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On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
The strategy this game contains is build orders, unit compositions, and timings. None of that requires you to sit back and think. Making a game that requires high mechanical skill compliments this type of strategy.
If you want to play a strategy game where you can be as slow as a turtle go play a total war game.
The term "real-time strategy" has always been a misnomer given that it's probably closer to tactics. That's the issue at hand. It's semantics. It's the same reason people don't particularly like the term "role-playing game". You can make a very easy argument the only true role-playing video game in the thirty-five-year history of "role-playing games" (a genre directly inspired by Dungeons and Dragons) was Deus Ex.
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I was totally joking.
But if, what if, it turns out to be true? WC3 was certainly an easier game than BW, yet it wasn't as popular. I really would like to hear from Koreans themselves (better off, the progamers' perspectives/analysis/first impressions).
Oh, sorry about that, then. Emoticons help in those kinds of situations. 
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On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment.
On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
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Any pressure on Blizzard is good pressure. No LAN, no PC Bangs, no community.
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On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills. I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
Actually, OneOther's post was perfect.  It takes into account the cases of the poster being a troll and if the poster is actually serious.
Also, I don't think there were any balance changes in SCBW since patch 1.08 which was in 2001. =/ It was being patched non-stop, but that's different from actually changing the gameplay of it. And all the hostility is because change is coming to TL. We now have a larger population (YAY!) with more people to contribute valuable information (YAY!!), but we also have more people who're idiots (No  ) who don't know about the history between TL and BW (No ) and thus often disrespect the game which started it all. (No ). This change has also caused a schism (No ) which is now leading to hostility.
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On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way)
Hey man.
This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap?
I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive)
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United States10774 Posts
figq: I am not trying to sound enlightened or enlighten anyone (seems like a lost cause). Closer to just being astounded by someone's ignorance and stupidity.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 05 2010 09:32 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) Hey man. This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap? I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive)
Not right now, but eventually, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'jump your dick' but lets say you were a top foreign pro gamer and you came to Korea, and you could actually compete at the level the Koreans are at now in BW, you'd definitely get some really hardcore fans. I remember going with Elky to his matches and his fans, both guys and girls would bring him small gifts, once he said he liked hersey's chocolate milk in an interview and the next game he had, he came back with like 12 boxes of hersey's chocolate milk. keke. But I would say in Korea in about a year, this will be the only country where you could say to a random chick, yeah I'm a Diamond Zerg with an 800 rating and she'll say, I'm Zerg too, but I'm a only Platinum on the Korea Server, then you'll think about it and if your dick doesn't shrink you you might have a chance to impress her via your SC2 skills ^^
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I've never been to korea, but I'd think women would be more interested in progamers having money and being famous than being good at sc.
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this thread is derptastic.
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On August 05 2010 09:47 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:32 heishe wrote:On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) Hey man. This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap? I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive) Not right now, but eventually, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'jump your dick' but lets say you were a top foreign pro gamer and you came to Korea, and you could actually compete at the level the Koreans are at now in BW, you'd definitely get some really hardcore fans. I remember going with Elky to his matches and his fans, both guys and girls would bring him small gifts, once he said he liked hersey's chocolate milk in an interview and the next game he had, he came back with like 12 boxes of hersey's chocolate milk. keke. But I would say in Korea in about a year, this will be the only country where you could say to a random chick, yeah I'm a Diamond Zerg with an 800 rating and she'll say, I'm Zerg too, but I'm a only Platinum on the Korea Server, then you'll think about it and if your dick doesn't shrink you you might have a chance to impress her via your SC2 skills ^^
LOL sounds great.
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On August 05 2010 09:29 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment. On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills. I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? Actually, OneOther's post was perfect. It takes into account the cases of the poster being a troll and if the poster is actually serious. Also, I don't think there were any balance changes in SCBW since patch 1.08 which was in 2001. =/ It was being patched non-stop, but that's different from actually changing the gameplay of it. And all the hostility is because change is coming to TL. We now have a larger population (YAY!) with more people to contribute valuable information (YAY!!), but we also have more people who're idiots (No ) who don't know about the history between TL and BW (No ) and thus often disrespect the game which started it all. (No ). This change has also caused a schism (No ) which is now leading to hostility. Thanks, those are good points. About the unfortunate anti-BW post, I call it unfortunate, because I think it had grain of truth in it, despite being very offensive. And this is why it got such hostile responses; it's the grain of truth that teases.
I can assure you that there are people who go the SC2->BW path, or at least get themselves more deeply interested in BW (again), because of SC2 attracting them to the whole starcraft community (again). I wish I was seeing better arguments - like, the fact that battles in SC2 with its smooth pathing aren't as interesting as the choppy clumsiness in BW, where you really have to hold your breath watching, and not being absolutely sure how it will go. And the point is: such issues are a bit counter-intuitive for Blizzard as game developers, but ultimately they don't want the perfectly functioning/looking game; they (as us) want the game that is the best to play. So they will certainly experiment with issues like this one.
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You mean we won't have to worry about having no chance because of Koreans?! Thanks for the good news junk! :D
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On August 04 2010 13:51 Anomarad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13:50 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I want to hear from IdrA/Tasteless/Artosis, they could tell us what it's like there. So you want to hear from the guys who's career depends on the success of this game? What do you think they'll tell you?
Probably the truth.
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10387 Posts
Starcraft 2 was not the logical improvement, at least for the Zerg lol.. They got the logical shaft -__-
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On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares.
But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better
This is an partially objective mind you, not an opinion. People can look for different values in a game, and the argument "which is a better game" is highly subjective. But the qualities of an Esport are not subjective, they are an agreed upon consensus.
For the purpose of this discussion, lets quantify them as the following: Value as a Spectator Sport, Skill Cap, and Skill Development. In which of these areas is Sc2 not inferior to BW, with an example.
GL ^_^.
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On August 05 2010 10:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares. But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better ^_^.
I can actually play Starcraft II and have fun. I cannot say the same about Brood War, and neither can the entire world outside of Korea.
This argument is silly and pointless though. Korea doesn't really matter, if they want to stay with BW that's fine. There's no pro BW scene outside of Korea and there is a burgeoning SCII scene.
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On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
Because it does.
It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm.
It is of course possible that you could have a game that was both mechanically easier than SCBW and had less strategy, but if you took SCBW and just added, say, MBS and unlimited control groups, strategy would become mildly more important than it is in SCBW now.
All games exist on a continuum of strategy versus mechanics.
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On August 05 2010 10:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares. But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better ^_^.
For somebody totally uninterested in an argument you're trying awfully hard to bait him.
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EPT
