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On August 05 2010 05:58 Stratos_speAr wrote:
And the primary part of that industry is the game itself. I'm not taking sides on the specific issue (I don't know exactly what Blizzard was demanding), but you're a fool if you think that Blizzard should just sit back and not take some well-deserved profits for an industry that profits solely from their game. They both deserve part of it, but Blizzard made the game - they deserve a notable part of it.
They got profit, and lot of it from loyalties,sales and advertisement. They want control, and that part is intolerable. Besides, this is not the US, the law is different. That's why Blizz never dare to sue the Koreans.
I found an interesting article on the issue :
http://blog.gang-su.com/?p=16http://blog.gang-su.com/?p=16
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On August 05 2010 05:56 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry?
No, it was a great thing to do but expecting blizzard to just sit back and watch while Kespa ran things was a huge mistake on their part. Blizzard let Kespa hold the reigns for the entire duration of brood war and they were naive to think blizzard would let them do the exact same thing with their new and better game too.
Look at it this way. Say you invented a card game and it became a huge hit so you start selling it for a few bucks. Now some guy really likes the game and thinks it could get even bigger so he starts running tables in a Vegas casino and makes a killing. Wouldn't you agree that the creator of the game should be able to either completely shut this guy in Vegas down or at least get a significant cut?
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On August 05 2010 05:26 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:24 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 05 2010 05:20 FindingPride wrote:
why do so many people want sc2 to fail?
bw was only saved by the community.. If you want to compare vanilla SC2 to vanilla BW.
i think ull find that BW was a stinking pile of crap in terms of balance...(Vanilla) as it stands SC2 has a huge lift up without people needing to void from the bnet community to enter the scene.
and im not saying this to incite flame war. Just think a little before you post... also. Why dont we close this thread? seems to be alot of tense emotion in the air ~_~ Its classic nostalgia effect. You saw the exact same thing with Halo sequels, COunterstrike Source, etc Pretty much any of the bashing on the actual game (there are problems with BNet 2) is just wildly inaccurate I don't think people can make the connection that you cant enjoy things the same way you can when you were younger.
It is good that people aren't biased about seeing NEW or UPDATED as having any positive psychological connotations. Nobody was thinking that SC2 will replace SC after hearing announcement, just becouse it is never, right? I mean people are too biased to see OLD, and OUTDATED as too positive to look at NEW things without a negative bias.
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zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually.
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The reason blizzard shouldn't have tried to step on kespa's toes is because if blizzard did have their way, they would not promote the esports scene nearly as much as organizations like kespa do.
Basically blizzard has no interest in perpetuating and hosting consistent and frequent esports events, but they want to cash in on organizations that do have that interest.
As for sc2 as a game, it doesn't suck just because it isn't bw, and it isn't god's gift to rts games just because it is the sequel.
Let the game stand on it's own merits, look at it from a neutral standpoint.
I do think that whether the game is worthy or not, it is getting way too much hype, and I could easily see it folding in a year or two much like other esports related games/leagues do when they try to succeed purely on hype. (CGS, WSVG)
While NA and EU do not need korea to be on board with sc2 for them to have a healthy tourney scene, it definitely helps a lot when the country at the forefront of esports is in the mix. In korea it's normal for pros to really treat gaming as a job, they come closer to perfection because of how dedicated they are than the americans or europeans usually do. There are good players from NA and EU but because the cultures aren't nearly as enthusiastic about such things obviously the amount of players that put in that sort of dedication with that sort of support are gonna be much lower.
When you see esports done in korea, compared to how it is done in europe and america, it is much much different.
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On August 05 2010 06:19 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry? No, it was a great thing to do but expecting blizzard to just sit back and watch while Kespa ran things was a huge mistake on their part. Blizzard let Kespa hold the reigns for the entire duration of brood war and they were naive to think blizzard would let them do the exact same thing with their new and better game too. Look at it this way. Say you invented a card game and it became a huge hit so you start selling it for a few bucks. Now some guy really likes the game and thinks it could get even bigger so he starts running tables in a Vegas casino and makes a killing. Wouldn't you agree that the creator of the game should be able to either completely shut this guy in Vegas down or at least get a significant cut?
Uh, no.
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Think the biggest mistake blizzard made was to separate the one main game into 3 installments...I remember how many people where pissed over it, it just ruins the momentum of sales and advertising/publicity but hey they thought they where being smart with the cash cow.
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Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content.
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On August 05 2010 06:30 koOma wrote:
zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually.
....Korea should have been the first to buy SC 2 in droves. It's supposed to be a religion over there, if the stats are right then it's a bad sign.
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On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content.
Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it.
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On August 05 2010 06:49 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content. Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it.
Didn't you know? Fellowship of the Ring was a third of a movie!
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On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me
so what about when Kespa used their muscle to ruin the GOMTV Invitationals
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On August 05 2010 03:21 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools. mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost?
He was arguing the opposite point. He was saying that MTG wasn't sustainable because the only reason the money is in the system is because its being pumped in by woc, and how SC2 doesn't suffer from similar issues.
Personally, I'm rooting for Kespa. Not because of morals or anything, its silly to apply individual ethic to corporations. Both are just corporate entities staffed by people genuinely passionate about what they do and run by a few suits. But Kespa's suits has its interested entirely devoted to Esports, all their money is invested into the success of Starcraft as an Esport. For Blizzard, Esports is just so extra profit on the side and a chance to promote their game. If I had to pick which of those companies to subscribe to as a consumer eager for the continued success of Esports, Kespa would be my best bet.
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Maybe those of us in North America will stand a chance against the Koreans when they finally adopt because we'll have so much extra playtime. =)
[quoteThink the biggest mistake blizzard made was to separate the one main game into 3 installments...I remember how many people where pissed over it, it just ruins the momentum of sales and advertising/publicity but hey they thought they where being smart with the cash cow.[/quote]
Or maybe it will build momentum because it will give them a second wave and keep the game fresh.
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There has been a lot of back and forth about the Blizzard-Kespa issue, and in general about the question of whether or not they should get a piece of the esports revenue. I'll leave that to be answered by someone else, but whether you think they should or not, everyone can agree that they are TRYING to get a piece of it. The problem is, their approach, while understandable, has been the wrong one.
I'm not talking about the legal battle with Kespa. Right from the beginning, Blizzard had no involvement whatsoever in esports. As I said, it's understandable, since esports did not exist at all when SC1 came out, so it was easy to ignore the early stages as they took root in Korea and elsewhere. It grew until it got big enough that it would be worthwhile for Blizzard to get a piece of it, and they tried to move in. Therein lies the problem. Everyone is used to Blizzard having no part in esports. You can't let a community like this develop for 12 years and then try to elbow your way in without expecting resistance. Of course Kespa and others are going to fight back, why should they give any of their profits away, when they haven't had to since the beginning? (This is how they see it)
The sad thing is, I think they are going to make exactly the same mistake in Europe and NA. Currently the esports scene is miniscule in both places, compared to Korea. It is most certainly not worth the effort to grab a piece of the occasional $2k tournaments that are run in those places. The movement will continue to grow, free from Blizzard interference, until it reaches some critical point where it DOES make sense for them to put in the effort of getting a piece. Then they will elbow their way in, exactly like they did in Korea. And people will fight it, because they are used to not having to deal with Blizz, or pay them a cut.
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That has nothing to do with the OP.
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10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 06:53 Psychopomp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:49 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content. Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it. Didn't you know? Fellowship of the Ring was a third of a movie!
Did you know? Fellowship of the Ring actually had some depth to it.
Personally, I think Blizzard shouldn't even get a cut from eSports.. they got a shitload of sales from all the games sold, why should they be even greedier and drive up the costs of setting up an eSports tourney? We don't see Valve or Capcom demand money from CS and Street Fighter tourneys, so Blizzard shouldn't demand money either, they've got enough already. Hell, even KeSPA was willing to pay Blizzard a fee for hosting tournaments, but then it made some outrageous demands like auditing KeSPA's finances (seriously what the fuck? It's almost as if they did this just to get them to refuse).
Not only that, but I do recall some old timer posting a thread where he said Blizzard never really helped Brood War as an eSport.. in fact, sometimes they were a detriment. It was the community that raised Brood War from the ground to where it was now, so if anything we should get a cut (the cut being great games haha..)
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Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
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On August 05 2010 06:46 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:30 koOma wrote:
zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually. ....Korea should have been the first to buy SC 2 in droves. It's supposed to be a religion over there, if the stats are right then it's a bad sign.
No. People need to understand that SC2 is NOT Brood War. Brood War is the popular game in Korea, not SC2.
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