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SC2 is a bw and wc3 hybrid. It will probably do as well as wc3 lol. SC2 would be popular if it had a higher skill ceiling because Koreans probably like to show off their skills.
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BW had years and years to sell as much as it did, and WoW uses an intentionally addictive formula to bring and hook players. SC2 has been out only eight days and people are trying to say its a bad game or doing poorly and 1.8 million plus sales? Pfft. I have a special message for all the trolls out there that keep making these redundant and frankly annoying posts. If you do not like SC2, stop bashing it. Go back to BW. Leave the people who like it alone. And finally don't buy it. That is all. Thank you. Whether SC2 gets a pro-scene in Korea is pretty irrelevant its clear that NA and EU are finally ready for a pro-gaming scene around SC2, especially with the MLG / ESL picking up SC2. The pro-scene will be long and vibrant regardless of when or if the majority of Koreans get involved.
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United States10774 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
What a god damn ignorant retard.
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On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
Can you say trolled?
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United States10774 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:14 Snausages wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. Can you say trolled?
Not really, I'm pretty sure he's serious. We are on SC2 forum after all, right? 
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On August 05 2010 07:59 uiotui wrote:
Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
You're assuming an english stats website that requires manually adding divisions has all the data on SEA and Korean server, which judging by the SEA numbers I think it's safe to say it doesn't
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On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
Ignore the slow-clicking ape.
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On August 05 2010 07:59 uiotui wrote:
Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
Going by those numbers and the number of internet users from http://www.internetworldstats.com/list2.htm
A South Korean internet user plays 1v1 ladder in SC2 about 2.5 times more likely than a North American one, and about 4 times more likely than an European user.
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SC2 is more popular in Korea than in America. It's just that BW is still more popular than SC2.
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On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
I never thought I'd read horrible, uninformed posts like these on teamliquid. It seriously makes me sad. Just because macro took more effort in BW doesn't mean it was a spamfest where the players mindlessly click. There was just as much strategy and way, way more skill in deciding exactly which actions you need to do and which situations need focus.
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
There are a myriad of reasons why Koreans aren't playing SC2 but none of them are that SC2 is a bad game or it's too easy or that the "monkeys" (seriously? that's almost ban worthy in my opinion) don't want to play a game not based around "mindless spamming."
There's just more money in BW right now in Korea, you can actually have a career playing it, whereas nothing like that exists for SC2 yet.
I personally am very happy with the situation. Earlier this year I was quite sad about the potential death of professional brood war in Korea after the launch of SC2. I remember thinking "Wow, what if this is the last year of proleague? What if this is the last OSL/MSL?" My heart sunk.
This news, then, is just great. We in the west, who for the most part have quit playing Brood War, get this new game that's fresh and just as fun as BW was when it first came out, and at the same time we still have pro BW in Korea to entertain us. I'm highly anticipating the proleague finals this weekend, possibly more than any proleague finals in the history of Starcraft, and I highly doubt my love for Brood War will ever die -- much like many of the vets on this forum.
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." We just don't want our game to die, that's all. Can you blame us?
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Someone who has access to the Korean server should look at the amount of games being played simultaneously (Can be seen at the Home screen). The players online one apparently has WoW in it as well so we can't use that.
At this moment Europe has 40k games being played.
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There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible.
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Right now SC1 is still ablet o be played for a living(i think?) so once there is SC2 osls and shit then people will start picking it up rapidly
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There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible.
(sigh)
The reason SC2 hasn't taken off as much in Korea has NOTHING to do with MBS. It has to do with marketing and Blizzard's PC Bang rules, and the popularity of the BW pro-scene.
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The popularity of Starcraft as a spectator sport (beyond the "KeSPA took Starcraft and ran with it" implications) has nothing to do with a skill cap. The boundless skill of the players is merely a selling point. Just about anyone can watch the game without any prior knowledge and figure out what's going on. You can't say the same thing about Warcraft III.
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On August 05 2010 08:30 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible. (sigh) The reason SC2 hasn't taken off as much in Korea has NOTHING to do with MBS. It has to do with marketing and Blizzard's PC Bang rules, and the popularity of the BW pro-scene.
I was totally joking.
But if, what if, it turns out to be true? WC3 was certainly an easier game than BW, yet it wasn't as popular. I really would like to hear from Koreans themselves (better off, the progamers' perspectives/analysis/first impressions).
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Well, if this is true, then it's not completely surprising. What if I told you Christianity 2.0 was coming?
Either way, Brood War still has a strong and very profitable following after a decade. It's not going to topple easily, especially considering the differences between the two games.
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Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
The strategy this game contains is build orders, unit compositions, and timings. None of that requires you to sit back and think. Making a game that requires high mechanical skill compliments this type of strategy.
If you want to play a strategy game where you can be as slow as a turtle go play a total war game.
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(following directly from the OP)
And it doesn't matter at all. BW rose up through the bangs because it was a relative unknown in the country. SC2 is already hugely popular outside the bangs and is slated to be added to the proleague and to E-sports here in America, so it in no way fails anywhere else.
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On August 04 2010 15:43 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:37 G3nXsiS wrote:
I honestly don't understand why Koreans are not excited about Starcraft 2. This is when I start to blame Broodwar. It needs to die in order for starcraft 2 to be released. Until then starcraft 2 will never be successful in Korea. Why should Brood War die to make way for Starcraft 2 when Starcraft 2 is currently the inferior game? I want Starcraft 2 to be better, I really do. As it stands right at this point in time Brood War is better. I hope that Blizzard knows what they are doing and addresses the issues with battle.net, regions, lan and fix some of the bland units/gameplay. Then we will have a worthy replacement. As others have said, give it time. For now the OP is an accurate reflection of what is happening right now in Korea and lines up with how I feel about the game.
Are you kidding me? Broodwar a better game? Its a better game because the gamers have perfected it. It took years of development to get to that level. Starcraft 2, however is capable of exceeding that level and should therefore be given more attention. While the level of play might not be the same as Broodwar right now, people need to play it in order to make it better.
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EPT
