|
Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is.
August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%. The playtime metric is used to ascertain game popularity. Released on the 27th last month, SC2 posted a dismal 20th in internet cafe playtime but was expected to climb much higher on the weekend, with hopes that old-time starcraft fans would feel nostalgic and rush out to play SC2.
But, on the 31st of last month, the first saturday after release, playtime was at a meager 2.49% (12th). Although the numbers continued to rally to peak at 2.6%, it failed to reach a critical level. This is in stark contrast with SC1, which kept its popularity, hanging on to the 6th spot.
Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not. Taking into account the huge advertisement campaign and the success of the previous installment, the results were somewhat dissappointing. To add further concern, this period coincided with school holidays, a period considered the one of the golden peaks of gaming. So the question remains, where has all the interest gone?
But, what about outright sales you ask? Surely, sales must be going through the roof since SC2 is such a great game. Unfortunately, SC2 is not even in the top10 games sold in korea.
Dissappointingly, Blizzard's new game Starcraft 2 is struggling even in retail channels. With expectations that SC2 would enjoy a second wind in sales at the beginning of August now thoroughly crushed, some are cautiously predicting SC2 will turn out to be Blizzard's black sheep.
One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one."
Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues,
EDITED with sources:
한국경제
다음증권
더게임스
|
In my opinion, it'll take a bit longer. We need to be patient. Once OSLs etc start swapping, things will change.
|
junk account?
industry experts  though being more culturally tied to BW than anywhere else, it makes sense that they'd be resistant to change
and they didn't add they asia numbers because they couldn't, at least in korea players either use timecards or get it with wow subscription
|
|
|
On August 04 2010 13:45 Qwerty. wrote:
junk account?
probably.
how about some sources for your claims.
|
source please, and time will tell.
|
Can you link to your source for this info? Just curious to read the actual article.
|
Even Broodwar took quite some time to be where it's currently at, but I guess they're comparing SC2's popularity level to the rest of world.
|
United States47024 Posts
I love how many times the term "industry experts" is used without once referencing a name or source.
|
On August 04 2010 13:44 Wolf wrote:
In my opinion, it'll take a bit longer. We need to be patient. Once OSLs etc start swapping, things will change.
Thats the main thing. SC2 taking off was always going to require the death of BW. Why bother play the new game when there is still a bunch of money to be made in the old one?
|
His name is Junk account.... troll I think?
|
Yeah would like to see sources. But I like how you say "before people realize what a bad game it really is." Its actually a good game have you even played it?
|
Would be nice if you could post sources.
But even if it's true, I wouldn't read too much into it. Right now we're coming up on the Proleague Grand Finals in SC:BW, which is bound to generate a lot of excitement and keep most SC fans interested in watching/playing BW at least for another week.
Although I will say that Blizzard's little war with KeSPA was not good for publicity.
|
You need to take into account that one day broodwar will be gone in some way. So i think when this happens there will be, may name it, kind of a 2nd release.
|
On August 04 2010 13:45 Qwerty. wrote:junk account? industry experts
You made the post before I could haha. I think the account name was overkill, it *almost* could have worked.
|
Funny stuff. Gave me a laugh.
Edit - All his posts are about SC2 being horrible and failing. Someone just ban this guy please.
|
Also if you look at this guy's posts most of them are how sc2 is going to fail and be like the WC3 in korea lol. Wouldn't really take anything this guy says seriously imho.
|
I want to hear from IdrA/Tasteless/Artosis, they could tell us what it's like there.
|
Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is.
Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk.
And I second (third?) the request for sources. Obviously SC2 isn't doing amazing in Korea, but it's hardly a failure. The real potential is in the e-sports field...where things seem to be going along fairly well, considering it's been less than a week since launch.
Time will tell. Premature declarations of failure are stupid.
|
On August 04 2010 13:50 blade55555 wrote:
Also if you look at this guy's posts most of them are how sc2 is going to fail and be like the WC3 in korea lol. Wouldn't really take anything this guy says seriously imho.
maybe it's an alt of Misrah's lol
|
United States33360 Posts
It's all valid stuff, OP is just too lazy to link 15 articles.
On August 04 2010 09:46 Waxangel wrote:
Very disappointing PC Bang usage numbers for first week of release in Korea, but I've found it hard to find information about what kind of installation rate SC II has in PC Bangs in general right now. If PC Bang owners are truly opposed to the pricing policy, I suppose it's possible that they could continue to stifle the popularity of SC II at their establishments.
Blizzard hasn't released any numbers regarding unlimited use licenses yet (essentially the digital download for NA and EU), which I suppose they'll release at the end of the current Open Beta (which is practically a 1 month free trial for everyone in Korea).
What I'm really interested right now is accurate Battle.net user stats for SC II in Korea, but according to what I read the current B.net measurement system is very buggy and inaccurate. Once that's sorted out and we can see how many people are logged into SC II at peak hours, I think we'll have a decent picture of how well SC II is doing in Kor.
|
On August 04 2010 13:50 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I want to hear from IdrA/Tasteless/Artosis, they could tell us what it's like there.
So you want to hear from the guys who's career depends on the success of this game? What do you think they'll tell you?
|
To be honest, it really doesn't bother me, for now i'm enjoying the hell out of SC2, and i still love watching pro BW from Korea, so it's all good for me. If they do decide to switch to SC2 in the future, that's great!
|
On August 04 2010 13:52 grobo wrote:
To be honest, it really doesn't bother me, for now i'm enjoying the hell out of SC2, and i still love watching pro BW from Korea, so it's all good for me. If they do decide to switch to SC2 in the future, that's great!
yea, i'm fine with esports succeeding anywhere, korea doesn't have to be the epicenter of starcraft
|
Don't hear Moon and his enormous salary go around complaining about how WC3 failed in korea.
|
i hope this info isnt true, because to be honest starcraft 2 is a much better game than the the original. just overall its more polished and ah nevermind just read pretty much any review, but thats beside the point. i would be surprised if the koreans didnt want to see how the story played out. i understand i the pros dont want to make the switch but its freaking STARCRAFT 2!
|
thanks for the information. Its sad. but really, the game isnt that good of a game.. like WC3 in space. No feeling and no visual clearity. oh well, ill get on with my life now.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 13:51 Waxangel wrote:It's all valid stuff, OP is just too lazy to link 15 articles. Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 09:46 Waxangel wrote:
Very disappointing PC Bang usage numbers for first week of release in Korea, but I've found it hard to find information about what kind of installation rate SC II has in PC Bangs in general right now. If PC Bang owners are truly opposed to the pricing policy, I suppose it's possible that they could continue to stifle the popularity of SC II at their establishments.
Blizzard hasn't released any numbers regarding unlimited use licenses yet (essentially the digital download for NA and EU), which I suppose they'll release at the end of the current Open Beta (which is practically a 1 month free trial for everyone in Korea).
What I'm really interested right now is accurate Battle.net user stats for SC II in Korea, but according to what I read the current B.net measurement system is very buggy and inaccurate. Once that's sorted out and we can see how many people are logged into SC II at peak hours, I think we'll have a decent picture of how well SC II is doing in Kor.
Fair enough, though I think the OP could have tried using a far less incendiary tone when discussing the game in the SC2 forums. The tone seems like he's specifically trying to pick a fight by saying how "bad" Starcraft 2 is.
I'm sort of interested in the last quote in the OP, seeing as I think it's unlikely that an "industry expert" who is in a position to address the marketing side of SC2 would also be informed enough to say with certainty that SC2 is not as good as SC1.
|
On August 04 2010 13:55 OneFierceZealot wrote:
i hope this info isnt true, because to be honest starcraft 2 is a much better game than the the original. just overall its more polished and ah nevermind just read pretty much any review, but thats beside the point. i would be surprised if the koreans didnt want to see how the story played out. i understand i the pros dont want to make the switch but its freaking STARCRAFT 2!
Game reviewers know best!!!
|
To be honest, it really doesn't bother me, for now i'm enjoying the hell out of SC2, and i still love watching pro BW from Korea, so it's all good for me. If they do decide to switch to SC2 in the future, that's great!
Yeah, it really doesn't bother me either. SC2 is awesome, but the BW scene is fun too. SC2 is already an e-sport, and there will be Korean tournaments even if it's not the biggest thing ever there. It's for the best that it does well there...but that doesn't necessarily mean being the Second Coming of SC1.
And anyway, it's hard to gauge just how popular it is with the whole "open beta" thing now where everyone can play it at home.
But Blizzard should change the PC bang pricing ASAP. That should help a lot with the Internet Cafe numbers.
|
this guy pretends like he knows what he's talking about but he doesn't. Korea and taiwan have the free open beta going on so thats y they dont include them. Mr conspiracy theory lol but the game is pretty terrible atm for casuals
|
The game is good, I just really think starcraft is too hard for most people. I mean, look at the sales for MW2 and their ridiculous mappacks. Simple seems to be what sells and starcraft isn't that.
|
It's odd that it hasn't performed better, perhaps there are hardware issues we aren't aware of.
Most people in the USA are just picking it up for custom maps and the single player, and will only try ladder a few times. I am surprised this is not happening in Korea.
Regardless of how the ladder/competition stacks up to BW it's still a great game.
|
On August 04 2010 13:55 OneFierceZealot wrote:
i hope this info isnt true, because to be honest starcraft 2 is a much better game than the the original. just overall its more polished and ah nevermind just read pretty much any review, but thats beside the point. i would be surprised if the koreans didnt want to see how the story played out. i understand i the pros dont want to make the switch but its freaking STARCRAFT 2!
It doesn't exactly work that way there. When a game has become ingrained deeply into the national conscious as it has there--which is unique for a game in any part of the world--it's a lot more difficult to push it aside for what's being touted as the next big thing. Imagine Baseball II coming to the US...it wouldn't happen. Any other sequel in any other situation would be accepted as cool, exciting, and with Starcraft 2's quality, the biggest esport on the block. But with BW's fame and 12-year standing in korea, it's like an immobile rock. It's not A game, it's THE game. Western BW was already fading, slowly but surely.
|
I'd rather have a fail in Korea than fail in everything else. Besides, we enjoy it, so who cares?
|
hahaha this is just so much fun
dont know if any of u were around in 1998 but.....oh well
dont know what u guys expect, sc2 release, next day 12 pro teams and televised games nonstop with idra in a spacesuit?
|
people will always cling to that one thing that has been there and they loved. The republic of korea, along with millions elsewhere, still love their older, yet sometimes better, Starcraft Brood War. Once things begin to change, just as they did for users on Battle Net 1.0 on the 27th of July, the only ones left will be the most loyal, refusing to leave their game. Many will switch over, but many will stay. It will happen, but it may take a few months or so. I would give it until Christmas, then there will be a change.
|
On August 04 2010 14:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
hahaha this is just so much fun
dont know if any of u were around in 1998 but.....oh well
dont know what u guys expect, sc2 release, next day 12 pro teams and televised games nonstop with idra in a spacesuit?
Apparently they do. SC2 is going great so far. I don't know what some people are seeing.
|
On August 04 2010 14:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
hahaha this is just so much fun
dont know if any of u were around in 1998 but.....oh well
dont know what u guys expect, sc2 release, next day 12 pro teams and televised games nonstop with idra in a spacesuit?
starcraft in 1998 in korea was an unknown entity
in 2010, the series is not.
|
On August 04 2010 13:55 Sfydjklm wrote:
Don't hear Moon and his enormous salary go around complaining about how WC3 failed in korea.
haha nice! I can't even tell why watching WC3 is even good compared to BW and moon makes the $$$$
|
I wouldn't expect broodwar or starcraft 2 to be a large percentage of what people play in internet cafes. All the korean nerds are busy grinding away on maple story or whatever.
|
lol i love how every post this guy has made is completely dogging sc2, also as everyone elce has said cite a source
|
no source, 12 post account, this means that he is just making this up to sound interesting. Maybe the claims are true, maybe not, but without a source, it's pointless to start this kind of thread.
I would love to see the source of those so called gaming industry experts.
Plus the game is 1 week old can't see how in 1 week he can beat all the established records that were made through a hole life cycle of the top sales games. Even though in korea it's not a success isn't relevant, Counter-Strike and Warcraft 3 aren't popular in korea and guess what, they are among the greatest esport games around.
Korea is the reference in term of BroodWar, but Sc2 is a new game, not broodwar, and korea is irrelevent concerning the success or the fail of SC2. SC2 is doing great in europe and america (in fact it have already broken the BW sales record in UK, a record of 12 years broken in 5 days). The scene is moving fast, cologne is hosting a 15k tournement, ESL and MLG are investing a lot into SC2 and the EU/US community is loving the game, that's what's important.
As for korea, it's their loss, they are missing a great game and maybe they will move to it later.
|
I am really confused about the statements on retail channels, didn't Blizzard stated that in Korea, SC2 are distributed through the web store ONLY?
|
Ugh. i feel a downward spiral coming on.
now that Activision/Blizzard is milking their products so heavily (leaving so much by the wayside to do so) i wouldnt be surprised if this trend continued
|
|
|
love how spastics are still comparing sc2 as a whole to the current state of brood war.
sc2 is so far ahead of what the original starcraft was when it was released its not funny.
|
Give the game some time.
It's all about building a solid base and longevity. You cannot say whether it's been a success or failure until at least one year.
|
even if it's the case, I will not stop having fun from the game because it is not liked in another country...
|
Thats actually pretty shocking for me,hope its just preliminary statistics.After all it took some time for the original to take flight in Korea,still i expected it to be somewhat of a national holiday.
Thing is while im pleased with sc2s single and multiplayer,you havent seen sc until you see Koreans playing it,its just something else entirely.I was hoping the two could exist in the e-sport scene together.Especially since people have proven sc2 has the "uh-ah" factor brood war had.Thats sad news indeed and it would definitely hurt its longevity.
|
|
|
On August 04 2010 14:01 Itsarabbit wrote:
I'd rather have a fail in Korea than fail in everything else. Besides, we enjoy it, so who cares?
It has not failed in korea at all /shrug he is just being a bitch and saying it has off number that mean nothing and cause he does not want BW to die off. SC2 has just come out only been a few and they sold 1.8 million copies in north america and speculated #'s of 3-4 million in korea but those will not be know till blizzard realse them do to them all being digtal DL's.
I really don't see now SC2 has failed or how it will fail lol
|
Updated original post with sources. Sorry for the Korean but those of you who can read can vouch for veracity. Note, the links are not some blog post, they're from reputable establishments.
|
or maybe Blizzard didnt release the numbers because they are letting Korean WOW players have SC2 for free, thus smashing the # of sales?
also i wouldnt believe that the #'s are that low, such bs.
get this troll outta here.
User was warned for this post
|
On August 04 2010 14:17 k!llua wrote:
love how spastics are still comparing sc2 as a whole to the current state of brood war.
sc2 is so far ahead of what the original starcraft was when it was released its not funny.
But it is so far behind the original starcraft has become, thanks to the community
|
Korea doesn't matter anymore. If SC2 can replace Warcraft III in China and worldwide it'll have done it's job.
|
They've sold 1.5 million copies in the first 2 days. SC2 isn't a "bad" game. Just because South Korea refuses to accept a newer, funner, more graphically appealing version of the game they've grown so attached to (which I highly doubt assuming that Blizzard has spent so much time and commitment make SC2 available in SK) doesn't mean every OTHER country is going to have the same impression, even if they are the central e-sports scene.
|
A mod should edit into the OP that his sources are legit.
|
You can't say something has failed after 1 week, maybe 1 year and there is little movement you can but not one week.
|
On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. .
I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2.
|
On August 04 2010 14:30 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:17 k!llua wrote:
love how spastics are still comparing sc2 as a whole to the current state of brood war.
sc2 is so far ahead of what the original starcraft was when it was released its not funny. But it is so far behind the original starcraft has become, thanks to the community
become?
Is this game on market for 6 years? or was it 1 week?
|
Agree with most people about the rubbish post from a waste of time account. To stumble onto TL one day and inform us all of this wise knowledge is a waste of time. Measure of a games success is in it's first week? What was Brood War's first week like? Not a sentence in the post that isn't the ramblings of someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about.
|
On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2.
as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised.
|
Just a question did korea automatically take in the original starcraft immediatly, i doubt it,I'm just wondering if it took to BW or what to get them interested but I highly doubt it was automatically there 'national sport' so to speak.
These so called 'experts' really need to put down there name and qualifications because anyone could be declared a profesional or expert, I tend to distrust when an article says industry experts so many places do with false numbers and facts, aswell it says it was run in an internet cafe, no sure if that makes for solid numbers but oh well this guy is so obviously opposed to SC2 for some reason which is strange
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2.
How ambiguous and uninformative.
|
On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised.
Right...
People like you are crazy. No one can objectively say that SC2 is a bad game. Seriously.
|
and even if it would fail in asia. In europe and US it booms with finally some Real-TV broadcasts and so much pricemoney and everything. So Blizzard has definatly done something right here.
|
On August 04 2010 14:37 Tone_ wrote:
Agree with most people about the rubbish post from a waste of time account. To stumble onto TL one day and inform us all of this wise knowledge is a waste of time. Measure of a games success is in it's first week? What was Brood War's first week like? Not a sentence in the post that isn't the ramblings of someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about.
I'm sick of people saying "it took 11 years for bw to develop" and "you think bw sold 1.8 million copies in its first week?" - you do realize this is the sequel to that game. This is the game that was heavily marketed, heavily hyped, been in open to the community development for 3 years, and was built with the intention of tournament, e-sports, and competitive play. This game -allegedly- took all the great things from bw so that it wouldn't HAVE to take 11 years to get to the point where BW was. Unfortunately Blizzard went overboard in appealing to people who dont know how to play RTS, and in their features for Bnet 2.0 to the point where they not only hurt the competetive scene, but their sales figures as well - a lose/lose situation for them(when they thought they would make more money from it).
|
It's such a weird phenomenon, how some people want BW to die, others want SC2 to die, just so they don't have to doubt that the game they choose to play is the "correct" one.
On August 04 2010 14:22 -Desu- wrote:
even if it's the case, I will not stop having fun from the game because it is not liked in another country...
Yes, this is the mentality everybody should adopt in my opinion, about both BW and SC2!
|
All I see coming from this is blizzard putting more pressure on shutting down or getting proceeds from the professional sc1 scene.
That said, you couldn't expect everyone to just jump ship straight away. Human beings have this sense of attachment to things that work for them, and simply can not bebothered upgrading. (look at win XP and win 7, 7 is a far superior OS yet more people still use XP.)
|
Need to hear from the source regarding what's really going on.
|
On August 04 2010 14:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. How ambiguous and uninformative.
Watch
Mar 18, 2010 SC2 Reactions - SKT1
at http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s01
T1 coach calls the game "too simple".
|
OP:
Play whichever game you like more and be quiet, imo
User was warned for this post
|
SC2 will never be a popular progaming game.
|
On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised.
It was a tough choice, but you sir get the award for worst post on this thread.
Do you even know what an Alpha build is?
|
10387 Posts
wow reading this thread a lot of butt-hurt and angry users that obviously only registered because of SC2. This shouldn't have been a surprise, seeing as there was an anti-Blizzard sentiment going on with all their shenanigans (i.e. the negotiations [or lack of], breaking ad laws, pissing off the PC Bangs).
Anyways, as long as it doesn't touch my BW pro scene I'm fine..
On August 04 2010 14:47 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised. It was a tough choice, but you sir get the award for worst post on this thread. Do you even know what an Alpha build is?
I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist, but I think you get that award instead for being stupid enough to even think he was using alpha in that context.
|
On August 04 2010 14:47 ArvickHero wrote:
wow reading this thread a lot of butt-hurt and angry users that obviously only registered because of SC2. This shouldn't have been a surprise, seeing as there was an anti-Blizzard sentiment going on with all their shenanigans (i.e. the negotiations [or lack of], breaking ad laws, pissing off the PC Bangs).
Anyways, as long as it doesn't touch my BW pro scene I'm fine..
Amen.
|
I like SC2, but it doesn't require as much skill as the former game.
|
these stats only cover in Korea right?
|
Both should thrive; honestly life would be much easier if Blizzard titled it not as Starcraft 2 but Space Race Wars.
|
So just because every person and their grandma didn't buy SC2 in South Korea the game is horrible, a POS, and will never be good at all. Cool.
|
Troll is trolling.
User was warned for this post
|
16982 Posts
On August 04 2010 14:49 wholegrain wrote:
I like SC2, but it doesn't require as much skill as the former game.
I would disagree completely. SC2 requires some different types of skills, and the game's only been out for a very short period of time. I think there's a lot of room for SC2 to grow.
|
On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%. The playtime metric is used to ascertain game popularity. Released on the 27th last month, SC2 posted a dismal 20th in internet cafe playtime but was expected to climb much higher on the weekend, with hopes that old-time starcraft fans would feel nostalgic and rush out to play SC2. But, on the 31st of last month, the first saturday after release, playtime was at a meager 2.49% (12th). Although the numbers continued to rally to peak at 2.6%, it failed to reach a critical level. This is in stark contrast with SC1, which kept its popularity, hanging on to the 6th spot. Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not. Taking into account the huge advertisement campaign and the success of the previous installment, the results were somewhat dissappointing. To add further concern, this period coincided with school holidays, a period considered the one of the golden peaks of gaming. So the question remains, where has all the interest gone? But, what about outright sales you ask? Surely, sales must be going through the roof since SC2 is such a great game. Unfortunately, SC2 is not even in the top10 games sold in korea. Dissappointingly, Blizzard's new game Starcraft 2 is struggling even in retail channels. With expectations that SC2 would enjoy a second wind in sales at the beginning of August now thoroughly crushed, some are cautiously predicting SC2 will turn out to be Blizzard's black sheep. One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one." Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues, EDITED with sources: 한국경제다음증권더게임스
Brood War is massive in Korea. Anyone who thought the change would come quickly is unbelievably foolish. Korea will resist the change for a long time because it's simply a radical change that isn't easy. Doesn't matter what the game was, it would be true with any two games.
|
Let's just say apm makes less difference in SC2.
|
I definitely agree that Blizzard tried to take their incredibly successful WoW scheme (attractive for casual/non-RTS gamers, accessible and easier to learn and use, emphasis on social aspects), and has not found the same level of compatibility with SC2. It's interesting to note that most of SC2's bugs or heavy technical problems are on the user-interface end (i.e. menu screens overheating graphics cards, issues logging on, NO LAN WTF, etc.), but the gameplay is very solid.
As for gauging the success in Korea... This may sound racist, but from my experience, Korea and Koreans have a fairly strong... conformist, conventional, follow-the-leader sheep mentality. Take a look at the Korean Pop Music industry and you'll see exactly what I mean. If the industry leaders, established eSports leagues, and famous progamers do not embrace SC2, then it will be a while before the Korean populace will move towards SC2.
To those people who say "SC2 is prettier and more sophisticated than SC1, people will inevitably switch to it", I believe Street Fighter 3 and Super Smash Bros Brawl prove otherwise; both were hyped sequels pre-release which were deemed less competitive post-release, and the competitive scene went back to the earlier game, SF2 and Melee.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 14:50 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:49 wholegrain wrote:
I like SC2, but it doesn't require as much skill as the former game. I would disagree completely. SC2 requires some different types of skills, and the game's only been out for a very short period of time. I think there's a lot of room for SC2 to grow.
That skill being..? If it's the skill of making your own builds and innovating, you know that BW requires that skill too. It's just a lot more apparent than BW solely because a new game.. once the standard builds set in, it'll just be BW with a different set of rules/timings and lower mechanical skill requirements.
btw referring to progamers making fun of SC2, I believe Violet makes fun of it in Old Boy.
|
Koreans are allowed to use their WoW subscriptions to get auto-access to SC2 without buying it.
/thread
|
lol at the hatewagon against the OP in this thread. he made an informative and interesting OP on how the game wasn't gaining popularity in korea. posts likeOn August 04 2010 14:46 Three wrote:
OP:
Play whichever game you like more and be quiet, imo are retarded. how about you play whichever game you like and stop posting? he summarized numerous articles and gave an analysis of the game's current situation in korea. for what reason should he be quiet?
On August 04 2010 14:39 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised. Right... People like you are crazy. No one can objectively say that SC2 is a bad game. Seriously. they can. as a mater of fact, no one can objectively say that SC2 is a great game. many of my friends who were casual players of BW (basically never touched iccup and don't know a single build order or timing) expressed great disappointment in the campaign. the story was absolutely trash and the nostalgia factor (which these friends were looking forward to the most) was nonexistant outside of + Show Spoiler [possible spoiler?] +raynor, mengsk, zeratul, and maybe the artanis cameo.
sure the OP may have a subpar posting history but by no means is this a useless thread and the random bashing is unwarranted. lol i bet not a single one of you demanding a source actually cared whether there was a source or are even able to read the source the OP posted. bandwagon more please.
|
On August 04 2010 14:47 ArvickHero wrote:wow reading this thread a lot of butt-hurt and angry users that obviously only registered because of SC2. This shouldn't have been a surprise, seeing as there was an anti-Blizzard sentiment going on with all their shenanigans (i.e. the negotiations [or lack of], breaking ad laws, pissing off the PC Bangs). Anyways, as long as it doesn't touch my BW pro scene I'm fine.. Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:47 junemermaid wrote:On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised. It was a tough choice, but you sir get the award for worst post on this thread. Do you even know what an Alpha build is? I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist, but I think you get that award instead for being stupid enough to even think he was using alpha in that context.
Pray tell, how was he using it then?
|
On August 04 2010 14:54 onionchowder wrote:
I definitely agree that Blizzard tried to take their incredibly successful WoW scheme (attractive for casual/non-RTS gamers, accessible and easier to learn and use, emphasis on social aspects), and has not found the same level of compatibility with SC2. It's interesting to note that most of SC2's bugs or heavy technical problems are on the user-interface end (i.e. menu screens overheating graphics cards, issues logging on, NO LAN WTF, etc.), but the gameplay is very solid.
As for gauging the success in Korea... This may sound racist, but from my experience, Korea and Koreans have a fairly strong... conformist, conventional, follow-the-leader sheep mentality. Take a look at the Korean Pop Music industry and you'll see exactly what I mean. If the industry leaders, established eSports leagues, and famous progamers do not embrace SC2, then it will be a while before the Korean populace will move towards SC2.
To those people who say "SC2 is prettier and more sophisticated than SC1, people will inevitably switch to it", I believe Street Fighter 3 and Super Smash Bros Brawl prove otherwise; both were hyped sequels pre-release which were deemed less competitive post-release, and the competitive scene went back to the earlier game, SF2 and Melee.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you serious? Why would conformism have anything to do with sale figures? You certainly made a fool of yourself right there.
|
On August 04 2010 14:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%. The playtime metric is used to ascertain game popularity. Released on the 27th last month, SC2 posted a dismal 20th in internet cafe playtime but was expected to climb much higher on the weekend, with hopes that old-time starcraft fans would feel nostalgic and rush out to play SC2. But, on the 31st of last month, the first saturday after release, playtime was at a meager 2.49% (12th). Although the numbers continued to rally to peak at 2.6%, it failed to reach a critical level. This is in stark contrast with SC1, which kept its popularity, hanging on to the 6th spot. Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not. Taking into account the huge advertisement campaign and the success of the previous installment, the results were somewhat dissappointing. To add further concern, this period coincided with school holidays, a period considered the one of the golden peaks of gaming. So the question remains, where has all the interest gone? But, what about outright sales you ask? Surely, sales must be going through the roof since SC2 is such a great game. Unfortunately, SC2 is not even in the top10 games sold in korea. Dissappointingly, Blizzard's new game Starcraft 2 is struggling even in retail channels. With expectations that SC2 would enjoy a second wind in sales at the beginning of August now thoroughly crushed, some are cautiously predicting SC2 will turn out to be Blizzard's black sheep. One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one." Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues, EDITED with sources: 한국경제다음증권더게임스 Brood War is massive in Korea. Anyone who thought the change would come quickly is unbelievably foolish. Korea will resist the change for a long time because it's simply a radical change that isn't easy. Doesn't matter what the game was, it would be true with any two games. brood war is also massive among the veteran population of TeamLiquid. i'd say the "radical" change came rather quick, wouldn't you. despite the outrage and backlash TL exhibited against blizzard/activision, the members were still curious as what happened in the story and were willing to shell out $60 to get the game. it wouldn't have been too far a stretch to extrapolate what happened in TL to the rest of korea but obviously something went very very wrong.
|
I feel like your making assumptions based entirely on critics who make a living off of finding what is wrong with a game. And the basis to this thread is the opinion that sc2 is a terrible game, and it's represented by sales numbers which aren't even bad. Though I respect your opinions and the fact you didn't just QQ, I cannot disagree with you more. I think this game has a lot of potential. In the gaming market in the months to come, and as far as esports goes, Starcraft Broodwar was a means of entertainment. It took time and support before it erupted into the sport it is today. I think Starcraft 2 still has a lot of balance work that needs to be done, and I think only time will tell whether Starcraft2 becomes a top esport. You can't assume anything at this point.
|
Wow.
Successful troll is successful. Seems like this guy is really stirring the pot with a shitty stick.
User was warned for this post
|
In my opinion, SC2 is a better game for casual gamers, but is a worse game for professionals and hardcore gamers. I doubt that there will be a televised league of SC2. The game is simply boring to watch.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 14:58 redtooth wrote:
brood war is also massive among the veteran population of TeamLiquid. i'd say the "radical" change came rather quick, wouldn't you. despite the outrage and backlash TL exhibited against blizzard/activision, the members were still curious as what happened in the story and were willing to shell out $60 to get the game. it wouldn't have been too far a stretch to extrapolate what happened in TL to the rest of korea but obviously something went very very wrong.
How is 2-3 years of Blizzcon showings and 6 months of beta "rather quick"?
I'm pretty sure a larger portion of Korean gamers are going into SC2 blind than veteran TLers, most of whom have at least tried the beta for some period of time, and have been closely monitoring the game's development.
|
I don't understand this:
1) Why does the PC bang have any bearing of the game since every Korean already is playing SCII for free and has been estimated by several gaming websites, like kotaku, IGN, Teamliquid that the reason they cannot estimate amount of copys of SCII being played in in korea is because there are too many users (+2 million) that it will take longer time before a reliable estimate can be made. WHY PLAY at PC bang if you already have it at home for free?
2) weren't there a problem with a monthly fee for the PC bangs so they were forced to pull off SCII from their computers and decided to ban it?
|
On August 04 2010 14:55 redtooth wrote:
the random bashing is unwarranted.
I see what you are saying, people are using the thread to drop ambiguous mini-posts about their dislike for one game or the other. I would say that it is inevitable to have that happen to most threads of this type...
However this thread was posted in the SC2 forum, so I guess I wonder why so many BW players took such a big detour just to shit-talk SC2.
|
|
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 14:56 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:47 ArvickHero wrote:wow reading this thread a lot of butt-hurt and angry users that obviously only registered because of SC2. This shouldn't have been a surprise, seeing as there was an anti-Blizzard sentiment going on with all their shenanigans (i.e. the negotiations [or lack of], breaking ad laws, pissing off the PC Bangs). Anyways, as long as it doesn't touch my BW pro scene I'm fine.. On August 04 2010 14:47 junemermaid wrote:On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised. It was a tough choice, but you sir get the award for worst post on this thread. Do you even know what an Alpha build is? I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist, but I think you get that award instead for being stupid enough to even think he was using alpha in that context. Pray tell, how was he using it then?
Think of alpha as the word fucking in this case, and maybe it'll make sense to you.
On August 04 2010 14:59 Midj wrote:
Wow.
Successful troll is successful. Seems like this guy is really stirring the pot with a shitty stick.
If by troll = compiling some statistical facts, then yes he was successful. I feel as if I should hate SC2 for users like you :\
|
Well it's not an easy sell with the success of broodwar and about every clan page linking the top 10 reasons you shouldn't buy. Plus the game is $60 versus $20 for all sc1. It'll take time.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:05 ArvickHero wrote:
If by troll = compiling some statistical facts, then yes he was successful. I feel as if I should hate SC2 for users like you :\
To be fair, the tone with which the OP approached the statistics made his stance on SC2 fairly obvious. If he wasn't trying to stir the pot, his comment about realizing what a bad game SC2 is has no place in what really only needs to be a translation/summary post. It would be like sneaking an "SKT1 is a bad team" into a PL interview thread. It doesn't add to the content or purpose of the post, and only serves to distract people from legitimate discussion.
|
I think if you go so far as to advertise on a fucking airplane, you'd expect the initial sales to be BIG, and not expect a slow trickle some time after release, eh?
There's nothing to apologize for (ya apologizers): SC2 is alright, it's just not as good as SC. It's gonna be interesting to see what they do to patch out the "not-good-enough-ness."
|
On August 04 2010 14:12 Primadog wrote:
I am really confused about the statements on retail channels, didn't Blizzard stated that in Korea, SC2 are distributed through the web store ONLY?
Just did some research, my memory serves me correctly:
Properly regarding StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, the game will be available on its release date for Digital Download only. Yes, no physical box of the game will be available, although Blizzard did assure a limited collectors edition of the game will find its way to Korea as well sometime in the future.
http://starcraft.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korean-event-aftermaths-beta-phase-2-and-lan-play/
Where the hell did the OP get its sales numbers? Or is he really saying that the limited edition collectors box sales alone ranked on the korean sales chart? If so, I'd say starcraft is doing GREAT!! in korea.
I also checked all three references that OP cited, which all traces its origins to one http://thegames.co.kr website, which has an Alexa ranking of 8,943,617. Take that information as you see it.
|
First, every WOW Player has free access to SC2 in Korea. Second, arent the koreans getting a "free open beta" at the moment? Would at least somewhat explain the sales.
|
well if the op is true then i'm not that surprised tbh
i mean it's replacing something nostalgic and culturally accepted with something that just came out. people are stubborn and don't want to replace something they love that much. not saying sc2 is better then brood war in any means.
|
EDIT: Okay This is all Bullshit, nothing OP has stated makes any sense, nor is it logical. His sources aren't reliable either. I'm going to consider this a big Troll thread for now on.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:05 ArvickHero wrote:
If by troll = compiling some statistical facts, then yes he was successful. I feel as if I should hate SC2 for users like you :\ To be fair, the tone with which the OP approached the statistics made his stance on SC2 fairly obvious. If he wasn't trying to stir the pot, his comment about realizing what a bad game SC2 is has no place in what really only needs to be a translation/summary post. It would be like sneaking an "SKT1 is a bad team" into a PL interview thread.
eh, true enough, I feel as if a mod should go ahead and edit out the inflammatory comments in the OP. Still, many of these posts are making me cringe very badly.
Edit: like the one above mine, a great example of shitty posting. I especially enjoy how he says the sources aren't reliable when he can't even probably read fucking Korean.
|
I'll say why I like Starcraft2.
The reason I like it, is because I'm one of the guys that played it online and sucked. Played all through the Terran campaign and stopped there. The guy that was horrible at doing the standard timing pushes and learning all these tactics and strategies that had 11 years of time to be commonplace among every match. I would watch pro matches and keep up with teams and stuff because I understood how the game basically worked but wasn't able to play it.
I watched Day9's netcast basically everytime I could during the beta and other people's streams of the beta and payed very close attention to what they were doing and what they were talking about with different strats and stuff and what works against things and what doesn't.
Now that Starcraft 2 is out, I don't feel like I'm so far behind. When I completed the campaign, (Which I loved because it felt to me that you were more 'Involved' I guess you could say) I downloaded YABOT and went to TL and Liquipedia to learn some builds for terran. I practiced them and practiced until I stoppped getting roflstomped by medium AI and could actually win handily. I played my placement matches and ended up in Gold. Now I'm somewhere like 12th in my division (Was 8th but got baneling busted 3 times in a row :[ ) and I feel great!
I think it's better for players to 'hop in' and start playing. I'm not saying it's too noob friendly or anything and there is nothing to learn, I average 52 APM most of the time. I have to practice. But I am saying that I feel like it's a new leaf turned over, that I can play this game comfortably now because all the builds and what is 'Standard' is evolving still.
Eventually Starcraft 2 will get big. I'm not saying it's going to kill BW by any means, and I'm not saying that you have to practice with Koreans everyday to be able to play it.
It's going to take time. Anyone who thinks that it will/should have/is going to/ or has surpassed BW, or is going to require more skill or better micro/macro is expecting too much.
|
I think this, if it is accurate, has everything to do with the kespa/blizzard thing and the fact that the only progamers playing SC2 right now are retired from the mainstream. The S-Class pro's will get their hands on the game soon enough and when it's on TV it will take off.
Plus the fact that koreans in general (i am one) are very resistant to change and until it is 'accepted' fully, there will be a reluctance to go from what you do know to what you don't know. It's just a little different mechanic than the rest of the western world goes by. I think spreading negative press though, is probably bad for the esport in general and i would hope that people don't do it just to get some attention.
|
On August 04 2010 15:04 CScythe wrote:I see what you are saying, people are using the thread to drop ambiguous mini-posts about their dislike for one game or the other. I would say that it is inevitable to have that happen to most threads of this type... However this thread was posted in the SC2 forum, so I guess I wonder why so many BW players took such a big detour just to shit-talk SC2.
The thread was posted in the Starcraft 2 section because it is about how well Starcraft 2 is doing in Korea. The OP only mentions Brood War once in a comparison of how popular it is in pc bangs.
Some people (such as myself) find the information interesting because it is hard to find unless you can understand the Korean/Chinese news sites that report these stories. Thank you to the OP for posting the news.
There are far to many people angrily trying to defend Starcraft 2. Why does it matter so much that you have to call people "trolls" or that they are "shit-talking" because they simply have a different opinion to you?
In my opinion SC2 is okay but not great. The OP reports that SC2 isn't well received in Korea and I can understand why after all the drama Blizzard caused prior to it's release and fact the game isn't as fantastic as people had hoped.
|
On August 04 2010 15:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:58 redtooth wrote:
brood war is also massive among the veteran population of TeamLiquid. i'd say the "radical" change came rather quick, wouldn't you. despite the outrage and backlash TL exhibited against blizzard/activision, the members were still curious as what happened in the story and were willing to shell out $60 to get the game. it wouldn't have been too far a stretch to extrapolate what happened in TL to the rest of korea but obviously something went very very wrong. How is 2-3 years of Blizzcon showings and 6 months of beta "rather quick"? I'm pretty sure a larger portion of Korean gamers are going into SC2 blind than veteran TLers, most of whom have at least tried the beta for some period of time, and have been closely monitoring the game's development. korea didn't have beta? koreans didn't have access to Blizzcon? didn't they also have a huge fucking korean promotional airplane with tycus on it? werent there youtube videos of flash/bisu/jaedong etc all playing sc2?
if you're implying that koreans didn't follow sc2... you're just flat out wrong. remember all the people trying to figure out why matchup/racial statistic in the asian server were so different from NA/Europe's? or the fact that while TL had to fly halfway around to world to Blizzcon in order to play, many koreans were able to access it in their home city? what makes you think that "korean gamers are going into SC2 blind"? they do have access to the fucking internet and blizzard has a huge interest in what koreans have to say. half of the information we got were through translations of korean articles. good job making random assumptions.
|
On August 04 2010 14:22 -Desu- wrote:
even if it's the case, I will not stop having fun from the game because it is not liked in another country...
I agree completely. The game's success lies within what I'm thinking of it...and from the amount of people who've been playing it. I think it's safe to assume that the people here are loving the heck of out this game, I know I am. Success? I think so =)
|
SC1 wasn't an instant hit.
|
All we gotta do is give it time.
|
Koreans are also offered a subscription based pricing model where they can purchase an amount of time to play the game. It makes sense that most players would choose the cheap option first before deciding whether or not they want to buy the game. Plus, some players may not have gaming computers of their own, instead spending a lot of time at an internet cafe.
The playtime figures being stated by the OP aren't very descriptive:
"August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%"
That tells us nothing about the actual amount of playtime of SC2. Does anybody really expect a new strategy game to overtake other massively popular games in Korea? You have to remember that there are quite a lot of gamers in Korea, and they're playing a lot more than just Starcraft. Just because SC2 looks small comparatively does not mean that it hasn't done well so far.
Starcraft fans represent a considerable faction of Korean gamers, but there are probably plenty of gamers who are more interested in other types of games.
I'll be waiting for real numbers out of Korea before I make any judgements. I want to know how much money Blizzard has made from SC2 in Korea.
|
On August 04 2010 15:23 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:04 CScythe wrote:On August 04 2010 14:55 redtooth wrote:
the random bashing is unwarranted. I see what you are saying, people are using the thread to drop ambiguous mini-posts about their dislike for one game or the other. I would say that it is inevitable to have that happen to most threads of this type... However this thread was posted in the SC2 forum, so I guess I wonder why so many BW players took such a big detour just to shit-talk SC2. The thread was posted in the Starcraft 2 section because it is about how well Starcraft 2 is doing in Korea. The OP only mentions Brood War once in a comparison of how popular it is in pc bangs.
I guess what I meant was that I am surprised at the number of BW players posting about BW in a SC2 thread in the SC2 forum. I always felt the games were extremely different, connected only by a very basic style and theme.
I believe SC2 players may be trying to defend the game in this thread because of the title of the thread, defining the game as straight-up "failed" may be too extreme.
|
This kind of blows actually. I thought korea would take to starcraft 2 quickly on name alone. Since they didn't, some company (korean air maybe) needs to look into an OSL2/ large tournament sponsorship to accumulate a fan base.
News post saying similar things if you don't want to believe this op.
edit: To people saying give it time. Obviously it isn't going to hit top game in korea within a week. However, with all the advertisement and with the popularity of its predecessor you would expect it to do better than this.
|
On August 04 2010 15:08 Primadog wrote:I also checked all three references that OP cited, which all traces its origins to one http://thegames.co.kr website, which has an Alexa ranking of 8,943,617. Take that information as you see it. i raise you a Waxangel that says OP is telling the truth.
+ Show Spoiler [quote from 2nd page] +On August 04 2010 13:51 Waxangel wrote:It's all valid stuff, OP is just too lazy to link 15 articles. Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 09:46 Waxangel wrote:
Very disappointing PC Bang usage numbers for first week of release in Korea, but I've found it hard to find information about what kind of installation rate SC II has in PC Bangs in general right now. If PC Bang owners are truly opposed to the pricing policy, I suppose it's possible that they could continue to stifle the popularity of SC II at their establishments.
Blizzard hasn't released any numbers regarding unlimited use licenses yet (essentially the digital download for NA and EU), which I suppose they'll release at the end of the current Open Beta (which is practically a 1 month free trial for everyone in Korea).
What I'm really interested right now is accurate Battle.net user stats for SC II in Korea, but according to what I read the current B.net measurement system is very buggy and inaccurate. Once that's sorted out and we can see how many people are logged into SC II at peak hours, I think we'll have a decent picture of how well SC II is doing in Kor.
|
I figured people would realize that it is a troll based only on the fact that it claims SC2 failed in august... on the 3rd of august?
|
I honestly don't understand why Koreans are not excited about Starcraft 2. This is when I start to blame Broodwar. It needs to die in order for starcraft 2 to be released. Until then starcraft 2 will never be successful in Korea.
|
On August 04 2010 09:46 Waxangel wrote:
Very disappointing PC Bang usage numbers for first week of release in Korea, but I've found it hard to find information about what kind of installation rate SC II has in PC Bangs in general right now. If PC Bang owners are truly opposed to the pricing policy, I suppose it's possible that they could continue to stifle the popularity of SC II at their establishments.
Blizzard hasn't released any numbers regarding unlimited use licenses yet (essentially the digital download for NA and EU), which I suppose they'll release at the end of the current Open Beta (which is practically a 1 month free trial for everyone in Korea).
What I'm really interested right now is accurate Battle.net user stats for SC II in Korea, but according to what I read the current B.net measurement system is very buggy and inaccurate. Once that's sorted out and we can see how many people are logged into SC II at peak hours, I think we'll have a decent picture of how well SC II is doing in Kor.
Finally a post that actually makes sense.
|
The game is out for what - one week? Come on....
EDIT:
On August 04 2010 09:46 Waxangel wrote:
Very disappointing PC Bang usage numbers for first week of release in Korea, but I've found it hard to find information about what kind of installation rate SC II has in PC Bangs in general right now. If PC Bang owners are truly opposed to the pricing policy, I suppose it's possible that they could continue to stifle the popularity of SC II at their establishments.
Blizzard hasn't released any numbers regarding unlimited use licenses yet (essentially the digital download for NA and EU), which I suppose they'll release at the end of the current Open Beta (which is practically a 1 month free trial for everyone in Korea).
What I'm really interested right now is accurate Battle.net user stats for SC II in Korea, but according to what I read the current B.net measurement system is very buggy and inaccurate. Once that's sorted out and we can see how many people are logged into SC II at peak hours, I think we'll have a decent picture of how well SC II is doing in Kor.
That's right... furthermore I would assume that since the Battle.net is optimized for playing and getting achievements on your own account it is perhaps not THE #1 game you want to play when socializing in a PC bang - Mario-Kart like stuff comes in more handy here.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:24 redtooth wrote:
if you're implying that koreans didn't follow sc2... you're just flat out wrong. remember all the people trying to figure out why matchup/racial statistic in the asian server were so different from NA/Europe's? or the fact that while TL had to fly halfway around to world to Blizzcon in order to play, many koreans were able to access it in their home city? what makes you think that "korean gamers are going into SC2 blind"? they do have access to the fucking internet and blizzard has a huge interest in what koreans have to say. half of the information we got were through translations of korean articles. good job making random assumptions.
You're comparing a small hardcore community like TL to the general populace of Korea. While I'm sure TL's sister hardcore communities in Korea followed SC2 even more closely than we do, the average gamer in Korea (who might not even currently play Starcraft, and who would make up the majority of the purchasing population) is probably not watching as keenly as the most zealous TL vets.
|
Like was already mentioned... theres a free open beta going on in Korea!
|
On August 04 2010 15:37 G3nXsiS wrote:
I honestly don't understand why Koreans are not excited about Starcraft 2. This is when I start to blame Broodwar. It needs to die in order for starcraft 2 to be released. Until then starcraft 2 will never be successful in Korea.
Why should Brood War die to make way for Starcraft 2 when Starcraft 2 is currently the inferior game?
I want Starcraft 2 to be better, I really do. As it stands right at this point in time Brood War is better. I hope that Blizzard knows what they are doing and addresses the issues with battle.net, regions, lan and fix some of the bland units/gameplay. Then we will have a worthy replacement.
As others have said, give it time. For now the OP is an accurate reflection of what is happening right now in Korea and lines up with how I feel about the game.
|
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care?
|
well, was it around 2001 when pimpest plays came out? so yeah, took at least 3 years for the game to start having its effect on me. people would expect a shorter timeframe since its a sequel. but trying to compare it to the success that took years and pitting it within a week or two of playtime? prob a bit premature
|
On August 04 2010 15:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:24 redtooth wrote:
if you're implying that koreans didn't follow sc2... you're just flat out wrong. remember all the people trying to figure out why matchup/racial statistic in the asian server were so different from NA/Europe's? or the fact that while TL had to fly halfway around to world to Blizzcon in order to play, many koreans were able to access it in their home city? what makes you think that "korean gamers are going into SC2 blind"? they do have access to the fucking internet and blizzard has a huge interest in what koreans have to say. half of the information we got were through translations of korean articles. good job making random assumptions. You're comparing a small hardcore community like TL to the general populace of Korea. While I'm sure TL's sister hardcore communities in Korea followed SC2 even more closely than we do, the average Starcraft player in Korea (who would make up the majority of the purchasing population--is not watching as keenly as the most zealous TL vets. lol are you implying that the majority of people who purchased SC2 are members of TL? last i checked, TL didn't have >1,000,000 members.
fine let's compare the general populace of Korea to the rest of the world. from the world's ("foreigner's") perspective Korea seems pretty hardcore at SC. yet at the same time, it seems like SC2 had a spectacular release, at least in the US. the average Starcraft player in Korea (who would make up the majority of the purchasing population) should in theory be more likely to purchase SC2 than the average Starcraft player or random gamer in the States. SC2 should be seeing bigger success in Korea than in the rest of the world. but. it. hasn't. that's all. cool?
|
In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys.
Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site.
http://gametrics.com/
|
On August 04 2010 15:44 socal50 wrote:
well, was it around 2001 when pimpest plays came out? so yeah, took at least 3 years for the game to start having its effect on me. people would expect a shorter timeframe since its a sequel. but trying to compare it to the success that took years and pitting it within a week or two of playtime? prob a bit premature what does pimpest plays have to do with the current success of SC2 in korea? it's just not selling...
On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:
One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one."
|
On August 04 2010 15:44 Velr wrote:
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care?
Cus people on this site generally like this thing called e-sports, and e-sports doesn't exist anywhere except Korea.
You downgrade SC2 to a buncha clan wars and the interest is similar gonna be pedestrian, instead of avid interest for a professionally-kept schedule, with regularly televised matches.
|
yea a lot of korean ppl are still playing the open-beta so don't xxxxxxx say it failed in korea.
|
I agree with the people who say it doesn't need to be great there.
Yes Korea did great things for BW, but if SC2 gets big everywhere else. Who cares?
|
On August 04 2010 15:51 Backpack wrote:
I agree with the people who say it doesn't need to be great there.
Yes Korea did great things for BW, but if SC2 gets big everywhere else. Who cares?
you have to remember that korea is the gaming capital of the world. So the fact that the sheer amount of people that play sc in the world of over half of it is in korea, and for that kind of fan base to not buy the game is huge in sales, the esports as a whole, and telling of how this game is gonna be perceived ten years out.
|
On August 04 2010 15:50 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:44 Velr wrote:
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care? Cus people on this site generally like this thing called e-sports, and e-sports doesn't exist anywhere except Korea. You downgrade SC2 to a buncha clan wars and the interest is similar gonna be pedestrian, instead of avid interest for a professionally-kept schedule, with regularly televised matches.
Totally agreed. Does SC2 need to succeed in Korea? Hell no. Would it be super nice for all us enthusiasts? Very much so, yes.
|
On August 04 2010 14:58 wholegrain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:54 onionchowder wrote:
I definitely agree that Blizzard tried to take their incredibly successful WoW scheme (attractive for casual/non-RTS gamers, accessible and easier to learn and use, emphasis on social aspects), and has not found the same level of compatibility with SC2. It's interesting to note that most of SC2's bugs or heavy technical problems are on the user-interface end (i.e. menu screens overheating graphics cards, issues logging on, NO LAN WTF, etc.), but the gameplay is very solid.
As for gauging the success in Korea... This may sound racist, but from my experience, Korea and Koreans have a fairly strong... conformist, conventional, follow-the-leader sheep mentality. Take a look at the Korean Pop Music industry and you'll see exactly what I mean. If the industry leaders, established eSports leagues, and famous progamers do not embrace SC2, then it will be a while before the Korean populace will move towards SC2.
To those people who say "SC2 is prettier and more sophisticated than SC1, people will inevitably switch to it", I believe Street Fighter 3 and Super Smash Bros Brawl prove otherwise; both were hyped sequels pre-release which were deemed less competitive post-release, and the competitive scene went back to the earlier game, SF2 and Melee. What the hell are you talking about? Are you serious? Why would conformism have anything to do with sale figures? You certainly made a fool of yourself right there.
If the industry leaders, established eSports leagues, and famous progamers do not embrace SC2, then it will be a while before the Korean populace will move towards SC2.
If the people are sheep and the leaders say "don't play SC2", then the sheep don't play SC2.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:45 redtooth wrote:lol are you implying that the majority of people who purchased SC2 are members of TL? last i checked, TL didn't have >1,000,000 members.
fine let's compare the general populace of Korea to the rest of the world. from the world's ("foreigner's") perspective Korea seems pretty hardcore at SC. yet at the same time, it seems like SC2 had a spectacular release, at least in the US. the average Starcraft player in Korea (who would make up the majority of the purchasing population) should in theory be more likely to purchase SC2 than the average Starcraft player or random gamer in the States. SC2 should be seeing bigger success in Korea than in the rest of the world. but. it. hasn't. that's all. cool?
You've lost track of where your original post began. Lets go back:
On August 04 2010 14:58 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%. The playtime metric is used to ascertain game popularity. Released on the 27th last month, SC2 posted a dismal 20th in internet cafe playtime but was expected to climb much higher on the weekend, with hopes that old-time starcraft fans would feel nostalgic and rush out to play SC2. But, on the 31st of last month, the first saturday after release, playtime was at a meager 2.49% (12th). Although the numbers continued to rally to peak at 2.6%, it failed to reach a critical level. This is in stark contrast with SC1, which kept its popularity, hanging on to the 6th spot. Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not. Taking into account the huge advertisement campaign and the success of the previous installment, the results were somewhat dissappointing. To add further concern, this period coincided with school holidays, a period considered the one of the golden peaks of gaming. So the question remains, where has all the interest gone? But, what about outright sales you ask? Surely, sales must be going through the roof since SC2 is such a great game. Unfortunately, SC2 is not even in the top10 games sold in korea. Dissappointingly, Blizzard's new game Starcraft 2 is struggling even in retail channels. With expectations that SC2 would enjoy a second wind in sales at the beginning of August now thoroughly crushed, some are cautiously predicting SC2 will turn out to be Blizzard's black sheep. One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one." Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues, EDITED with sources: 한국경제다음증권더게임스 Brood War is massive in Korea. Anyone who thought the change would come quickly is unbelievably foolish. Korea will resist the change for a long time because it's simply a radical change that isn't easy. Doesn't matter what the game was, it would be true with any two games. brood war is also massive among the veteran population of TeamLiquid. i'd say the "radical" change came rather quick, wouldn't you. despite the outrage and backlash TL exhibited against blizzard/activision, the members were still curious as what happened in the story and were willing to shell out $60 to get the game. it wouldn't have been too far a stretch to extrapolate what happened in TL to the rest of korea but obviously something went very very wrong.
You said that TL made a rather radical shift, despite initial antagonism, to purchasing SC2. You said (and correct me if I'm misinterpreting you), that by extension, Korea should have been ready to undergo a similar radical change.
My point was to say that the veteran TL user has spent far more time dissecting and analyzing Starcraft 2 than the average Korean gamer. Radical change only came about on TL through analysis, criticism, and, ultimately, a lot of gameplay to get accustomed to the new game. The average Korean gamer hasn't done all that yet. That's why "the veteran population of TeamLiquid" seemed to switch over to SC2 much more quickly than the general Korean gaming population.
You brought up the TL comparison. Not me.
|
To all the people that say "give it time". With the hype and money and promotion, SC2's time to shine is at the beginning. SC2 and SC1 started out on entirely different circumstances..
|
On August 04 2010 15:50 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:44 Velr wrote:
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care? Cus people on this site generally like this thing called e-sports, and e-sports doesn't exist anywhere except Korea. You downgrade SC2 to a buncha clan wars and the interest is similar gonna be pedestrian, instead of avid interest for a professionally-kept schedule, with regularly televised matches.
Well MLG is taking up SC2 and blizzard still has yet to release their plans for e-sports. Then there is whatever secret GomTV project tasteless keeps referencing.
SC2 is hardly "a buncha clanwars."
|
Isn't it odd that WC3 is more played in Korea than SC?
|
We don't need SC2 to be huge in Korea for it to be big elsewhere. As soon as we stop caring how successful or what Korea thinks of the game we can then move forward and build it up as an E-Sport in the West. I want it to be successful in Korea to see the insanely skilled players such as Flash and Jaedong duke it out, but it's not the end of E-Sports for SC2 if Korea does not pick it up.
|
On August 04 2010 15:05 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:56 junemermaid wrote:On August 04 2010 14:47 ArvickHero wrote:wow reading this thread a lot of butt-hurt and angry users that obviously only registered because of SC2. This shouldn't have been a surprise, seeing as there was an anti-Blizzard sentiment going on with all their shenanigans (i.e. the negotiations [or lack of], breaking ad laws, pissing off the PC Bangs). Anyways, as long as it doesn't touch my BW pro scene I'm fine.. On August 04 2010 14:47 junemermaid wrote:On August 04 2010 14:37 dNo_O wrote:On August 04 2010 14:34 vOddy wrote:On August 04 2010 13 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 13 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk. . I've seen korean progamers make fun of SC2. as they should. it's an alpha POS. i'd give it a year before it'll be halfway to what was promised. It was a tough choice, but you sir get the award for worst post on this thread. Do you even know what an Alpha build is? I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist, but I think you get that award instead for being stupid enough to even think he was using alpha in that context. Pray tell, how was he using it then? Think of alpha as the word fucking in this case, and maybe it'll make sense to you. Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:59 Midj wrote:
Wow.
Successful troll is successful. Seems like this guy is really stirring the pot with a shitty stick. If by troll = compiling some statistical facts, then yes he was successful. I feel as if I should hate SC2 for users like you :\
Looks like he added sources. And I got warned for calling him a troll because he cited absolutely nothing.
I hate you TL.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:59 Liquid_Turbo wrote:
To all the people that say "give it time". With the hype and money and promotion, SC2's time to shine is at the beginning. SC2 and SC1 started out on entirely different circumstances..
"At the beginning" should hardly means 6 days after release, in any circumstances.
|
Shouldn't the horrible subscription sales model be taken into account? Starcraft 2 is a more expensive product in Asia then it is here due to the fact that if you don't regularly pay, you'll be left with a useless piece of software. Quite natural imo that demand will be lower.
|
On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg*
|
On August 04 2010 16:08 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg*
Sudden Attack is not "some war FPS" in Korea. It's a very well played esport.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 16:08 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg*
Does anyone have the metrics for other countries in the world? Because I'm skeptical that SC2 would be one of the top played games in other places either. RTS isn't exactly the most popular genre of gaming.
|
Honestly, looking at the problems blizz and kespa are having and just for the fact that they have no reason to switch over. BW is still thriving. Its not really that surprising in my eyes. The game will probably grow slowly, probably stealing the older/weaker BW pros, make its own league, and will become another esport game in Korea, I dont know if it will be as big but Im willing to bet it will become fairly popular in korea sooner or later. This is just my opinion, but thats what I see happening.
But like people said, who cares? The reason its Korea is so involved is just because the accepted and raised it practically, that can easily be done else where. Being Korean doesnt mean you know what is a great RTS and what isnt... I loved BW and thought it was an AWESOME game before I even knew about the pro scene over there. I never understood why Korean thoughts became this "final word" of the game.... Is it as good as BW? Opinion. Will it last as long? Who knows.
Oh and for the people using the stupid argument of "its a sequel it should be instantly loved" thats a load of bull. This isnt math where 1+1=2.... Just because it was known before doesnt mean it should be completely accepted as its replacement for BW. Just because we have 12 years of BW knowledge doesnt mean SC2 should be balanced within the first week...
|
On August 04 2010 16:01 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:50 .risingdragoon wrote:On August 04 2010 15:44 Velr wrote:
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care? Cus people on this site generally like this thing called e-sports, and e-sports doesn't exist anywhere except Korea. You downgrade SC2 to a buncha clan wars and the interest is similar gonna be pedestrian, instead of avid interest for a professionally-kept schedule, with regularly televised matches. Well MLG is taking up SC2 and blizzard still has yet to release their plans for e-sports. Then there is whatever secret GomTV project tasteless keeps referencing. SC2 is hardly "a buncha clanwars."
I think it's safe to say that MLG is a non-factor. I'm interested to see how much views gomtv gets. If people aren't playing, maybe they're watching.
Personally I don't think SC2 is a very good watch, the way units move and bunch together, But maybe people will watch it.
The point is that if SC2 has the stuff to replace SC as a platform, why wouldn't people naturally gravitate over? It's not there yet. It plays okay, as a spectator sport it's inferior to SC, and I don't mean player skills not measuring up.
|
On August 04 2010 16:09 begin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:08 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg* Sudden Attack is not "some war FPS" in Korea. It's a very well played esport. I'm sure EA FIFA is also very well played esport (what Asian cultures take on doing, they usually dedicate seriously). That doesn't give me less shivers.
|
Oh this is the best thread I've read in a month!
Seriously I'm so happy.
I think I am one of the very few of the dedicated players who decided to not buy the game because of it's flaws. I think most bought the game even though they weren't satisfied with it and that's why there was no force behind any of the complaints. I knew that this would happen but I think you have to start somewhere. If Blizzard games always auto-sell, they will only continue to get worse.
If SC2 fails (at least in Korea, which was a huge part of the market for the older Bliz games), that would be really important.
And btw fu all you fanboys who bowed down and bought the game even though you thought it or bnet sucked.
|
On August 04 2010 16:14 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:09 begin wrote:On August 04 2010 16:08 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg* Sudden Attack is not "some war FPS" in Korea. It's a very well played esport. I'm sure EA FIFA is also very well played esport (what Asian cultures take on doing, they usually dedicate seriously). That doesn't give me less shivers.
If what you are trying to do is discredit gametrics I don't see what your angle is other than "fuck I've never heard of that game." and "I really don't think koreans would play a game about FOOTBALL"
|
On August 04 2010 16:12 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:01 Backpack wrote:On August 04 2010 15:50 .risingdragoon wrote:On August 04 2010 15:44 Velr wrote:
Judging from how SC2 is doing World Wide at the moment South Korea is not important to me at all. Why would i care? Cus people on this site generally like this thing called e-sports, and e-sports doesn't exist anywhere except Korea. You downgrade SC2 to a buncha clan wars and the interest is similar gonna be pedestrian, instead of avid interest for a professionally-kept schedule, with regularly televised matches. Well MLG is taking up SC2 and blizzard still has yet to release their plans for e-sports. Then there is whatever secret GomTV project tasteless keeps referencing. SC2 is hardly "a buncha clanwars." I think it's safe to say that MLG is a non-factor. I'm interested to see how much views gomtv gets. If people aren't playing, maybe they're watching. Personally I don't think SC2 is a very good watch, the way units move and bunch together, But maybe people will watch it. The point is that if SC2 has the stuff to replace SC as a platform, why wouldn't people naturally gravitate over? It's not there yet. It plays okay, as a spectator sport it's inferior to SC, and I don't mean player skills not measuring up.
I doubt we need to bring that old argument back up, its been beaten to death.
Blizzard gave kespa the finger so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the pro scene to switch over. SC2 can be successfull outside of korea. Will we have our own SC2 TV channels? Probably not anytime soon but the game still has to grow.
Its been out for a week for crying out loud.
|
On August 04 2010 16:15 Asta wrote:
And btw fu all you fanboys who bowed down and bought the game even though you thought it or bnet sucked.
I think neither suck. And I'm not a fanboy =\
|
On August 04 2010 16 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 16 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:15 Asta wrote:
Oh this is the best thread I've read in a month!
Seriously I'm so happy.
I think I am one of the very few of the dedicated players who decided to not buy the game because of it's flaws. I think most bought the game even though they weren't satisfied with it and that's why there was no force behind any of the complaints. I knew that this would happen but I think you have to start somewhere. If Blizzard games always auto-sell, they will only continue to get worse.
If SC2 fails (at least in Korea, which was a huge part of the market for the older Bliz games), that would be really important.
And btw fu all you fanboys who bowed down and bought the game even though you thought it or bnet sucked.
Yeah or maybe we also bought it for the campaign which was excellent? This game does have its flaws, sure, but I also have faith most of those will be ironed out, and no, I don't think they will just ignore the complaints because they still sell. They still have to sell numerous expansions after this one, and if this would be as much of a fail as you claim it to be, then these expansions will bought way less.
But then again, I am using common sense here.
|
Korea is important, doesn't matter what some of you apologists say.
It's important in only one, but very important sense - it very nearly overcame the social stigma of playing games seriously. It showed that watching a game being played can be entertaining for the masses, it can be professional, and it's legitimate.
A lot of people took chances for it to be what it is today. None of these things are a given. Here in the US unless you tackle this issue of social stigma it'll always amount to "a buncha clanwars" with a limited, niche, or "sub-culture" following, and not taken seriously.
|
On August 04 2010 16:17 begin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:14 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 16:09 begin wrote:On August 04 2010 16:08 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 15:46 begin wrote:In my opinion, OP is not trolling or lying you guys. Take a look on this site, it measures the most played games in Korea. More people are playing fuccen Ragnarok than SC2 according to this site. http://gametrics.com/ Well, according to this site the top 3 played games in Korea are some shiny RPG, EA FIFA, and some war FPS. *shruggg* Sudden Attack is not "some war FPS" in Korea. It's a very well played esport. I'm sure EA FIFA is also very well played esport (what Asian cultures take on doing, they usually dedicate seriously). That doesn't give me less shivers. If what you are trying to do is discredit gametrics I don't see what your angle is other than "fuck I've never heard of that game." and "I really don't think koreans would play a game about FOOTBALL" None of these, simply showing that according to this site the Korean's most played games are not even strats, and are certainly not games taken seriously by the pure Brood War community. Hence, the popular is popular, but that doesn't show what's important.
The most popular game in Korea could very well be minesweeper, but the big money will be in SC2 as the leagues switch over, and there are already serious teams like oGs, Prime, WeRRa, Zenith, and televised SC2 scene in Korea, which cannot be said for that many other countries.
Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
|
Doubt it's the game, probably the subscription model.
|
On August 04 2010 16:25 .risingdragoon wrote:
Korea is important, doesn't matter what some of you apologists say.
It's important in only one, but one very important sense - it very nearly overcame the social stigma of playing games seriously. It showed that watching a game being played can be entertaining for the masses, it can be professional, and it's legitimate.
A lot of people took chances for it to be what it is today. None of these things are a given. Here in the US unless you tackle this issue of social stigma it'll always amount to "a buncha clanwars" with a limited, niche, or "sub-culture" following, and not taken seriously.
Koreans played professionally for years and it never become more than a sub-culture in the west.
SC2 is already bigger than BW ever was in many places, just not Korea.
|
This is probably due to the blizzard/kespa war if you ask me
Try to envision a big bad foreign company stomping out the local business to take more profits
and in addition to that, creating a new product to threaten your current form of entertainment
I know i'd shun sc2 if i had this image of blizzard in my head
|
I'd like to read someone whos actually plaing on the korean gateway how many games are being played in their region during peak hours. You know, the number on the home screen that tells you how many people are actually playing the game? I don't even see why people are going crazy over these random PC bangs numbers. How about someone (maybe idra or artosis) could compare the numbers.
|
iirc, Korea currently has SC2 on open beta, and everyone can play the game free for 2 weeks.
I wouldn't rely on sales numbers atm until the open beta is over.
|
On August 04 2010 16:28 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:25 .risingdragoon wrote:
Korea is important, doesn't matter what some of you apologists say.
It's important in only one, but one very important sense - it very nearly overcame the social stigma of playing games seriously. It showed that watching a game being played can be entertaining for the masses, it can be professional, and it's legitimate.
A lot of people took chances for it to be what it is today. None of these things are a given. Here in the US unless you tackle this issue of social stigma it'll always amount to "a buncha clanwars" with a limited, niche, or "sub-culture" following, and not taken seriously.
Koreans played professionally for years and it never become more than a sub-culture in the west. SC2 is already bigger than BW ever was in many places, just not Korea.
Well duh, cus no esports figure exists here in the west with the charisma to be taken seriously. And no platform big enough exists. Even SC was just a freak accident, it wasn't made for esports in mind. The esports model has to radiate out from something, somewhere. If people start from scratch with SC2 it just means it'll take another 10 years, provided people take to it, which comes back to the issue of social stigma.
Besides, 1.5 mil worldwide is not that big considering how many people won't even try 1v1 melee. Korea has made in-road for 10 years, it's been lotta trial and error, and it got legit multinational companies like samsung to sponsor huge events. I hope they'll continue the work, otherwise it ain't gonna fly, at least not for years.
|
Even if what the OP says is true... so what? The fact remains that it is a great game.
In other news, Bobsled 2 has been a failure in Jamaica...
|
Given that there are BW leagues still running out their season, I would think the major spike in popularity will happen when whatever new SC2 leagues begin. No? Thoughts?
|
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose.
|
I don't know why people are saying why BW should be out of the way for SC2. These two games can co-exist for many many years in my opinion. I don't see why not. With everyone thinking that BW will go away for SC2, it just makes it more difficult for SC2 to get bigger. I'm guessing the reasoning behind this is because of the KeSPA drama and IP rights war.
SC2 has way more potential than SC if Korea embraces it in my opinion. With the influx of new players and awareness of SC2, it is no doubt that the SC2 scene will become great internationally. I'ts only the beginning. There's two more expansions left, and those expansions are said to introduce entirely new meta games (which will be like a different game, but all three versions will co-exist in tournaments).
Although the korean SC scene saw better days (Before the match fixing scandal/ SC2), it's still a big part of korea, so I don't think it will go away easily. Even if there is a large player base for SC2 in korea, Kespa still has the pro-gamers, and the pro-gamers are doing well where they are.
SC2 is a great game and I think if it becomes twice as big as BW, BW would die. Lets hope SC2 won't turn out so good that BW will die out completely.(I won't hope that) I still have doubts. It feels like you know something is going to happen but you think it won't.
|
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On August 04 2010 15:21 cerebralz wrote:
I think this, if it is accurate, has everything to do with the kespa/blizzard thing and the fact that the only progamers playing SC2 right now are retired from the mainstream. The S-Class pro's will get their hands on the game soon enough and when it's on TV it will take off.
Plus the fact that koreans in general (i am one) are very resistant to change and until it is 'accepted' fully, there will be a reluctance to go from what you do know to what you don't know. It's just a little different mechanic than the rest of the western world goes by. I think spreading negative press though, is probably bad for the esport in general and i would hope that people don't do it just to get some attention.
What will those S-Class pros find in the game? Korean auditories jumped into the air when seeing good reaver shots, lurker ambushes and minefield action. Blizzard took a concise stance on removing spectator-friendly units from the game and substituted it with Marauders, Immortals and Roaches. All those units have interesting, refreshing gameplay mechanics, but those mechanics influence the winner, not the process. All you see is a huge ball of invincible infantry (I still can't get used to the pathfinding mechanics) fighting a huge ball of invincible striders and one ball winning in the end. They may be interesting to play as, but they are ridiculously boring to watch.
There are many many issues with SC2. I hate the new saturation mechanics with a passion because I'm goddamn SICK of being forced to 4 gate before expanding in PvP. Economy is so broken in SC2 it's not even funny.
With the lack of early accessible AA and lack of terrain traversing units, SC1 was very drop-centric because commiting yourself to a drop usually led to you taking a very good and unexpected position. SC2? Protoss does not have a single unit even worth dropping and every goddamn race has something that protects them from drops anyway. Sensor towers, vikings, queens, faster movement on creep, whatever. I won't even start arguing on how a range 9(!) anti-air unit breaks the air part of the game.
Only a blind person would not see the problems with SC2. It's still a great game, but I seriously doubt it can be viable as a spectator sport in it's current shape. It's not that scary, before Brood War came, SC1 wasn't that much spectator-viable as well.
Btw, what's with all those <100 postcount fanboys everywhere? It looks like posting something like "SC2 has minor flaws" will attract kilotons of hate.
|
this is good news, sc2 blows
|
On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose.
lol troll. honestly I don't think you'll get these people here to apologize for actually understanding the game and knowing WTF the pros do, even if not 100% of the time.
What you call spamming APM, first it really doesn't take that much work, and second many actions add more depth to the game itself. All the skills you listed for SC2 are in SC (well duh). Actions in SC2 are no more intelligent than other in SC. It's just less complicated in a bad way so far. And the pathing in SC2 is not that good, if you bothered to actually play it lol.
So far it's good, but not fantastic as everyone would like it to be. But what does it matter to people like you? You'll play the SP and dabble in MP a little and move onto newer noncompetitive stuff in no time. People who actually "stick wit it" know what's what. Capice??? 
|
sc2: fun to play, not fun to watch
|
the more I watch SC2, the more I think that it will never be broadcasted on TV. Its terrible from viewers point. Even worse than wc3 imo. at least in wc3 the battles lasted longer, while in sc2 everything ends in 2 seconds. So as many people said, it is an ok game, fun to play, but absolutely terrible to watch.
|
On August 04 2010 16:51 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:21 cerebralz wrote:
I think this, if it is accurate, has everything to do with the kespa/blizzard thing and the fact that the only progamers playing SC2 right now are retired from the mainstream. The S-Class pro's will get their hands on the game soon enough and when it's on TV it will take off.
Plus the fact that koreans in general (i am one) are very resistant to change and until it is 'accepted' fully, there will be a reluctance to go from what you do know to what you don't know. It's just a little different mechanic than the rest of the western world goes by. I think spreading negative press though, is probably bad for the esport in general and i would hope that people don't do it just to get some attention. What will those S-Class pros find in the game? Korean auditories jumped into the air when seeing good reaver shots, lurker ambushes and minefield action. Blizzard took a concise stance on removing spectator-friendly units from the game and substituted it with Marauders, Immortals and Roaches. All those units have interesting, refreshing gameplay mechanics, but those mechanics influence the winner, not the process. All you see is a huge ball of invincible infantry (I still can't get used to the pathfinding mechanics) fighting a huge ball of invincible striders and one ball winning in the end. They may be interesting to play as, but they are ridiculously boring to watch. There are many many issues with SC2. I hate the new saturation mechanics with a passion because I'm goddamn SICK of being forced to 4 gate before expanding in PvP. Economy is so broken in SC2 it's not even funny. With the lack of early accessible AA and lack of terrain traversing units, SC1 was very drop-centric because commiting yourself to a drop usually led to you taking a very good and unexpected position. SC2? Protoss does not have a single unit even worth dropping and every goddamn race has something that protects them from drops anyway. Sensor towers, vikings, queens, faster movement on creep, whatever. I won't even start arguing on how a range 9(!) anti-air unit breaks the air part of the game. Only a blind person would not see the problems with SC2. It's still a great game, but I seriously doubt it can be viable as a spectator sport in it's current shape. It's not that scary, before Brood War came, SC1 wasn't that much spectator-viable as well. Btw, what's with all those <100 postcount fanboys everywhere? It looks like posting something like "SC2 has minor flaws" will attract kilotons of hate.
I might be a <100 post fanboy but the same thing was said when they made the change from the fast paced bunnyjumping 1.3 counter-strike to a more slow paced 1.4-1.6. Even though the game became a "worse" spectator sport it was still a good game and both HLTV audiences and amount of players grew exponentially.
Also I think there are lots of potentially exciting and spectacular mechanics(banelings, infestors, nydus, force fields etc.) in SC2 it's just that people haven't found out how to use them properly yet, plus the map editor has sick potential for professional dota like custom games.
Lastly, from what I understand Blizzard has been co-operating with pros with regards to map design and balance for a long while now and will continue doing so which means it will probably improve with patches and expansions.
|
Quite a number of things we don't want at a price we don't want. Good job, Korea.
|
I think SC2 is more fun than BW and I've been playing ladder etc since before WGT started up. Sure it needs less skills in some areas but it needs more in other ones. It took ages in SC/BW to develop the strategies and balance. Where as people have been playing the Beta for the past few months and now the game is out fully for a week. It will take some time for people to bring out the strategies and the great game play just like with SC/BW.
That game play didn't simply materialize over night, it took some innovation and I think a lot of you newer guys that picked up Broodwar are forgetting that, playing the game in 1998, then in 2001, and then today are like completely different monsters. Some of the older plays will know this but majority of you newer TL'ers simply wont.
Overall, Korea is not important to the Success of SC2, its the community. Korea is important for the E-Sport because they can make the Western E-Sport grow even more. The problem is all of you newer BW guys saying SC2 is failing because it has not replaced BW in Korea. Obviously you seem to forget how long it took BW to establish itself. Certainly, this is the successor to BW and everyone knows about it. But you are missing a very important step here. You want to uproot a game that has been a big scene in Korea for a very long time, where its a multi-billion dollar industry. People are not so willing to switch over immediately to something when millions and millions of dollars are at steak. It's not so simple to switch to a new product, when you already have a product that keeps making more and more money for you, even if its older.
Obviously the issue here is the KESPA/Blizzard dealings as well, KESPA should of been more open because after all they are profiting from a game that is not theirs and are not sharing those profits with the creators. Those same companies would do the same thing if it was their product. But the point is Kespa/Blizzard should of done a more civilized deal that could of allowed Kespa to keep running BW as the pro scene and introduce the SC2 scene as well. Something that would of established SC2 with even more popularity. Hence why I really hated the Kespa/Blizzard dispute because it put the games success as an esport in danger.
Also lot of people seem to be forgetting the fact that Blizzard basically said you get SC2 for free in Korea if you got a WoW account and Asia has the biggest share of WoW subscriptions if I recall correctly. Not to mention they also still have the open beta going for people to try it out.
Also lastly before I forget, you people do realize that STARCRAFT 2 is a RTS, I repeat, its a RTS. Something that your average joe does not buy. SC2 selling 1.5 million copies in the first 2 days is nothing short of a miracle, because it is an RTS, something deemed hard for the normal folk.
If you gave an average person a choice of weather they wanted an FPS or a RTS the person would pick the FPS. just saying.
Also, as finishing comment, the people running like headless chickens about SC2 failing and how terrible it is makes me chuckle. The only thing I hate so far about SC2 is the fact I can't play cross server, which was the most retarded thing Blizzard has done and I blame Activision because obviously they want you to buy another copy to play on a different server but hey the game is more fun then BW. Also not having chat channels is pretty retarded as well, I mean common really?
Other then that yeah heh
|
I don't get how people say sc2 is boring to watch. I find both sc1 and sc2 fun to watch and play both in different ways. I think its just a lot of sc1 people have this instant thought that sc1 is the best and no way will sc2 even be half as good and thats why i think they hate on this game so much. They don't even give it a chance but say its "shitty" "boring to watch" "requires no skill".
If you don't like sc2 cool why go to the sc2 section and post about it all the time? I mean imagine if a bw hater posted in most bw topics going "yeah this game sucks how can you like it?". Its pretty annoying. If you don't like sc2 cool if you like it more power to you.
Either way i love both games they are both insanely fun and i can watch both for hours which is what I do when I can't play for whatever reason ^^.
|
On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose.
This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
|
sc2 just doesn't have flashy units. that's the problem.
reaver, lurker, vultures with mines were all units with low hp and high damage potential.
sc2 has reaper... and thats pretty much it?
|
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
New users like this guy, make me feel ashamed.
|
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a Game Where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. man, the elitist Air from these BW people is Really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put Into BW was literally Just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across Mineral patches, make workers aTtacK faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 Only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been SaiD. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to Actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as FanTastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will Never change their minds. They can have fun with their Game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated Game Ever. It was a fun Game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
User was warned for this post
|
On August 04 2010 17:14 Zalfor wrote:
sc2 just doesn't have flashy units. that's the problem.
reaver, lurker, vultures with mines were all units with low hp and high damage potential.
sc2 has reaper... and thats pretty much it?
hmmm perhaps the expansions will bring out these types of units?
|
Starcraft 2 has AMAZING gameplay and it's ladder system imo is a huge success cuz now you dont have to go on iccup and get your face smashed every single game.
but
the sound effects and the lack of adrenaline and the more clunky unit looks...cough cough marauders cough....completely ruin the game for watching. the sound effects of starcraft 2 are absolutely without a question GOD AWFUL. it's the only part of the core gameplay that i HATE. but the fact that sc2 is significantly slower in pace ruins it as well. like compare the collosus to the reaver as they both have similar function. reaver did the same job cept needed a shuttle(heartpounding adrenaline cuz shuttles die easily) and it's scarabs could kill like 8 scvs INSTANTLY, also scarabs could be outran which was fun to watch.
im not saying take out the collosus and put the reaver back but starcraft 2 NEEDS these things like reavers, lurkers and spider mines that just make people scream with excitement. nobody jumps out of their chair going OOOMG! when they notice a banshee cloak and slowly fly over to the mineral line and pick of workers...one...at...a...time.
sc2 units are no fun.
if the developers TRULY wanted starcraft 2 to succeed they should either patch the game with better more original units and/or update the sound fx to at leats be as good as the original made 12 years ago? lol thats what baffles me about the sound fx is that it's 12 years more developed but sounds like garbage. watching the sound effect part of the behind the scenes DVD i inda wanted to smack the guy for ruining the game.
cuz now that im on it starcraft 2 does have banelings and hellions that deal hefty damage instantly but their sounds and their animations are incredibly BAD. and honestly the hellion needs a better model too.
i can ramble for ages on how terrible the background stuff is for starcraft 2 but the core gameplay of it is a success. is there any way to voice this to blizzard cuz i really care about the future of this game and would like it to be an fast, fun and exciting esport like BW
|
Also according to the same site BW is played just around 6% of all the gaming time of average Koreans. In this light a new pure RTS game (meaning less popular, as the most popular games we have shown are of other genres, even in Korea) - to start immediately as nearly half as popular as BW is a huge success. And this happens before even the leagues kick off, before expansions, engine optimizations for better gameplay (certainly to be expected, as Blizzard discusses issues with the top players); there's a long way to go.
Right now BW:SC2 is about 2:1 or 3:1, and BW is still the better game, but the margin is not drastic. Yes, SC2 is still not that interesting to watch, even though it's already televised competitively in Korea. Yes, battles are too quick, the macro game is not macro enough. Yes - but all those issues are fixable. And they will have to be fixed, as top players demand them in briefings with Blizzard. Remember, Blizzard had to release, pushed by Activision to meet the deadline, which doesn't mean Blizzard is anywhere nearly done with their design of the new starcraft. To me SC2 is starcraft; and as any patches of a game, there are following re-patches, some things will be reverted to earlier stages etc.
|
We're pleased to announce that within one day of being on sale, StarCraft® II sold more than 1 million copies worldwide, making it the bestselling PC game of 2010 in under 24 hours of availability. By the end of the 2nd day, it had sold a total of 1.5 million copies worldwide, setting the record for fastest-selling strategy game of all time. We want to thank everyone who turned out for the midnight launch events around the world, and everyone else who has already picked up or downloaded a copy of the game, for making StarCraft II the biggest PC game launch of the year.
lulz. /thread
User was warned for this post
|
|
|
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
I think there is only 1 monkey out there that's worried about clicking fast and thats you. To say that BW pro scene does not involve strategy or skill is disrespectful and naive to say the least.
|
I wouldn't pay for a wow subscription just for playing starcraft2. If they made the same in europe/us, blizzards new strategy game would be a uber fail. :D
|
the game is really really bad, its blatantly imbalanced to the point were a todler can notice. but i have hope it will be balanced with coming patches or expansions, but round 1 is defiantly a massive flop in my personal opinion.
|
Considering every Korean WoW account gets SC2 for free, the amount of players is nowhere near equal to the amount of sales.
Also, popularity statistics for the month the game was in beta are being taken seriously? Let's get the statistics of August before we discuss this.
Not to say it won't be a total flop, but we need more information before we can judge it.
|
Sc2 in Korea is still open beta isn't it?
|
10387 Posts
Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally?
and to those saying that Korea is not important to SC2.. you have got to be seriously kidding yourselves. If SC2 doesn't succeed in Korea, do you think you'll ever see anything as prestigious as the OSL, or something as glorious as a PL final on Gwanganri? Not to mention if BW was dominated by foreigners instead of Koreans, the game would be 3-5 years behind where it is now. PvZ would probably look something like Undead vs Orc.
Also this talk about Blizzard closely collaborating with top pros for balancing.. I don't think that's that great of an idea. Sure it might balance the game in its current state, but it would effectively limit strategical options and evolution imo. One great beauty of BW was that the game was essentially unchanged since 2000, and instead of going to Blizzard to whine about some unit being OP they just dealt with it and the game was balanced by maps and their own play.
Then again, when a lot of the units actually weren't that well designed, maybe it's better to just collaborate with the pros..
|
I think I've seen this pattern somewhere :
- Random dude make post about how Starcraft 2 is bad or totally awesome for X and Y reason and make a prophecy about the future.
- BW or SC2 fan boys begin to aggree/disagree with absolutly no sense of criticism
- Insults here and there
- The thread gets eventually closed
- 2 days later go to step 1
I mean, the game is good, has some flaws though. It's very popular and the hype is really big for a game this early. Korean have BW like we have the NHL... you can't ask them to be has excited has us. Let time do its job.
|
On August 04 2010 17:20 Raiznhell wrote:
Starcraft 2 has AMAZING gameplay and it's ladder system imo is a huge success cuz now you dont have to go on iccup and get your face smashed every single game.
but
the sound effects and the lack of adrenaline and the more clunky unit looks...cough cough marauders cough....completely ruin the game for watching. the sound effects of starcraft 2 are absolutely without a question GOD AWFUL. it's the only part of the core gameplay that i HATE. but the fact that sc2 is significantly slower in pace ruins it as well. like compare the collosus to the reaver as they both have similar function. reaver did the same job cept needed a shuttle(heartpounding adrenaline cuz shuttles die easily) and it's scarabs could kill like 8 scvs INSTANTLY, also scarabs could be outran which was fun to watch.
im not saying take out the collosus and put the reaver back but starcraft 2 NEEDS these things like reavers, lurkers and spider mines that just make people scream with excitement. nobody jumps out of their chair going OOOMG! when they notice a banshee cloak and slowly fly over to the mineral line and pick of workers...one...at...a...time.
sc2 units are no fun.
if the developers TRULY wanted starcraft 2 to succeed they should either patch the game with better more original units and/or update the sound fx to at leats be as good as the original made 12 years ago? lol thats what baffles me about the sound fx is that it's 12 years more developed but sounds like garbage. watching the sound effect part of the behind the scenes DVD i inda wanted to smack the guy for ruining the game.
cuz now that im on it starcraft 2 does have banelings and hellions that deal hefty damage instantly but their sounds and their animations are incredibly BAD. and honestly the hellion needs a better model too.
i can ramble for ages on how terrible the background stuff is for starcraft 2 but the core gameplay of it is a success. is there any way to voice this to blizzard cuz i really care about the future of this game and would like it to be an fast, fun and exciting esport like BW
scarab = hunter seeker missile
also, i don't really feel there's any problem with the sound or models, and the animations are gosu. the protoss changed style from sinister tough guys to carebear draenai, but only carebears play protoss so i don't see a problem.
|
Watching old BW VODs is painful and not entertaining. They dont do efficient stuff, they cant harass properly, they were just bad.
Same apply for SC2.
The game has been out for a week.
Why cant you understand this ? How is this difficult ?
How models or animations can remove the fun from a game ? Its like saying BW isnt fun to watch cause its old and has bad graphics. You're using the same arguments that bashers are using against BW.
You're talking about low hp units that can do tons of damage. Banelings ? hellions (they do more damage to workers than vultures) ? HT, Colossi ?
There will be huge games, when some pro koreans will take the game seriously, you'll see ton of baneling drops onto workers with infestors, nydus flank on other army, offensive nydus and countless other things.
The game will be fun to watch when there will be huge money on the line and when people will have practice thousand of hours and find out every little glitch, balance in the game and timings.
It will take years, several patches and expansions, what do you expect ?
|
I guess these "Experts" who are looking at the game time of SC2 on net cafés fail to realize that one CANNOT play SC2 without buying the game in the first place!
I blame Activision for making b.net 2,0 the way it is. People who goes to net cafés usually just need to pay the store and are able to play SC1 and WC3 without the need of buying the game. However because of how b.net 2.0 is fail, it forces potential players in net cafés to buy the game to even play SC2. If they had a copy of SC2 why would they need to go to a net café in the first place?
Unlike here in the western hemisphere, Asia`s people don`t usually own a personal computer. When they need one they just go to a net café. Many of you may not understand this but just imagine the following scenario:
I am a highschooler in korea. It is the holidays but I don`t have a PC and only have enough money to play at net cafés occasionally. Why would I buy a $60 game AND pay the net café to play a game that I won`t have much time to spend with?
So of course SC2 will fail in the net cafés. Activision is forcing anyone who even wants to try the game to buy it!
Edit:
God I can`t believe I made an account just to put this point out... <.<
|
On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively.
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:
BW is the most overrated Game Ever. It was a fun Game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. Very unfortunate that you used harsh language that people would easily bash you for, while some of your arguments are valid - not every mechanic of BW is meaningful strategically. I.e. people are doing a lot of clicking and key-pressing the same way over and over in each game, without this being related in any way to their ability to think strategically. Blizzard never considered this normal, just it was what they could implement efficiently enough for multiplayer, but they always wanted to improve it, so they did.
|
On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? and to those saying that Korea is not important to SC2.. you have got to be seriously kidding yourselves. If SC2 doesn't succeed in Korea, do you think you'll ever see anything as prestigious as the OSL, or something as glorious as a PL final on Gwanganri? Not to mention if BW was dominated by foreigners instead of Koreans, the game would be 3-5 years behind where it is now. PvZ would probably look something like Undead vs Orc. Also this talk about Blizzard closely collaborating with top pros for balancing.. I don't think that's that great of an idea. Sure it might balance the game in its current state, but it would effectively limit strategical options and evolution imo. One great beauty of BW was that the game was essentially unchanged since 2000, and instead of going to Blizzard to whine about some unit being OP they just dealt with it and the game was balanced by maps and their own play. Then again, when a lot of the units actually weren't that well designed, maybe it's better to just collaborate with the pros..
OSL etc earned its status _over time_ cause back in the day it was just good to have and it evolved into what it is now.
on a sidenote u should not spread false information as for example 1.08 happend in 2001 which was huge (remember the 150>200 pool?)
|
Yes, time will tell whether this is true or not.But I have to remaind you that the market of Chinese mainland has not mentioned, because the delay and I am sure the Chinese market will contribute a lot to blz.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:42 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively.
To put things in perspective, Boxer stated that he was prepared to switch to WC3 if that became the main eSport when it came out. Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Neither of these instances show that interest in SC2 is growing in Korea, it was pretty much the same as it always was.. more like its starting to shrink with the dismal numbers.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:42 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively. To put things in perspective, Boxer stated that he was prepared to switch to WC3 if that became the main eSport when it came out. Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Neither of these instances show that interest in SC2 is growing in Korea, it was pretty much the same as it always was.. more like its starting to shrink with the dismal numbers.
On August 04 2010 17:45 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? and to those saying that Korea is not important to SC2.. you have got to be seriously kidding yourselves. If SC2 doesn't succeed in Korea, do you think you'll ever see anything as prestigious as the OSL, or something as glorious as a PL final on Gwanganri? Not to mention if BW was dominated by foreigners instead of Koreans, the game would be 3-5 years behind where it is now. PvZ would probably look something like Undead vs Orc. Also this talk about Blizzard closely collaborating with top pros for balancing.. I don't think that's that great of an idea. Sure it might balance the game in its current state, but it would effectively limit strategical options and evolution imo. One great beauty of BW was that the game was essentially unchanged since 2000, and instead of going to Blizzard to whine about some unit being OP they just dealt with it and the game was balanced by maps and their own play. Then again, when a lot of the units actually weren't that well designed, maybe it's better to just collaborate with the pros.. OSL etc earned its status _over time_ cause back in the day it was just good to have and it evolved into what it is now. on a sidenote u should not spread false information as for example 1.08 happend in 2001 which was huge (remember the 150>200 pool?)
el oh el, prestige by name is one thing, but I was more referring to something like the Finals being held LIVE in front of tens of thousands of people.. no online tourney will ever even closely rival that, regardless of how long its been played over time.
And jeez, one year difference, simple mistake. Did it look like I was intentionally being malicious?
|
On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:
Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Which proves SC2 is considered a serious esport by Koreans, otherwise they wouldn't care about matchfixers joining something that's failing to become esport anyway.
|
On August 04 2010 17:47 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:42 figq wrote:On August 04 2010 17:29 ArvickHero wrote:Jung Myung Hoon (fantasy) included "Starcraft 2" as one of the things on his mind, in recent Ro16 ceremony. UpMagiC and other legendary or suspended names already switched to SC2, or are playing it actively.
Fantasy probably only listed it because he's thinking realistically, that at some point he'll have to switch to SC2 if BW dies out. As for Upmagic.. I guess you missed the newspost where there was netizen outrage about him even considering to play SC2 professionally? Sure, but both cases show the Korean interest in SC2 is growing, and pro's are taking it very seriously. People wouldn't care much if Upmagic played minesweeper competitively. To put things in perspective, Boxer stated that he was prepared to switch to WC3 if that became the main eSport when it came out. Plus the match fixers are pretty much universally reviled in Korea, if they try to get back into eSports in any way, there will be an uproar. Neither of these instances show that interest in SC2 is growing in Korea, it was pretty much the same as it always was.. more like its starting to shrink with the dismal numbers.
K
User was warned for this post
K
|
As has been stated, there are multiple factors that make the data posted--at best--to be taken with a grain of salt. While it's understandable that people have some scornful emotions towards SC2 for a variety of reasons, it's a somewhat premature to make sweeping claims about SC2's potential as a progaming sport and/or its success in Korea.
The fact there is a lot invested in programing BW in Korea (i.e. money) means it will not be an overnight thing. Furthermore, the way the game is being marketed means it will be hard to pin-point sales figures (give it 3-4 months). Even if the game does not catch on in Korea and it does in US/EU, I don't understand the problem with that?
Regarding my personal opinion--and yes, I know I'm not super good at this game--this is a strategy game. This makes the APM/skill cap arguments somewhat questionable. If you take out the menial tasks out of BW (probe rallying, etc) what would you say a decent APM is? Does the fact workers actually mine on their own make this less of a strategy game? I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the trash talking was politics. Even if there was no controversy as to SC2's skill and/or lack thereof, there would be a lot ot be lost for people whose paychecks rely on years of practice. I certainly would not want to switch to a game that I start at zero with. You can't factor out idolizing (of the game) either. Obviously, these are speculations and cannot be supported with "sources".
At the end of the day, all this animosity is befuddling. If you love BW, then it still exists. Blizzard is a company, and they (seemingly) did their best to try to make the core game as solid as possible. Perhaps their math was off or perhaps David Kim did a crappy job consulting -- who knows? As much as you and everybody else wanted the game to be everything you dreamed, there was no promises etched in a scroll. This just seems like a severe overreaction to something that has no affect if the naysayers are right.
|
Edit:
God I can`t believe I made an account just to put this point out... <.<
Very interesting to get your input Clogon.
On August 04 2010 17:40 Clogon wrote:
I guess these "Experts" who are looking at the game time of SC2 on net cafés fail to realize that one CANNOT play SC2 without buying the game in the first place!
I blame Activision for making b.net 2,0 the way it is. People who goes to net cafés usually just need to pay the store and are able to play SC1 and WC3 without the need of buying the game. However because of how b.net 2.0 is fail, it forces potential players in net cafés to buy the game to even play SC2. If they had a copy of SC2 why would they need to go to a net café in the first place?
Unlike here in the western hemisphere, Asia`s people don`t usually own a personal computer. When they need one they just go to a net café. Many of you may not understand this but just imagine the following scenario:
I am a highschooler in korea. It is the holidays but I don`t have a PC and only have enough money to play at net cafés occasionally. Why would I buy a $60 game AND pay the net café to play a game that I won`t have much time to spend with?
So of course SC2 will fail in the net cafés. Activision is forcing anyone who even wants to try the game to buy it!
Edit:
God I can`t believe I made an account just to put this point out...
Well, in past times, the net cafes would have to buy the game to install them on their pc's, and then the users would pay to rent the pc and the game. Now the game client is free to download, but the players needs to have a licensed battle.net account to play. So the tables have turned, but I wouldn't really call it unfair.
Hopefully Blizzard willy be able to find a payment model that could that suits your country. Also, 60$ seems expensive, you should expect to pay more like 40-45.
|
IMO success has to do with how exciting the game is as others have pointed out in the thread.
KOTB had some nail biting moments and good reactions from the crowd. It is probably the only event that has given me faith in the future of SC2 being spectator friendly.
Those games however would have been mediocre to watch if it were not for the big names playing, the good commentary, and money and pride on the line. It creates an atmosphere similar to BW games were reputations of good players are at stake, and shots at money along with countless hours spent preparing for those moments. People enjoy knowing how much they work for that game you are about to watch. When you watch pros play BW you are watching people who dedicate their lives to it and have made a name for themselves over time.
The only current player that really interests people and care about him winning is TLO, he provides everything a player wants with creative plays, but doesn't win as much as people would like
In BW there were REEBO REEBO!, dropship saves, plague, mines, zealot drops, and more.
In StarCraft 2 all the abilities that can give "wow moments" come way too late to keep people interested in the early game
-Thor drops have been nerfed are no longer special or utilized as often because of the fire rate nerf, and are limited to being dropped on cliffs or used as mobile defense turrets for an insta win vs mutalisks on most occasions.
-Reapers and Hellions are the Omg how many kills is he going to get?! Until a stalker or speedlings arrive and reapers disappear and go find some place to refuel at a xel naga for the remainder of the game. Hellions however can create excitement frying drones and now find use into armies for late game.
-Infestors with fungal growth can sneak into mineral lines and decimate a worker line if the expo is recently put up, this comes far too late into a game to be exciting. Everyone has far too many workers at that point, and can be fixed using mules and chrono boosts. Neural Parasite used to have a wow factor when players could position them correctly to make it difficult for the enemy to hit them, but now they have added a timer making it much less exciting almost certainly because they had to increase the range of the parasite so it didn't get rolled by Terran's ranged units.
-Siege tanks don't overkill. Dropship play, zealot bombs, infested terran being useful? none. This leads games against terran to be a turtle fest with normally no way to advance and instead cause most players to wait until they are out of position. (Grats on your "flanking" you zerg so skillfully use.)
-Banelings are probably the only early game unit that causes an actually wow factor. Whether they are burrowed waiting for units to walk over them, or sadly rarely dropped by overlords because with such small maps resources are usually not spent on 200/200 overlord carry. Right now banelings are just normally used to hard counter bio or do a baneling bust as zerg's only timing attack. Boring.
Doom Drops are scarcely used due to the small map sizes, unless you have a complete advantage most of the time you are just initiating a base race, causing the enemy to send a group of marauders stimming from expo to expo mowing them down while being cutesy with nydus worms, overlords, other drop ships.
I could go into how much the strategies and build orders have changed drastically and for the better since the beginning of the beta, but it is late.
|
On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote:Regarding my personal opinion--and yes, I know I'm not super good at this game--this is a strategy game.
No it is real time strategy so it requires both speed/precise of execution, and strategy, the same for SC2 just less speed/precise of execution.
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy.
On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote:This makes the APM/skill cap arguments somewhat questionable. If you take out the menial tasks out of BW (probe rallying, etc) what would you say a decent APM is? Does the fact workers actually mine on their own make this less of a strategy game?
Yes it does as nobody can do everything, you need to decide what actions are more important, that is way more complex then only deciding what actions are worth doing.
On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote: I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose.
So what? Keyboard+mouse wasn't design to control games, that doesn't make gamepads better.
|
Sweden1867 Posts
The game is 7 days old - wtf is this discussion about exactly?
All the arguments and shit that this thread is about has already been presented. Things take time to evolve, and regardless of how SC2 will fail or not that wont show until later.
|
I see lots of people playing SC2 in PC bangs here in Seoul. I see many doing single player, maybe they want to get the feel of the game first.
Also remember that SC2 is free to play here (for now) if you have a korean b.net account. So there's no reason for a korean to buy a copy yet.
|
Don't you get Starcraft 2 for free and pay to play in South Korea? That's why it doesn't show up in the sales.
Edit: WHY DO WE CRY ABOUT BALANCE ISSUES THERE NOT BEING ENOUGH SKILL IN MICROING OR THE SLOWER PACE OF THE GAME.
We got a great editor where we can fix all that, sort off like a promod. I know this community isn't fond of that. But yeah, stop crying.
|
Canada2480 Posts
On August 04 2010 13:50 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. Excuse me? Find me a single prominent person in the BW competitive scene who says that SC2 is a bad game, and then we'll talk.
from Nalra's oldboy episode 11 (if I remember)
Nalra: shiel batteries should be able to regenerate shield all over the map
random KT player: that sounds like SC2
Flash: Nah, that game is crap (not sure if FlaSh was the one who said it but it looked like it, someone from the KT house at least)
|
On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy. That's the thing - why not? You can be sure people will be spending the remaining game time / pace into something. I'd rather see them do more flanks, feints, drops, heals, repairs, than spend this energy on clicking 15 barracks one by one. Yes, those things are tactics, but improving tactics leads to improving strategies. This already happens to some extent if one watches how Koreans play SC2 and compares with others.
It's a bit sad if BW = SC2 + more challenging click/press rate. It's not who plays better strategy, but who plays better strategy while doing some redundant (but required) actions to execute it. Like they could add a special sub-game to be clicked and pressed within SC2 - if you want to build from 10 gateways, you are required 150 more actions per minute on the mini-game. It's like playing fast chess while... solving a ton of 3rd grade math problems. You want a queen move? Okay, but first solve ten of those: x+3 = 14/5. Sweating already? Jaedong is not sweating!
|
On August 04 2010 17:29 Dr.Frost wrote:
Sc2 in Korea is still open beta isn't it?
Yeah.... I wouldn't be too concerned with sales figures. The Lan played time is revealing, but I'm sure when/if professional sc2 begins the game will take off.
|
On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 18:01 gospelwut wrote: I can concede to arguments about muta micro and all that -- though, those probably developed from an engine made in 1998 more than on purpose. So what? Keyboard+mouse wasn't design to control games, that doesn't make gamepads better.
I probably articulated that poorly. I didn't mean to insult it as much say some elements of BW were naturally going ot be more difficult to emulate with a more sophisticated engine.--regardless of such criticism of things like the cascading pushing, etc.
I can understand your point on the RTS and choice of action though. I would make the argument that the remaining APM of high-level playres could be spent doing other things. Only time will prove if I'm right/wrong.
On August 04 2010 18:40 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 18:18 Polis wrote:
Less speed/precise of execution =/= more strategy. That's the thing - why not? You can be sure people will be spending the remaining game time / pace into something. I'd rather see them do more flanks, feints, drops, heals, repairs, than spend this energy on clicking 15 barracks one by one. Yes, those things are tactics, but improving tactics leads to improving strategies. This already happens to some extent if one watches how Koreans play SC2 and compares with others. It's a bit sad if BW = SC2 + more challenging click/press rate. It's not who plays better strategy, but who plays better strategy while doing some redundant (but required) actions to execute it. Like they could add a special sub-game to be clicked and pressed within SC2 - if you want to build from 10 gateways, you are required 150 more actions per minute on the mini-game. It's like playing fast chess while... solving a ton of 3rd grade math problems. You want a queen move? Okay, but first solve ten of those: x+3 = 14/5. Sweating already? Jaedong is not sweating!
Hey, I loved the calculator in FFT - heh.
|
There is an old Korean saying: “Ten years are enough to change rivers and mountains.”
Needless to say, Korea’s online gaming scene moves even more quickly, and when “StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty” made its debut last week it was into a vastly different market from the one that greeted the original “StarCraft” in 1998.
That didn’t stop Hahn Jung-won, Blizzard Entertainment’s regional managing director for North Asia, from telling a cheering crowd at a launch party in Gangnam, southern Seoul last Monday night, “It has finally come!”
However, the past week has revealed challenges that Blizzard Entertainment, the U.S.-based developer of the critically-acclaimed sequel, must overcome in Korea, where the original StarCraft set off a professional gaming craze.
Not only will StarCraft II have to compete against the first games - still very popular here - it also has legitimate rivals in other franchises.
According to market researcher Gametrics, on Monday, the day before StarCraft II’s debut, the most-played game at Korea’s ubiquitous PC bang game rooms was “Aion,” from domestic developer NCsoft, followed by Neowiz Games’ “FIFA Online,” CJ Internet’s “Sudden Attack” and Nexon’s “MapleStory.”
“Compared to 10 years ago, there are several Korean-made online games that are proving well-made and competitive,” said an industry insider. “It would be difficult to leave a strong impression among them.”
FIFA Online, in particular, has recently seen its popularity surge after the World Cup, while MapleStory set a record for online users of 410,000 after its latest update.
For this reason, analysts predict StarCraft II will not automatically make a big market splash. “We haven’t yet detected a large number of people who play other games like those from NCsoft switching to StarCraft II,” said Kim Chang-geon, an analyst at Daewoo Securities.
Blizzard also has to resolve two major issues affecting PC bang and e-sports leagues - factors that had everything to do with the first StarCraft’s explosive success.
The developer decided to charge PC bangs 250 won ($0.21) per hour to play the game, a change from the first game, which demanded only the purchase price.
“There isn’t yet a sign of collaborative movement from PC bang owners, but they are certainly not happy with the charge and this has contributed to [the game’s] lackluster performance so far,” said an official with the Korea Internet PC Culture Association.
Blizzard is also experiencing friction with the Korean e-Sports Association, or KeSPA, over StarCraft’s copyright. Blizzard claims the association made a profit selling StarCraft broadcast licenses without consent, but KeSPA complains the company is only raising the issue now that e-sports has driven up sales.
Blizzard recently signed an exclusive broadcasting contract with Gretech, a software company that operates the Web channel GOMtv. This means KeSPA will have to pay Gretech to broadcast pro-StarCraft matches.
The state-run Korea Creative Content Agency announced last week that it will intervene. “Our basic principle is to acknowledge Blizzard’s copyrights of StarCraft,” an agency official said.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2924061
|
I don't think SC2 is going to flop in Korea at all. I just think it will take them some time to warm up to it!
|
On August 04 2010 14 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 14 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:04 backtoback wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13:55 Sfydjklm wrote:
Don't hear Moon and his enormous salary go around complaining about how WC3 failed in korea. haha nice! I can't even tell why watching WC3 is even good compared to BW and moon makes the $$$$
Well I could tell you that above a cup of coffee, anyday.
|
SC2 has been released for a week.
Calm down with your statistics.
Of course SK is going to be reluctant to switch from SC to SC2.
It's like their national sport. Give them time to see SC2's economical potential and they will switch.
|
On August 04 2010 17:36 dafunk wrote:
Watching old BW VODs is painful and not entertaining. They dont do efficient stuff, they cant harass properly, they were just bad.
Same apply for SC2.
The game has been out for a week.
Why cant you understand this ? How is this difficult ?
How models or animations can remove the fun from a game ? Its like saying BW isnt fun to watch cause its old and has bad graphics. You're using the same arguments that bashers are using against BW.
You're talking about low hp units that can do tons of damage. Banelings ? hellions (they do more damage to workers than vultures) ? HT, Colossi ?
There will be huge games, when some pro koreans will take the game seriously, you'll see ton of baneling drops onto workers with infestors, nydus flank on other army, offensive nydus and countless other things.
The game will be fun to watch when there will be huge money on the line and when people will have practice thousand of hours and find out every little glitch, balance in the game and timings.
It will take years, several patches and expansions, what do you expect ?
I don't know why people consistently bring up the fact that SC2 has only been out a week ALL THE TIME, as if the initial 10 years of playing SCBW have no impact at all on how quickly people will come up with strategies or how quickly people will be efficient.
Models and animations can remove fun from the game when they are clunky and sound horrible. Yes SCBW doesn't have the best graphics but the graphics it does have are absolutely perfect for what they do. It's a matter of opinion. I personally have no real problem with the way SC2 looks.
As for low hp units that can do tons of damage....You mention banelings and that's about it. SC2 in general is a slower paced game, it's a pretty undeniable statement and you compound this with the fact that worker harass has less impact in SC2 compared to SC1 due to the macro mechanics added and the way the worker AI works to gather resources.
I just find it kind of funny that everyone just assumes SC2 will be big in Korea as if its a forgone conclusion. One I don't see. This isn't some glorymongering dream to keep SCBW in the spotlight or anything (I really hoped SC2 would take BW's place...) but more of the realization that BW is an outlier. All those glitches and game quirks in BW came together to make a nearly perfectly balanced game. SC2 isn't going to HAVE those glitches...hell Blizzard couldn't even replicate stacking mutalisks.
I don't think there will ever be an SC2 equivalent of the OSL/MSL but meh that's just me.
|
If you think the game is so bad, why are you posting about it on a Starcraft site?
It really doesn't matter how well the game even does in Korea, unless that effects you're own enjoyment of the game . . .
|
hell Blizzard couldn't even replicate stacking mutalisks.
they deemed it overpowered and removed mutalisk stacking after a player stacked 40 mutalisks and oneshotted buildings.
its a new game. Popularity takes time. The west is having a NOW NOW NOW attitude while Korea probably went with a more, lets wait for a few moments or even years. There is no need for them to transition fully into sc2 and then just forget about broodwar.
The commotion is apparently about how little it is being played in pc baangs.
|
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
|
On August 04 2010 19:25 Madkipz wrote:they deemed it overpowered and removed mutalisk stacking after a player stacked 40 mutalisks and oneshotted buildings.
Not to mention stacking mutalisk was a bug and it looks stupid.
|
lol i dont even know what this discussion is going about?
for the last three days i was watching starcraft2 streams with my roommate, as the qualification for the german EPS is up and running and there is the IEM to come in 2 weeks, which will be screened in german television!!! and my roommate istn even into computergames.
sc2 is just the best thing to watch EVER. its better than soccer, friends of mine come by and just keep hanging in front of the monitor because its so great to watch.
sc2 in europe/germany is by now allready bigger thann BW ever was, so personally i dont give a thought about korea. let them do whatever they want - if they feel like they need to stick to some medieval game from before a decade, so shall it be.
meanwhile esports is growing into something serious over here, with the first players like TLO starting to play sc2 fulltime and its going to grow.
oh PS: what nazgul says!
|
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
Some people are angry over broken expectations so they are looking for signs that the whole thing will crash and burn.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
That's not true, why else would they mention SC2 not having good SALES? Not only is it highly underperforming in sales, but it isn't being given much playtime either, given the information. I'm sure that playtime includes the "free beta".
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
Well the statistics cited in the OP are about PC bang playtime, which I assume would include the free beta.
|
On August 04 2010 19:41 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? That's not true, why else would they mention SC2 not having good SALES? Not only is it highly underperforming in sales, but it isn't being given much playtime either, given the information. I'm sure that playtime includes the "free beta".
Remember, everything the newspapers print is the ultimate truth, that's just how it is!
|
On August 04 2010 19:41 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? That's not true, why else would they mention SC2 not having good SALES? Not only is it highly underperforming in sales, but it isn't being given much playtime either, given the information. I'm sure that playtime includes the "free beta".
You can play SC2 at your home for completely free. (Open Beta)
The PCBang next door charges you money for playing there.
Which one do you choose? Nobody but Blizzard has real information on how many are playing it from their homes. This figure is probably huge.
edit: Renamed the thread from sensationalist bullshit to what it actually is.
|
On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
Bro, this is the internet. If the masses aren't panicked or in an uproar about something that means the universe unfolds on itself.
|
I wish two things.
I wish I could read Korean so I could see what the sources say, although I don't doubt what OP says.
And I also wish people would stop being so naive and shallow and arrogant. Why is everyone crying and going "lol sure w/e someone ban this kid". Especially if what he says might be right? I know SC2 isn't for sale in the same sense in Korea as it is here, but he said it was measured by "play time" mainly, which makes perfect sense to me.
|
Korea's approval is not important. I know that sounds ludicrous, but it's time to get over them. There's a big wide world outside of them, and we are embracing and loving SC2.
|
On August 04 2010 19:28 Jaydden wrote:
lol i dont even know what this discussion is going about?
for the last three days i was watching starcraft2 streams with my roommate, as the qualification for the german EPS is up and running and there is the IEM to come in 2 weeks, which will be screened in german television!!! and my roommate istn even into computergames.
sc2 is just the best thing to watch EVER. its better than soccer, friends of mine come by and just keep hanging in front of the monitor because its so great to watch.
sc2 in europe/germany is by now allready bigger thann BW ever was, so personally i dont give a thought about korea. let them do whatever they want - if they feel like they need to stick to some medieval game from before a decade, so shall it be.
meanwhile esports is growing into something serious over here, with the first players like TLO starting to play sc2 fulltime and its going to grow.
oh PS: what nazgul says!
This is so true.
I had a few friends over the other day to show them SC2. I did a few ladder games, and MAN you should've heard them cheer when my blings/slings and mutalisks destroyed my opponents hydralisk. It was SO much fun, and even tho they didn't understand everything (yet), they really enjoyed it way more than i.e football :D
I'm of course hoping that the Koreans will turn to SC2, but it's not a MUST for this game to succeed. It's already very big in Europe and it has just been released. There will be alot of Tourneys and I'm really looking forward to see progamers form this game and make new, cool strats.
Edit: what EximoSua2 said 
|
On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
Of course that there will be commotion. The way SC2 is accepted in Korea is very important for many people. Some will be happy to see SC2 played by the korean massively, other dream about being SC2 progamers in Korea themselves, a lot of people will love to see how the bw gosus can handle SC2.
For me, this is important, because it may mark the end of bw pro-scene. Scene I`ve been following for 7-8 years.
The op is not so much that the game is being sold badly in SK, but more that it is not so open-heartedly accepted by the people who made SC1 almost a mainstream culture.
|
On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about?
If the game is not for sale there, then why not close the topic, since the claims made by the OP are out of palce?
|
On August 04 2010 19:59 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? If the game is not for sale there, then why not close the topic, since the claims made by the OP are out of palce?
there are other things to the article. About PC Bang net game usage statistics, so I don't think this should be closed. but i do think that they are just taking their time switching over, and probably not playing SC2 in PC Bangs as much because of the fact that they can play it for free from their homes. So I still think that these particular statistics are not representative of the actual feelings average koreans have toward the game.
|
On August 04 2010 19:53 EximoSua2 wrote:
Korea's approval is not important. I know that sounds ludicrous, but it's time to get over them. There's a big wide world outside of them, and we are embracing and loving SC2.
it won't be important for the first say 3-4 years
after that it will become more important as the western player pool falls off a cliff to play the latest new thing
broodwar would have been dead a loooong time ago without korea
|
People aren't playing it at PC Bangs because they can play it for free at their homes. PC Bang playtime goes down. StarCraft 2 is played more at home, too bad nobody but Blizzard has access to that data. We can't make any good guesses at how much play time is put in to it before Blizzard releases information.
The game is at open beta and is completely free, yet these "game industry experts" are wondering why people aren't buying it. That's retarded, why would anyone buy a game when they can try it out for free and paying gives them nothing extra?
The article is very misguiding, we have absolutely no information about how much of a success has SC2 been in Korea because we just don't have access to such information. Media being media, such a big fucking surprise.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 19:43 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:41 ArvickHero wrote:On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? That's not true, why else would they mention SC2 not having good SALES? Not only is it highly underperforming in sales, but it isn't being given much playtime either, given the information. I'm sure that playtime includes the "free beta". You can play SC2 at your home for completely free. (Open Beta) The PCBang next door charges you money for playing there. Which one do you choose? Nobody but Blizzard has real information on how many are playing it from their homes. This figure is probably huge. edit: Renamed the thread from sensationalist bullshit to what it actually is.
Actually they have this info up available in Korean websites, how else do you think they have the game popularity rankings? To quote from the Odds and Ends
At homes, according to gamenote.com, Starcraft 2 took a glorious 67th place,compared to the original taking 19th place that day.
I tried to access the website myself, but for some reason the damn page won't load. While this article focuses on the PC Bangs, I'm more than sure its not doing well at all at homes either. Why else do you think Blizzard refuses to show the information? Plus it's fuckin vacation time for Korean students everywhere, so there isn't much excuse for this pathetic showing.
|
On August 04 2010 20:06 Puosu wrote:
People aren't playing it at PC Bangs because they can play it for free at their homes. PC Bang playtime goes down. StarCraft 2 is played more at home, too bad nobody but Blizzard has access to that data. We can't make any good guesses at how much play time is put in to it before Blizzard releases information.
The game is at open beta and is completely free, yet these "game industry experts" are wondering why people aren't buying it. That's retarded, why would anyone buy a game when they can try it out for free and paying gives them nothing extra?
The article is very misguiding, we have absolutely no information about how much of a success has SC2 been in Korea because we just don't have access to such information. Media being media, such a big fucking surprise.
In this case why Blizzard till now havent said anything about how many koreans are playing it on battle.net? If there was a massive ammount of koreans playing the free version, this will be the best advertisement for SC2.
|
Why else do you think Blizzard refuses to show the information?
The 1.8m figure that didn't include Asia came from a third party source. Blizzard is hiding information from everywhere, not only Korea.
How do they measure home usage? Is it based on copies sold?
There's really no way every computer has malware on it tracking game usage, you know
|
On August 04 2010 20:13 Puosu wrote:The 1.8m figure that didn't include Asia came from a third party source. Blizzard is hiding information from everywhere, not only Korea. How do they measure home usage? Is it based on copies sold? There's really no way every computer has malware on it tracking game usage, you know
There is no need to to install malware, I think it will be much easier if Blizzard count the numbers of CD keys used from SK, you know.
|
10387 Posts
On August 04 2010 20:13 Puosu wrote:The 1.8m figure that didn't include Asia came from a third party source. Blizzard is hiding information from everywhere, not only Korea. How do they measure home usage? Is it based on copies sold? There's really no way every computer has malware on it tracking game usage, you know
They monitor networking traffic, how else do you think they got that statistic about SC2 ranking so low at HOMES. Your argument about only Blizzard having this info is utter bullshit.
Personally, I think you should've just deleted the first line of the OP instead of changing the title
|
As Nazgul and others have pointed out, the Open Beta is still running in Korea, so it's quite simple to understand why they're not paying to play it in bangs.
On top of that, this is basically an update to their national sport, and that will take time to catch on. IdrA, Tester, etc, they are leading the way by embracing SC2 so early, and every tournament that is run will have more of their fans flocking to SC2. The fans play what their idol plays, and most are still in SC1. This is unsurprising. If football 2.0 came out in the U.S., would all the NFL players immediately switch over? Hell no. You'd have a few teams looking taking the opportunity to stake out their territory in the new area, and the rest would adopt a slower wait-and-see stance. This is exactly what is happening over in Korea. I would be unsurprised if a lot of the pros plan to switch over, but not until both expansions are out.
Just think about it. When Flash switches over, that's a huge flood of new players right there. Same for Jaedong, etc. As long as they stay with SC1, their fans will as well.
|
On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:
people realize what a bad game it really is.
...... could these people please stop their vendetta -,-' its getting really old
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
Guys! I love you guys cause half of you think Koreans don't like SC2 and we suck, the other half think it we don't like it because it sucks and there are the few who know its environmental reasons.
So I bought it, online, took me like 45 mins to download with 1.5 mb/sec and yeah it's not much for me, but its quite a price jump from before at about 60 USD equivalent (just an estimate). Did I want a box set? Hell ya, did I know where to get one immediately? Um no, I mean they freaking sell SCBW in the 7-11's before or in the E-mart or whatever! So, screw it, I downloaded it, and I load it up and get a big old ' THERE ARE 2 VERSIONS, THE 12 YEAR & PLUS 18 YEAR OLD (yes its in the Korean equivalent of CAPS) PLAY THE RIGHT ONE.
So anyway, when I registered, there were like 3 payment plans, a $2 one, I guess for 24hours, (I forgot) $10 for a week or some crap and the $60 dollar one for unlimited. So if you're at the internet cafe, you're gonna pay $2 for the game, and the PC cafe costs $1 dollar per hour and you're gonna play with your friends for like maybe 2-3 hours or you are there for a hour for lunch, and you can't set up a LAN? or a freaking Icehunters etc, yes, I know you can do it all via battlenet, but why bother? For now anyways.
I don't the average Korean is gonna say SC2 sucks, its just that its not familiar yet and DAMN IT SCBW is fun. But I think with Blizzard Korea and Blizzard trying to control everything and the issue with E-Sports & KESPA, its like people know that SC2 is out, but its like they don't know either.
FOR INSTANCE: SC2 should have been in every major paper in Korea for the last week, how Korea is going to own the international gaming scene and its the second coming of a new e-sports age, etc. But there isn't, its just these articles about how Mom's want to buy a box set for their kids and the sales are disappointing.
BECAUSE: If Blizzard really was going to launch in Korea, it should have been a fucking 1 month celebration in Korea with the history of SCBW on tv etc, and all the pro teams giving their feedback and interviews with celebrities saying how much SC2 will bring out there inner gamer again. But that didnt' happen because of politics with KESPA but also Blizzards stance on the entire 'content for SC2' (I'm not going to get into that issue here), but after Aug, I'm sure a lot of things will change, because that is the ultra deadline for KESPA when Gomtech takes over everything. There are ALOT of sponsors waiting in the wings, my juniors run the OBS team and they ask me for business advice and they are getting swamped right now. So my freaking point is:
SC2 will rock all of Korea, but not right now, maybe in like 4 months after the leagues get set-up. Keep in mind that SCBW is a mainstream activity in Korea like baseball, and if you were launch a new MLB or NFL, trust me, it would have been a lot more marketing, the marketing in Korea was huge, dont' get me wrong, but not SCBW huge (ie. TV commercials, new articles, celebrity endorsements, talk shows, etc). Also, Blizzard are really doing things their way, opposed to simply just trying to sell stuff in Korea. Obviously Blizzard knows how important Korea is, and they don't want to make a mistake here. And for all you guys out there who say, 'who needs Korea'; ok, I know you guys are passionate, but 1. we don't hate sc2, 2. we aren't set in our traditional ways playing scbw and 3. well you name me one country in the world that games are a mainstream past time and specifically SCBW? You go to an esports event outside of Korea, and look at the fans, and you look at them in Korea. And yes, I speak for all of Korea and yes E-sports and SC2 needs Korea and Korea will love SC2 ( in 4 months ^^).
|
On August 04 2010 20:06 Puosu wrote:
People aren't playing it at PC Bangs because they can play it for free at their homes. PC Bang playtime goes down. StarCraft 2 is played more at home, too bad nobody but Blizzard has access to that data.
You know you can play iccup broodwar for free from home too? ... still it's a lot played in PC bangs
|
On August 04 2010 20:16 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 20:13 Puosu wrote:Why else do you think Blizzard refuses to show the information? The 1.8m figure that didn't include Asia came from a third party source. Blizzard is hiding information from everywhere, not only Korea. How do they measure home usage? Is it based on copies sold? There's really no way every computer has malware on it tracking game usage, you know They monitor networking traffic, how else do you think they got that statistic about SC2 ranking so low at HOMES. Your argument about only Blizzard having this info is utter bullshit. Personally, I think you should've just deleted the first line of the OP instead of changing the title
I didn't know it was legal to monitor network usage like that, however I guess people can just log in to battle.net and see the amount of people online there as well. If someone here has access to the Korean server we could do some calculations of our own to see how the amount of players compares.
I believe it's too early to say if it's a failure in the whole Korea thus I changed the title to something else, it will take it's time as BW is so huge and it makes sense for them to be slow in the switch.
On August 04 2010 20:38 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 20:06 Puosu wrote:
People aren't playing it at PC Bangs because they can play it for free at their homes. PC Bang playtime goes down. StarCraft 2 is played more at home, too bad nobody but Blizzard has access to that data. You know you can play iccup broodwar for free from home too? ... still it's a lot played in PC bangs
Yes, illegally. I would still think that there's more people willing to play a game for free when its marketed as such and not go through pirating etc.
edit: MightyAtom, thanks for posting that. Really appreciate information coming from you.
|
SC2 seem more and more to go the same fate as Counter Strike Source, and the problem is this:
IF sc2 fails, Blizzard-Activision have already killed off Kespa, OSL and MSL, so both games will die if SC2 fails. Personally I am starting to get bored, but we can hope they fix the glaring issues with the game before the mainstreamers leave it, then maybe.
|
On August 04 2010 20:48 HowardRoark wrote:
SC2 seem more and more to go the same fate as Counter Strike Source, and the problem is this:
IF sc2 fails, Blizzard-Activision have already killed off Kespa, OSL and MSL, so both games will die if SC2 fails. Personally I am starting to get bored, but we can hope they fix the glaring issues with the game before the mainstreamers leave it, then maybe.
Kespa, OSL and MSL didn't get killed, seems like you misunderstood something..
Anyone who thinks superstars like Flash will switch anytime in the next 1-2 years is insane, there's not enough money in sc2 yet.
|
On August 04 2010 19:53 EximoSua2 wrote:
Korea's approval is not important. I know that sounds ludicrous, but it's time to get over them. There's a big wide world outside of them, and we are embracing and loving SC2.
good luck creating a steady esport scene without korea or kespa to survive 10 years tt
im pretty sure korea is gonna switch over, i think its the biggest thing going on there right now and everyone is talking about it. as soon as more progamers will switch then i think it will explode :p
also when the game is still free over there maybe more ppl stay at home and play, i dunno. it seems like statistics wont say alot until it costs money like over here
|
On August 04 2010 19:59 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? If the game is not for sale there, then why not close the topic, since the claims made by the OP are out of palce?
This is definitely a borderline topic that may get closed sooner or later. The reason why it's open is because sources discuss the use of SC2 in PCBangs and speculate on the success of SC2.
|
The evolving situation is just fun to watch. Even more fun would be if SC 2 really fails. Not to sound like a hater, but i don't like how SC 2 works and i really think Blizzard/Activision was too dull to the SCBW and they should pay for it. Basically you want to create a sequel to the best e-sports game ever, so you take it, remove all the best things that made it what it is it and make it so my mother can play it - that is not how things should be done. I just look forward and am curious how everything will evolve.
|
Who cares about Korea? They may be good at RTS's but that doesn't mean that their opinion on the game is any more important than anyone else.
|
We have limited information but it's still a very hot topic and people want to discuss, I think it's best to keep it contained in a single thread instead of let people think they are dropping some revelations when I go into every thread citing that "Korea hates SC2!!"
I think what has been the worst from a PR perspective is the way they essentially chose to go to war with Kespa. Even if they were justified in doing so, so was the RIAA etc for their music piracy shit. It doesn't mean it will be popular with Korean's when every day there's news about Blizzard stepping in and trying to dictate how things work when they have showed no significant interest in the proliferation of e-sports in Korea. I'm sure there's a lot of people who feel like they laid the groundwork and now Blizzard is trying to shoulder their way in, and that attitude gets reflected in news articles and whatnot.
|
Korea and China are Blizzard's biggest markets. There are a lot of variables in play: KeSPA v.s. Activision-Blizzard, pricing strategy amongst other things. I think more people should read what Waxy said. Right now, SC2 is in fact not doing so hot in Korea, but we shouldn't cry wolf yet because it is way to early lmao. Of course the media is going to be all over it there.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 04 2010 21:38 verrater wrote:
Who cares about Korea? They may be good at RTS's but that doesn't mean that their opinion on the game is any more important than anyone else.
You know of any other country where SCBW is a mainstream daily televised event with 2 dedicated channels and the national airline as a major sponsor?
|
Oh god how did TL go so wrong so quick. This is Shoryuken.com all over again...
|
I think this pretty much ends the thread...
+ Show Spoiler +
Guys! I love you guys cause half of you think Koreans don't like SC2 and we suck, the other half think it we don't like it because it sucks and there are the few who know its environmental reasons.
So I bought it, online, took me like 45 mins to download with 1.5 mb/sec and yeah it's not much for me, but its quite a price jump from before at about 60 USD equivalent (just an estimate). Did I want a box set? Hell ya, did I know where to get one immediately? Um no, I mean they freaking sell SCBW in the 7-11's before or in the E-mart or whatever! So, screw it, I downloaded it, and I load it up and get a big old ' THERE ARE 2 VERSIONS, THE 12 YEAR & PLUS 18 YEAR OLD (yes its in the Korean equivalent of CAPS) PLAY THE RIGHT ONE.
So anyway, when I registered, there were like 3 payment plans, a $2 one, I guess for 24hours, (I forgot) $10 for a week or some crap and the $60 dollar one for unlimited. So if you're at the internet cafe, you're gonna pay $2 for the game, and the PC cafe costs $1 dollar per hour and you're gonna play with your friends for like maybe 2-3 hours or you are there for a hour for lunch, and you can't set up a LAN? or a freaking Icehunters etc, yes, I know you can do it all via battlenet, but why bother? For now anyways.
I don't the average Korean is gonna say SC2 sucks, its just that its not familiar yet and DAMN IT SCBW is fun. But I think with Blizzard Korea and Blizzard trying to control everything and the issue with E-Sports & KESPA, its like people know that SC2 is out, but its like they don't know either.
FOR INSTANCE: SC2 should have been in every major paper in Korea for the last week, how Korea is going to own the international gaming scene and its the second coming of a new e-sports age, etc. But there isn't, its just these articles about how Mom's want to buy a box set for their kids and the sales are disappointing.
BECAUSE: If Blizzard really was going to launch in Korea, it should have been a fucking 1 month celebration in Korea with the history of SCBW on tv etc, and all the pro teams giving their feedback and interviews with celebrities saying how much SC2 will bring out there inner gamer again. But that didnt' happen because of politics with KESPA but also Blizzards stance on the entire 'content for SC2' (I'm not going to get into that issue here), but after Aug, I'm sure a lot of things will change, because that is the ultra deadline for KESPA when Gomtech takes over everything. There are ALOT of sponsors waiting in the wings, my juniors run the OBS team and they ask me for business advice and they are getting swamped right now. So my freaking point is:
SC2 will rock all of Korea, but not right now, maybe in like 4 months after the leagues get set-up. Keep in mind that SCBW is a mainstream activity in Korea like baseball, and if you were launch a new MLB or NFL, trust me, it would have been a lot more marketing, the marketing in Korea was huge, dont' get me wrong, but not SCBW huge (ie. TV commercials, new articles, celebrity endorsements, talk shows, etc). Also, Blizzard are really doing things their way, opposed to simply just trying to sell stuff in Korea. Obviously Blizzard knows how important Korea is, and they don't want to make a mistake here. And for all you guys out there who say, 'who needs Korea'; ok, I know you guys are passionate, but 1. we don't hate sc2, 2. we aren't set in our traditional ways playing scbw and 3. well you name me one country in the world that games are a mainstream past time and specifically SCBW? You go to an esports event outside of Korea, and look at the fans, and you look at them in Korea. And yes, I speak for all of Korea and yes E-sports and SC2 needs Korea and Korea will love SC2 ( in 4 months ^^).
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
This too shall pass...eventually...in like a year....I hope.
|
Do my eyes deceive me or I see Koreans talking in English here?
lol
|
Sad news but yeah I want to see the figures after the free open beta for them ends. Kinda silly to buy the game or play it on pcbang when you can do it at home too.
|
On August 04 2010 21:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 19:59 Apolo wrote:On August 04 2010 19:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
SC2 is not for sale in Korea yet (at least people aren't buying it while the free Beta is still there) what is all this commotion about? If the game is not for sale there, then why not close the topic, since the claims made by the OP are out of palce? This is definitely a borderline topic that may get closed sooner or later. The reason why it's open is because sources discuss the use of SC2 in PCBangs and speculate on the success of SC2.
LOL!!! Just close it for god sake......... Juck acc??? seriously??? comon....
|
On August 04 2010 20:29 MightyAtom wrote:
Guys! I love you guys cause half of you think Koreans don't like SC2 and we suck, the other half think it we don't like it because it sucks and there are the few who know its environmental reasons.
So I bought it, online, took me like 45 mins to download with 1.5 mb/sec and yeah it's not much for me, but its quite a price jump from before at about 60 USD equivalent (just an estimate). Did I want a box set? Hell ya, did I know where to get one immediately? Um no, I mean they freaking sell SCBW in the 7-11's before or in the E-mart or whatever! So, screw it, I downloaded it, and I load it up and get a big old ' THERE ARE 2 VERSIONS, THE 12 YEAR & PLUS 18 YEAR OLD (yes its in the Korean equivalent of CAPS) PLAY THE RIGHT ONE.
So anyway, when I registered, there were like 3 payment plans, a $2 one, I guess for 24hours, (I forgot) $10 for a week or some crap and the $60 dollar one for unlimited. So if you're at the internet cafe, you're gonna pay $2 for the game, and the PC cafe costs $1 dollar per hour and you're gonna play with your friends for like maybe 2-3 hours or you are there for a hour for lunch, and you can't set up a LAN? or a freaking Icehunters etc, yes, I know you can do it all via battlenet, but why bother? For now anyways.
I don't the average Korean is gonna say SC2 sucks, its just that its not familiar yet and DAMN IT SCBW is fun. But I think with Blizzard Korea and Blizzard trying to control everything and the issue with E-Sports & KESPA, its like people know that SC2 is out, but its like they don't know either.
FOR INSTANCE: SC2 should have been in every major paper in Korea for the last week, how Korea is going to own the international gaming scene and its the second coming of a new e-sports age, etc. But there isn't, its just these articles about how Mom's want to buy a box set for their kids and the sales are disappointing.
BECAUSE: If Blizzard really was going to launch in Korea, it should have been a fucking 1 month celebration in Korea with the history of SCBW on tv etc, and all the pro teams giving their feedback and interviews with celebrities saying how much SC2 will bring out there inner gamer again. But that didnt' happen because of politics with KESPA but also Blizzards stance on the entire 'content for SC2' (I'm not going to get into that issue here), but after Aug, I'm sure a lot of things will change, because that is the ultra deadline for KESPA when Gomtech takes over everything. There are ALOT of sponsors waiting in the wings, my juniors run the OBS team and they ask me for business advice and they are getting swamped right now. So my freaking point is:
SC2 will rock all of Korea, but not right now, maybe in like 4 months after the leagues get set-up. Keep in mind that SCBW is a mainstream activity in Korea like baseball, and if you were launch a new MLB or NFL, trust me, it would have been a lot more marketing, the marketing in Korea was huge, dont' get me wrong, but not SCBW huge (ie. TV commercials, new articles, celebrity endorsements, talk shows, etc). Also, Blizzard are really doing things their way, opposed to simply just trying to sell stuff in Korea. Obviously Blizzard knows how important Korea is, and they don't want to make a mistake here. And for all you guys out there who say, 'who needs Korea'; ok, I know you guys are passionate, but 1. we don't hate sc2, 2. we aren't set in our traditional ways playing scbw and 3. well you name me one country in the world that games are a mainstream past time and specifically SCBW? You go to an esports event outside of Korea, and look at the fans, and you look at them in Korea. And yes, I speak for all of Korea and yes E-sports and SC2 needs Korea and Korea will love SC2 ( in 4 months ^^).
thanks for your post. it's good to know what is happening in korea from koreans.
of course we need korea!
but I have a question: is there any chance that people from KESPA, OSL and MSL decides to not make tournaments for SC2? I'm afraid they could just ignore SC2 since BW is still a success and progammers may dislike it.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 04 2010 22:35 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 20:29 MightyAtom wrote:
Guys! I love you guys cause half of you think Koreans don't like SC2 and we suck, the other half think it we don't like it because it sucks and there are the few who know its environmental reasons.
So I bought it, online, took me like 45 mins to download with 1.5 mb/sec and yeah it's not much for me, but its quite a price jump from before at about 60 USD equivalent (just an estimate). Did I want a box set? Hell ya, did I know where to get one immediately? Um no, I mean they freaking sell SCBW in the 7-11's before or in the E-mart or whatever! So, screw it, I downloaded it, and I load it up and get a big old ' THERE ARE 2 VERSIONS, THE 12 YEAR & PLUS 18 YEAR OLD (yes its in the Korean equivalent of CAPS) PLAY THE RIGHT ONE.
So anyway, when I registered, there were like 3 payment plans, a $2 one, I guess for 24hours, (I forgot) $10 for a week or some crap and the $60 dollar one for unlimited. So if you're at the internet cafe, you're gonna pay $2 for the game, and the PC cafe costs $1 dollar per hour and you're gonna play with your friends for like maybe 2-3 hours or you are there for a hour for lunch, and you can't set up a LAN? or a freaking Icehunters etc, yes, I know you can do it all via battlenet, but why bother? For now anyways.
I don't the average Korean is gonna say SC2 sucks, its just that its not familiar yet and DAMN IT SCBW is fun. But I think with Blizzard Korea and Blizzard trying to control everything and the issue with E-Sports & KESPA, its like people know that SC2 is out, but its like they don't know either.
FOR INSTANCE: SC2 should have been in every major paper in Korea for the last week, how Korea is going to own the international gaming scene and its the second coming of a new e-sports age, etc. But there isn't, its just these articles about how Mom's want to buy a box set for their kids and the sales are disappointing.
BECAUSE: If Blizzard really was going to launch in Korea, it should have been a fucking 1 month celebration in Korea with the history of SCBW on tv etc, and all the pro teams giving their feedback and interviews with celebrities saying how much SC2 will bring out there inner gamer again. But that didnt' happen because of politics with KESPA but also Blizzards stance on the entire 'content for SC2' (I'm not going to get into that issue here), but after Aug, I'm sure a lot of things will change, because that is the ultra deadline for KESPA when Gomtech takes over everything. There are ALOT of sponsors waiting in the wings, my juniors run the OBS team and they ask me for business advice and they are getting swamped right now. So my freaking point is:
SC2 will rock all of Korea, but not right now, maybe in like 4 months after the leagues get set-up. Keep in mind that SCBW is a mainstream activity in Korea like baseball, and if you were launch a new MLB or NFL, trust me, it would have been a lot more marketing, the marketing in Korea was huge, dont' get me wrong, but not SCBW huge (ie. TV commercials, new articles, celebrity endorsements, talk shows, etc). Also, Blizzard are really doing things their way, opposed to simply just trying to sell stuff in Korea. Obviously Blizzard knows how important Korea is, and they don't want to make a mistake here. And for all you guys out there who say, 'who needs Korea'; ok, I know you guys are passionate, but 1. we don't hate sc2, 2. we aren't set in our traditional ways playing scbw and 3. well you name me one country in the world that games are a mainstream past time and specifically SCBW? You go to an esports event outside of Korea, and look at the fans, and you look at them in Korea. And yes, I speak for all of Korea and yes E-sports and SC2 needs Korea and Korea will love SC2 ( in 4 months ^^).
thanks for your post. it's good to know what is happening in korea from koreans. of course we need korea! but I have a question: is there any chance that people from KESPA, OSL and MSL decides to not make tournaments for SC2? I'm afraid they could just ignore SC2 since BW is still a success and progammers may dislike it.
It's not possible for them to continue whatsoever unless they come to an agreement with Gomtech (GomTV- where tasteless broadcasts for) which they haven't so by Aug, the gotta stop everything related to even SCBW. But I haven't hear anything crazy yet, but KESPA doesn't then there will be legal trouble and its gonna be who blinks first. At this point, Gomtech has all the rights and Aug was a deadline they gave to KESPA cause they couldnt' come to any agreement. Now, if the license was split into 2: SCBW and SC2, then it would be possible that there would be a huge fight between the two games with SCBW likely keeping SC2 out for at least 2 years; but in the case where KESPA was still presiding over everything when WC3 came out, the SCBW teams were just getting their footing and they purposely put pressure on KESPA not to designate WC3 pros as pro-gamers (I think it happened eventually) but the pressure to just focus on SCBW did put enough pressure on WC3 to be considered an e-sports failure (although it had gained momentum with many televised matches included matches played by Elky - my favorite by Elky with DH got kill by creeps lol).
Obviously GomTV is going to just push SC2, I'm sure its part of the reason why they were tapped to get the license. But, I know some blizzard Korea managers troll these forums, so only they can really say how they will handle things if KESPA persists. But after Aug, GomTech should come out with some killer content and big sponsored leagues, but again, SCBW, KESPA forbade any play or copies of SC2 for any of the pro gaming teams or for it to be in their practice computers in their training homes...so the Koreans who are really good now are either ex-pro-gamers or some real independents/up-and-comers who have focused their potential on SC2 rather than continuing with SCBW for the last few months during the beta period.
Regardless if ProGamers don't like it, I don't that will be a main issue; I don't think Koreans we generally think like that. If the game is enjoyable, the sponsored behind it, then on a practical point of view, its only common sense to move on. What I've hear from the ex-pro-gamers who started to play it, was that it was a totally different game (in terms of play/strategy) initially, but with sequential patches during the beta, it played a bit more like SCBW, but that they are really really enjoying it now. I think the biggest shock is that in Korea, we don't look at SCBW as a 12 year old game, it simply is e-sports, but after you play SC2, and then go and play SCBW, just by graphics alone, you're like omg, 12 years really has gone by. But to just to say, SCBW will always be legendary in Korea and a part of our modern history (crazy eh!!!) I don't care if there is SC9, SCBW will always hold its own place, but again, I am sure that the love for SCBW will carry over to SC2 in a short time. ^^
|
Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea.
It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter?
I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it.
Don't be scared or emasculated
|
On August 04 2010 14:58 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is. August 2, 2010. According to Gametrix, an internet cafe research service, SC2 posted 12th in playtime with only 2.6%. The playtime metric is used to ascertain game popularity. Released on the 27th last month, SC2 posted a dismal 20th in internet cafe playtime but was expected to climb much higher on the weekend, with hopes that old-time starcraft fans would feel nostalgic and rush out to play SC2. But, on the 31st of last month, the first saturday after release, playtime was at a meager 2.49% (12th). Although the numbers continued to rally to peak at 2.6%, it failed to reach a critical level. This is in stark contrast with SC1, which kept its popularity, hanging on to the 6th spot. Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not. Taking into account the huge advertisement campaign and the success of the previous installment, the results were somewhat dissappointing. To add further concern, this period coincided with school holidays, a period considered the one of the golden peaks of gaming. So the question remains, where has all the interest gone? But, what about outright sales you ask? Surely, sales must be going through the roof since SC2 is such a great game. Unfortunately, SC2 is not even in the top10 games sold in korea. Dissappointingly, Blizzard's new game Starcraft 2 is struggling even in retail channels. With expectations that SC2 would enjoy a second wind in sales at the beginning of August now thoroughly crushed, some are cautiously predicting SC2 will turn out to be Blizzard's black sheep. One industry expert said: "SC2 should have entered the top games list if it were to become a big success, but it failed. Even after organizing huge sales events where lots of freebies were handed out, SC2 is not even in the top10 of most purchased games. I think this is due to the marketing, it targeted the wrong audience, but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one." Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues, EDITED with sources: 한국경제다음증권더게임스 Brood War is massive in Korea. Anyone who thought the change would come quickly is unbelievably foolish. Korea will resist the change for a long time because it's simply a radical change that isn't easy. Doesn't matter what the game was, it would be true with any two games. brood war is also massive among the veteran population of TeamLiquid. i'd say the "radical" change came rather quick, wouldn't you. despite the outrage and backlash TL exhibited against blizzard/activision, the members were still curious as what happened in the story and were willing to shell out $60 to get the game. it wouldn't have been too far a stretch to extrapolate what happened in TL to the rest of korea but obviously something went very very wrong.
No, it would've been an incredibly far stretch. Comparing TL to Korea is absolutely ridiculous. First, a lot (if not the majority) of SC2 fans here are newcomers to the sight. Second, in Korea BW is a career. People make money off of it. The infrastructure of an entire business is set up to support BW. Comparing TL to that is completely out of line.
|
lol overeacting much, sc2 will have a really long shelf life cos of its expansions. dont forget most of the developed world is dead broke and lending costs are still silly high. its no wonder that lots of small businesses arent putting up the money for new games.
|
Im currently living in Korea and playing sc2 in pc bang almost everyday, and unfortunately I can only says that what the op says seems right, there is really a minority of guys playing sc2 in pc bang, lot of times im the only one playing sc2. They mainly play unknown (to me) mmorpg or wow, fps and starcraft 1.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated
Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^
|
Didn't expect SCII to become insta-popular in Korea... once they stop hosting SC:BW events and many progamers start getting involved in SCII instead, people will start to buy / play SCII.
|
Yeah sounds like until the pro-league infrastructure is designed for SC2, there won't be that "shift" just yet. And if "wheels of change" dont' even start until end of August, at the earliest, and more likely a few to several months for marketing/TV/etc. to even catch up.
I'll reserve judgment until then, but yeah it should be fine.
|
On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^
No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well.
|
On August 04 2010 22:57 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 22:35 ilbh wrote:On August 04 2010 20:29 MightyAtom wrote:
Guys! I love you guys cause half of you think Koreans don't like SC2 and we suck, the other half think it we don't like it because it sucks and there are the few who know its environmental reasons.
So I bought it, online, took me like 45 mins to download with 1.5 mb/sec and yeah it's not much for me, but its quite a price jump from before at about 60 USD equivalent (just an estimate). Did I want a box set? Hell ya, did I know where to get one immediately? Um no, I mean they freaking sell SCBW in the 7-11's before or in the E-mart or whatever! So, screw it, I downloaded it, and I load it up and get a big old ' THERE ARE 2 VERSIONS, THE 12 YEAR & PLUS 18 YEAR OLD (yes its in the Korean equivalent of CAPS) PLAY THE RIGHT ONE.
So anyway, when I registered, there were like 3 payment plans, a $2 one, I guess for 24hours, (I forgot) $10 for a week or some crap and the $60 dollar one for unlimited. So if you're at the internet cafe, you're gonna pay $2 for the game, and the PC cafe costs $1 dollar per hour and you're gonna play with your friends for like maybe 2-3 hours or you are there for a hour for lunch, and you can't set up a LAN? or a freaking Icehunters etc, yes, I know you can do it all via battlenet, but why bother? For now anyways.
I don't the average Korean is gonna say SC2 sucks, its just that its not familiar yet and DAMN IT SCBW is fun. But I think with Blizzard Korea and Blizzard trying to control everything and the issue with E-Sports & KESPA, its like people know that SC2 is out, but its like they don't know either.
FOR INSTANCE: SC2 should have been in every major paper in Korea for the last week, how Korea is going to own the international gaming scene and its the second coming of a new e-sports age, etc. But there isn't, its just these articles about how Mom's want to buy a box set for their kids and the sales are disappointing.
BECAUSE: If Blizzard really was going to launch in Korea, it should have been a fucking 1 month celebration in Korea with the history of SCBW on tv etc, and all the pro teams giving their feedback and interviews with celebrities saying how much SC2 will bring out there inner gamer again. But that didnt' happen because of politics with KESPA but also Blizzards stance on the entire 'content for SC2' (I'm not going to get into that issue here), but after Aug, I'm sure a lot of things will change, because that is the ultra deadline for KESPA when Gomtech takes over everything. There are ALOT of sponsors waiting in the wings, my juniors run the OBS team and they ask me for business advice and they are getting swamped right now. So my freaking point is:
SC2 will rock all of Korea, but not right now, maybe in like 4 months after the leagues get set-up. Keep in mind that SCBW is a mainstream activity in Korea like baseball, and if you were launch a new MLB or NFL, trust me, it would have been a lot more marketing, the marketing in Korea was huge, dont' get me wrong, but not SCBW huge (ie. TV commercials, new articles, celebrity endorsements, talk shows, etc). Also, Blizzard are really doing things their way, opposed to simply just trying to sell stuff in Korea. Obviously Blizzard knows how important Korea is, and they don't want to make a mistake here. And for all you guys out there who say, 'who needs Korea'; ok, I know you guys are passionate, but 1. we don't hate sc2, 2. we aren't set in our traditional ways playing scbw and 3. well you name me one country in the world that games are a mainstream past time and specifically SCBW? You go to an esports event outside of Korea, and look at the fans, and you look at them in Korea. And yes, I speak for all of Korea and yes E-sports and SC2 needs Korea and Korea will love SC2 ( in 4 months ^^).
thanks for your post. it's good to know what is happening in korea from koreans. of course we need korea! but I have a question: is there any chance that people from KESPA, OSL and MSL decides to not make tournaments for SC2? I'm afraid they could just ignore SC2 since BW is still a success and progammers may dislike it. It's not possible for them to continue whatsoever unless they come to an agreement with Gomtech (GomTV- where tasteless broadcasts for) which they haven't so by Aug, the gotta stop everything related to even SCBW. But I haven't hear anything crazy yet, but KESPA doesn't then there will be legal trouble and its gonna be who blinks first. At this point, Gomtech has all the rights and Aug was a deadline they gave to KESPA cause they couldnt' come to any agreement. Now, if the license was split into 2: SCBW and SC2, then it would be possible that there would be a huge fight between the two games with SCBW likely keeping SC2 out for at least 2 years; but in the case where KESPA was still presiding over everything when WC3 came out, the SCBW teams were just getting their footing and they purposely put pressure on KESPA not to designate WC3 pros as pro-gamers (I think it happened eventually) but the pressure to just focus on SCBW did put enough pressure on WC3 to be considered an e-sports failure (although it had gained momentum with many televised matches included matches played by Elky - my favorite by Elky with DH got kill by creeps lol). Obviously GomTV is going to just push SC2, I'm sure its part of the reason why they were tapped to get the license. But, I know some blizzard Korea managers troll these forums, so only they can really say how they will handle things if KESPA persists. But after Aug, GomTech should come out with some killer content and big sponsored leagues, but again, SCBW, KESPA forbade any play or copies of SC2 for any of the pro gaming teams or for it to be in their practice computers in their training homes...so the Koreans who are really good now are either ex-pro-gamers or some real independents/up-and-comers who have focused their potential on SC2 rather than continuing with SCBW for the last few months during the beta period. Regardless if ProGamers don't like it, I don't that will be a main issue; I don't think Koreans we generally think like that. If the game is enjoyable, the sponsored behind it, then on a practical point of view, its only common sense to move on. What I've hear from the ex-pro-gamers who started to play it, was that it was a totally different game (in terms of play/strategy) initially, but with sequential patches during the beta, it played a bit more like SCBW, but that they are really really enjoying it now. I think the biggest shock is that in Korea, we don't look at SCBW as a 12 year old game, it simply is e-sports, but after you play SC2, and then go and play SCBW, just by graphics alone, you're like omg, 12 years really has gone by. But to just to say, SCBW will always be legendary in Korea and a part of our modern history (crazy eh!!!) I don't care if there is SC9, SCBW will always hold its own place, but again, I am sure that the love for SCBW will carry over to SC2 in a short time. ^^
Thanks for the insight, MightyAtom - much appreciate that!
|
On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well.
This is very true. We learned that esports success in Korea does not translate to esports success elsewhere. Korea embracing SC2 does not mean that the rest of the world will as well(just like BW). The rest of the world will have to embrace SC2 on its merits as a game alone.
|
Woho!! Sc2 going to hell !
That's what you get blizzard when you betray everything that was good about BW
cheers mate 
|
seems like it would have been a smarter move by blizzard to try and get the kespa people behind SC2 instead of trying to force them into a direction they might well have gone anyway with the right incentive...
|
On August 04 2010 20:16 BillyMole wrote:
As Nazgul and others have pointed out, the Open Beta is still running in Korea, so it's quite simple to understand why they're not paying to play it in bangs.
On top of that, this is basically an update to their national sport, and that will take time to catch on. IdrA, Tester, etc, they are leading the way by embracing SC2 so early, and every tournament that is run will have more of their fans flocking to SC2. The fans play what their idol plays, and most are still in SC1. This is unsurprising. If football 2.0 came out in the U.S., would all the NFL players immediately switch over? Hell no. You'd have a few teams looking taking the opportunity to stake out their territory in the new area, and the rest would adopt a slower wait-and-see stance. This is exactly what is happening over in Korea. I would be unsurprised if a lot of the pros plan to switch over, but not until both expansions are out.
Just think about it. When Flash switches over, that's a huge flood of new players right there. Same for Jaedong, etc. As long as they stay with SC1, their fans will as well.
Lol, Football 2.0 already came out and died in after one season. But I get you'r point. To tell the truth, It's not like I am saying screw Korea but if they don't hop on to SC2 anytime soon I really don't care because we already have our own pro scene coming up with pretty big sponsors, it is only going to get BIGGER in the West. I think it's pathetic that people are waiting for Korea to say the game is great before it is supposedly a "good game". It's a great game, period and Korea will play it soon enough once all the drama subsides so everyone enoy SC2 and stop worrying.
|
On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:
Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^
Correction: I've already fallen in love with the game, I don't need another entity or institution to determine what I like. So long as everyone else has that notion in mind, this game will always have a place somewheres, whether it be amateur or professional. I think I can be satisfied with HDH invitational-level gaming: relatively low-budget, but the quality is there, and easily accessible for spectating.
Besides, I'm 26 with a short attention span and a wife -- I don't think I'm e-sport material .
|
Maybe you should realise that your naive ideas about which game is "better" don't really matter to sc2's success as an e-sport. There is now so much money involved in the game that it simply does not boil down to that. Just think that recently blizzard had a major disagreement with kespa. Don't you think kespa has the power to pull the strings in korea and try to taint the image of the game? And every article and game review in major media is far from being independent and representative of just the writer's opinion, there are big companies with agendas behind them. And for such big names as starcraft and blizzard-activision there are a lot of agendas to go around.
|
SC1 is so ingrained in the culture of Korea, this really comes as no surprise. It will take a while before a lot of people start switching over. Statistics 6 days after release can hardly speak for the success of a game 5 or even 10 years down the road.
On August 04 2010 23:32 DorF wrote:Woho!! Sc2 going to hell ! That's what you get blizzard when you betray everything that was good about BW cheers mate
On a side note, posts like this annoy the hell out of me. If you like BW more, then play it. No one is stopping you, or making you play SC2. There's really no reason to advertise your elitist fanboyism here.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well.
I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened.
It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors;
Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2,
if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long,
if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond,
if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers,
if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities,
and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors.
A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship.
No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is.
What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of.
Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way)
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 04 2010 23:41 mitsoz wrote:
Maybe you should realise that your naive ideas about which game is "better" don't really matter to sc2's success as an e-sport. There is now so much money involved in the game that it simply does not boil down to that. Just think that recently blizzard had a major disagreement with kespa. Don't you think kespa has the power to pull the strings in korea and try to taint the image of the game? And every article and game review in major media is far from being independent and representative of just the writer's opinion, there are big companies with agendas behind them. And for such big names as starcraft and blizzard-activision there are a lot of agendas to go around.
With this quote from someone who understands the overall picture of what is going on and since I
just read the other responses given, when I was typing.
LOL
I GIVE UP, you guys win,
I'm not trying to tell you that you need Korea to love SC2, or that Korea is the be end and end all of SC2, just trying to explain the more complexities here and the significance for e-sports and why there is the emphasis is here. I'm Korean, I'm not trying to brain wash you! Believe what you want and don't come to my country to watch SC2 professional games live, go watch it your own country or on VOD!!!! I'm gonna track your IP numbers and report them to the national cyber police to let immigration know not to let anyone in from your entire IP area and you're now all responsible for denying your close friends and family from experience the beauty and corporate excess of e-sports in Korea.. ^^ but seriously
I GIVE UP. you guys win.
|
I find it REALLY difficult to believe that e-sports in the west will be promoted to the same status as BW in korea. There are more factors behind BWs success than simply it being a good game. SC2 alone will not accomplish this in the west. It is all but a floating dream hyped by enthusiasts. Though, I applause all efforts.
Also, great post MightyAtom.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 05 2010 00:04 Doomgaze wrote:
I find it REALLY difficult to believe that e-sports in the west will be promoted to the same status as BW in korea. There are more factors behind BWs success than simply it being a good game. SC2 alone will not accomplish this in the west. It is all but a floating dream hyped by enthusiasts. Though, I applause all efforts.
Also, great post MightyAtom.
Sniffle, thanks. keke ^^
|
has to be a troll
press just said it was the fastest selling RTS of all time hows that a failure?
|
I agree with Atom, American PC gaming has not advanced at all in terms of perception. Even console gaming - consider how popular Halo/MW1 and 2 are. Then consider how many tourneys/e-sports events they are for it _and_ more importantly, how it is covered by mainstream media. Do I see this on the 11'oclock news on NBC/Fox/ABC? Lol at this happening, even in 10 years.
WoW may be popular, but its public perception is pretty awful. When SC2 is on ESPN, I will change my mind. Then again, ESPN aired the freakin National Spelling Bee of all things.
|
bw will die in the next year anyways, GOGO SC2 IS THE FUTURE !
|
Gosh, I hope the OP's right. Give USA a head-start for next year's WCG!! =b
|
On August 05 2010 00:13 Nexrad87 wrote:
has to be a troll
press just said it was the fastest selling RTS of all time hows that a failure?
Doesnt equate at all to longevity or even quality to be honest.
|
On August 05 2010 00:03 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:41 mitsoz wrote:
Maybe you should realise that your naive ideas about which game is "better" don't really matter to sc2's success as an e-sport. There is now so much money involved in the game that it simply does not boil down to that. Just think that recently blizzard had a major disagreement with kespa. Don't you think kespa has the power to pull the strings in korea and try to taint the image of the game? And every article and game review in major media is far from being independent and representative of just the writer's opinion, there are big companies with agendas behind them. And for such big names as starcraft and blizzard-activision there are a lot of agendas to go around. With this quote from someone who understands the overall picture of what is going on and since I just read the other responses given, when I was typing. LOL I GIVE UP, you guys win, I'm not trying to tell you that you need Korea to love SC2, or that Korea is the be end and end all of SC2, just trying to explain the more complexities here and the significance for e-sports and why there is the emphasis is here. I'm Korean, I'm not trying to brain wash you! Believe what you want and don't come to my country to watch SC2 professional games live, go watch it your own country or on VOD!!!! I'm gonna track your IP numbers and report them to the national cyber police to let immigration know not to let anyone in from your entire IP area and you're now all responsible for denying your close friends and family from experience the beauty and corporate excess of e-sports in Korea.. ^^ but seriously I GIVE UP. you guys win.
|
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
On August 05 2010 00:03 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:41 mitsoz wrote:
Maybe you should realise that your naive ideas about which game is "better" don't really matter to sc2's success as an e-sport. There is now so much money involved in the game that it simply does not boil down to that. Just think that recently blizzard had a major disagreement with kespa. Don't you think kespa has the power to pull the strings in korea and try to taint the image of the game? And every article and game review in major media is far from being independent and representative of just the writer's opinion, there are big companies with agendas behind them. And for such big names as starcraft and blizzard-activision there are a lot of agendas to go around. With this quote from someone who understands the overall picture of what is going on and since I just read the other responses given, when I was typing. LOL I GIVE UP, you guys win, I'm not trying to tell you that you need Korea to love SC2, or that Korea is the be end and end all of SC2, just trying to explain the more complexities here and the significance for e-sports and why there is the emphasis is here. I'm Korean, I'm not trying to brain wash you! Believe what you want and don't come to my country to watch SC2 professional games live, go watch it your own country or on VOD!!!! I'm gonna track your IP numbers and report them to the national cyber police to let immigration know not to let anyone in from your entire IP area and you're now all responsible for denying your close friends and family from experience the beauty and corporate excess of e-sports in Korea.. ^^ but seriously I GIVE UP. you guys win.
[day9]NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER![/day9]
sc2 will have success in korea soon.
|
On August 04 2010 23:41 Cofo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:32 DorF wrote:Woho!! Sc2 going to hell ! That's what you get blizzard when you betray everything that was good about BW cheers mate On a side note, posts like this annoy the hell out of me. If you like BW more, then play it. No one is stopping you, or making you play SC2. There's really no reason to advertise your elitist fanboyism here.
On August 05 2010 00:28 drewbie.root wrote:
bw will die in the next year anyways, GOGO SC2 IS THE FUTURE !
Now you see why loool.
It's not because of the Koreans, it's not because of SC:BW or SC2 being better, it's not because of anything else, it's just because Blizzard hyuked it up.
This is an exact example of how a father's greed can kill his own son.
|
|
|
On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:
Industry experts say SC2's entry into e-sports will be unclear if this trend continues,
*GASP*! The future isn't certain!?
This is completely new information to me.
|
internet caffe? what the hell why do they use those for statistics
|
On August 05 2010 00:08 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:04 Doomgaze wrote:
I find it REALLY difficult to believe that e-sports in the west will be promoted to the same status as BW in korea. There are more factors behind BWs success than simply it being a good game. SC2 alone will not accomplish this in the west. It is all but a floating dream hyped by enthusiasts. Though, I applause all efforts.
Also, great post MightyAtom. Sniffle, thanks. keke ^^
Thanks for your posts, it's nice to see someone who knows what he's talking about for a change
|
Why would people in Korea want to play Starcraft 2, when everything they see on TV, all the heroes they cheer for, aren't playing it?
|
On August 05 2010 01:04 balistix wrote:
internet caffe? what the hell why do they use those for statistics
maybe because the whole idea of Esports evolved from player groups playing in cafe's together making teams, the cafe's promoting tournaments to get more customers and after that sponsors realize that people going to the cafe's to participate in tournaments and making teams so they started to finance them.
It was like this for Counter Strike and It was the same for SC. Nothing can evolve from nothing. Like revolution ideas grow in the masses of people's brain, Computer Cafe's are where the masses started the idea of Esports.
(My whole post is a response to balistix my friendi. Not saying SC BW better or somethign like that)
|
Who cares what Korea or China thinks? If they wont make it big, US/Europe will!
Those industry experts should be named - i highly doubt they ever predicted anything.
Now, due to TL.net hating 2 line posts, I'll talk about a little flower called Bob.
Bob was a sad flower, cos no bees would kiss him... So he worked on his abs, and boy did he work hard. And now they all want him - but Bob meanwhile turned gay.
The end.
|
Imagine your country is crazy about football and someone introduces and pushed football 2, what do you think it would happen?
|
Let Korea have BW, the US and EU will have SC2
|
On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way)
The entire point is that popularity in Korea =/= popularity everywhere else. E-sports were more or less a complete joke in the west while they were mainstream in Korea. Just because Koreans accept SC2 (or don't) doesn't actually have much (if any) influence on western culture, and this is what we're saying. SC2 has the potential to really start the e-sports movement for the west, and so putting so much weight on if Korea likes it or not is pretty foolish because Korean culture doesn't influence western culture in that way.
|
On August 05 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:
Imagine your country is crazy about football and someone introduces and pushed football 2, what do you think it would happen?
This really puts it all into perspective. I never even considered imagining a thing was another thing
|
On August 05 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:
Imagine your country is crazy about football and someone introduces and pushed football 2, what do you think it would happen?
That comparison only works if football 1.0 required you to wear silly beginning of 1900s clothes, and the ball was a stuffed goat bladder.
|
"Have you wondered why Activision/Blizzard quotes sales numbers minus asia? It's an underhanded ploy to add more hype to the fire before people realize what a bad game it really is."
Stopped reading there.
|
I am getting sick of all these rage threads. SC2 is here, get used to it.
|
On August 05 2010 02:44 MangoTango wrote:
I am getting sick of all these rage threads. SC2 is here, get used to it.
Agreed.
All that matters is that sc2 kicks ass, and its the new sc. end of story.
There will always be a few holdouts wanting to play 20 year old games. Personally I lived through the days of bad graphics and glitchy game mechanics and am glad they are over.
Super Mario Bros. was a great game, but its day is over, and so is BW. Just because some people will still play it doesn't change that fact.
|
Korea doesn't really jump on the hype bandwagon. It seems they play games that have been established as competitive and that's how their rise in popularity comes to be. Just because it has the Starcraft label in front of the "2" doesn't automatically make it an instant success.
|
Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners".
+ Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true
|
On August 05 2010 02:50 Dr.Smoke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:44 MangoTango wrote:
I am getting sick of all these rage threads. SC2 is here, get used to it. Agreed. All that matters is that sc2 kicks ass, and its the new sc. end of story. There will always be a few holdouts wanting to play 20 year old games. Personally I lived through the days of bad graphics and glitchy game mechanics and am glad they are over. Super Mario Bros. was a great game, but its day is over, and so is BW. Just because some people will still play it doesn't change that fact.
No, you missed the point of his argument.
He's saying that since SC2 sales were only REALLY high and not ABSURDLY high that the game is definitively poor (which is his completely objective and provable conclusion) and that it will provably not have a place in future esports (because he can predict the future). And the anonymous experts (the most trustworthy and reliable kind of experts) said that they can prove the sales weren't good enough based on how many people played it for free in one chain of internet cafes in one country.
So obviously he is completely right in every regard ever.
|
On August 05 2010 02:44 MangoTango wrote:
I am getting sick of all these rage threads. SC2 is here, get used to it.
Look to some of us users who cant afford to get the latest graphic card will stick to broodwar . Why the hatred man ? You play your games and we will play ours I am not against starcraft 2 though as long as my favourite team's do not just die in a sudden manner I am happy at the way things are .
|
On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true
3000$ tournaments are a joke, no offense...
|
On August 05 2010 03:03 Seltsam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:50 Dr.Smoke wrote:On August 05 2010 02:44 MangoTango wrote:
I am getting sick of all these rage threads. SC2 is here, get used to it. Agreed. All that matters is that sc2 kicks ass, and its the new sc. end of story. There will always be a few holdouts wanting to play 20 year old games. Personally I lived through the days of bad graphics and glitchy game mechanics and am glad they are over. Super Mario Bros. was a great game, but its day is over, and so is BW. Just because some people will still play it doesn't change that fact. No, you missed the point of his argument. He's saying that since SC2 sales were only REALLY high and not ABSURDLY high that the game is definitively poor (which is his completely objective and provable conclusion) and that it will provably not have a place in future esports (because he can predict the future). And the anonymous experts (the most trustworthy and reliable kind of experts) said that they can prove the sales weren't good enough based on how many people played it for free in one chain of internet cafes in one country. So obviously he is completely right in every regard ever.
Finally someone who gets it!
|
On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true
lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/
|
On August 04 2010 17:20 Raiznhell wrote:
Starcraft 2 has AMAZING gameplay and it's ladder system imo is a huge success cuz now you dont have to go on iccup and get your face smashed every single game.
but
the sound effects and the lack of adrenaline and the more clunky unit looks...cough cough marauders cough....completely ruin the game for watching. the sound effects of starcraft 2 are absolutely without a question GOD AWFUL. it's the only part of the core gameplay that i HATE. but the fact that sc2 is significantly slower in pace ruins it as well. like compare the collosus to the reaver as they both have similar function. reaver did the same job cept needed a shuttle(heartpounding adrenaline cuz shuttles die easily) and it's scarabs could kill like 8 scvs INSTANTLY, also scarabs could be outran which was fun to watch.
im not saying take out the collosus and put the reaver back but starcraft 2 NEEDS these things like reavers, lurkers and spider mines that just make people scream with excitement. nobody jumps out of their chair going OOOMG! when they notice a banshee cloak and slowly fly over to the mineral line and pick of workers...one...at...a...time.
sc2 units are no fun.
if the developers TRULY wanted starcraft 2 to succeed they should either patch the game with better more original units and/or update the sound fx to at leats be as good as the original made 12 years ago? lol thats what baffles me about the sound fx is that it's 12 years more developed but sounds like garbage. watching the sound effect part of the behind the scenes DVD i inda wanted to smack the guy for ruining the game.
cuz now that im on it starcraft 2 does have banelings and hellions that deal hefty damage instantly but their sounds and their animations are incredibly BAD. and honestly the hellion needs a better model too.
i can ramble for ages on how terrible the background stuff is for starcraft 2 but the core gameplay of it is a success. is there any way to voice this to blizzard cuz i really care about the future of this game and would like it to be an fast, fun and exciting esport like BW
Id have to disagree with youre complaints,all of them.Generally people like you are to attached to the original.WoW dejavu?I can remember the same kinda complaints from a year ago. I for one like almost all the VO,models and animations,thou sc1s are on top of their league.
|
why isnt this guy banned or warned? he just called sc2 bad.
sure everyone is entitled to there own opinions. but its like trying to pit flat earth theory vs sphere earth.
seriously. this guy is a troll and i take what he says with a grain of salt
|
Haha, 3000 $ tournaments... this is not a valid argument for SC2!
I agree with this part: Korea will play BW and the rest of the world SC2
I will play BW
|
On August 05 2010 03:05 kiryah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true 3000$ tournaments are a joke, no offense...
$3,000 for a game that wasn't even released yet.
|
On August 05 2010 03:05 kiryah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true 3000$ tournaments are a joke, no offense...
Sadly so are most of the people posting in this thread.
$3000 prize pool during a beta is actually quite good, especially since that was from one company.
There was a host of different tournaments that had payouts ranging from several hundred to several thousand. Most of those tournaments only had one sponsor and 8-16 players involved.
I know starcraft or sc:bw didn't have prize pools that large in beta or in their early years.
Thats rather good for a beta. As was already said, the game just came out, give it some time and see what happens.
|
On August 05 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:
Imagine your country is crazy about football and someone introduces and pushed football 2, what do you think it would happen?
id play football 2..
|
On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/
This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain:
A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about.
B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase.
|
On August 05 2010 02:56 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Korea doesn't really jump on the hype bandwagon.
HAHAHAHHAHA. You obviously don't know koreans. The Mecca of bandwagoneers.
|
im really gonna leave my judgement on how successful SC2 wil be until the expansion comes out. ( i know thats not for another year + )
Blizzard has a history of making a game and then really refining it in the expansion, by adding new units where there seems to be gaps. SC1 wouldnt be where is it today with BW and warcraft wouldnt be without FT
|
On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase.
comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all
wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools.
mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost?
|
no RTS game blows up from day1, why should sc2 be any different...
|
On August 05 2010 02:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) The entire point is that popularity in Korea =/= popularity everywhere else. E-sports were more or less a complete joke in the west while they were mainstream in Korea. Just because Koreans accept SC2 (or don't) doesn't actually have much (if any) influence on western culture, and this is what we're saying. SC2 has the potential to really start the e-sports movement for the west, and so putting so much weight on if Korea likes it or not is pretty foolish because Korean culture doesn't influence western culture in that way.
I dont get the"nerds" talk.Gaming is becoming so mainstream and casual nowadays,its hard to tell where being a gamer begins and end. There are just so many stages,casual,mainstream,on average,hardcore.
But i dont think sc2,like brood war,will ignite e-sports in the West,not without some serious budging on behalf of Blizz or other respectable sponsors.Its not
gaming per say,rather RTSs and starcraft,that dont cause the same amount of stir in the general mindset,like the casual wii-ware has.Id say Korea is somewhat of a phenomenon,and if it dies there,it may die all over.
|
On August 05 2010 03:19 NIJ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 02:56 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Korea doesn't really jump on the hype bandwagon. HAHAHAHHAHA. You obviously don't know koreans. The Mecca of bandwagoneers.
so true. every time korea does well in a big time sport (world cup, chan ho park, michelle wie, kim yuna, etc.)
EVERY FUCKIN KOREAN EVER becomes a fan of that sport.
I would know, I'm Korean myself, and I've had the same happen to me.
|
On August 05 2010 03:21 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools. mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost?
You're ignoring my point. Hint: I know sc isn't a card game.
Here's the core of the post:
"Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase.
|
On August 05 2010 02:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) The entire point is that popularity in Korea =/= popularity everywhere else. E-sports were more or less a complete joke in the west while they were mainstream in Korea. Just because Koreans accept SC2 (or don't) doesn't actually have much (if any) influence on western culture, and this is what we're saying. SC2 has the potential to really start the e-sports movement for the west, and so putting so much weight on if Korea likes it or not is pretty foolish because Korean culture doesn't influence western culture in that way.
Problem is, the Esports movement is strongest in Korea because unlike in other places, Esports is actually not as badly stigmatized as in other areas. In the West, you'll see people dubbing it as "super-nerdy/geeky." It just won't have the views because of that stereotype and thus, will have a much more difficult time becoming accepted. Hell, just for an example, when the betting scandal was posted on Digg/Reddit (forgot which site), most of the comments regarding it, when it was compared to the baseball betting scandal, consisted of "LOLWHATNO! Starcraft nowhere close to baseball" and other comments that derided the comparison and the game in general. Though the comments on Digg/Reddit are not completely an accurate representation of society as a whole, it still reflect a certain stereotype/stigma of gaming in the West.
Is SC2 being popular in Korea a sign of its popularity everywhere else? Like you stated, of course not. However, the greatest chance of SC2 becoming a big-time E-Sport will probably be Korea because of the stigmas attached to competitive gaming.
Is it possible to shatter those stigmas in other cultures besides Korea? Yes, but it will be far more difficult.
|
On August 05 2010 03:27 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:21 travis wrote:On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools. mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost? You're ignoring my point. Hint: I know sc isn't a card game. Here's the core of the post: Show nested quote +"Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase.
You're right, but look at the way everyone is going about what they're doing. Everyone is doing everything they can to make SC2 more mainstream because it seems like the best candidate for doing so. That means that the goal right now is to create that infrastructure. Yeah, as it stands RIGHT NOW (that is, 8 days after release) there's no way that sc2 could sustain itself. But the community is really pulling together to create a culture of competitive gaming that seems to be growing all the time. SC2 has shown promise with 3k price pools pre-release. While 3k prize pools aren't much, and it doesn't really mean anything in isolation, I think it will give people the motivation they need to really ramp up their efforts.
You're right in that SC2 doesn't have that infrastructure as it stands right now, but the game is still in its infancy and shows some real potential. I think that, given enough time, the community will grow to the point that will create the sustainability necessary to allow SC2 to last for a long, long time.
|
On August 05 2010 03:34 Seltsam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:27 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:21 travis wrote:On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools. mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost? You're ignoring my point. Hint: I know sc isn't a card game. Here's the core of the post: "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. You're right, but look at the way everyone is going about what they're doing. Everyone is doing everything they can to make SC2 more mainstream because it seems like the best candidate for doing so. That means that the goal right now is to create that infrastructure. Yeah, as it stands RIGHT NOW (that is, 8 days after release) there's no way that sc2 could sustain itself. But the community is really pulling together to create a culture of competitive gaming that seems to be growing all the time. SC2 has shown promise with 3k price pools pre-release. While 3k prize pools aren't much, and it doesn't really mean anything in isolation, I think it will give people the motivation they need to really ramp up their efforts. You're right in that SC2 doesn't have that infrastructure as it stands right now, but the game is still in its infancy and shows some real potential. I think that, given enough time, the community will grow to the point that will create the sustainability necessary to allow SC2 to last for a long, long time.
I don't doubt it's possible, I'm just cautioning people that prize pools aren't a sign of the game's ultimate or current success.
|
the community is so huge in SC2 right now.. it seems unlikely the scene wont kick off.. in many ways it already has.
sc is dead in foreigner scene now. SC2 in my honest opinion has taken its place. whether korea comes with or not doesn't matter. wc3 did fine without korea : )
and the scene is probably already much bigger then wc3 ever was.
also aren't we forgetting about china? : )
|
NOOOOOOoooo!!! DONT say this you bastard. T_T
sc2 will be great success....
|
Is SC2 being popular in Korea a sign of its popularity everywhere else? Like you stated, of course not. However, the greatest chance of SC2 becoming a big-time E-Sport will probably be Korea because of the stigmas attached to competitive gaming.
Actually, no. Korea is probably the most difficult place for SC2 to grow because of BW. And the remainder of your post (that I deleted for size reasons) is exactly my point - SC2 has the potential to get rid of that aura of "nerdyness" or whatever the stereotype is for e-sports. With how much attention it's gotten, if the right people in the west push it forward, it could be the game that really breaks through for the western e-sports scene.
|
On August 05 2010 03:39 FindingPride wrote:
the community is so huge in SC2 right now.. it seems unlikely the scene wont kick off.. in many ways it already has.
sc is dead in foreigner scene now. SC2 in my honest opinion has taken its place. whether korea comes with or not doesn't matter. wc3 did fine without korea : )
and the scene is probably already much bigger then wc3 ever was.
also aren't we forgetting about china? : )
Afaik sc2 is banned in china.
|
Yea one week after the most anticipated game of the year was released it has a huge community what a surprise. Many of those casual fans that are dabbling in SC2 in the U.S. are gonna leave it pretty soon. If SC2 isn't popular in SK then it faces really really serious competition. The fact is WC3 owns china, Wow and CS are serious competition in the U.S. , and WC3 is serious competition in the international market. It looks like so far SC2 hasn't accomplished what WC3 accomplished in S.K. and maybe it's won't even accomplish that.(yea that was just a bit of a flame but it is valid )
|
I thought Starcraft 2 literally destroyed in the UK market. Outsold the original in 5 days
|
On August 05 2010 03:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
Is SC2 being popular in Korea a sign of its popularity everywhere else? Like you stated, of course not. However, the greatest chance of SC2 becoming a big-time E-Sport will probably be Korea because of the stigmas attached to competitive gaming.
Actually, no. Korea is probably the most difficult place for SC2 to grow because of BW. And the remainder of your post (that I deleted for size reasons) is exactly my point - SC2 has the potential to get rid of that aura of "nerdyness" or whatever the stereotype is for e-sports. With how much attention it's gotten, if the right people in the west push it forward, it could be the game that really breaks through for the western e-sports scene.
That's true. I'll concede there because I see where you're going.
And how could I have forgotten about BW in Korea as an opposing factor...-.-
|
didnt day9s launch event have like... 15k viewers? lmao.. I enjoy spectating.. its going to do good i think
|
Its unpopular not because of any flaw with the game; its because Blizzard is charging way too much per hour spent on the game (the new system they have prevents what PCBang owners just used to do, which is one copy would be sufficient for all your computers), so owners either don't even offer it, or charge way more to play it than they do Brood War, so consumers just opt to play BW.
|
I am pretty sure sc2 doesn't suck. :|
|
On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true
Arent there multiple tournaments sponsored by Intel?
I mean...come on, don't try to say that there isn't big sponsors
|
Haters and Starcraft "elitists" amuse me
|
On August 05 2010 04:20 MrMotionPicture wrote:
I am pretty sure sc2 doesn't suck. :|
It doesn't, people are trying to say a bad business decision by Blizzard has any affect on the gameplay
"LOOK THE KOREANS ARENT PLAYING IT BECAUSE ITS BAD!"
|
Seriously I think that the mods should close this topic and every topics of the same kind.
Although there are people that speak reasons and wisdom, a lot of them are just SC2 or SCBW hooligans and the only thing they do here is bashing each other to death.
Translating a Korean news is great, but letting crazy people fighting over it is really... crazy.
|
why do so many people want sc2 to fail?
bw was only saved by the community.. If you want to compare vanilla SC2 to vanilla BW.
i think ull find that BW was a stinking pile of crap in terms of balance...(Vanilla) as it stands SC2 has a huge lift up without people needing to void from the bnet community to enter the scene.
and im not saying this to incite flame war. Just think a little before you post... also. Why dont we close this thread? seems to be alot of tense emotion in the air ~_~
|
On August 05 2010 05:20 FindingPride wrote:
why do so many people want sc2 to fail?
bw was only saved by the community.. If you want to compare vanilla SC2 to vanilla BW.
i think ull find that BW was a stinking pile of crap in terms of balance...(Vanilla) as it stands SC2 has a huge lift up without people needing to void from the bnet community to enter the scene.
and im not saying this to incite flame war. Just think a little before you post... also. Why dont we close this thread? seems to be alot of tense emotion in the air ~_~
Its classic nostalgia effect. You saw the exact same thing with Halo sequels, COunterstrike Source, etc
Pretty much any of the bashing on the actual game (there are problems with BNet 2) is just wildly inaccurate
|
On August 05 2010 05:24 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:20 FindingPride wrote:
why do so many people want sc2 to fail?
bw was only saved by the community.. If you want to compare vanilla SC2 to vanilla BW.
i think ull find that BW was a stinking pile of crap in terms of balance...(Vanilla) as it stands SC2 has a huge lift up without people needing to void from the bnet community to enter the scene.
and im not saying this to incite flame war. Just think a little before you post... also. Why dont we close this thread? seems to be alot of tense emotion in the air ~_~ Its classic nostalgia effect. You saw the exact same thing with Halo sequels, COunterstrike Source, etc Pretty much any of the bashing on the actual game (there are problems with BNet 2) is just wildly inaccurate
I don't think people can make the connection that you cant enjoy things the same way you can when you were younger.
|
"Gamespot along with several other news sites have reported that StarCraft II has sold 1 million during its first launch day and 1.5 million during the first 48 hours of its release. Because of its amazing launch success, Blizzard can now officially claim, as they have with this press release, that StarCraft II as the fastest selling Real-Time Strategy game of all time as well as the fastest selling PC game of 2010. An executive from Gamestop has also announced that StarCraft II is the fastest selling PC game of all time in Gamestop history. The new estimate for StarCraft II's potential sales is now 6.5 million within 2010." -Front page of another SC2 website
I love how this one paragraph pretty much says it all. Starcraft II is one of the best games out of this year and probably the next 5 years if not more. It's only going to get better as they start adding some of the promised features. People seem to get lost in their own complaining and forget that Blizzard continues to deliver quality products as well as the best post-release support I have ever seen. Most other game designers push out games and follow up with almost no support so they can start working on the next $50, I mean game.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
We don't allow this kind of posting about SC2, nor do we about SC1.
A bunch of monkeys, really? You think it's coincidence the majority of good Sc2 players have a SC1 background =[?
|
On August 05 2010 04:15 FindingPride wrote:
didnt day9s launch event have like... 15k viewers? lmao.. I enjoy spectating.. its going to do good i think
I think HDH youtube channels having ~140k subscribers already says something... Even though I don't think they deserve it
|
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me
|
On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me
Ye. they hurt the pro scene so much.. with them making the game and all/
lmao
but i see your point. It could be a contributing factor to whether or not it hits off strong
|
On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me
Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Rather than debating with blizzard over rights for months they should have been happy blizzard would give them anything. With any other type of product an argument like that the Kespa side would have been flat out crushed.
|
With some more time and tweaking sc2 will be a very very good game, and will most likely completely replace bw. This scares people, because a. BW has been such a huge part of their lives for the past decade, and b. because bw is a much more mechanically challenging/better game. It effectively represents the closing of the bw era, which is bittersweet for many of us. Its sort of like blizzard gave us a good game to replace a great game. But who knows, with some time and effort, sc2 could turn out to be a great game too.
|
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:
This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
BW was and is a great game it hade a crazy good interface for its time and it was not just who could click the fastest LOL. There is alot of strategy in BW prob even more so then in SC2 right now for the moment. also koreans are just good at everything : P they don't abuse it LOL
|
On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it?
Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry?
|
On August 05 2010 05:56 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry?
And the primary part of that industry is the game itself. I'm not taking sides on the specific issue (I don't know exactly what Blizzard was demanding), but you're a fool if you think that Blizzard should just sit back and not take some well-deserved profits for an industry that profits solely from their game. They both deserve part of it, but Blizzard made the game - they deserve a notable part of it.
|
this sounds like qq to me
|
On August 05 2010 05:58 Stratos_speAr wrote:
And the primary part of that industry is the game itself. I'm not taking sides on the specific issue (I don't know exactly what Blizzard was demanding), but you're a fool if you think that Blizzard should just sit back and not take some well-deserved profits for an industry that profits solely from their game. They both deserve part of it, but Blizzard made the game - they deserve a notable part of it.
They got profit, and lot of it from loyalties,sales and advertisement. They want control, and that part is intolerable. Besides, this is not the US, the law is different. That's why Blizz never dare to sue the Koreans.
I found an interesting article on the issue :
http://blog.gang-su.com/?p=16http://blog.gang-su.com/?p=16
|
On August 05 2010 05:56 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry?
No, it was a great thing to do but expecting blizzard to just sit back and watch while Kespa ran things was a huge mistake on their part. Blizzard let Kespa hold the reigns for the entire duration of brood war and they were naive to think blizzard would let them do the exact same thing with their new and better game too.
Look at it this way. Say you invented a card game and it became a huge hit so you start selling it for a few bucks. Now some guy really likes the game and thinks it could get even bigger so he starts running tables in a Vegas casino and makes a killing. Wouldn't you agree that the creator of the game should be able to either completely shut this guy in Vegas down or at least get a significant cut?
|
On August 05 2010 05:26 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:24 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 05 2010 05:20 FindingPride wrote:
why do so many people want sc2 to fail?
bw was only saved by the community.. If you want to compare vanilla SC2 to vanilla BW.
i think ull find that BW was a stinking pile of crap in terms of balance...(Vanilla) as it stands SC2 has a huge lift up without people needing to void from the bnet community to enter the scene.
and im not saying this to incite flame war. Just think a little before you post... also. Why dont we close this thread? seems to be alot of tense emotion in the air ~_~ Its classic nostalgia effect. You saw the exact same thing with Halo sequels, COunterstrike Source, etc Pretty much any of the bashing on the actual game (there are problems with BNet 2) is just wildly inaccurate I don't think people can make the connection that you cant enjoy things the same way you can when you were younger.
It is good that people aren't biased about seeing NEW or UPDATED as having any positive psychological connotations. Nobody was thinking that SC2 will replace SC after hearing announcement, just becouse it is never, right? I mean people are too biased to see OLD, and OUTDATED as too positive to look at NEW things without a negative bias.
|
zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually.
|
The reason blizzard shouldn't have tried to step on kespa's toes is because if blizzard did have their way, they would not promote the esports scene nearly as much as organizations like kespa do.
Basically blizzard has no interest in perpetuating and hosting consistent and frequent esports events, but they want to cash in on organizations that do have that interest.
As for sc2 as a game, it doesn't suck just because it isn't bw, and it isn't god's gift to rts games just because it is the sequel.
Let the game stand on it's own merits, look at it from a neutral standpoint.
I do think that whether the game is worthy or not, it is getting way too much hype, and I could easily see it folding in a year or two much like other esports related games/leagues do when they try to succeed purely on hype. (CGS, WSVG)
While NA and EU do not need korea to be on board with sc2 for them to have a healthy tourney scene, it definitely helps a lot when the country at the forefront of esports is in the mix. In korea it's normal for pros to really treat gaming as a job, they come closer to perfection because of how dedicated they are than the americans or europeans usually do. There are good players from NA and EU but because the cultures aren't nearly as enthusiastic about such things obviously the amount of players that put in that sort of dedication with that sort of support are gonna be much lower.
When you see esports done in korea, compared to how it is done in europe and america, it is much much different.
|
On August 05 2010 06:19 Cynoks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 05:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 05:46 Cynoks wrote:On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me Blizzard made the games. Why should Kespa or any one else for that matter be allowed to make an entire industry and profits off of it? Uh, why shouldn't they? You don't think that was a good thing to do, creating an entire industry? No, it was a great thing to do but expecting blizzard to just sit back and watch while Kespa ran things was a huge mistake on their part. Blizzard let Kespa hold the reigns for the entire duration of brood war and they were naive to think blizzard would let them do the exact same thing with their new and better game too. Look at it this way. Say you invented a card game and it became a huge hit so you start selling it for a few bucks. Now some guy really likes the game and thinks it could get even bigger so he starts running tables in a Vegas casino and makes a killing. Wouldn't you agree that the creator of the game should be able to either completely shut this guy in Vegas down or at least get a significant cut?
Uh, no.
|
Think the biggest mistake blizzard made was to separate the one main game into 3 installments...I remember how many people where pissed over it, it just ruins the momentum of sales and advertising/publicity but hey they thought they where being smart with the cash cow.
|
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content.
|
On August 05 2010 06:30 koOma wrote:
zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually.
....Korea should have been the first to buy SC 2 in droves. It's supposed to be a religion over there, if the stats are right then it's a bad sign.
|
On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content.
Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it.
|
On August 05 2010 06:49 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content. Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it.
Didn't you know? Fellowship of the Ring was a third of a movie!
|
On August 05 2010 05:35 Tazza wrote:
I think what Blizzard did to Kespa and the SC1 pro scene rubbed a lot of Korean people the wrong way including me
so what about when Kespa used their muscle to ruin the GOMTV Invitationals
|
On August 05 2010 03:21 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:16 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:07 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 05 2010 03:00 ckw wrote:Also, saying "Big money sponsors" only come from Korea is stupid. Maybe for BW but even in BETA US and EU had 3000$ tournaments bro, thats BETA! Just give it another half year and well have even bigger sponsors and Korea and BW will be left in the dust. Ah I can't wait to call Koreans the true "foreigners". + Show Spoiler +Wishful thinking maybe, but the sponsor part is true lol, $3,000 dollars 'big money' :/ This post was a little lacking in context, so let me explain: A) 3,000 bucks aint shit. It's absolutely nothing on the scale we're talking about. B) "Tournaments with money" doesn't mean a thing if those tournaments aren't accompanied by an infrastructure, and more importantly, a culture of competitive gaming. Magic: The Gathering has a pro scene with several major tournaments each year, each of which has at minimum a 230,000 dollar prize pool. There are literally thousands and thousands of smaller tournaments each year and dozens of online tournaments every day. Where do you think all this would go if Wizards of the Coasts went out of business tomorrow? To the bottom. Just because there's money in the system doesn't mean it can support itself on the strength of it's mainstream fanbase. comparing mtg to computer games doesn't make any sense at all wizards of the coast makes more money by selling more cards, so it's in their interest to create more desire to buy more cards. they make money with bigger prize pools. mtg is just in a different department than computer games, financially. why would you even bother making this comparison. how much money does a good mtg deck cost? how much money does sc2 cost? how much money does your new deck 6 months later cost? how much money does your sc2 expansion 18 months later cost?
He was arguing the opposite point. He was saying that MTG wasn't sustainable because the only reason the money is in the system is because its being pumped in by woc, and how SC2 doesn't suffer from similar issues.
Personally, I'm rooting for Kespa. Not because of morals or anything, its silly to apply individual ethic to corporations. Both are just corporate entities staffed by people genuinely passionate about what they do and run by a few suits. But Kespa's suits has its interested entirely devoted to Esports, all their money is invested into the success of Starcraft as an Esport. For Blizzard, Esports is just so extra profit on the side and a chance to promote their game. If I had to pick which of those companies to subscribe to as a consumer eager for the continued success of Esports, Kespa would be my best bet.
|
Maybe those of us in North America will stand a chance against the Koreans when they finally adopt because we'll have so much extra playtime. =)
[quoteThink the biggest mistake blizzard made was to separate the one main game into 3 installments...I remember how many people where pissed over it, it just ruins the momentum of sales and advertising/publicity but hey they thought they where being smart with the cash cow.[/quote]
Or maybe it will build momentum because it will give them a second wave and keep the game fresh.
|
There has been a lot of back and forth about the Blizzard-Kespa issue, and in general about the question of whether or not they should get a piece of the esports revenue. I'll leave that to be answered by someone else, but whether you think they should or not, everyone can agree that they are TRYING to get a piece of it. The problem is, their approach, while understandable, has been the wrong one.
I'm not talking about the legal battle with Kespa. Right from the beginning, Blizzard had no involvement whatsoever in esports. As I said, it's understandable, since esports did not exist at all when SC1 came out, so it was easy to ignore the early stages as they took root in Korea and elsewhere. It grew until it got big enough that it would be worthwhile for Blizzard to get a piece of it, and they tried to move in. Therein lies the problem. Everyone is used to Blizzard having no part in esports. You can't let a community like this develop for 12 years and then try to elbow your way in without expecting resistance. Of course Kespa and others are going to fight back, why should they give any of their profits away, when they haven't had to since the beginning? (This is how they see it)
The sad thing is, I think they are going to make exactly the same mistake in Europe and NA. Currently the esports scene is miniscule in both places, compared to Korea. It is most certainly not worth the effort to grab a piece of the occasional $2k tournaments that are run in those places. The movement will continue to grow, free from Blizzard interference, until it reaches some critical point where it DOES make sense for them to put in the effort of getting a piece. Then they will elbow their way in, exactly like they did in Korea. And people will fight it, because they are used to not having to deal with Blizz, or pay them a cut.
|
|
|
That has nothing to do with the OP.
|
10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 06:53 Psychopomp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:49 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On August 05 2010 06:45 0neder wrote:
Hey haven't separated the game into 3 installments. There will just be an extra expansion. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, it's beyond me how people can be angry at more content. Because some people can't grasp the concept that buying 3 full-length games over at least a 3 year period isn't a big deal. If the 3 installment setup allows for 2 more campaigns as good as this, extra units, and guaranteed continued community support, then I'm all for it. Didn't you know? Fellowship of the Ring was a third of a movie!
Did you know? Fellowship of the Ring actually had some depth to it.
Personally, I think Blizzard shouldn't even get a cut from eSports.. they got a shitload of sales from all the games sold, why should they be even greedier and drive up the costs of setting up an eSports tourney? We don't see Valve or Capcom demand money from CS and Street Fighter tourneys, so Blizzard shouldn't demand money either, they've got enough already. Hell, even KeSPA was willing to pay Blizzard a fee for hosting tournaments, but then it made some outrageous demands like auditing KeSPA's finances (seriously what the fuck? It's almost as if they did this just to get them to refuse).
Not only that, but I do recall some old timer posting a thread where he said Blizzard never really helped Brood War as an eSport.. in fact, sometimes they were a detriment. It was the community that raised Brood War from the ground to where it was now, so if anything we should get a cut (the cut being great games haha..)
|
Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
|
On August 05 2010 06:46 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:30 koOma wrote:
zzzZz, SC2 is already huge worldwide. Korea will follow eventually. ....Korea should have been the first to buy SC 2 in droves. It's supposed to be a religion over there, if the stats are right then it's a bad sign.
No. People need to understand that SC2 is NOT Brood War. Brood War is the popular game in Korea, not SC2.
|
SC2 is a bw and wc3 hybrid. It will probably do as well as wc3 lol. SC2 would be popular if it had a higher skill ceiling because Koreans probably like to show off their skills.
|
BW had years and years to sell as much as it did, and WoW uses an intentionally addictive formula to bring and hook players. SC2 has been out only eight days and people are trying to say its a bad game or doing poorly and 1.8 million plus sales? Pfft. I have a special message for all the trolls out there that keep making these redundant and frankly annoying posts. If you do not like SC2, stop bashing it. Go back to BW. Leave the people who like it alone. And finally don't buy it. That is all. Thank you. Whether SC2 gets a pro-scene in Korea is pretty irrelevant its clear that NA and EU are finally ready for a pro-gaming scene around SC2, especially with the MLG / ESL picking up SC2. The pro-scene will be long and vibrant regardless of when or if the majority of Koreans get involved.
|
United States10774 Posts
On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
What a god damn ignorant retard.
|
On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
Can you say trolled?
|
United States10774 Posts
On August 05 2010 08:14 Snausages wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. Can you say trolled?
Not really, I'm pretty sure he's serious. We are on SC2 forum after all, right?
|
On August 05 2010 07:59 uiotui wrote:
Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
You're assuming an english stats website that requires manually adding divisions has all the data on SEA and Korean server, which judging by the SEA numbers I think it's safe to say it doesn't
|
On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
Ignore the slow-clicking ape.
|
On August 05 2010 07:59 uiotui wrote:
Okay looking at some of the data available one can judge just how many people are on each ladder right now (which would roughly give some indication of how many people were indeed buying and playing the game)...
Diamond level 1v1 players per server (according to RTS-Sanctuary)...
North American: 5973 players
Europe: 4504
Korea: 2234
Taiwan: 1106
Southeast Asia: 749
Given the small population of South Korea, I would say the game has definitely not failed... then again about twice as many people in Europe are playing as in Korea... and three times as many people are playing in North America.
Edit to add:
Assuming 1 million copies were sold in North America, one can see that most people aren't playing 1v1 competitively unless only a very small % of the player base is actually being placed into diamond. Based on the above numbers (assuming both North Americans and Koreans play about the same amount of 1v1 on average... which is assuming a lot but you get the idea) we can see that about 300,000 Koreans are playing SC2.
The population of North America is about 500 million... the population of South Korea 50 million... From the data it's clear a higher % of the population of Korea is playing than in North America.
Going by those numbers and the number of internet users from http://www.internetworldstats.com/list2.htm
A South Korean internet user plays 1v1 ladder in SC2 about 2.5 times more likely than a North American one, and about 4 times more likely than an European user.
|
SC2 is more popular in Korea than in America. It's just that BW is still more popular than SC2.
|
On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard.
I never thought I'd read horrible, uninformed posts like these on teamliquid. It seriously makes me sad. Just because macro took more effort in BW doesn't mean it was a spamfest where the players mindlessly click. There was just as much strategy and way, way more skill in deciding exactly which actions you need to do and which situations need focus.
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
There are a myriad of reasons why Koreans aren't playing SC2 but none of them are that SC2 is a bad game or it's too easy or that the "monkeys" (seriously? that's almost ban worthy in my opinion) don't want to play a game not based around "mindless spamming."
There's just more money in BW right now in Korea, you can actually have a career playing it, whereas nothing like that exists for SC2 yet.
I personally am very happy with the situation. Earlier this year I was quite sad about the potential death of professional brood war in Korea after the launch of SC2. I remember thinking "Wow, what if this is the last year of proleague? What if this is the last OSL/MSL?" My heart sunk.
This news, then, is just great. We in the west, who for the most part have quit playing Brood War, get this new game that's fresh and just as fun as BW was when it first came out, and at the same time we still have pro BW in Korea to entertain us. I'm highly anticipating the proleague finals this weekend, possibly more than any proleague finals in the history of Starcraft, and I highly doubt my love for Brood War will ever die -- much like many of the vets on this forum.
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." We just don't want our game to die, that's all. Can you blame us?
|
Someone who has access to the Korean server should look at the amount of games being played simultaneously (Can be seen at the Home screen). The players online one apparently has WoW in it as well so we can't use that.
At this moment Europe has 40k games being played.
|
There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible.
|
Right now SC1 is still ablet o be played for a living(i think?) so once there is SC2 osls and shit then people will start picking it up rapidly
|
There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible.
(sigh)
The reason SC2 hasn't taken off as much in Korea has NOTHING to do with MBS. It has to do with marketing and Blizzard's PC Bang rules, and the popularity of the BW pro-scene.
|
The popularity of Starcraft as a spectator sport (beyond the "KeSPA took Starcraft and ran with it" implications) has nothing to do with a skill cap. The boundless skill of the players is merely a selling point. Just about anyone can watch the game without any prior knowledge and figure out what's going on. You can't say the same thing about Warcraft III.
|
On August 05 2010 08:30 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +There is only one solution: give Koreans a version of their own-
SC2: Hard Mode (MBS disabled)
I'm not going to discuss all the intricacies, but I'm sure one reason they don't (won't) like SC2 is because of its difficulty. I think the Koreans would like it if SC2's gameplay was as close to Brood War as possible. (sigh) The reason SC2 hasn't taken off as much in Korea has NOTHING to do with MBS. It has to do with marketing and Blizzard's PC Bang rules, and the popularity of the BW pro-scene.
I was totally joking.
But if, what if, it turns out to be true? WC3 was certainly an easier game than BW, yet it wasn't as popular. I really would like to hear from Koreans themselves (better off, the progamers' perspectives/analysis/first impressions).
|
Well, if this is true, then it's not completely surprising. What if I told you Christianity 2.0 was coming?
Either way, Brood War still has a strong and very profitable following after a decade. It's not going to topple easily, especially considering the differences between the two games.
|
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
The strategy this game contains is build orders, unit compositions, and timings. None of that requires you to sit back and think. Making a game that requires high mechanical skill compliments this type of strategy.
If you want to play a strategy game where you can be as slow as a turtle go play a total war game.
|
(following directly from the OP)
And it doesn't matter at all. BW rose up through the bangs because it was a relative unknown in the country. SC2 is already hugely popular outside the bangs and is slated to be added to the proleague and to E-sports here in America, so it in no way fails anywhere else.
|
On August 04 2010 15:43 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:37 G3nXsiS wrote:
I honestly don't understand why Koreans are not excited about Starcraft 2. This is when I start to blame Broodwar. It needs to die in order for starcraft 2 to be released. Until then starcraft 2 will never be successful in Korea. Why should Brood War die to make way for Starcraft 2 when Starcraft 2 is currently the inferior game? I want Starcraft 2 to be better, I really do. As it stands right at this point in time Brood War is better. I hope that Blizzard knows what they are doing and addresses the issues with battle.net, regions, lan and fix some of the bland units/gameplay. Then we will have a worthy replacement. As others have said, give it time. For now the OP is an accurate reflection of what is happening right now in Korea and lines up with how I feel about the game.
Are you kidding me? Broodwar a better game? Its a better game because the gamers have perfected it. It took years of development to get to that level. Starcraft 2, however is capable of exceeding that level and should therefore be given more attention. While the level of play might not be the same as Broodwar right now, people need to play it in order to make it better.
|
On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
The strategy this game contains is build orders, unit compositions, and timings. None of that requires you to sit back and think. Making a game that requires high mechanical skill compliments this type of strategy.
If you want to play a strategy game where you can be as slow as a turtle go play a total war game.
The term "real-time strategy" has always been a misnomer given that it's probably closer to tactics. That's the issue at hand. It's semantics. It's the same reason people don't particularly like the term "role-playing game". You can make a very easy argument the only true role-playing video game in the thirty-five-year history of "role-playing games" (a genre directly inspired by Dungeons and Dragons) was Deus Ex.
|
|
|
I was totally joking.
But if, what if, it turns out to be true? WC3 was certainly an easier game than BW, yet it wasn't as popular. I really would like to hear from Koreans themselves (better off, the progamers' perspectives/analysis/first impressions).
Oh, sorry about that, then. Emoticons help in those kinds of situations.
|
On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment.
On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
|
Any pressure on Blizzard is good pressure. No LAN, no PC Bangs, no community.
|
On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment. Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills. I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
Actually, OneOther's post was perfect. It takes into account the cases of the poster being a troll and if the poster is actually serious.
Also, I don't think there were any balance changes in SCBW since patch 1.08 which was in 2001. =/ It was being patched non-stop, but that's different from actually changing the gameplay of it. And all the hostility is because change is coming to TL. We now have a larger population (YAY!) with more people to contribute valuable information (YAY!!), but we also have more people who're idiots (No ) who don't know about the history between TL and BW (No ) and thus often disrespect the game which started it all. (No ). This change has also caused a schism (No ) which is now leading to hostility.
|
On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way)
Hey man.
This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap?
I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive)
|
United States10774 Posts
figq: I am not trying to sound enlightened or enlighten anyone (seems like a lost cause). Closer to just being astounded by someone's ignorance and stupidity.
|
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On August 05 2010 09:32 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) Hey man. This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap? I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive)
Not right now, but eventually, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'jump your dick' but lets say you were a top foreign pro gamer and you came to Korea, and you could actually compete at the level the Koreans are at now in BW, you'd definitely get some really hardcore fans. I remember going with Elky to his matches and his fans, both guys and girls would bring him small gifts, once he said he liked hersey's chocolate milk in an interview and the next game he had, he came back with like 12 boxes of hersey's chocolate milk. keke. But I would say in Korea in about a year, this will be the only country where you could say to a random chick, yeah I'm a Diamond Zerg with an 800 rating and she'll say, I'm Zerg too, but I'm a only Platinum on the Korea Server, then you'll think about it and if your dick doesn't shrink you you might have a chance to impress her via your SC2 skills ^^
|
I've never been to korea, but I'd think women would be more interested in progamers having money and being famous than being good at sc.
|
this thread is derptastic.
|
On August 05 2010 09:47 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:32 heishe wrote:On August 04 2010 23:52 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:17 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 04 2010 23:11 MightyAtom wrote:On August 04 2010 23:03 Volkspanzer wrote:Seems there's enough folks out there that enjoy SC2 with or without great figures from South Korea. It would be nice that the country that fostered the trail-blazers of professional E-Sports would do well with it. But whether SC2 is successful in S. Korea or not, does it really matter? I have confidence that the game I enjoy will continue to get support from Blizzard and websites like this, and not because it's a forced idea, but because enough people like it. Don't be scared or emasculated Unfortunately or fortunately it does matter in the area of e-sports. I won't get into it here, but when SC2 gets momentum in Korea and you fall totally in love with the game and your dream is to visit Korea to watch or even one day play in the leagues here, then you tell me if it really did matter or not. ^^ No, it doesn't matter, because S. Korea doesn't have to be the end-all for e-sports. If SC2 can actually popularize e-sports in the west (an obvious goal for the game), then the importance of S. Korea will disappear because the west will enjoy e-sports as well. I wish that will be the case and it would be great if that happened. It would be great if the national banks of the US or EU became sponsors; Celebrities like Tom Cruise and Justin Timberlake were having a break playing SC2, if NBC and ABC made sub-stations broadcasting E-sports all day long, if you could impress a lot of hot random chicks or guys that you play SC2 and are Diamond, if the sports newspaper reported daily on the team trades and scandals between team managers, if there could be permanent e-sports stadiums in the major cities, and you got paid 60 to 100k a year by your sponsors. A lot of you don't get this one point. What is popular in your view, may not be mainstream society popular. Its a big difference. In America or the west, do you really think that playing SC2 will make you cool or add to your nerdiness (sorry to be blunt like that) while in Korea or in Asia, it may not be the case. Even China tries to follow the Korea E-sports model and they are probably the only other example except for Taiwan or Singapore which would have a chance to launch e-sports as something mainstream. Without the mainstream aspect you can't get the long term and high levels of sponsorship. No doubt that in the West SC2 will be huge and maybe once a year it will be the major papers for a huge tournament, maybe even 5 times a years and maybe this will last for the next 3 years, but after that without the mainstream support, its a bunch of nerds running around begging for sponsorship from video card companies (again sorry to be blunt). E-sports in Korea was always on a knife's edge in terms of sponsorship until about 5 years ago, before then only a few teams out of the whole had consistent sponsorship. It was extremely tough to establish in Korea. Now many people can look to the subcultures that are huge in the west like comic con, but again, its the level of what you consider to be e-sports and the sustainability (12 freaking years). I was with wcg when it first began in 2000 and 2001 and I worked with BattleTop in Korea, I helped established the first PC bang franchise in Canada and I worked with one of the biggest PC bang franchises in Korea and I've seen Giyom and Elky and Rekrul througout their entire career. I love to play, but I've always been on the industry side of things, and I'll tell you, I would love it if every country in the world had the potential to support a professional e-sports community, but, as a precedent only Korea has been proven to do so. I just got back from a trip to Taipei and met with Aztec marketing for their SC2 plans, and what they have is great, their entire set-up, in this gov't support youth center with a broadcasting studio, established leagues and 400 internet cafes supporting them and they are like less than 2% of what Korea is. What your definition of e-sports is and what e-sports in Korea is totally different on the scale; so I complete hope that you are right, but regardless of social aspect that because we're all considered nerds in the west to be devoted to this kind of game, my main point is: infrastructure is what allows e-sports to be what it is, otherwise, its just a bunch of amateur leagues and one off tournaments, nothing to make a real career out of. Now, I do have some insider information that there are some very major plans to provide this infrastructure for the west, and if can get by the social aspect of it, then great. But, I hope you get my point how tough it is. You guys shouldn't say, we don't need Korea. Even if it is popularized in the west and some how stabilized, where do you think the big money for the initial sponsorship is still going to be at, where the banks and major corporations have been shelling out millions of USD each year? Where is the west going to get all the data of how much return on e-sports will bring to their company? Korea. And if they say, 'well if its such a great sponsorship, why isn't Korea sponsoring SC2 now? ' What the hell you gonna say? Please people. You better get on your knees now an pray that Korea loves SC2 more than SCBW cause at least some of you guys could experience some of the most beautiful women on the world look at you with adoring eyes, at the very least. 'omg, you protoss player? I love you....' (sorry to be blunt ^^ I don't mean to use nerd in a negative way) Hey man. This is kinda off topic but I think since you mentioned it this is the right situation to ask for it: Can you actually really impress girls if they know that you're really good at SC? (or sc2 when it becomes more popular) Like, she sees you're Diamond Zerg with 800 rating and wants to jump your dick asap? I've always wondered about that. I know there's probably not such a stigmata on hardcore gamers like there is in most western countreys, but I really wonder if it goes that far that girls actually want to get to know these guys and are attracted by them because they're good in eSports (like they find soccer players or baseball players or whatever attractive) Not right now, but eventually, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'jump your dick' but lets say you were a top foreign pro gamer and you came to Korea, and you could actually compete at the level the Koreans are at now in BW, you'd definitely get some really hardcore fans. I remember going with Elky to his matches and his fans, both guys and girls would bring him small gifts, once he said he liked hersey's chocolate milk in an interview and the next game he had, he came back with like 12 boxes of hersey's chocolate milk. keke. But I would say in Korea in about a year, this will be the only country where you could say to a random chick, yeah I'm a Diamond Zerg with an 800 rating and she'll say, I'm Zerg too, but I'm a only Platinum on the Korea Server, then you'll think about it and if your dick doesn't shrink you you might have a chance to impress her via your SC2 skills ^^
LOL sounds great.
|
On August 05 2010 09:29 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment. On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills. I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? Actually, OneOther's post was perfect. It takes into account the cases of the poster being a troll and if the poster is actually serious. Also, I don't think there were any balance changes in SCBW since patch 1.08 which was in 2001. =/ It was being patched non-stop, but that's different from actually changing the gameplay of it. And all the hostility is because change is coming to TL. We now have a larger population (YAY!) with more people to contribute valuable information (YAY!!), but we also have more people who're idiots (No ) who don't know about the history between TL and BW (No ) and thus often disrespect the game which started it all. (No ). This change has also caused a schism (No ) which is now leading to hostility. Thanks, those are good points. About the unfortunate anti-BW post, I call it unfortunate, because I think it had grain of truth in it, despite being very offensive. And this is why it got such hostile responses; it's the grain of truth that teases.
I can assure you that there are people who go the SC2->BW path, or at least get themselves more deeply interested in BW (again), because of SC2 attracting them to the whole starcraft community (again). I wish I was seeing better arguments - like, the fact that battles in SC2 with its smooth pathing aren't as interesting as the choppy clumsiness in BW, where you really have to hold your breath watching, and not being absolutely sure how it will go. And the point is: such issues are a bit counter-intuitive for Blizzard as game developers, but ultimately they don't want the perfectly functioning/looking game; they (as us) want the game that is the best to play. So they will certainly experiment with issues like this one.
|
You mean we won't have to worry about having no chance because of Koreans?! Thanks for the good news junk! :D
|
On August 04 2010 13:51 Anomarad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 13:50 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I want to hear from IdrA/Tasteless/Artosis, they could tell us what it's like there. So you want to hear from the guys who's career depends on the success of this game? What do you think they'll tell you?
Probably the truth.
|
10387 Posts
Starcraft 2 was not the logical improvement, at least for the Zerg lol.. They got the logical shaft -__-
|
On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility?
lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares.
But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better
This is an partially objective mind you, not an opinion. People can look for different values in a game, and the argument "which is a better game" is highly subjective. But the qualities of an Esport are not subjective, they are an agreed upon consensus.
For the purpose of this discussion, lets quantify them as the following: Value as a Spectator Sport, Skill Cap, and Skill Development. In which of these areas is Sc2 not inferior to BW, with an example.
GL ^_^.
|
On August 05 2010 10:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares. But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better ^_^.
I can actually play Starcraft II and have fun. I cannot say the same about Brood War, and neither can the entire world outside of Korea.
This argument is silly and pointless though. Korea doesn't really matter, if they want to stay with BW that's fine. There's no pro BW scene outside of Korea and there is a burgeoning SCII scene.
|
On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy.
Because it does.
It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm.
It is of course possible that you could have a game that was both mechanically easier than SCBW and had less strategy, but if you took SCBW and just added, say, MBS and unlimited control groups, strategy would become mildly more important than it is in SCBW now.
All games exist on a continuum of strategy versus mechanics.
|
On August 05 2010 10:44 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:
It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills.
I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? lol. Nobody is trying to convince you kids why BW is better. Nobody really cares. But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better ^_^.
For somebody totally uninterested in an argument you're trying awfully hard to bait him.
|
On August 05 2010 09:51 UniversalSnip wrote:
I've never been to korea, but I'd think women would be more interested in progamers having money and being famous than being good at sc.
Yeah I was gonna reply to that and you're right on. They're mostly wet for fame not really sc skills.
Someone being good at SC has about the same level of interesting as someone who can juggle a ball. It's not negative, it doesn't drop the pants instantly. It's just... interesting. If juggling a ball like a clown is all you can do while unemployeed and ugly, dont expect to get laid.
|
On August 05 2010 10:46 Ndugu wrote:
I can actually play Starcraft II and have fun. I cannot say the same about Brood War, and neither can the entire world outside of Korea.
This argument is silly and pointless though. Korea doesn't really matter, if they want to stay with BW that's fine. There's no pro BW scene outside of Korea and there is a burgeoning SCII scene.
So its a better game in your opinion. Grats. But an Inferior Esport.
neither can the entire world outside of Korea.
So I'm assuming I bought all other seven million copies of Starcraft 1? I didn't know someone was tapping into my account funds hidden in a bank in sweden. dammit.
There's no pro BW scene outside of Korea and there is a burgeoning SCII scene.
The BW scene outside of Korea at its height is far bigger then the current SC2 scene. In fact, the scene, as of two years ago, was bigger, due to TSL2. Which had a bigger prize pool then all the SC2 tournies combined.
For somebody totally uninterested in an argument you're trying awfully hard to bait him.
orly? I'm trying hard? lolk.
|
United States10774 Posts
On August 05 2010 09:56 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:29 ghrur wrote:On August 05 2010 09:23 figq wrote:On August 05 2010 08:12 OneOther wrote:On August 04 2010 17:11 MockHamill wrote:On August 04 2010 16:47 BearsAreScary wrote:
Do people seriously think SC2 sucks because it has things that "require less skill" like MBS and unit AI that isn't unbelievably retarded.
I apologize for wanting a game where when I tell a group of stalkers to walk down a cliff, THEY DO IT and don't run across the whole map like idiots. Man, the elitist air from these BW people is really outrageous.
All this "mechanical skill" and "work" that you put into BW was literally just learning how to effectively spam APM: telling your units to do what you originally wanted them to do over and over, bugging them out with glitches to fly across mineral patches, make workers attack faster, etc.). How high you can get your APM up is not, in itself, a good or even decent measure of skill. Maybe if SC2 only took 50 APM to be pro at, I'd bite. But 150 APM compared to 300 and people are seriously freaking out?
SC2 requires a different set of skills, as has been said. During battles, your positioning and micro are much more important. Instead of your ability to micro being determined entirely by your APM in BW, now you have to actually do brainwork to determine what units you want to engage and how. Clicking faster no longer means a more advantageous situation. Now you must click more intelligently. You must ration your spells carefully, or wait to flank the opponent at the right time. It is precisely because you cannot salvage your lack of brainwork with a higher APM that makes SC2 as fantastic as it is.
But whatever, the BW elitists will never change their minds. They can have fun with their game, I suppose. This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest. What a god damn ignorant retard. And then this response was probably not the best way to demonstrate superior enlightenment. On August 05 2010 08:24 Meta wrote:
Those posts were clearly masterminded by horrible, lazy noobs who are still butt-hurt about how bad they sucked at BW coming in and saying "screw you" to Korea because they haven't started playing SC2 yet.
[...]
There's a reason why BW players sound a bit "elitest." It seems to correlate with elite cursing skills. I have a question - Blizzard themselves treat Starcraft 2 as the logical improvement of their Starcraft game - which went through SC1, BW, and now SC2. Isn't the reaction similar to the type of reaction to any new major patch? Wasn't the game of Starcraft being patched almost non-stop during all these years? People have gotten used to just adapting to the new patches, after some period of complaining. How is it different/worse now; it's even better, because in our case the previous version of the game (BW) is still active, and will probably be active indefinitely. So why all the hostility? Actually, OneOther's post was perfect. It takes into account the cases of the poster being a troll and if the poster is actually serious. Also, I don't think there were any balance changes in SCBW since patch 1.08 which was in 2001. =/ It was being patched non-stop, but that's different from actually changing the gameplay of it. And all the hostility is because change is coming to TL. We now have a larger population (YAY!) with more people to contribute valuable information (YAY!!), but we also have more people who're idiots (No ) who don't know about the history between TL and BW (No ) and thus often disrespect the game which started it all. (No ). This change has also caused a schism (No ) which is now leading to hostility. Thanks, those are good points. About the unfortunate anti-BW post, I call it unfortunate, because I think it had grain of truth in it, despite being very offensive. And this is why it got such hostile responses; it's the grain of truth that teases.
Please tell me which part of this post had a grain of truth in it. There is none and every bit of it was ridiculous.
This. BW is the most overrated game ever. It was a fun game with a bad interface that got abused by a bunch of Koreans that trained themselves in the art of clicking fast. Maybe this time around matches will be decided by strategy and skill and not by which monkey can click the fastest.
BW is "the most overrated game ever?" It's a game of clicking fast, not strategy and skill? Don't get me wrong, I really like SC2 and am having a lot of fun with it. But to say that kind of idiotic things about Brood War is plain absurd. Everyone who has played a game on iCCup (doesn't even have to be above D rank) can appreciate the beauty of SC:BW. And they can all tell you that it is not an abused game of monkeys clicking fast.
|
10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 10:48 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy. Because it does. It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm. It is of course possible that you could have a game that was both mechanically easier than SCBW and had less strategy, but if you took SCBW and just added, say, MBS and unlimited control groups, strategy would become mildly more important than it is in SCBW now. All games exist on a continuum of strategy versus mechanics.
wow are you stupid? Are you actually saying that a game more mechanically demanding must have less strategy? Plus those strategies you speak of requiring 800 APM are those crazy harass-centric strategies that require insane multi-task.. I doubt you could do that even with all the auto-mechanics in the world, so your point is just retarded. BW might have a stronger, more pervasive standard strategy set than SC2, but it doesn't mean that strategy isn't less important in BW than it is in SC2.
|
Because it does.
It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm.
It is of course possible that you could have a game that was both mechanically easier than SCBW and had less strategy, but if you took SCBW and just added, say, MBS and unlimited control groups, strategy would become mildly more important than it is in SCBW now.
All games exist on a continuum of strategy versus mechanics.
You have no idea what you're talking about ^_^. Fact. Seriously why are you presuming to talk about this with any degree of experience, when in fact, you have zero experience?
|
On August 05 2010 10:53 ArvickHero wrote:
wow are you stupid?
Nope.
Are you actually saying that a game more mechanically demanding must have less strategy?
Yes. And I'm right.
Plus those strategies you speak of requiring 800 APM are those crazy harass-centric strategies that require insane multi-task. I doubt you could do that even with all the auto-mechanics in the world, so your point is just retarded.
This doesn't even make sense.
BW might have a stronger, more pervasive standard strategy set than SC2, but it doesn't mean that strategy isn't less important in BW than it is in SC2.
Indeed it doesn't. But it does mean that the strategy/mechanics "split" in SC2 is more biased towards strategy than the split in SCBW.
You have no idea what you're talking about ^_^. Fact. Seriously why are you presuming to talk about this with any degree of experience, when in fact, you have zero experience?
You gonna make an argument or are you just going to fling insults?
|
I don't know, I really don't think this article really matters when it comes down to the overall scene. Yes, Korea is a big part in Starcraft but maybe now its another country to have SC2 as its esport, sure Koreans will play and perhaps over time even Korea will adopt it and make it big, but I really don't think this matters too much, I have faith that SC2 will grow everywhere (as has been shown in beta) perhaps not in Korea but eventually they will adopt it if it so large everywhere else.
SC2 is a great game, I really don't care what anyone says, if they say it's bad, they most likely haven't played it competitively, or are stuck on B dub, which hey, I can't blame the BW pros, theyre making money doing what they are good at, it's a big risk they don't have to take, unless BW fades out.
|
You gonna make an argument or are you just going to fling insults?
Look you're talking about things you have 0 knowledge about. It isn't an insult, its an Ad-Hominem, except this time it isn't an Logical Fallacy, its Ad-Hominem used in proper context. The core pretext of your argument is patently wrong.
|
On August 05 2010 10:57 Half wrote:
Look you're talking about things you have 0 knowledge about. It isn't an insult,
It is, it just happens to be one that doesn't matter to many people.
its an Ad-Hominem,[ except this time it isn't an Logical Fallacy, its Ad-Hominem used in proper context.
There is no such thing as an ad-hominem that isn't a fallacy.
The core pretext of your argument is patently wrong.
Then you should demonstrate how, instead of resorting to fallacies.
|
Plenty of time for us to be able to contend with the SK players.
|
This thread is awfully serious.
Anyways, in case any of you are interested, superdanielman has tweeted a few times about the matter.
http://twitter.com/superdanielman
superdanielman:
this is so strange, why isn't anybody playing sc2????????????????? wtf my place is packed everyday and so few of them play star2,
superdanielman:
people react to monetary rewards best, that is human nature, you gotta have tourneys, shit load of them, on a daily basis
superdanielman:
to be more precise a game that looks boring, it's fun if u get hooked that was my point, sc2 looks boring, but it's a great game once u know
|
There is no such thing as an ad-hominem that isn't a fallacy.
"The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem
But even if the core pretext of your argument wasn't wrong, you'd still be wrong.
Are you actually saying that a game more mechanically demanding must have less strategy?
No. The mechanical demand has nothing to do with the actual potential for strategy, it just limits the strategies that can be viably executed. Seriously. Think about it. If I could control only 1 unit at a time, the game is not less strategically complex, but strategic complexity is capped by mechanical skill (In this case too much, requiring inhuman apm to execute basic sequences).
On a D- level, the range of strategies a player can execute is less in Starcraft. Which is why the game is more compelling an esport, because theirs always something new to learn. Once your finally able to execute basic muta micro at D, you now have to learn to properly utilize strategically.
Look if you want to argue SC1 is an awful game, go fucking ahead. Thats something subjective. You can argue its too hard, not accessible enough, poor graphics, etc. These are things you may place value in a game, that I may not place as much value.
But you can't argue SC1 is a worse Esport, especially not with a virtually non-existent pool of knowledge to pull substantiated examples from.
|
On August 05 2010 11:04 Half wrote:"The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem
Wiki is wrong. Sorry about that.
No. The mechanical demand has nothing to do with the actual potential for strategy, it just limits the strategies that can be viably executed.
Which is precisely what I said.
On a D- level, the range of strategies a player can execute is less in Starcraft. Which is why the game is more compelling an esport, because theirs always something new to learn. Once your finally able to execute basic muta micro at D, you now have to learn to properly utilize strategically.
Your second claim doesn't follow from the first.
|
teamliquid REALLY needs a purge.
" monkeys clicking fast " have you ever watched or played a game of starcraft? I really dont believe you have.
also to claim to be right on an argument about mechanics and strategy. you must have mechanics and strategy. whats your sc1 and 2 rank?
|
10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 10:55 kzn wrote:Nope. Show nested quote +Are you actually saying that a game more mechanically demanding must have less strategy? Yes. And I'm right. Show nested quote +Plus those strategies you speak of requiring 800 APM are those crazy harass-centric strategies that require insane multi-task. I doubt you could do that even with all the auto-mechanics in the world, so your point is just retarded. This doesn't even make sense. Show nested quote +BW might have a stronger, more pervasive standard strategy set than SC2, but it doesn't mean that strategy isn't less important in BW than it is in SC2. Indeed it doesn't. But it does mean that the strategy/mechanics "split" in SC2 is more biased towards strategy than the split in SCBW. Show nested quote +You have no idea what you're talking about ^_^. Fact. Seriously why are you presuming to talk about this with any degree of experience, when in fact, you have zero experience? You gonna make an argument or are you just going to fling insults?
so... in what way does BW require less strategy than SC2? You may say making your own build order, but that point is completely nulled in a couple of years when standard builds are set. In BW new strategies are still being created anyways, although much more subtle than you'd probably be able to notice.
Btw you were the one who brought up the 800 APM argument, talking about how there are strategies that need 800 APM. This is what you said yourself
It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm.
Which, 90% of this is actual bullshit. No strategy used in BW requires any more than 250 APM. The only time a strategy would actually require 800 APM would be a harass-centric strategy, something like a Muta-allin harassing at 3 places at once... It's pretty obvious you don't even know what you are talking about.
|
also one of the most successful progamers ever had a low apm for his time, does the name savior ring a bell?
edit: also making your sentences short and snappy doesnt make you sound clever. it makes you sound like you have ds.
|
United States10774 Posts
kzn: I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with you here. It seems like you are not making a correct distinction between strategy and execution. Higher APM/multitask requirements in BW does not eliminate strategy in any shape or form. A strategy, in the sense of RTS games, simply means a laid-out plan that combines build orders and tactics. An example of this is the Corsair/Reaver after FE in PvZ. Why is this a strategy? Because it follows a specific set of pathways. You expand to your natural, build a Stargate, Robotics, then attack/harass your opponent with those units. However, as we all know, being execute a high-APM strategy like that is a different story. But this doesn't eliminate or diminish the element of strategy in the game. The strategy is always there - an option for every player to use. And so those players would choose other strategies they find suitable.
|
On August 05 2010 10:48 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 08:45 Kezzer wrote:
Why do people say that the APM requirements of BW eliminate strategy? Strategy isn't some overarching thing over a game that makes you stop and think. Sorry to break it to you people who think you're some kind of military genius, but despite being called an RTS there isn't that much strategy. Because it does. It is patently true that there exists a strategy/build order/composition/timing that is impossible to execute with less than 800apm. This strategy is, thus, completely out of the question for players who can only achieve 400apm. It is of course possible that you could have a game that was both mechanically easier than SCBW and had less strategy, but if you took SCBW and just added, say, MBS and unlimited control groups, strategy would become mildly more important than it is in SCBW now. All games exist on a continuum of strategy versus mechanics.
I'll assume those apm numbers are arbitrary.
You must have not read my post, I clearly said that in SC2 there is very little strategy. The strategy essentially is played out by the mechanics. Tell me any strategy/build order/composition/timing where you need a high amount of apm to execute. There is none. The reason people that have high APM are better, is because they can multi-task better. Doing 2 things at once =/= strategy. You need maybe 30 APM to execute ANY build order, and most timings are based on what you have and are unrelated to APM.
I'll say it again, if you're expecting SC2 to have a significant amount of strategy, you're in the wrong place.
|
On August 05 2010 11:06 ShaperofDreams wrote:
also to claim to be right on an argument about mechanics and strategy. you must have mechanics and strategy.
Seriously?
I'm not sure anyone has made a statement that was more wrong on this site in its entire history.
|
This thread, including the OP, is a load of poppycock.
|
On August 05 2010 11:09 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:06 ShaperofDreams wrote:
also to claim to be right on an argument about mechanics and strategy. you must have mechanics and strategy. Seriously? I'm not sure anyone has made a statement that was more wrong on this site in its entire history.
whats your rank? to argue against professional strategists and "monkeys clicking really fast", who both disagree with you, you cant just be a random scrub, like you are.
also dont claim to know anything about tl
|
On August 05 2010 11:08 Kezzer wrote:
I'll assume those apm numbers are arbitrary.
Of course.
You must have not read my post, I clearly said that in SC2 there is very little strategy.
I don't see how we could know this at this stage in the game's lifetime.
Doing 2 things at once =/= strategy. You need maybe 30 APM to execute ANY build order, and most timings are based on what you have and are unrelated to APM.
Executing a build order is worthless if you don't have the units to make use of it. Multitasking is not, itself, part of strategy, but it enables strategies that would otherwise be impossible.
A hypothetical:
Let us imagine a player who has infinite apm. Lets say he's playing Protoss vs a Zerg player, and he scouts fast Roach pressure. In theory, this player could defend against an infinite number of Roaches with 1 stalker purely by abusing range, with his infinite apm. Because he only has to make one stalker, he has a bunch of money with which to do other stuff, which wildly expands the available strategic options for him in that situation.
My basic argument is patently true if you actually understand what I'm claiming.
I'll say it again, if you're expecting SC2 to have a significant amount of strategy, you're in the wrong place.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you haven't made a very convincing case for it so far.
|
Which is precisely what I said.
No, you said that a game must have less strategic as it becomes more mechanically demanded because of what I just stated. I was pointing out that it was an incomplete portrayal of a whole picture. As a game becomes more mechanically demanding, strategy isn't less relevant or existent.
Your second claim doesn't follow from the first.
Why exactly not. It may not make it a better game, but it does make it a better esport. It simultaneously increases the interest of spectator games, and provides a more uniform learning curve, instead of a depreciating one.
teamliquid REALLY needs a purge.
I'd agree with this, if it weren't for that fact that it would be pretty contrary to TLs interests. Face it, TLs changed. SC2s a great game, it isn't as great as BW, but still good nonetheless. SC2 represents an opportunity for the foreign esport scene to grow, and for TL. One I'd laugh if they didn't take. Growth however, comes at a price, and your looking at it. If he said that about any other old game, it wouldn't warrant a ban. And face it, BWs becoming increasingly "just another old game" for many new members here.
I don't see how we could know this at this stage in the game's lifetime.
Why? Would you be saying the same thing If I said this pertaining to MW2? You're making these statements assuming that SC2 will have a development curve identical to SC1, which would require identical preconditions. SC1 continued to develop strategically over the years precisely because of deep mechanical elements. As people pushed their mechanical skill so the limit, so were they able to master new forms of playstyles which were not previously possible.
SC2, patently, does not have the same mechanical depth, so it will also not have the same development curve.
|
On August 05 2010 11:11 ShaperofDreams wrote:
whats your rank? to argue against professional strategists and "monkeys clicking really fast", who both disagree with you, you cant just be a random scrub, like you are.
Yes, you can. If my argument is wrong, then it is wrong regardless of who made it. If it is right, it is right regardless of who made it.
In both cases, it can be identified as right or wrong without reference to who made it.
also dont claim to know anything about tl
umad?
|
|
|
On August 05 2010 11:13 Half wrote:
No, you said that a game must have less strategic as it becomes more mechanically demanded because of what I just stated. I was pointing out that it was an incomplete portrayal of a whole picture. As a game becomes more mechanically demanding, strategy isn't less relevant or existent.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that what I meant was that it becomes less strategic on its own strategy/mechanics continuum.
Why exactly not. It may not make it a better game, but it does make it a better esport. It simultaneously increases the interest of spectator games, and provides a more uniform learning curve, instead of a depreciating one.
The fact that there is more to learn doesn't follow from a mechanics-biased focus of a game. How much there is to learn in a game is a feature independent of the strategy/mechanics focus.
|
you are so thick. do you know what sources are? the entire site of tl with all of its casters, its pros, its professional matches in both sc1 and sc2 are a big source against you, while you are nothing, and you have nothing, except your own words, which have no weight.
yes arguments are either right or wrong, are you 13?
|
The fact that there is more to learn doesn't follow from a mechanics-biased focus of a game. How much there is to learn in a game is a feature independent of the strategy/mechanics focus.
That isn't how a sport, "e" or not works. How much strategic would their be if Football was a deterministic turn based game where ever play worked out the same? What if Basketball was a top down turn based strategy game?
A games strategic development is considered as it happens in relation to an esport, not within some vague, hypothetical spectrum.
Mechanics is also part of strategy. Time is a resource, and it is a strategy to know how to use it.
You cannot isolate these components individually and say "IF WE REMOVE EVERYTHING FROM THE GAME EXCEPT FACTOR X IT REALLY ISNT A VERY GOOD ESPORT". Well no shit.
|
On August 05 2010 11:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
you are so thick. do you know what sources are? the entire site of tl with all of its casters, its pros, its professional matches in both sc1 and sc2 are a big source against you, while you are nothing, and you have nothing, except your own words, which have no weight.
yes arguments are either right or wrong, are you 13?
You're starting to froth at the mouth, dude.
Not everyone agrees with you that all of your "sources" are in your favor. It might come as a shock to you, but thats life.
That isn't how a sport, "e" or not works. How much strategic would their be if Football was a deterministic turn based game where ever play worked out the same? What if Basketball was a top down turn based strategy game?
I'm not entirely sure where determinism enters into this. Football is certainly a game where mechanics is extremely important, at the demonstrable expense of strategy. Basketball is likewise.
If you're saying a good sport is one which commands maximum viewership, then I might be inclined to agree with you, as feats of mechanical skill are more interesting to more people than feats of strategic skill. But that definition of a "good sport" isn't itself any more than an opinion.
|
10387 Posts
Kzn, I'm not sure if you understand this at all, but SC2 has the exact same strategic potential and limitations as BW has. Mechanics might be a limiting factor, yes, but there are Progamers that only play w/ 230-300 APM and can still execute every strategy in the book. You say the strategies are limited by the mechanics.. but really those Strategies aren't limited by mechanics, but by MULTITASK. If you sucked at multitasking at BW, then you aren't going to be much better at it in SC2.
Just because there's MBS and Automine doesn't mean that it opens up even more strategic potential for SC2, it's still limited by the human limit, which is multitasking. SC2 is no more strategic than BW is.
|
I'm not entirely sure where determinism enters into this. Football is certainly a game where mechanics is extremely important, at the demonstrable expense of strategy. Basketball is likewise.
If you're saying a good sport is one which commands maximum viewership, then I might be inclined to agree with you, as feats of mechanical skill are more interesting to more people than feats of strategic skill. But that definition of a "good sport" isn't itself any more than an opinion.
Certainly not. Either or or.
But as we've previously established, SC2 doesn't possess and deeper of a strategy. The strategy is simply more accessible. Meaning it will emerge quicker, but be depleted quicker as well.
SC2 does not have an inferior strategic component at a competitive level then does BW. In fact, in many aspects, it requires more. Once you factor an equal amount of strategy+Differing amounts of mechanica skill+Differing entertainment of viewership, its incredibly clear which game comes on top.
I've seen vastly far more BW games where a players strategy the deciding factor then SC2 games (no, and not just because I've seen more BW games). Go find me a SINGLE SC2 game where a player preforms an amazing strategy that demonstrates amazing strategic skill. You'll find that it is just as rare as BW.
|
On August 05 2010 11:25 ArvickHero wrote:
Kzn, I'm not sure if you understand this at all, but SC2 has the exact same strategic potential and limitations as BW has. Mechanics might be a limiting factor, yes, but there are Progamers that only play w/ 230-300 APM and can still execute every strategy in the book.
No, there aren't. There are strategies in "the book" that cannot be executed by a single human player on the planet. They might be shitty, for all we know, because we've never seen them, but they exist.
You say the strategies are limited by the mechanics.. but really those Strategies aren't limited by mechanics, but by MULTITASK. If you sucked at multitasking at BW, then you aren't going to be much better at it in SC2.
Multitasking is part of your mechanics. Its not a strategic skill.
|
On August 05 2010 11:27 Half wrote:
But as we've previously established, SC2 doesn't possess and deeper of a strategy. The strategy is simply more accessible. Meaning it will emerge quicker, but be depleted quicker as well.
When did we establish this? O_o
|
On August 05 2010 11:29 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:27 Half wrote:
But as we've previously established, SC2 doesn't possess and deeper of a strategy. The strategy is simply more accessible. Meaning it will emerge quicker, but be depleted quicker as well. When did we establish this? O_o
That was my original response to you, to which you replied "THAT WAS MY POINT HURF DURF".
Multitasking is part of your mechanics. Its not a strategic skill.
This is once again, objectively wrong, or semantics. You may be given a choice between two options. You can only preform one. Which do you pick?
That is strategy.
|
10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 11:28 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:25 ArvickHero wrote:
Kzn, I'm not sure if you understand this at all, but SC2 has the exact same strategic potential and limitations as BW has. Mechanics might be a limiting factor, yes, but there are Progamers that only play w/ 230-300 APM and can still execute every strategy in the book. No, there aren't. There are strategies in "the book" that cannot be executed by a single human player on the planet. They might be shitty, for all we know, because we've never seen them, but they exist. Show nested quote +You say the strategies are limited by the mechanics.. but really those Strategies aren't limited by mechanics, but by MULTITASK. If you sucked at multitasking at BW, then you aren't going to be much better at it in SC2. Multitasking is part of your mechanics. Its not a strategic skill.
Same goes for SC2. Strategies in BW are limited by multitask, which is also the case in SC2. Both have the same strategic potential and limits, which is only limited by multi-task. BTW I didn't say multitasking was a strategic skill, you have poor reading skills.
|
On August 05 2010 11:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
yes arguments are either right or wrong, are you 13?
The point is that they are right or wrong regardless of who is saying them, so what does his skill level matter?
On August 05 2010 11:19 Half wrote:
Mechanics is also part of strategy. Time is a resource, and it is a strategy to know how to use it.
I think this is the biggest reason why lowering the mechanical requirement actually hurts strategy, finding the best way to use your time becomes less important the lower the mechanics needed.
|
On August 05 2010 11:28 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:25 ArvickHero wrote:
Kzn, I'm not sure if you understand this at all, but SC2 has the exact same strategic potential and limitations as BW has. Mechanics might be a limiting factor, yes, but there are Progamers that only play w/ 230-300 APM and can still execute every strategy in the book. No, there aren't. There are strategies in "the book" that cannot be executed by a single human player on the planet. They might be shitty, for all we know, because we've never seen them, but they exist. Show nested quote +You say the strategies are limited by the mechanics.. but really those Strategies aren't limited by mechanics, but by MULTITASK. If you sucked at multitasking at BW, then you aren't going to be much better at it in SC2. Multitasking is part of your mechanics. Its not a strategic skill.
any strategies that are in the book but not realistically usable are just bad strategies, and they will exist in sc2 equally, because the human mind will always think beyond human capability.
reaver corsair is a bad strategy for a 50 apm player in bw.
to play sc2 at a top level (assuming it gets competitive) you will need the same amount of apm\multitasking, which is the max amount that it is possible to have. having more than 450 apm consistently is not possible without some phenomenon, and its not like there aren't hundreds trying for 12 hours a day.
|
On August 05 2010 11:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:29 kzn wrote:On August 05 2010 11:27 Half wrote:
But as we've previously established, SC2 doesn't possess and deeper of a strategy. The strategy is simply more accessible. Meaning it will emerge quicker, but be depleted quicker as well. When did we establish this? O_o That was my original response to you, to which you replied "THAT WAS MY POINT HURF DURF".[
No, it wasn't. Your original response to me only established that mechanical requirements eliminate certain strategies from the total pool of possible strategies. This does not mean that all strategies will be depleted quicker, and it certainly doesn't mean it will happen quicker in SC2 than SCBW - if anything, it means the opposite.
This is once again, objectively wrong, or semantics. You may be given a choice between two options. You can only preform one. Which do you pick?
That is strategy.
You are talking about the decisionmaking portion of Multitasking. This is not what I am talking about. If you have 1200apm, you can produce units (let us say this costs 100apm) and do 1100apm of other stuff as well. If you have 400apm, you can only do 300apm of other stuff.
Multitasking involves the making of decisions, which is a strategic skill, but it also involves executing as many decisions as possible, which is a mechanical skill.
|
You can't just take all of your examples to the extreme. That would be like me saying: Basketball is a stupid sport to play as a team, because if someone just learned how to make every single conceivable shot possible and never miss, that would completely erase the need for any set plays or even a coach or even any other players on the court.
Fact is, no one has 1200 apm, every one of them being used for something different and useful. If you have 400 apm, good for you. You can always use that 400 apm more cleanly, or raise that 400 apm in order to have better execution and multitasking.
Also, since you said Multitasking involves the making of decisions, which is a strategic skill, but it also involves executing as many decisions as possible, which is a mechanical skill. doesn't that equate multitasking with decisions and execution thereof?
Thus, more APM = more multitasking = more decisions = more strategy
which I think refutes your original strategy/mechanics continuum idea.
|
Wow TL elitists can get really intense when they are debating about Starcraft....
Most of these posts are saying the exact same thing over and over
|
On August 05 2010 11:44 KumquatExpress wrote:
Thus, more APM = more multitasking = more decisions = more strategy
which I think refutes your original strategy/mechanics continuum idea.
Precisely. But consider what something like MBS actually does - it reduces the amount of APM required to execute a given decision. In other words, it increases your effective APM - thus more multitasking, more decisions, and more strategy.
|
yeah...like MBS leads to ==> more multitasking.
|
No, it wasn't. Your original response to me only established that mechanical requirements eliminate certain strategies from the total pool of possible strategies. This does not mean that all strategies will be depleted quicker, and it certainly doesn't mean it will happen quicker in SC2 than SCBW - if anything, it means the opposite.
Their is no "pool of total possible strategies". This just goes to show your lack of understanding in strategy games. Pure strategy is either a perfect strategy (checkers), or one based on luck. (rps).
Assuming it is a well constructed game, this means that humans will not have reached either in a reasonable amount of time, or here, simply balanced out. However, just as time can be measured universally through entropy, the development of a game can be measured through its point away from this "singularity" so to speak. Within the context of these games, their only is a metagame, which consists of a rapidly changing pool of strategies.
This is the "pool" you are talking about.
Two identical games, on two different "timeframes" away from being "beaten" (comes a matter of execution or chance), will have different metagames. The metagame of a game very close to being broken is not necessarily bigger then the metagame of a game that has just started being played.
In fact, most often, the opposite is true. Strategic diversity, and thus, decision, are most prominent in games that are not developed.
In the metagame of SC:BW, and SC2, the amount of strategies contained within its pool have absolutely no direct correlation to do with its development, inextricably tied to its mechanical deptht.
tl;dr
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Wow TL elitists can get really intense when they are debating about Starcraft....
Most of these posts are saying the exact same thing over and over
Kzns a WoW elitist. TL elitists are generally much more awesome :D.
|
On August 05 2010 11:50 Half wrote:
Their is no "pool of total possible strategies". This just goes to show your lack of understanding in strategy games. Pure strategy is either a perfect strategy (checkers), or one based on luck. (rps).
Go is a pure strategy game in which mechanical skills are worthless, and it is based on neither of those.
It is not clear that there is in fact perfect strategy in Go at all. The addition of mechanical skills rapidly increases the number of variables that bear on "perfect" strategy.
There is a pool of all possible strategies. There might be one that is optimal, but that doesn't impact my point much.
Assuming it is a well constructed game, this means that humans will not have reached either in a reasonable amount of time, or here, simply balanced out. However, just as time can be measured universally through entropy, the development of a game can be measured through its point away from this "singularity" so to speak. Within the context of these games, their only is a metagame, which consists of a rapidly changing pool of strategies.
This is the "pool" you are talking about.
Two identical games, on two different "timeframes" away from being "beaten" (comes a matter of execution or chance), will have different metagames. The metagame of a game very close to being broken is not necessarily bigger then the metagame of a game that has just started being played.
In fact, most often, the opposite is true. Strategic diversity, and thus, decision, are most prominent in games that are not developed.
In the metagame of SC:BW, and SC2, the amount of strategies contained within its pool have absolutely no direct correlation to do with its development, inextricably tied to its mechanical deptht.
tl;dr
You have no idea what you're talking about.
This doesn't even make sense.
|
Go is a pure strategy game in which mechanical skills are worthless, and it is based on neither of those.
You do not understand me. It will ultimately end in one of those, but humans simply cannot calculate it. I am using pure strategies games to illustrate how exactly strategy works, which you seem to be missing the fucking point.
It is a LINEAR PROGRESSION. A "Pool of strategies" only exists at any given point on that linear progression, which begins at an infinite possible strategies, and eventually becomes narrowed down to one (such as checkers), or based on luck/external factors (RPS/Tic-Tac Toe). This pool of strategies that exist at any given point consists of a metagame.
Your saying if mechanical requirements were loosened, and we progressed up this faster, we would have a bigger pool of strategies. Which is just complete wrong lols.
|
On August 05 2010 11:54 Half wrote:
You do not understand me. It will ultimately end in one of those
I do not agree.
|
On August 04 2010 13:44 Wolf wrote:
In my opinion, it'll take a bit longer. We need to be patient. Once OSLs etc start swapping, things will change.
I agree with this.
I'd also add that most PC bangs in Korea don't have the system specs to run SC2 the way it should be run.
I'd also add that $60 is pretty expensive in Korean won terms, so in Korea, Blizzard should really go with a more longterm sales strategy, targetting long term popularity rather than short term profit (give away near-free versions to PC bangs for 1 year while SC2 catches on in the pro scene. Then require PC bangs to pay).
I'd also add that SC2 does kind of suck compared to SC1. I hate how they took mobile static defense out (mines, lurkers, etc). Only mobile static defense that's still in the game is siege mode tanks, and that's the only thing that's adding any really fun positional play into the game.
You just don't see sc1 style PvT anymore. lame
|
in the end who cares? as long as the game still has a lot of players then i am happy...
|
On August 05 2010 11:55 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:54 Half wrote:
You do not understand me. It will ultimately end in one of those I do not agree.
That is literally mathematically impossible, unless you're being really contrived and hyperliteral here and talking about quantum movements in a true "real time" strategic game, which is just retarded.
You have a set of player inputted variables working under preset rules. Eventually, this has to develop, mathematically, into an end result, or a random variation.
Obviously this may require computers beyond our capabilities to solve. But it exists.
|
On August 05 2010 08:50 G3nXsiS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 15:43 vek wrote:On August 04 2010 15:37 G3nXsiS wrote:
I honestly don't understand why Koreans are not excited about Starcraft 2. This is when I start to blame Broodwar. It needs to die in order for starcraft 2 to be released. Until then starcraft 2 will never be successful in Korea. Why should Brood War die to make way for Starcraft 2 when Starcraft 2 is currently the inferior game? I want Starcraft 2 to be better, I really do. As it stands right at this point in time Brood War is better. I hope that Blizzard knows what they are doing and addresses the issues with battle.net, regions, lan and fix some of the bland units/gameplay. Then we will have a worthy replacement. As others have said, give it time. For now the OP is an accurate reflection of what is happening right now in Korea and lines up with how I feel about the game. Are you kidding me? Broodwar a better game? Its a better game because the gamers have perfected it. It took years of development to get to that level. Starcraft 2, however is capable of exceeding that level and should therefore be given more attention. While the level of play might not be the same as Broodwar right now, people need to play it in order to make it better.
It's nothing about the level of play or how many years it has been out. It's about how interesting the units are, the graphics, the sounds.
In my opinion Brood War blows Starcraft 2 out of the water in all those areas.
I find most of the units in Starcraft 2 extremely boring to control and watch. Most of them just attack, some have a random gimmick, some have interesting uses but are hard to see. Colossus vs Reaver/Shuttle. Not only is Reaver/Shuttle more interesting to use as a player, it is more interesting to fight against and more interesting to watch. Colossus just walks up a cliff and attacks. There is nothing dynamic, exciting or risky about it so no one cheers when a Colossus kills 10 drones.
An example of an interesting ability that is hard to see is Point Defence Drone vs Dark Swarm. They have the same effect but PDD is almost impossible to see in the middle of a fight whereas Dark Swarm is immediately obvious. Is this more of graphical problem for some units/abilities? I think so.
Sure the graphics in Starcraft 2 are impressive, even I was impressed by them. The problem is that once you get over them they turn out to be detrimental to the gameplay and gameplay is what matters. In battles everything becomes muddled, even as a player it is hard to see what is happening. For a spectator it is impossible sometimes. Brood War has "old" graphics but the designers did such a fantastic job with the shapes, colours and contrast of the units and attack animations that everything is unique and easily identifiable. This is an area Starcraft 2 really needs to improve on.
The sounds. Starcraft 2 is more realistic, it sounds like a movie. The problem is that it is not a movie - it's a game. In a game you have to be able to tell what is going on. Sound plays an important role in informing the player and spectators as to what is happening on screen. Again, Brood War gets an A+ in this area. Unique sounds, good range of frequencies used and even in the middle of a huge fight nothing gets mixed up. Starcraft 2 suffers (zerg is the worst) from muddled sounds that all blend in to the point where it is a bunch of noise. More realistic? Yep. Easy to understand? Hell no.
I think Starcraft 2 has fallen into the trap of a lot of modern games, the designers forget that they are games meant to be played. Gameplay is king and it is made up of more than just mechanics.
I haven't even touched on how awful battle.net 2.0 is yet. I think what Blizzard should have gone for with battle.net 2.0 is to "make you feel like a progamer". When you join a 1v1 the loading screen should burst into music just like a real Starleague. It should display stats on the 2 players.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WhL71.png)
It should make you feel like you are jaedong coming into the finals and get you pumped about the match. Battle.net right now just feels stale, empty and featureless.
So yeah, it's not a huge mystery to me why I don't get as excited when I play SC2, why it isn't doing well in Korea and why some people aren't sold that Starcraft 2 is the second coming like others make it out to be.
Do other people not see the flaws? There is so much unwarranted hype around Starcraft 2 at the moment... We should be focusing on helping Blizzard improve the game so it is a worthy successor to the best RTS of all time. Hopefully in the next few years we can crown a new king. As it stands right now though, Brood War is a no contest winner.
|
but more fundamentally, the game itself is not as good as the first one.
An obvious bias.
|
On August 05 2010 12:10 larjarse wrote:An obvious bias.
I just posted this, but I challenge anyone to find examples of how SC2 is a better Esport, or even close to equal. The guy who took it failed pretty hard.
But because you seem so convinced in Sc2s superiority as an Esport, please, tell me why its better
This is an partially objective mind you, not an opinion. People can look for different values in a game, and the argument "which is a better game" is highly subjective. But the qualities of an Esport are not subjective, they are an agreed upon consensus.
For the purpose of this discussion, lets quantify them as the following: Value as a Spectator Sport, Skill Cap, and Skill Development. In which of these areas is Sc2 not inferior to BW, with an example.
GL ^_^.
I dare ya to try.
|
I don't think this thread is about the legitimacy of Starcraft 2 as an eSport. Rather, it is the discussion of the various articles in Korean media speaking to what appears to be the lack of success for Starcraft 2.
|
On August 05 2010 10:49 Half wrote:
The BW scene outside of Korea at its height is far bigger then the current SC2 scene. In fact, the scene, as of two years ago, was bigger, due to TSL2. Which had a bigger prize pool then all the SC2 tournies combined.
So wrong, just adding up the prizes in the current Tournaments thread/feature, the foreigner tournaments running over the next month alone worldwide have over $50000 worth of prizes, absolutely amazing for a game that has been out for just over a week.
|
On August 05 2010 12:36 RifleCow wrote:
I don't think this thread is about the legitimacy of Starcraft 2 as an eSport. Rather, it is the discussion of the various articles in Korean media speaking to what appears to be the lack of success for Starcraft 2.
Nah. The OP was, but like 99% of the posters just laughed at that and started talking about something else.
If conversations couldn't evolve, it would be pretty lame.
Besides, the arguments still pertain to the subject, albeit somewhat vaguely. The overarching concept is still the potential for success that Starcraft 2 has.
Of course, it's mostly people just telling other people that what they said doesn't make sense.
Personally, I would love it if SC2 became a really big esport. If not, then I will just play it because it's fun.
|
A Korean friend of mine who is ranked 3rd in 1V1 diamond league said storm was too nerfed and found it really lame. SC2 to be a great game must have more and more powerful spells and abilities that can change the outcome of a match in a matter of seconds.
|
If you even argue that SC BW is 10x the game SC2 will ever be then you are dumb. End of discussion, there is no factor that makes SC2 more fun then BW other than "LOL ITS EASIER"
How to sell a modern day video game: Make it as easy and accesible as possible no matter how bad it makes the game. I mean look at CoD, Halo 2,3 , any mmorpg, its about time that Blizzard is catching on and it seems like it has worked
|
I even think wc3 was a better Esport game. There were a lot of abilities and a lot more possibilities.
|
Isn't there an age restriction to be 18 or over to play StarCraft 2 in PC bangs or whatnot (or even purchase?...)
I'm assuming there are a lot of youngsters playing in PC bangs or just playing games generally, but if the age restriction is enforced a lot of them won't be able to play and only the adults time are counted.
Also, you have to have a battle.net account, set it up, yada yada ya, the computer setups might not even be enough for SC2, alot of unaccounted data that could lead some bias statistics.
And guys, we're still 2 expansions away til we see the final version of StarCraft 2 anyway. Is StarCraft 2 Wings of Liberty our broodwar game? no. Is StarCraft 2: Heart of the Swarm be our broodwar game? we don't know. Is StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void be our broodwar game?
Again, we don't know. We have to work with what we got.
|
On August 05 2010 11:13 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 11:08 Kezzer wrote:
I'll assume those apm numbers are arbitrary. Of course. Show nested quote +You must have not read my post, I clearly said that in SC2 there is very little strategy. I don't see how we could know this at this stage in the game's lifetime. Show nested quote +Doing 2 things at once =/= strategy. You need maybe 30 APM to execute ANY build order, and most timings are based on what you have and are unrelated to APM. Executing a build order is worthless if you don't have the units to make use of it. Multitasking is not, itself, part of strategy, but it enables strategies that would otherwise be impossible. A hypothetical: Let us imagine a player who has infinite apm. Lets say he's playing Protoss vs a Zerg player, and he scouts fast Roach pressure. In theory, this player could defend against an infinite number of Roaches with 1 stalker purely by abusing range, with his infinite apm. Because he only has to make one stalker, he has a bunch of money with which to do other stuff, which wildly expands the available strategic options for him in that situation. My basic argument is patently true if you actually understand what I'm claiming. Show nested quote +I'll say it again, if you're expecting SC2 to have a significant amount of strategy, you're in the wrong place. You're entitled to your opinion, but you haven't made a very convincing case for it so far.
Two things:
First, a stalker could not infinitely kite roaches due to map restrictions/possible flanks with roaches etc.
Secondly I'll state the obvious, but for my argument's sake bear with me. No one has infinite APM. Believe it or not but there is somewhat of a soft cap. A limit to any humans abilities to control. So, the people seeking to get better must make the best use of their APM, it becomes another limited resource. If your argument was for a computer playing, it would make sense, but not for a human. A pro of even the highest caliber cannot possible change counter someone's build order with one unit, they could not have the micro unless they could stop doing everything else.
Now back to my original point. Your fact of someone with infinite APM executing BO's that other people can't do is true, but no one has infinite APM or any where close to it, and never will have. APM is just another precious resource that is better spent not on build orders.
|
kzn, your whole argument can be refuted by the following scenario:
Imagine if MBS and automine were patched into brood war. By your logic, this would decrease the amount of actions players need to take to execute their strategies, leaving the players with a set of unused actions which they could spend on greater multitasking, micro and other things.
However, it would not change their build order, their unit composition goal, their timings or anything else that we could agree is "strategy." Those factors are all limitations of the game itself. Just because the players would have more time to harass, micro and use other TACTICS doesn't mean the game suddenly gets more strategically deep. It would still have all the exact same strategies that BW has right now, regardless of how much APM it takes to execute them.
Therefore, requiring more or less APM does not add or subtract from the strategic depth of a strategy game. The strategic depth is a limitation of the game itself, and personally I think BW and SC2 are fairly close strategically (right now) so this whole argument is worthless.
|
|
|
16982 Posts
Just because something is the biggest doesn't mean it's particularly successful. SC2 may have sold well in the states and in Europe, but it's simply not selling as well as it was projected to in Korea.
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea
You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010.
my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here.
|
On August 06 2010 14:00 Kennigit wrote:OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010. my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here.
I simply don't see OP's issue as being an "issue".
SC2 is free for WoW player subscription. It can be bought on time cards. It can finally be bought on retail for 60 USD.
Obviously most players would go for timecards. The sales figures don't include timecards. Therefore, the sale projections are inaccurate with regard to Korea.
|
On August 05 2010 13:43 OHtRUe wrote:
If you even argue that SC BW is 10x the game SC2 will ever be then you are dumb. End of discussion, there is no factor that makes SC2 more fun then BW other than "LOL ITS EASIER"
How to sell a modern day video game: Make it as easy and accesible as possible no matter how bad it makes the game. I mean look at CoD, Halo 2,3 , any mmorpg, its about time that Blizzard is catching on and it seems like it has worked
I'm not even going to join the argument, but things like this really annoy me.
"There is no way you can even debate this. If you try, you are stupid because I am obviously right. Can we all go home now"?
You can feel the smugness miles away. Please please please stop acting superior. If you really think that there is nothing to discuss, then please stop discussing. If your views on this are really so set in stone, posting here is nothing but trolling.
By the way: I would think that the best and most objective way to quantify a game's suitability as a sport would be the number of people willing to watch it. You can debate your skill caps and your graphics and your micro and your macro all you want, but what makes a spectator sport are the spectators, not the players. I could make up 10 games which require 10 times more skill than either Starcraft, but none of that matters if no one cares to watch. We'll just have to see.
|
![[image loading]](http://funny.picturepie.com/images/arguing_internet_retarded.jpg)
I'm probably going to get warned by a humorless mod but ah well; I think that should lighten the tension.
And as a person who loved Brood Wars... I can honestly say I enjoy Starcraft 2 way more than I ever did, than the predecessor. Of course you SC:BW TL vets would obviously object that, but that should come as no surprise, since you've played BW all these years. Either way, SC2 is more user-friendly to newer plays- is that so wrong? Whether it becomes popular or not in S.Korea, the newly announced GomTV tournament is going to spark mass interests to the world if not S.Korea.
User was warned for this post
|
On August 06 2010 14:06 nihoh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:00 Kennigit wrote:OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010. my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here. I simply don't see OP's issue as being an "issue". SC2 is free for WoW player subscription. It can be bought on time cards. It can finally be bought on retail for 60 USD. Obviously most players would go for timecards. The sales figures don't include timecards. Therefore, the sale projections are inaccurate with regard to Korea.
We are not talking about sales figures in Korea. We are talking about time spent playing games by players, which is how Korea rates games since 1/2 the games at PC Bangs are free anyways. Seriously, if you go into a PC room here you will find 2 maybe 3 people playing. Hell, I see more people playing Kart Rider~
**Edit**
But I do agree with people saying that once, if, SC2 games start appearing on TV here then more people will play. You cannot believe how "bandwagony" Koreans are.
|
Quite honestly, if it does very well in the rest of the world, it may not need to do amazingly well in Korea for it to succeed.
Sure, that'd be nice, but from what we've seen so far it will be able to support itself quite well outside of Korea.
I'd also like to point out that if you compared Starcraft 1, pre-Brood War, a week after its release to Starcraft 2 a week after its release the comparison would likely be much more in SC2's favor.
You can't reasonably compare a game with 12 years of balancing behind it aimed solely at making it as even a playing field as possible to a game that's been playable for a matter of months.
|
I would just like to point out that in South Korea, SC2 is free to play at the moment with the open beta thing that they are doing.
I would imagine it has a pretty big impact on sales when people can just make a b.net account and play it for free.
|
There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
|
|
|
someone posted on the Odds and Ends
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=139557
that PC Bang owners are complaining about SC2 because instead of paying $60USD (or whatever the Korean price was) to purchase the game, blizzard forced them to purchase game time just like WoW subscription. the fee for SC2 alone was 20% of the normal fee charged at PC Bang, which is ridiculously high from a business perspective.
|
On August 06 2010 20:30 wholegrain wrote:
There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
That makes absolutely NO sense at all. I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what but yes, they took out some spells. They also added more than BW ever had, this is including the queen and larvae, Terran mules, Protoss chrono boost, and unit spells in general. Holy cow, have you even played the game?
|
On August 06 2010 20:30 wholegrain wrote:
There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
also mutalisk micro, tank hold fire micro, patrol micro~
|
Calgary25980 Posts
Why do we still look to Korea? They're no more relevent in SC2 than China or the internet or any other country at this point.
|
On August 06 2010 20:35 koOma wrote:
GomTV.
Yeah, no shit. That is great news.
|
On August 06 2010 22:34 Chill wrote:
Why do we still look to Korea? They're no more relevent in SC2 than China or the internet or any other country at this point.
Chill you make a fairly interesting point here... I still look to Korea because they are like the holy land for e-sports.
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
|
yes it's only been a week which is too early to conclude anything.
Not to mention the fact that there are two expansions to come with who knows how many patches that will follow.
|
Korea is not as important as people believe. Even though Starcraft was a very successfull as an e-sport in Korea it never spread abroad. Starcraft II as an e-sport is not dependet on a huge success in Korea, its dependet on a success as an e-sport in the US and Europe, probably more US than Europe since they are the biggest market for video games.
|
Korea is the only place where big money will be put up regularily. So yeah, Korea is pretty important for SC2.
|
On August 06 2010 22:57 Zoltan wrote:
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
You honestly believe any of the guys, who bitch about Starcraft 2 care about facts? They want the game to fail, because they had some expectations that weren't fulfilled or some stuff like that.
To be honest, I laugh everytime I read that broodwar is superior and there's no discussion to it. It's not only outdated, but a nightmare for every casual gamer and beginners.
The game is far away from being a failure, it's going to become the most sucessful strategy game and unless there is a huge change in popularity, we shouldn't care that much about Korea at the moment.
|
On August 06 2010 23:08 koOma wrote:
Korea is the only place where big money will be put up regularily. So yeah, Korea is pretty important for SC2.
I dunno about that, but Korea definitely does represent huge opportunities for tournaments and coverage. I don't know why anyone would not care about Korea's reception to the game
|
On August 06 2010 23:12 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:08 koOma wrote:
Korea is the only place where big money will be put up regularily. So yeah, Korea is pretty important for SC2. I dunno about that, but Korea definitely does represent huge opportunities for tournaments and coverage. I don't know why anyone would not care about Korea's reception to the game
Still why would a whole country change in a day or a month.
Compare it to soccer.. the sport.. somebody invents soccer 2 which is superior somehow. Would every player / tv station / fan switch in a few days?
If you think comparing those two sports is a way off. Compare it to other computer games that are played professionally.
I think Starcraft 2 is the future of Esports in Korea.
|
On August 06 2010 23:23 RaZzy wrote:
Still why would a whole country change in a day or a month.
Compare it to soccer.. the sport.. somebody invents soccer 2 which is superior somehow. Would every player / tv station / fan switch in a few days?
If you think comparing those two sports is a way off. Compare it to other computer games that are played professionally.
I think Starcraft 2 is the future of Esports in Korea.
not too sure about that.
the reality is, there are tons of games available in Korea and elsewhere. the market share held by each game is very tiny. the gaming industry is also well known for quick ups n downs. who would have predicted Infinity Ward's demise after such a huge success?
i think Blizz's approach to esport is too inflexible for SC2, so its success in esport will be questionable.
|
Hey guys what's going on in this thread?
Oh... Same conversation, same talking points, same complaints, same praise, same points and counter points...
Sweet, which side would you like me to take? I think by now i have everything memorized and it's just a matter of regurgitating what has already been said a thousand times.
|
With the GSL starting; it would be financially beneficial for Koreans to start playing Starcraft 2 at the higher tiers of play. Whether you dislike Starcraft 2 or not; Starcraft 2 becoming popular is better for the ESports world. Starcraft 1, for the most part is at it's peak for world wide recognition, and for ESports to become big outside Korea, a game's peak needs to be much higher.
I could be wrong, but doesn't the GSL first prize surpass, or at least compare to the highest payout of any SC1 tourny? When it comes to advertising, popularity, and bringing in the foreign community into Korea; large sums of money is very is important.
I do love BW; and I would be very sad to see it disappear, but if more and more money is being thrown at the SC2 scene, it doesn't take great insight to see that this is where players and teams will be going.
|
I beleive out of the 11m sold copies worldwide of SC 6m were sold in Korea only so thats more than 50% of Blizzard profit from one small country. So saying that Korea is not important for Blizzard is talkin bullshit.
After the "rumors" that SC2 is not doing so well in Korea its logical for blizzard to invest 500k $$ per year in big tournaments so that their game will start selling. Imagine if they repeat their inital 6m sells with SC2 too and with 2 more expansion coming thats lets say ~20m copies x 60$ = 1.2 BILLION $ in the next 4 years .Blizzard needs to "make SC2 E-SPORT grow " for the next 3-4 years investing ~1m $ per year for like 5 years which is nothing for them. Just by selling they will make huge profits only in Korea .
The rest of the world is not really important compared to Korea.
|
On August 06 2010 23:11 LeDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 22:57 Zoltan wrote:
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
To be honest, I laugh everytime I read that broodwar is superior and there's no discussion to it. It's not only outdated, but a nightmare for every casual gamer and beginners.
Why is the truth funny?
|
Hm there's no need for discussing why broodwar is superior, everyone knows it.
A 500k tournament doesn't bring Tv stations money its not even broadcasted in tv. Tv stations need viewers or it's not profitable.
It's good for the players but if people don't watch no TV station will pick it up no matter how high the prize pool is.Tv station need viewers to make money from ads.
So yea Blizzard work on this fukcing unit clumping. Sc2 is the most boring game to watch, i even enjoy wc3 more.
On August 06 2010 23:57 Opinion wrote:
Hey guys what's going on in this thread?
Oh... Same conversation, same talking points, same complaints, same praise, same points and counter points...
Sweet, which side would you like me to take? I think by now i have everything memorized and it's just a matter of regurgitating what has already been said a thousand times.
you forgot the same useless posts like yours
|
On August 07 2010 01:55 wiesel wrote:
Hm there's no need for discussing why broodwar is superior, everyone knows it.
Remember vinyl? It still provides superior audio quality compared to today's tech... or so a hardcore audiophile will tell you. The rest of us will never know because I'll be dammed if anyone cares to own a record player anymore. (other than that 0.01%)
Sorry BW people, but you are those vinyl fans, you try to debate the superiority of your product, but no one is listening anymore. We have 10,000 songs in our pockets and a shinny new sc2 to play, we have no need for dusty tech.
Technology moves forward without you, whether you like it or not.
Learn to adapt, or dig out your old Atari, the rest of us will be playing sc2
|
Hm? I want to play the highest skill demanding game which is broodwar and it's not even worth discussing. Ok?
|
in term of quality of the game, SC2 is superb, but in term of marketing it, blizz f'ed up big time. they r trying too hard to dominate the market. sure its their product, but if they act like an asshole, ppl are just gonna pick another game.
|
On August 07 2010 02:07 Dr.Smoke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 01:55 wiesel wrote:
Hm there's no need for discussing why broodwar is superior, everyone knows it.
Remember vinyl? It still provides superior audio quality compared to today's tech... or so a hardcore audiophile will tell you. The rest of us will never know because I'll be dammed if anyone cares to own a record player anymore. (other than that 0.01%) Sorry BW people, but you are those vinyl fans, you try to debate the superiority of your product, but no one is listening anymore. We have 10,000 songs in our pockets and a shinny new sc2 to play, we have no need for dusty tech. Technology moves forward without you, whether you like it or not. Learn to adapt, or dig out your old Atari, the rest of us will be playing sc2
Better technology doesn't automatically make it better.
Remember soccer players complaining about Jabulani?
Remember NBA players complaining about synthetic ball?
|
You can't really compare those sports with videogames, but if you want even that old stuff doesn't stay the same. They add rules to baseball, they add instant replay, things evolve.
Those are still physical sports though, its easier for them to resist change. When it comes to things like technology new is what matters most.
Might I remind you that e-sports are a young mans game even more than those other types, and kids today don't want to play a blocky old game at 800 x600. Let alone continue to find ways to run old games on new OSs. Hell, I'm old, and I don't want to play old games anymore.
------
As for Korea, so what? They were going to take the longest to adapt, that was no secret. But by this time next year they will all be playing sc2 too.
|
@Dr. Smoke,
based on stats, maple story is where the korean spending their time.
also, despite home ownership of PC in Korea is one of the highest in the world, many SK youth go to PC bang like ppl go to the bar in North America. Blizz pissed off a lot of the PC bang owners and make it much less likely it will be played there, greatly diminishing the fan base.
blizz's harsh policy on tournaments make sponsorship very difficult too.
|
On August 07 2010 02:21 Dr.Smoke wrote:
Might I remind you that e-sports are a young mans game even more than those other types, and kids today don't want to play a blocky old game at 800 x600. Let alone continue to find ways to run old games on new OSs. Hell, I'm old, and I don't want to play old games anymore.
Ever played cs1.6? Not saying your totally wrong but not everyone cares about graphic. Your in the US who don't have e-sport besides cs. Not counting this halo and console crap.
But yea people love to play it in 640 or 800 resolution.
|
On August 07 2010 01:48 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 23:11 LeDuck wrote:On August 06 2010 22:57 Zoltan wrote:
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
To be honest, I laugh everytime I read that broodwar is superior and there's no discussion to it. It's not only outdated, but a nightmare for every casual gamer and beginners. Why is the truth funny?
and there's no discussion to it
Because you just proved his point?
|
On August 04 2010 13:43 junkacc wrote:
Game industry experts commented that the first weekend after release usually decides whether a game will be successful or not.
Lol who are these game industry "experts" that are commenting without citation.
|
On August 07 2010 02:07 Dr.Smoke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 01:55 wiesel wrote:
Hm there's no need for discussing why broodwar is superior, everyone knows it.
Remember vinyl? It still provides superior audio quality compared to today's tech... or so a hardcore audiophile will tell you. The rest of us will never know because I'll be dammed if anyone cares to own a record player anymore. (other than that 0.01%) Sorry BW people, but you are those vinyl fans, you try to debate the superiority of your product, but no one is listening anymore. We have 10,000 songs in our pockets and a shinny new sc2 to play, we have no need for dusty tech. Technology moves forward without you, whether you like it or not. Learn to adapt, or dig out your old Atari, the rest of us will be playing sc2
Oh i just gotta take the bait on this BS post.
Vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate. By the way, vinyl sales are growing year after year, because there is something about the sound and format that is unique and vibrant. People who seek that experience can only get it from vinyl. The fact that mp3s are more portable doesnt take away from the experience of listening to a clean record on a decent hi-fi. Only a child would try to argue that logic. Does McDonalds make a better hamburger than one you make at your house on your own grill? Of course not. But how many burgers do you sell from your house vs McDonalds sales? Do those numbers change the taste of one vs another?
Bringing it back to Broodwar, let me start by saying i have no opinion over which game is better, nor do i care which game is better. Thats an argument for wasting your life to. But i think it needs to be said that, like vinyl, Broodwar is a unique experience that it extremely valued by people who know what it is and have a personal connection to it. The people who dont give a shit about vinyl are all these teenagers who cant tell a decent tune from friggin Miley Cyrus. They have no reason to mourn the loss of vinyl, because they never knew what it was worth. Same thing for BW. Whether it is better or not should not ever be decided by people who have no connection with the original game. People who didnt play it, or tried it and failed because its hard as hell have nearly no say on what the quality of the game is. When those people say SC2 is better, they really just mean SC2 is better FOR THEM. But, if you look at the reasoning behind why that person prefers one over the other they really arent reasons worth noting when comparing the actual gameplay and longevity and depth that people are seeking in an RTS that is supposedly going to follow up BW.
The point is, it doesnt surprise me that people who never "got" BW are the first in line to shove it into its grave. Which is fine. We cant all have the same taste or connection to things. But i feel like its an incredibly juvenile and uninformed opinion that states that anything new is better because technology is always moving forward. Dont be fools. Tons of things that come out are consistently inferior. But they are faster and more convenient. Companies sell the public convenience, not always a better product or a higher quality experience. CDs were marketed as being easier and more clear and faster because you can skip around tracks. And they were. But they were also digital pieces of shit compared to even cassette tapes. I think it would surprise most people to realize that cassettes are higher fi than cds. And yet, cds were more convenient and allowed the public to be more lazy and get what they want in a hurry. But it was in fact an inferior listening experience sonically. But they made you think it was better, because it was "newer technology".
Sorry for being somewhat off topic. But i fear a world where everyone just sits there with their mouth open consuming any product that comes down the line without stopping to think if its better, or even necessary to discard the old ones. Im not friggin 15, i care about quality not quantity. 12000 shit songs on an ipod really isnt worth a couple decent albums on vinyl played over a tube hi-fi. But, to each his own.
Back on topic again, give Korea some time. They have plenty of reasons to go into SC2 slowly. I commend them for being observant and waiting to see how it goes beofre jumping in and make believing something that might not be true. I think they are smart for not switching instantly just because its a new game. That being said i do love SC2 and think it will do fine eventually.
One last thing, in this post i quoted, he said "learn to adapt". What a bizarre brilliant corner companies have painted the public into where anyone not buying new products rabidly all the time is considered "out of date" and that they "cant adapt". That kind of social pressure and identity based consumerism is exactly what companies want. Eyes closed, mouth open.
|
WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT...
|
There is no need to be afraid of SC2's "unpopularity". Although, it looks bleak, I am sure it will at least gain about WC3's level of success.
Still, I had hoped it would exceed Brood War's level of success but I do not see it possible right now. ActiBlizz did it to themselves. They put all those things we don't like exceeding and cancelling out the things that we like or would have liked.
|
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks.
|
@Mellotron
Thank you for that post <3.
Just to clarify, I don't hate Starcraft 2. While I think it is an inferior game to BW in a lot of objective standards, especially those pertaining to depth and competition, it is also a very well designed game on its own right, and more importantly, represents a chance for esports to grow internationally, while the BW scene could only stagnate.
In the end its a Hobsons choice. A choice between something or nothing. And I have no delusions that Starcraft 2 could have been as good as Starcraft 1, it would have gotten a 6.0 metacritic score and the masses would hate it.
|
On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks.
There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
|
On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
Some people prefer things that are harder, older, less accessible, and less enjoyable for most. Vinyl and Brood War will continue to exist for you guys.
What I don't get is why anyone expects SC II to be making money in Korea as long as its still free. This shouldn't even be a conversation until the game STOPS BEING FREE. rofl.
|
Some people prefer things that are harder, older, less accessible, and less enjoyable for most. Vinyl and Brood War is for you guys.
Yes some people prefer quality to convenience.
What I don't get is why anyone expects SC II to be making money in Korea as long as its still free. This shouldn't even be a conversation until the game STOPS BEING FREE. rofl.
Being free or not has nothing to do with how often it is played in PC-bangs, the subject of the OP.
|
Bet it'll pick up with GSL hopefuls massing. SO much prize money for that can't be ignored. I think korea will still pick up sc2 it'll just take them longer than the rest of the world. Maybe because they're so fkin good at sc1, why leave.
|
On August 07 2010 03:13 LuckyFool wrote:
Bet it'll pick up with GSL hopefuls massing. SO much prize money for that can't be ignored. I think korea will still pick up sc2 it'll just take them longer than the rest of the world. Maybe because they're so fkin good at sc1, why leave.
SC2 isnt being picked up as esport anywhere else in the world yet. also, while GOM has plan to hold tournaments, there is no plan to develop esport beyond that.
simply put, it is currently not viable to play SC2 for a living and GOM is not going to change that without further investment.
|
On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:
You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
Saying that something is inferior just because it is made of "little stair-step gaps" seems bogus to me; an approximation of something in discrete steps can be very good, just look at movies and television for instance. Also, one theory is that time itself is discrete, in which case everything is just a collection of rigid "1's and 0's" one after the other. What really matters is how quickly the mind processes something like sound, and if we can make those steps close enough together.
|
On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks.
Coming from a DJ, I can tell you the same: vinyl > digital media due to analog sound quality. This is also a general consensus among DJs from what I know. And this is also one of the reasons why people still spin vinyl despite the conveniences of digital media
|
On August 07 2010 03:10 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them. Some people prefer things that are harder, older, less accessible, and less enjoyable for most. Vinyl and Brood War will continue to exist for you guys. What I don't get is why anyone expects SC II to be making money in Korea as long as its still free. This shouldn't even be a conversation until the game STOPS BEING FREE. rofl.
Yeah but, people dont choose vinyl and BW because its older and harder. Its just a coincidence. Not one person here who prefers BW chose that because its "older". Its the content they value. Same for records. By the way, i dont know how much "less enjoyable" vinyl is. Its way bassier than cds. CDs cant go as low as vinyl can. Electronica and hip hop will always sound better played on vinyl. Orchestral recordings will always sound better on vinyl as well, because vinyl also goes sonically higher than a cd can. People choose vinyl for those reasons, not for exclusivity as you seem to claim. Exclusivity is always cited when the person debating feels unincluded in what they are arguing against. But its not that that keeps people coming back to BW, its the actual content.
|
On August 07 2010 03:10 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them. Some people prefer things that are harder, older, less accessible, and less enjoyable for most. Vinyl and Brood War will continue to exist for you guys.
Haha BW, soon-to-be pass-time of hipsters.
|
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
*Sigh* This attitude of "my opinion is a fact" is exactly the problem of many old school BW guys. Or is it just the fear of the new? Could you just stop and think for a second that neither vinyl nor digital recordings are and never will be the perfect reproductions of the original waveform, and that there is a limit to the fidelity of human perception that makes a good enough approximation indistinguishable from the original? Can you imagine that your opinion is not the only existing one, and that there are many people who know exactly what BW is and why it is so good can still appreciate SC2?
|
Some people just don't want SC2 to succeed and will keep calling it a 'failure' regardless of the truth.
|
For the record.. BW runs like shit on Windows 7. Colours are screwy, the game freezes and spazzes all over the place. Computer's aren't getting older. So are people really going to sit and uninstall their shiny new OS for an unsupported old one full of security holes and a lack of features to play 1 game. ATM this isn't an issue. 2-3 years down the line it will be, when most people will have replaced their old comp due to hardware failure, lack of features, or boredom and wanting the ability to do new things.
|
On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
You're right, Google is our friend. And it's telling me that you're a delusional, superior jackass who's refusing to recognize that scratches in tar have their own weaknesses (such as the possible groove depth).
Unless you are at a concert EVERYTHING is an approximation. The limitations of that approximation just differ.
|
Did you hear? They're coming out with a new kind of tea. It's called Earl Greyer.
But I like Earl Grey more so obviously Earl Grey is objectively worse for everyone ever
FACT: Earl Grey has been around longer.
FACT: Earl Grey tastes better
FACT: Pineapples are delicious
FACT: 1% of every made-up statistic is actually accurate.
FACT: white shirts look better than blue ones
FACT: Green is the best color.
So obviously Starcraft 2 will be a massive failure.
I like tea.
|
On August 07 2010 03:22 oxxo wrote:
Some people just don't want SC2 to succeed and will keep calling it a 'failure' regardless of the truth.
Some people are just fucking blind due to fanboyism.
Starcraft 2 IS a failure in PC bangs as of this moment. This isn't up for debate. It is an fact.
For the record.. BW runs like shit on Windows 7. Colours are screwy, the game freezes and spazzes all over the place. Computer's aren't getting older. So are people really going to sit and uninstall their shiny new OS for an unsupported old one full of security holes and a lack of features to play 1 game. ATM this isn't an issue. 2-3 years down the line it will be, when most people will have replaced their old comp due to hardware failure, lack of features, or boredom and wanting the ability to do new things.
Right. I'm not against SC2, and if Esports want to thrive, it has to adapt, and people have to make sacrifices.
Those statements have nothing to do with the actual quality of SC1 as a game though.
So obviously Starcraft 2 will be a massive failure.
Who the hell is saying this? If people are, please disassociate them in your mind from people who like BW more then SC2.
But I like Earl Grey more so obviously Earl Grey is objectively worse for everyone ever
Objectively worse game? That doesn't exist. People look for different qualities in games. However, I can conclusively prove that BW is objectively more "deep" and provides more avenues for skill development then SC2, and aside from graphics, has a better dynamic for viewers as of this moment.
|
On August 07 2010 03:41 Seltsam wrote:Did you hear? They're coming out with a new kind of tea. It's called Earl Greyer. But I like Earl Grey more so obviously Earl Grey is objectively worse for everyone ever FACT: Earl Grey has been around longer. FACT: Earl Grey tastes better FACT: Pineapples are delicious FACT: 1% of every made-up statistic is actually accurate. FACT: white shirts look better than blue ones FACT: Green is the best color. So obviously Starcraft 2 will be a massive failure. I like tea.
FACT: Im having "English Breakfast" right now.
On a more serious note, from my perspective I think that Blizzard attempted to captilize on a cultural phenomenon which is all well and good. However what they miss calculated was the grassroots nature of esports. They did not listen to the fans as well as they should have and they did not play as nice with the community as they could have. Im not going to go say whos right in things like the kespa vs Blizzard scandal etc... but the one thing thats evident to me is that Starcraft 2's performance is worse because of this tension.
|
On August 07 2010 03:45 Half wrote: Who the hell is saying this? If people are, please disassociate them in your mind from people who like BW more then SC2.
Oh, half, you make me laugh ^^
I dunno, probably no one, but we can definitely be sure that my post was completely serious!
EDIT:
Actually, the OP seems to be making that claim, albeit somewhat vaguely. Literally speaking, he says the success of Starcraft 2 is "unclear," but since that's a meaningless and incredibly obvious statement when taken literally, I can only assume that, given the context of his post, he's trying to say that SC2 is not going to be successful
Still, that doesn't make my last post anything more than a jab at people who make crazy "factual" claims in regards to anything
U CRAZEE GAIZ!
On August 07 2010 03:47 Archerofaiur wrote:
FACT: Im having "English Breakfast" right now.
Damn, you poked a huge hole in my argument
EDIT AGAIN!
The OP reminds me of yellow journalism xD
|
On August 07 2010 03:45 Half wrote:
Right. I'm not against SC2, and if Esports want to thrive, it has to adapt, and people have to make sacrifices.
Those statements have nothing to do with the actual qualify of SC1 as a game though.
OFC not.. Starcraft BW is the biggest RTS the world has seen, but it doesn't stop my Laptop screaming "lol wtf is this antique you expect me to run" everytime i put the disk in.
As much as we like to think it's an E-Sport.. The thing with the E and not so much the sport, is that Tech changes, new things are developed. There aren't 100's of new sports being invented yearly vying for our attention.
E-Sport is adapting.. Starcraft 2.. its similar but different enough to warrant being a sequel, Major graphical upgrade, which will make it better to watch than the BW for the uninitiated. No matter how good the pro play is, show it to a casual and watch them recoil because they aren't interested in watching a 12 year old game. and the key to any thriving entertainment industry is creating new fans as well as retaining the old ones.
|
On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them.
As long as your sample rate is high enough to avoid aliasing, Fourier Transform allows you to convert analog -> digital -> analogy playback with no loss of data. Finite 0's and 1's are irrelevant as long as you are above the threshold. Digital music is often seen as inferior not because of the quality, quite the reverse. Analog technologies often introduce imperfect distortions that turn out sounding pretty nice. A feature that is hard to replicate with digital.
Same reason why you see musicians playing with tube amps from teh 70's instead of modern amps.
Learning is Power! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FourierTransform.html
|
Every time I see this thread title is pisses me off a little. I mean, the game hasn't even been out 2 weeks yet...
|
Actually, the OP seems to be making that claim, albeit somewhat vaguely. Literally speaking, he says the success of Starcraft 2 is "unclear," but since that's a meaningless and incredibly obvious statement when taken literally, I can only assume that, given the context of his post, he's trying to say that SC2 is not going to be successful
No, he said Industry Expert say that. Which is a fact. Because Industry Experts are saying that.
dun worry you make me laugh too :D. How seeing any kind of thread criticizing SC2 in any way makes you all insecure and stuffs.
The OP reminds me of yellow journalism xD
Then you guys remind me of CCTV-10.
All is perfect. Trust in your glorious leaders. Expect Unprecedented growth and prosperity in the years coming ahead.
|
Let´s get real. BW wont last 12 more years. SC2 can and even more. So stop hating SC2 and pray SC2 to be a big succes in Korea as it is US and EU already.
I strongly believe this GOMTV league is a very good start and the next few weeks we are going to see some surprises from Korea.
|
On August 07 2010 04:24 Juaks wrote:
Let´s get real. BW wont last 12 more years. SC2 can.
I totally agree (not with the "and more" thing :x). I'm not "hating on Starcraft 2". I recognize, well, its the future, an imperfect one, but hey, what future is?
I'm just asking people to show the respect the predecessor for what it was. A pinnacle of competitive game design that isn't going to be achieved for some time to come. Face it, Starcraft 2, while an excellent game, hardly represents a pinnacle in that field, when compared to its predecessor. Its well designed enough to stand on its own strengths as an Esport, which is we really needed, or should have expected. But it doesn't succeed the original.
|
who plz say that a bad game in asia = a bad game for us ?
sc2 is such a great game BUT its censored in korea + some other things like u can play it when u have wow (most wow gamers not want to play rts ofc ...)
i think it needs some time for bw to end and sc2 to start
now u see the gomtv league ? 500.000$ pricepool and it will grow the next years ! i am sure that time will change and guys remember Starcraft in korea 1998 wasnt same as broodwar is nowadays.
|
On August 07 2010 04:28 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 Juaks wrote:
Let´s get real. BW wont last 12 more years. SC2 can. I totally agree (not with the "and more" thing :x). I'm not "hating on Starcraft 2". I recognize, well, its the future, an imperfect one, but hey, what future is? I'm just asking people to show the respect the predecessor for what it was. A pinnacle of competitive game design that isn't going to be achieved for some time to come. Face it, Starcraft 2, while an excellent game, hardly represents a pinnacle in that field, when compared to its predecessor. Its well designed enough to stand on its own strengths as an Esport, which is we really needed, or should have expected. But it doesn't succeed the original.
Don´t get me wrong. BW is the best RTS ever made, I love it, no doubt about it. But if Blizzard is giving me the sequel I´ll take it in a heartbeat. As it stands right now SC2 is a quality product with huge potential, and you are right, it haven´t achived the pinnacle in comparison to BW, but let´s wait 2 or 3 more years to evolve and we´ll see. I trust Blizzard because I consider their products instant classics.
|
why isnt this thread closed yet. SC2 has the biggest esports boom in its infancy of every game ever made.
Stop arguing with these people about how it is or it isn't DOA (dead on arival)
the facts are there. and currently they say SC2 is going to kick some shit in.
|
actually if u check out the blizz forum, theres already alot of flames about the game. one of the blue posters admitted thus far that the custom map system is shit and blizz is planning to amend its wrongs. custom map wasnt the only complaint ofc.
so ya, its not a dumb issue, blizz is paying attention to this.
|
On August 07 2010 02:32 Cofo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 01:48 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:On August 06 2010 23:11 LeDuck wrote:On August 06 2010 22:57 Zoltan wrote:
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
To be honest, I laugh everytime I read that broodwar is superior and there's no discussion to it. It's not only outdated, but a nightmare for every casual gamer and beginners. Why is the truth funny? Because you just proved his point?
what is this point all about?
that truth is funny?
|
On August 07 2010 04:03 jared6464 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them. As long as your sample rate is high enough to avoid aliasing, Fourier Transform allows you to convert analog -> digital -> analogy playback with no loss of data. Finite 0's and 1's are irrelevant as long as you are above the threshold. Digital music is often seen as inferior not because of the quality, quite the reverse. Analog technologies often introduce imperfect distortions that turn out sounding pretty nice. A feature that is hard to replicate with digital. Same reason why you see musicians playing with tube amps from teh 70's instead of modern amps. Learning is Power! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FourierTransform.html
The problem is that the bit rate on CDs/MP3 ect is not high enough to convert digital ->analog with out loss. Yes you can encode the MP3 with a mich higher bit rate to over come this, but in most cases this is not done so it is true that Vinyl > CDs
|
I think Blizz tried to milk it just a bit too much in Korea (charging pc bangs a special free, kespa etc etc) and this is the result.
|
when i lived in korea one of the major reasons i went to pcbang was to lan.. and because i couldnt afford a good computer or the internet connection to play games with (this was like 11 years ago lol). For majority of kids back then decent computers and graphic cards were pretty expensive, nowadays im guessing they all have computers that can handle sc2 and with no lan, no reason to go to pcbang when you can just play with ur friends over bnet.
|
I think it will pick up speed.
|
just wait until the gomtv tournament kicks in, lol
|
What I don't understand is why Blizzard don't just buy the top BW players for SC2?
Seriously, if they just directly approached all of the top players in BW--Flash, JD, etc.--and offered them more money to come play SC2 than they are making in BW, it would instantly ramp up the competitive scene in SC2, while eliminating all competition from BW. Hell, why not get Boxer too? He's not the top player now, but he's still a huge name, and a lot of people would tune into watch him.
For an investment of $5-10 mil (pocket change for Blizzard), I guarantee you they could instantly lure all of the top player into switching games. It wouldn't even matter that Flash and JD don't play SC2--offer them each $500,000-$1,000,000 a year in guaranteed salary for the next couple years, and they would absolutely make the switch.
With no top players left in BW, PC Bangs would have to get with the program.
|
I think that the intelligent decision is to support SC2, at least for now, regardless of whether or not it's better than Brood War (which it certainly isn't, at least currently).
Looking at the history of basically every successful competitive game ever to get a sequel made, there are essentially 2 things that happen:
1) The sequel is successful competitively. Maybe it's better than the original game, maybe it's about even, maybe it's worse but still good enough. It gets the support of enough of the previous game's community, and it gets a big enough influx of new players, and this pushes it onwards to replace the previous game. Another sequel or expansion will get made in the future, and the game's future continues.
OR
2) The game fails competitively. It's much worse than its predecessor, and it causes a big split in the community, with most of the best players staying back and many of the newer players going forwards. Another sequel or expansion is unlikely to be made, and if it is, it's not likely to be aimed at the previous competitive crowd (if they're even still around). The series decays until it is dead.
Let's look at one of the biggest series of competitive games to exist: Super Smash Brothers. Smash Brothers 64 was a great competitive game that got played again and again. It's sequel was Melee, and what happened here was undoubtedly a case of #1. Melee was actually better than 64, and did an awesome job expanding that game's playerbase and fame. Then, after Melee, came Brawl. Brawl was undoubtedly one of the second group of games. It did a poor job replacing Melee, and a lot of the best players didn't even bother going with it; It was awful and Nintendo clearly had intentions to fix it. Now, Smash Brothers is no longer anywhere near as big as it used to be, and I would bet money that there won't ever be another sequel.
Supporting SC2 will help prevent #2 from happening, and Blizzard actually does care about making it good, so if we continue to pressure them but also don't cease to support SC2, we have the best chance of SC2 continuing to become the next big eSport.
|
goes to show that there are still people out there who value gameplay over 'updated' graphics
|
Why was this bumped ? Well, I hope Starcraft II eventually catches on after a year or so. Maybe after the expansions. Who knows...
|
Dude you're a joke. Lol have you played this game? It's flipping sweet. Definitely one of the best RTS games I've played in a long time... Don't see this failing
User was warned for this post
|
So koreans decided not to embrace sc2, guess what, it still sold really well worldwide. SC1 was made professional in korea, sc2 doesn't have to be.
|
I'm glad korea is not really into SC2. The entire "everything outside of korea relating to starcraft is foreign" is bothersome to me. Blizzard is HQ'ed in the USA. Korean starcraft is the foreign one to me.
|
Looks like I bought into the hype too much.
|
isn't the poster shown to be obvious biased?
|
I think the low popularity in internet cafes is because players aren't good at it yet, once they get better at it they will want to play it more because right now people may just stick to SC1 because they are good at it. I do think this will all change when there are bigger tournaments and more worldwide coverage, so it feels as much as a sport as SC1. I also think that a huge impact will be if Terran became harder to play because right now watching Terran play isn't an observation of skill, unless it's TLO, since its the most popular race, you see too much of the same thing from them. I think that if people were to play Zerg and Protoss more then there would be much more attention, or at least if Terran was harder to play.
|
On August 09 2010 10:13 hadoken5 wrote:
I think the low popularity in internet cafes is because players aren't good at it yet, once they get better at it they will want to play it more because right now people may just stick to SC1 because they are good at it. I do think this will all change when there are bigger tournaments and more worldwide coverage, so it feels as much as a sport as SC1. I also think that a huge impact will be if Terran became harder to play because right now watching Terran play isn't an observation of skill, unless it's TLO, since its the most popular race, you see too much of the same thing from them. I think that if people were to play Zerg and Protoss more then there would be much more attention, or at least if Terran was harder to play.
But if they never play it, they'll never get better. Getting good at SC1 can only get you so far in SC2.
|
Don't know if this has been asked already but is there a place were i can get these stats in english?
|
LOL @ deeming SC2 a failure in Korea at this point. Given SC:BW's cemented status, it's pretty obvious a transition will take time. As tournaments like the one GOMTV is hosting soon starts popping up I'm positive it'll grow huge and, down the line, take over.
|
On August 12 2010 07:36 koOma wrote:
LOL @ deeming SC2 a failure in Korea at this point. Given SC:BW's cemented status, it's pretty obvious a transition will take time. As tournaments like the one GOMTV is hosting soon starts popping up I'm positive it'll grow huge and, down the line, take over.
I wasn't asking for stats about SC2 failing. I'm just wondering if i can find the S.K. pc bang stats in english.
|
On August 09 2010 09:59 TheGeo wrote:
I'm glad korea is not really into SC2. The entire "everything outside of korea relating to starcraft is foreign" is bothersome to me. Blizzard is HQ'ed in the USA. Korean starcraft is the foreign one to me.
I do agree the use of the word foreign is slightly odd considering it's even used by non-Korean players to describe non-Koreans, but why is it relevant where Blizzard's HQ is located?
It's a game, released in multiple languages, to play on the internet, a global, international network.
It'd be equally odd to call any non-USA players foreign.
TL:DR; I agree with your sentiment, but your argument supporting it doesn't make sense.
|
Well it's not exactly that odd since even though the game was designed in the US, the Koreans embraced it much much more than the US. There are so many events in Korea that revolve around SCBW and they have incorporated it into their culture a bit. SK really is the place the go for SCBW so it makes sense that everybody else is foreign.
|
one great game between Jaedong, Fantasy, Flash, or Bisu that gets the people to say WOW did you see that!, and BAM, the game takes off. It should have been set up so that the Pro's would have started a big tournament on television the week SC2 was released. They should have had the end of season of BW and honored the best BW players ever in a hall of fame type ceremony, tears, hugs and memories ensue, and then began the SC2 OSL era immediately.
|
The major asspain of the Blizzard Defense Force is hilarious. Keep it coming guys.
|
On August 13 2010 23:25 Shaddox wrote:
The major asspain of the Blizzard Defense Force is hilarious. Keep it coming guys.
Proleague Finals was 2nd lowest attendance ever, only beating last year's attendance. Brood War peaked long ago and has been stagnant or declining in ratings since. Let it ride out into the sunset, it's time.
|
On August 07 2010 03:19 Mellotron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 03:10 Ndugu wrote:On August 07 2010 03:04 Mellotron wrote:On August 07 2010 02:56 Random() wrote:
@Mellotron
"vinyl is 100 percent undeniably superior in audio quality, there is no debate"
No debate, huh? Show me just one of those wannabe-audiophiles who can tell vinyl from a properly mastered CD in at least 80% of cases in a double-blind test and I will eat my socks. There is no debate. You are completely uninformed on this subject matter and about to embarrass yourself. The proof is in the fact that you think mastering somehow increases the available 1s and 0s. Lets not take this too far off topic. You are wrong. Use the internet to your advantage my friend. Many articles have been written and audio tests have been done that prove and reprove this to be a fact. Vinyl is a physical entity. 1s and 0s have gaps in between the 1s and 0s. You arent hearing all of the audio when you listen to a digital recording. You are hearing an approximation. This is not opinion this is fact, and quite commonly known in the audio world. Until bit rates go way way way up, digital will be baby talk compared to the literary genius of a vinyl record. And even then, it will still be 1s and 0s with tiny little stair-step gaps in between them. Some people prefer things that are harder, older, less accessible, and less enjoyable for most. Vinyl and Brood War will continue to exist for you guys. What I don't get is why anyone expects SC II to be making money in Korea as long as its still free. This shouldn't even be a conversation until the game STOPS BEING FREE. rofl. Yeah but, people dont choose vinyl and BW because its older and harder. Its just a coincidence. Not one person here who prefers BW chose that because its "older". Its the content they value. Same for records. By the way, i dont know how much "less enjoyable" vinyl is. Its way bassier than cds. CDs cant go as low as vinyl can. Electronica and hip hop will always sound better played on vinyl. Orchestral recordings will always sound better on vinyl as well, because vinyl also goes sonically higher than a cd can. People choose vinyl for those reasons, not for exclusivity as you seem to claim. Exclusivity is always cited when the person debating feels unincluded in what they are arguing against. But its not that that keeps people coming back to BW, its the actual content.
Digital audio can contain notes both lower and higher than the human ear can pick up. Either way the comparison between vinyl and digital is not that simple. Cheap vinyl setup will sound bad, cheap digital setup will sound bad. If you haven't heard top of the line D/A converters by Electrocompaniet/Abrahamsen or Audio-GD, I don't think you can say anything about digital audio.
(I'll assume this is relevant to the topic somehow. Haven't seen the root of this debate, sorry if it isn't.)
|
![[image loading]](http://hell.fleshless.org/bd0ebe2247ec98cbb30b1a5cabead70355871f0a.jpg)
OP
User was warned for this post
|
Personally even if everything stated by the OP is true, I dont care if it isnt as popular in Korea.
It will still be at the WCG etc, there will still be major tournaments for it, if Koreans dont wanna play it then I guess we just need to find some other group willing to be the target of the stereotypes
Gosu -> Sehr-Gut ?
Playgu -> Baller ?
|
On August 09 2010 08:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:
What I don't understand is why Blizzard don't just buy the top BW players for SC2?
Seriously, if they just directly approached all of the top players in BW--Flash, JD, etc.--and offered them more money to come play SC2 than they are making in BW, it would instantly ramp up the competitive scene in SC2, while eliminating all competition from BW. Hell, why not get Boxer too? He's not the top player now, but he's still a huge name, and a lot of people would tune into watch him.
For an investment of $5-10 mil (pocket change for Blizzard), I guarantee you they could instantly lure all of the top player into switching games. It wouldn't even matter that Flash and JD don't play SC2--offer them each $500,000-$1,000,000 a year in guaranteed salary for the next couple years, and they would absolutely make the switch.
With no top players left in BW, PC Bangs would have to get with the program.
because blizzard really doesnt give a fuck about esports. they want game sales.
|
On August 14 2010 01:05 tacrats wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2010 08:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:
What I don't understand is why Blizzard don't just buy the top BW players for SC2?
Seriously, if they just directly approached all of the top players in BW--Flash, JD, etc.--and offered them more money to come play SC2 than they are making in BW, it would instantly ramp up the competitive scene in SC2, while eliminating all competition from BW. Hell, why not get Boxer too? He's not the top player now, but he's still a huge name, and a lot of people would tune into watch him.
For an investment of $5-10 mil (pocket change for Blizzard), I guarantee you they could instantly lure all of the top player into switching games. It wouldn't even matter that Flash and JD don't play SC2--offer them each $500,000-$1,000,000 a year in guaranteed salary for the next couple years, and they would absolutely make the switch.
With no top players left in BW, PC Bangs would have to get with the program. because blizzard really doesnt give a fuck about esports. they want game sales.
They do, but it's not BLIZZARD's job to do it. Blizzard is not comparable to organisations like MLS (which pays lots of soccer players) in this regard.
|
On August 14 2010 01:25 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 01:05 tacrats wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2010 08:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:
What I don't understand is why Blizzard don't just buy the top BW players for SC2?
Seriously, if they just directly approached all of the top players in BW--Flash, JD, etc.--and offered them more money to come play SC2 than they are making in BW, it would instantly ramp up the competitive scene in SC2, while eliminating all competition from BW. Hell, why not get Boxer too? He's not the top player now, but he's still a huge name, and a lot of people would tune into watch him.
For an investment of $5-10 mil (pocket change for Blizzard), I guarantee you they could instantly lure all of the top player into switching games. It wouldn't even matter that Flash and JD don't play SC2--offer them each $500,000-$1,000,000 a year in guaranteed salary for the next couple years, and they would absolutely make the switch.
With no top players left in BW, PC Bangs would have to get with the program. because blizzard really doesnt give a fuck about esports. they want game sales. They do, but it's not BLIZZARD's job to do it. Blizzard is not comparable to organisations like MLS (which pays lots of soccer players) in this regard.
They dont. Because if they did they would have made sc2/bnet2.0 more adaptable to such things. Instead they are full of useless features for help out new players feel good about themselves, and removed the features more serious players want/need. Plus blizzard bullying organizations left and right doesnt really help.
At the end of the day, sc2 wont be as big as bw was, and sc2 will die faster than bw did.
|
Seriously is this a troll post?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
