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nath
United States1788 Posts
This is just the same as all the balance threads in BW. Those of you complaining suck and are blaming it on something other than your own skill. You are in gold because you are terrible, not because zerg units are inferior."" this, this this THIS. my head explodes at how dumb all the zerg whiners in this thread are. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:06 Hawk wrote: So you mean to tell me that in just three months, people have figured out everything about SC2? When Broodwar is still evolving to this very day?? Or perhaps it's a new game filled with a bunch of people who have an inflated sense of skill. And those people just sit and copy pro strats without having the slightest clue why. Innovation is only happening at the tippy top of diamond and it's just a few months in. I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting the numerous Protoss nerfs throughout beta, and the significant zerg nerfs at the end of beta shouldn't have happened? Since the game evolves, I mean how do we know it wasn't perfectly balanced to begin with? I'm not really sure where the line is drawn between "lol u gotta l2p" and "there is a balance issue" or specifically why you seem to be so sure that there is no balance issue now but I don't see you demanding we revert the game to pre-phase 1. What has changed to signify that turning point between "balanced" and "u gotta to innovate, use ur mobility, bisu build" | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:00 RxN wrote: There were mountains of terran tears a few months ago when toss was stomping their heads in. Those tears went away when blizzard *gasp* changed the balance! What's your point? patches changed way less about that then a huge change in playstyle. back then evryone did mostly bio , tanks were considered weak, no one harrassed. inshort evryone was playing shit. gameplay evolved and much of the problems disappeared. sc2 forum on tl is sadly almost as bad as bnet today. evryone is highfiving eachother over how terrible their race is. its sad ,stupid and incredibly annoying. switch race or spam blizzard with your tears. no one here wants to read the angry rants of silver players and it def wont change anything. and thank you hawk for bringing some sense into this thread. always nice to see that im not the only one whos pissed off by the endless QQ bandwagon that the sc2 forum has become. On August 11 2010 00:13 floor exercise wrote: I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting the numerous Protoss nerfs throughout beta, and the significant zerg nerfs at the end of beta shouldn't have happened? Since the game evolves, I mean how do we know it wasn't perfectly balanced to begin with? I'm not really sure where the line is drawn between "lol u gotta l2p" and "there is a balance issue" or specifically why you seem to be so sure that there is no balance issue now but I don't see you demanding we revert the game to pre-phase 1. What has changed to signify that turning point between "balanced" and "u gotta to innovate, use ur mobility, bisu build" dont think anyone can state the game is balanced or not right now. the difference is good/smart guys try to get better and find ways to win. while 99% of the guys that constantly bitch about their race do nothing but .. well bitch about their race. and when evry single thread is filled with tears now it gets annoying to a point where after 7 years of tl think twice about visiting the forums now. | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
I play zerg, I have run into mech, 4 gates, hellion drops and other "ZOMG IMBA" strategies. I feel something is wrong with zerg. The lack of options and ability to be agressive needs to be fixed. This could be fixed by as little as a new pack of maps that are bigger, or by race-chaning buffs/nerfs. Hell, by removing chokes from a map suddenly all those terrans who think skill is walling up, executing a build order, and going 1a2a... will suddenly have their eyes opened. Seriously, imagine playing a 1v1 on a map with a long rush distance like twilight fortress with chokes as big. I would gladly just run around a mech army on that map. | ||
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RxN
United States255 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:13 floor exercise wrote: I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting the numerous Protoss nerfs throughout beta, and the significant zerg nerfs at the end of beta shouldn't have happened? Since the game evolves, I mean how do we know it wasn't perfectly balanced to begin with? I'm not really sure where the line is drawn between "lol u gotta l2p" and "there is a balance issue" or specifically why you seem to be so sure that there is no balance issue now but I don't see you demanding we revert the game to pre-phase 1. What has changed to signify that turning point between "balanced" and "u gotta to innovate, use ur mobility, bisu build" What changed was that his race became the best race. | ||
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MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
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Azile
United States339 Posts
There is no 'overwhelming swarm', there is no extra mobility, there is no mass of low supply units. Everything other than zerglings is 2+ supply, slow as shit off creep, and just about damn near every T2+ unit requires a shitload of gas to get on the field, not to mention the upgrades to go with them. 200/200 armies destroy zerg and the theory here is those units are completely expendable for zerg because they can replace them in a heartbeat.. but that's just not the reality. Watch any replay where zerg ends up having to play that way in the end-game, they always have to make fewer and fewer of their good units and just supplement with zerglings because their gas can't keep up and everytime you lose an army the terran player takes out an expansion or two of yours as thanks since most of his army survived. Mass ultra/hydra/broodlord turns into ultra/hydra turns into ultra/zergling turns into zergling turns into GG.You can't beat his ground army, so you have to make broodlords, you can't keep your broodlords alive because of his vikings, you make corruptors or mutas to kill the vikings and now you can't afford a ground army because you spent 5k in gas just to get your corruptors and broodlords out and they're still dying to his vikings because they are more mobile and far cheaper thus easier to mass. Meanwhile his tank/thor army still owns the map and you're getting pushed out of the game entirely as vikings raid your expansions every few seconds. This is all assuming you made it to the mid-game in between fast bunker pushes if you FE, constant hellion harass, the fast MM/Tank push, cloaked banshees in your drones, etc. The supposed advantages of zerg just don't work. I don't know what needs to be adjusted to fix it but anyone can see it, even terran players who care more about the balance of the game than furiously masturbating to their tank line (the minority in other words). Easy expanding used to be an advantage, but a smart terran will just match you expo for expo while constantly harassing you with hellions and drops and there's nothing you can do about it.. even if you do manage to out expand him and control the map.. you require that just to be even with him, you didn't gain anything you merely succeeded in giving yourself a 50/50 chance to win. . | ||
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JHancho
United States166 Posts
On August 10 2010 22:27 sysrpl wrote: And about the tech switch, yes it is important. It's one of the main strengths. Nothings says you must get all upgrades. Make a tech switch, flank the enemy, surprise him. Hydras still counter air without getting all their upgrades. Lings still counter immortals and stalkers without upgrades. If you scout the enemy army composition heavy in one area, switch tech and gain and advantage. Use spawn larva and your hatcheries to store up a ton of larva. Don't be like Idra and throw away all your units to some something which wont work (muta+ling versus thor+hellion). That is just stupid. Switch tech. Thanks for the air and Stalker/Immortal tutorial, but I really don't think that is what giving Zerg fits of rage and sleepless nights. It's most definitely the Terran tank line. What Tech switch do you recommend to deal with that? Hhhm? Burrowed Roaches will work exactly once (unless your opponent is not paying attention). Baneling carpet bombs will work exactly once. Broodlords will force a hasty retreat until the reactored Starports spew out enough Vikings to blot out the sun, in which case the tanks return, and there's only 1 viable unit which is expensive as all get out and dies on the approach to the tank line (the Ultra of course.. but when it gets there... Marauders will two-shot it.) On August 10 2010 21:43 sysrpl wrote: To all the Zerg QQ'ers out there ... Many of you don't realize the strength of your Zerg is their ability to change tech nearly instantly, and to and equal degree to overwhelm your opponent with superior numbers. Their Zerg tech change is made possible because all their units are produced at the same building, the hatchery. You don't need to build 5 spires, 5 spawning pools, 5 ultralisk caverns, ect. If a Zerg player scouts strong anti air, he can immediately switch to hydras or zerglings. The spawn larva abiliy nicely compliments this Zerg strength. If used correctly it allows Zerg players to store up lots and lots of larva which can be combined with a tech switche. The tech switch doesn't seem to be used much though. Recently when Idra played drewbie he kept making the same units over and over again (ling, ultra, with nearly zero micro) trying to force a win, all the while lamenting about his perceived Terran imbalance. When Idra finally made a tech switch to broodlords, he turned a 30 minute stalemate into a win in less than a minute. The lesson, switching tech is a key element to playing Zerg correctly. The Zerg QQ'ers would do well to learn this fact. Having said that, yes there are a few problems with Zerg. Their marco mechanic is more difficult to use than the other races, and they are punished if they don't keep on top of spawn larva. The other races have no such penalty and can catch up with their macro if they forget to drop mules or hit some building with chrono boost. The Zerg also have supply cap and unit composition problems. Due to the supply cost of most of their units, their maxed army doesn't currently constitute "a large swarm". Blizzard either needs to lower the supply cost of some Zerg unit, or introduce another other low supply cost unit. And on the subject of new Zerg units, yes I believe the Zerg needs at least one more unit. I have no idea what it should be, but the Zerg army currently is not diverse enough. This problem diminishes the tech change strength of the Zerg. Adding some new Zerg unit with a unique role would greatly help fix this problem. Possibly Blizzard should bring back the lurker, and make it available as a tier two upgrade (in their prior builds lurker was tier a three upgrade). I don't know what new Zerg unit is needed, but I do believe Zerg more diversity options. Anyhow, those are my thoughts. Take of it what you will. Many of you Terran and maybe Toss players don't realize that to keep on par with the other races, you basically need to be up 1 or more bases. We don't need as many tech buildings, no, but we need more hatcheries and workers, which reduces our theoretical max supply, and leaves us unquestionably vulnerable to raids on the expos or main, since we have to be in position to defend all the bases from a huge push, or drops. And since the ground units we have (with the notable exceptions of Lings, Blings, and Drones) cost 2 or more supply, that further eats into the forces we can muster. I'm most definitely agreeing with you on that point. And more lurker talk. Can't we get a new shiny unit like the Immortal or Marauder? (don't say Roach because both of them absolutely tear Roaches a new one) On August 10 2010 23:30 PanzerDragoon wrote: And you can replace your whole army 7x as fast as they can But that 7x or army is rarely worth the 1x that can be produced by our opponents. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32097 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:13 floor exercise wrote: I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting the numerous Protoss nerfs throughout beta, and the significant zerg nerfs at the end of beta shouldn't have happened? Since the game evolves, I mean how do we know it wasn't perfectly balanced to begin with? I'm not really sure where the line is drawn between "lol u gotta l2p" and "there is a balance issue" or specifically why you seem to be so sure that there is no balance issue now but I don't see you demanding we revert the game to pre-phase 1. What has changed to signify that turning point between "balanced" and "u gotta to innovate, use ur mobility, bisu build" No, patches are sometimes necessary. But they aren't the first option, and certainly not something you turn to just two weeks after a release in a knee jerk reaction because a bunch of dumb, low level zergs are whining. And that's what this thread is: Filled with newb zergs who are complaining. Seriously, everyone after this link to your bnet profile. Probably 70% of the people posting fall under plat, and really, if you're anything besides diamond/very high plat (and even then), you shouldn't be talking about balance. You've been here a while. Historically, do 90% of these 'imbalances' not work themselves out over time when people evolve and adapt? I remember cycles where zerg was imbalanced, then toss cried for months on end about zerg, blah blah blah.... none of this shit changed in bw due to patching. Early years, bw was much more micro oriented, all the builds were constructed in that manner too. Remember a few years back when all the sudden people started doing ridiculous macro builds? FE toss, FE Terran ,2x expo zerg... It's completely a knee jerk reaction to patch balance two weeks into the full release. Ignore the dumb players, analyze the top diamonds and if there's still a balance issue, then it gets addressed. There's hardly an issue now at all. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
The main issue is the incredible synergy of Terran units mixed with a lack of synergy of many of the Zerg units. You can mix 3 varied Terran units and the synergy makes them together rediculously efficient. To combat one of Terrans army mixes of just 3 units, you have to utilize nearly every unit in your arsenal. As someone said earlier, Zerg lacks clear counters for many of Terrans strats. Think just Marines, Tanks, Thors - you need to utilize lings/blings/roaches/infestors/mutas/ultras or BL with optimal micro to be able to break thru, even if the terran player uses minimal micro (put tanks in siege, have a proper formation defending the marines from blings on the inside, and have the marines hold position w/ stim). It's just the comparison of synergy adding efficiency for Terran as they reach more critical mass, with the typically non-efficient Zerg army. | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
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RxN
United States255 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:36 Hawk wrote: No, patches are sometimes necessary. But they aren't the first option, and certainly not something you turn to just two weeks after a release in a knee jerk reaction because a bunch of dumb, low level zergs are whining. And that's what this thread is: Filled with newb zergs who are complaining. Seriously, everyone after this link to your bnet profile. Probably 70% of the people posting fall under plat, and really, if you're anything besides diamond/very high plat (and even then), you shouldn't be talking about balance. You've been here a while. Historically, do 90% of these 'imbalances' not work themselves out over time when people evolve and adapt? I remember cycles where zerg was imbalanced, then toss cried for months on end about zerg, blah blah blah.... none of this shit changed in bw due to patching. It's completely a knee jerk reaction to patch balance two weeks into the full release. Ignore the dumb players, analyze the top diamonds and if there's still a balance issue, then it gets addressed. There's hardly an issue now at all. So why were the patches nerfing toss in the beta necessary? I mean, we only played a few weeks with those patches but it was long enough for the terran tears to become noticeable. Maybe they should have innovated instead of crying loud enough to get things changed. Or is it only OK to bitch about balance when it involves terrans being victimized? | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:36 Hawk wrote: No, patches are sometimes necessary. But they aren't the first option, and certainly not something you turn to just two weeks after a release in a knee jerk reaction because a bunch of dumb, low level zergs are whining. And that's what this thread is: Filled with newb zergs who are complaining. Seriously, everyone after this link to your bnet profile. Probably 70% of the people posting fall under plat, and really, if you're anything besides diamond/very high plat (and even then), you shouldn't be talking about balance. You've been here a while. Historically, do 90% of these 'imbalances' not work themselves out over time when people evolve and adapt? I remember cycles where zerg was imbalanced, then toss cried for months on end about zerg, blah blah blah.... none of this shit changed in bw due to patching. It's completely a knee jerk reaction to patch balance two weeks into the full release. Ignore the dumb players, analyze the top diamonds and if there's still a balance issue, then it gets addressed. There's hardly an issue now at all. While you have a valid point that many of these particular people in this particular thread may be "noobs not qualified to comment on balance," there are many pro-level zergs as well as terrans who can honestly say there is a problem with the balance of the matchup. Oh, and OK, I'll bite. But really saying someone's opinion and interpretation of his own experiences plus their own analysis of other pro player's experiences is invalid because of their profile is kind of silly. Yes I prefer play 2v2, yes I played plenty of 1v1 in beta, no I don't believe that invalidates any of my opinions. My Profile | ||
Opinion
United States236 Posts
I personally don't play Zerg, i don't find them fun and i find their mechanics annoying and cumbersome, BUT i'm not sitting on my high horse claiming that those who do play Zerg suffer from delusions... When Terran has problems, Terrans players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Toss has problems, Toss players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Zerg has problems... OMG ZERG PLAYERS SHUT UP AND L2P YOU ARE FINE LOL. All 3 races are important, under representation is a problem, i don't want this to be Terran vs Protoss game with a side of Zerg. I want ALL 3 RACES to be present and accounted for. There are still problems to be worked out, 2 more expansions on the way, tweaks and changes in the works and continuous player feedback is GOOD. Zerg players are obviously not happy. This is enough for me to accept something needs to change. Happiness and comfort are important, this is a game. Whether or not their happiness is a direct result in imbalance or simply an unknown gameplay tweak is yet to be seen and irrelevant but in the mean time, please understand that all 3 races are important and all 3 races have equal right to speak their minds about imbalances and request fixes. Keep complaining Zerg, keep QQing, keep whining. When Terran and Toss develop problems in the future they will do the same. | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:43 Opinion wrote: The ARROGANCE of these non-Zerg players is astounding. I personally don't play Zerg, i don't find them fun and i find their mechanics annoying and cumbersome, BUT i'm not sitting on my high horse claiming that those who do play Zerg suffer from delusions... When Terran has problems, Terrans players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Toss has problems, Toss players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Zerg has problems... OMG ZERG PLAYERS SHUT UP AND L2P YOU ARE FINE LOL. All 3 races are important, under representation is a problem, i don't want this to be Terran vs Protoss game with a side of Zerg. I want ALL 3 RACES to be present and accounted for. There are still problems to be worked out, 2 more expansions on the way, tweaks and changes in the works and continuous player feedback is GOOD. Zerg players are obviously not happy. This is enough for me to accept something needs to change. Happiness and comfort are important, this is a game. Whether or not their happiness is a direct result in imbalance or simply an unknown gameplay tweak is yet to be seen and irrelevant but in the mean time, please understand that all 3 races are important and all 3 races have equal right to speak their minds about imbalances and request fixes. Keep complaining Zerg, keep QQing, keep whining. When Terran and Toss develop problems in the future they will do the same.  | ||
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ilikejokes
United States217 Posts
On August 10 2010 16:41 Aberu wrote:How larva works is the strength of zerg. While you are attacking you can pump 50 units instantly potentially. Not saying you will, but having the ability to fight at 200/200 food and then reinforce very shortly from 150/200 back up to 200/200 is something the other races just don't have. Warp Gates... | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:16 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: patches changed way less about that then a huge change in playstyle. back then evryone did mostly bio , tanks were considered weak, no one harrassed. inshort evryone was playing shit. gameplay evolved and much of the problems disappeared. sc2 forum on tl is sadly almost as bad as bnet today. evryone is highfiving eachother over how terrible their race is. its sad ,stupid and incredibly annoying. switch race or spam blizzard with your tears. no one here wants to read the angry rants of silver players and it def wont change anything. and thank you hawk for bringing some sense into this thread. always nice to see that im not the only one whos pissed off by the endless QQ bandwagon that the sc2 forum has become. dont think anyone can state the game is balanced or not right now. the difference is good/smart guys try to get better and find ways to win. while 99% of the guys that constantly bitch about their race do nothing but .. well bitch about their race. and when evry single thread is filled with tears now it gets annoying to a point where after 7 years of tl think twice about visiting the forums now. You have no one else to blame but TL celebrities like Idra and Artosis, whose crying in high profile matches make players think its ok to act like they do. Frankly, its embarrassing. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:43 Opinion wrote: The ARROGANCE of these non-Zerg players is astounding. I personally don't play Zerg, i don't find them fun and i find their mechanics annoying and cumbersome, BUT i'm not sitting on my high horse claiming that those who do play Zerg suffer from delusions... When Terran has problems, Terrans players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Toss has problems, Toss players complain and those problems eventually get fixed. When Zerg has problems... OMG ZERG PLAYERS SHUT UP AND L2P YOU ARE FINE LOL. All 3 races are important, under representation is a problem, i don't want this to be Terran vs Protoss game with a side of Zerg. I want ALL 3 RACES to be present and accounted for. There are still problems to be worked out, 2 more expansions on the way, tweaks and changes in the works and continuous player feedback is GOOD. Zerg players are obviously not happy. This is enough for me to accept something needs to change. Happiness and comfort are important, this is a game. Whether or not their happiness is a direct result in imbalance or simply an unknown gameplay tweak is yet to be seen and irrelevant but in the mean time, please understand that all 3 races are important and all 3 races have equal right to speak their minds about imbalances and request fixes. Keep complaining Zerg, keep QQing, keep whining. When Terran and Toss develop problems in the future they will do the same. The Terran and Protoss complaints were far less annoying than all the ZvT ones, and pro players weren't BMing in games saying how "they have self-respect" because they don't play terran and other utter garbage from idra and all his sycophants. | ||
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RxN
United States255 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:57 PanzerDragoon wrote: The Terran and Protoss complaints were far less annoying than all the ZvT ones, and pro players weren't BMing in games saying how "they have self-respect" because they don't play terran and other utter garbage from idra and all his sycophants. Ahh, so now there are varying levels of crying and was OK for terran and toss to do it because you perceived it to be less annoying. Sounds logical. | ||
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