jenslyn87 The people who play zerg, like me and you, are the people who do like this aspect of the race. It's just that people like us don't make up the 30% of the SC2 population that would make zerg properly represented. Of course our numbers should probably be higher than they are due to balance perception, but I think even if Zerg was accepted as well balanced they'd still be a lower played %. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
because the massive amounts of people who bought the game on release and didn't play beta are more familiar with terran and protoss, and as a result will favour races they feel more comfortable with. | ||
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SlowBlink
United States102 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:21 Logo wrote: No not really. I don't think it's necessarily harder or easier for either side in the absolute sense, it's just that with T & P someone else has done the hard work for you. If you 2-gate zealot push and have all of your timings down crisp and decent unit control you'll be able to gain the advantage in ZvP by 5-6 minutes probably all the way up to 400-500 diamond. @Jenslyn87 The people who play zerg, like me and you, are the people who do like this aspect of the race. It's just that people like us don't make up the 30% of the SC2 population that would make zerg properly represented. Of course our numbers should probably be higher than they are due to balance perception, but I think even if Zerg was accepted as well balanced they'd still be a lower played %. As a general rule, I (and most people) find thinking to be harder than not thinking. If your argument is that you have to think to play as zerg (and you don't for other races), then it's going to be harder to play as zerg. I don't agree with either point to be honest, I just thought I'd let you know what I thought of your argument. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:11 blindsniper wrote: Zerg is played less because it's missing some units. Zerg has 9 while the other two races have 12. Missing 3 units is kind of a big problem with Zerg. (Unless you intend to bring your queens into battle, lol) That's all I'm going to say. protoss minus warp prism?, archon, carrier, mothership | ||
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SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
New players like the bling bling bling | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 13 2010 10:27 SlowBlink wrote: As a general rule, I (and most people) find thinking to be harder than not thinking. If your argument is that you have to think to play as zerg (and you don't for other races), then it's going to be harder to play as zerg. I don't agree with either point to be honest, I just thought I'd let you know what I thought of your argument. Well fair enough, but either way it's not really a counter to my argument. If you're trying to say that Zerg can follow a preset build as well as Protoss or Terran than well, you're kinda delusional. It's perfectly clear from watching or playing any reasonable amount of zerg games that they have to constantly adapt and bend their builds after seeing key points in their opponent's plan while a by the books 2-gate is going to be reasonably effective all the way up through diamond. @Lucius just because people haven't found a use YET for those units doesn't make them useless. You can find plenty of replays as is where those units actually do get used and to good effect. Though queens should count as a unit. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Let's say you get into this fist fight with one of your friends. He has absolutely no training in fighting but is naturally more athletic then you due to his genetic superiority. He has jabs, uppercuts, kicks, and all sorts of other attacking abilities up his sleeve. You on the other hand are meek and require tons of training to match your friends physical prowess. Ok the fight starts and he starts throwing punches and kicks all over the place. If a single one of these hit, you instantly fall over and lose the fight. You keep blocking and blocking with the utmost precision that you have learned through your hours and hours of physical training. A single misread on one of his attacks and you are out for the count. Over time he tires out and you can finally deliver a single blow for the win. Pray that you don't tire out before he does or you also lose. Ok now imagine your friend is the terran race and you are the zerg. His jabs and kicks are 1 base all-ins and your blocking is all the required defenss you must learn. You fuck up once and you lose. Your friend fucks up once and he continues to throw more shit at you until he wins. Now which position would you rather be in? | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On August 13 2010 09:51 zomgzergrush wrote: When P has enough stalkers + a few colossus, broodlords + hydra are both countered. The broodlords still don't do a ton of damage against the stalkers when the broodlings vaporize instantly and hydras get toasted by the row against the colossus. At least the broodlords actually do some sort of damage in this matchup, though, and that corruptors are actually viable against the colossus. Actually, from my experience stalkers+colossi don't work well at all against that unit combination. Simply put, colossi cannot shoot both hydras and broodlings at the same time and, since focusing hydras while also focusing brood lords and mantaining proper ranges is not that simple, most of the time they end up wasting firepower on the broodlings while the hydras demolish the stalkers. At any rate, they're certainly not a hard counter to that composition. | ||
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kingcomrade
United States115 Posts
edit- People don't play zerg because you need to be able to think to play zerg Yeah right, being successful at Zerg just means you're smarter than everyone. That's rather self-serving, and not true. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
i played zerg in sc1, then made a switch to sc2 and zerg is nothing like it was before. except now zvz even worse. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:40 Mobius wrote: for me.. its just plain boring.. i played zerg in sc1, then made a switch to sc2 and zerg is nothing like it was before. except now zvz even worse. I agree It's just attack attack attack attack, the only caster they have right now the infestor who is a meh in that department. I also think that terran is really well thought out since this is their expansion.you'll have a gazillion upgrades/researches. lol but with regards to balance, I don't think it's that underbalanced.. you just need to do some gimmicky stuff like burrowed roaches/infestors/m, roach/ling/muta (stop making hydra's in TvZ for fucksake people) then you are off to a good start  | ||
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EoR
Ireland127 Posts
I just kind of fear Zerg is always going to be under-represented, these don't seem like things they could change. | ||
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