EPTI mean shields rebuild pretty fast once combat is taken away.
The assim has the same hp/shield as it had in BW yet the refinery and extractor both lost 250 hp.
[d] Overlooked issue ?
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I mean shields rebuild pretty fast once combat is taken away. The assim has the same hp/shield as it had in BW yet the refinery and extractor both lost 250 hp. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
 Blizzard probably did it to allow for a somewhat better gas steal to compensate for the fact that there is 2 gas now and gas steal is not as good anyways as it was in broodwar | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:08 TBO wrote: its called racial diversity Blizzard probably did it to allow for a somewhat better gas steal to compensate for the fact that there is 2 gas now and gas steal is not as good anyways as it was in broodwar no that doesn't make sense at all and protoss aren't the only people gas stealing. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
They can be given transfusion and being repaired like you said. Maybe this is why as compensation although quite a big compensation in my opinion :p Don't mind seeiing it get a nerf as a Protoss player myself  | ||
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storm44
1293 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
But if it were a game of gas stealing and gas sniping, protoss would win for sure. I would say dropping it down to 300/300 would be adequate. | ||
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
To clarify: I think Refinery / Extractor had more HP but it got reduced when the aforementioned problem arose. I wouldn't mind making the assimilator's hp a little less, just don't bump up the HP of the Extractor / Refinery to make it "balanced" P.s.: In SC1 the assimilator had more HP thant he refinery / extractor too, go and see it for yourselves I can't believe I replied to a topic by CM with a serious answer, I need to get myself checked out. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:14 Naib wrote: P.s.: In SC1 the assimilator had more HP thant he refinery / extractor too, go and see it for yourselves I can't believe I replied to a topic by CM with a serious answer, I need to get myself checked out. Well aren't you special re: ps duh, I'm not saying it shouldn't. Also the assimilator has the same hp as it had in bw as it does now while the refinery and extractor were lowered as I stated in the op. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:10 storm44 wrote: Yeah but how many times in a game are you trying to take down the opponents assimilator anyways? I guess your gas never got snipped by banshee harass/drop on cliff or on desert oasis. | ||
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Necrosjef
United Kingdom530 Posts
Protoss really rely on 2 gas for almost all of their viable builds. Terran and Zerg getting gas stolen isn't really a huge problem for most builds as the gas heavy units don't really arrive until tier 2. Protoss have sentries almost immediately which are 100 gas. | ||
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chuninexam
Canada56 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:12 CharlieMurphy wrote: Yea it's really not that big of a deal, but it just looks imbalanced (even if it is not really game changing thing in most games). But if it were a game of gas stealing and gas sniping, protoss would win for sure. I would say dropping it down to 300/300 would be adequate. It's not imbalanced. The races are meant to have diversity. I can point out tons of things that the other races have advantages against protoss and we can pretend they are imbalanced too just because they aren't the same. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:18 Necrosjef wrote: Seems to make sense in my mind that Zerg and Terran extractors would be weaker than Protoss ones. Protoss really rely on 2 gas for almost all of their viable builds. Terran and Zerg getting gas stolen isn't really a huge problem for most builds as the gas heavy units don't really arrive until tier 2. Protoss have sentries almost immediately which are 100 gas. Metabolic boost, lair, glial reconstruction, overlord speed, overseer etc. Factory, tech lab upgrades, etc. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:47 tacrats wrote: so in pvp do they always steal gas then if its so important? Ironically in PvP it's possible to work off 1 extractor (in base mass pylon/zealot warpin) | ||
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llortyag
United States64 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
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Cut[e]Paper
China43 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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Thaddaeus
Germany107 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:54 Cut[e]Paper wrote: Target Fire those Assimilators! yes i pump for 200/200 and then i go assi all in. If the assi is down im happy and leave  I dont remember that good but i think the costs are the same right (including drone for Z) ? Why change it though? P needs always gas as said and we cant heal or repair. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:51 CharlieMurphy wrote: There isn't even anything to argue in this thread tbh, it's blatantly too much HP for no good reason. So much so that you've failed to provide any acceptable reason as to why you think that, nor have you managed to convince anyone in this thread of your opinion. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
Different races are different. | ||
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jpaugh78
United States179 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:54 jamesr12 wrote: they are different but its not an issue. A hatch only cost 350 minerals, all the races are different that is one of the things tht makes starcraft great Hatcheries are only 300 actually. | ||
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
50 minerals steals all your opponent's gas. Can you imagine how effective that would be if they each had 900 hp? | ||
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onihunter
United States515 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:18 Necrosjef wrote: Seems to make sense in my mind that Zerg and Terran extractors would be weaker than Protoss ones. Protoss really rely on 2 gas for almost all of their viable builds. Terran and Zerg getting gas stolen isn't really a huge problem for most builds as the gas heavy units don't really arrive until tier 2. Protoss have sentries almost immediately which are 100 gas. maybe but Zerg needs to spend gas to unlock T2 (Lair) while Toss can spend 150 minerals to unlock their T2 tech buildings like robo or stargate. Plus lings need their speed upgrade more than any other unit T1 needs their upgrades to be effective in aggression | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On August 04 2010 01:01 onihunter wrote: Yes, races are drastically different in Starcraft, but that isn't because corresponding buildings between races have arbitrarily different amounts of health. Hatchery being only 300 minerals has a valid reason, since it's the zerg's only production building and they must simply build more of those than nexii/ccs. There simply isn't a good reason for having assimilators have so much more health than other gas facilities. I fail to see how gas stealing is a factor, since all races can gas steal. Its because Protoss does not have a single way to spam minerals other than zealots and cannons. Even a heavy Stalker army with a sentry or two won't leave you the gas to tech. | ||
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onionchowder
United States137 Posts
Also, as for Assimilators having more HP, in SC1 shields took full (extra) damage from all attacks, and so the Assimilator's effective HP was about the same as the Refinery or Extractor. In SC2, shields do not behave like this, and I don't really see why the Assimilator should have so much more (or more at all) HP than a Refinery/Extractor. All 3 cost the same to build, and arguably Protoss shield's out-of-battle regeneration is superior to Zerg's slow biological regeneration or Terran's paid repairs. I think the real issue is how do we get the point across to Blizzard. | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
lol what? Where does it say that shields don't take full damage without any upgrades... | ||
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Onlinejaguar
Australia2823 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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Sputty
Canada161 Posts
On August 04 2010 01:30 Trowabarton756 wrote: @onionchowder .... lol what? Where does it say that shields don't take full damage without any upgrades... In BW shields took full damage from any attack, no matter the damage type. In SC2 that damage/armor mechanic doesn't exist in the same way. I don't believe a marauder will do 20 damage to a zealot's shields, only a stalker's | ||
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Thndz
Norway7 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:51 llortyag wrote: this guy whines about everything... he must be a zerg player STFU | ||
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Cashout
115 Posts
/e i agree asimilator should have slightly more hp but not so much as now | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On August 04 2010 01:25 onionchowder wrote: A lot of people here are blindly shooting down the OP with irrelevant statements like "Protoss really need gas". I do agree with the OP; it is a little odd that Assimilator HP was not lowered. I believe Refinery and Extractor HP were lowered for the same reason the build cost was lowered - each SC2 Refinery/Extractor is essentially half of a SC1 Refinery. Also, as for Assimilators having more HP, in SC1 shields took full (extra) damage from all attacks, and so the Assimilator's effective HP was about the same as the Refinery or Extractor. In SC2, shields do not behave like this, and I don't really see why the Assimilator should have so much more (or more at all) HP than a Refinery/Extractor. All 3 cost the same to build, and arguably Protoss shield's out-of-battle regeneration is superior to Zerg's slow biological regeneration or Terran's paid repairs. I think the real issue is how do we get the point across to Blizzard. This. People shouting about 'racial differences' and 'Toss needs gas' have no argument of why an Assimilator has nearly DOUBLE the hp of the other buildings. More HP, sure. Double HP, no. BTW, Im a plat toss player before you shout noob zerg. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
All these little differences add up to create races that aren't the same thing. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
A good zerg can cancel and rebuild at a fast enough rate to probably match the hp of an assim. Differences in price is also an issue. And unless gameplay is being scewed so heavily, blizz wont just make a change baesd on observations. Blizz increased zealot time(for awhile) because 2 gateing seemed too strong. They nerfed forge hp and buildtime because cannon rushes were happening too much. Unless gas steals are getting really popular and a change needs to happen, a bunch of guys on a forum can't convince them to make any changes. WIth that being said, i need to look into some gas steal builds | ||
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Itsarabbit
Sweden58 Posts
And if you think it is like that(without my exaggeration), you are only enhancing the argument "Toss really needs gas". | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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Wonderballs
Canada253 Posts
extra HP on gas is nothing in the grand scheme of things (over the billions of games that will be played), but when you have the possibility of losing a tournament because some programmer was too lazy too normalize the hp on gas buildings (unless there is a valid reason it's that much higher) then I think it may be appropriate to look into these seeminly meaningless things. | ||
figq
12519 Posts
Compared to SC1, they nerfed the life of both extractor and refinery by 33%, but "forgot" (?) to nerf the assimilator and it remained the same life/shield as in SC1. These nerfs are logical, since now two gas facilities replace the function of one. SC1 - R: 750, E: 750, A: 450/450 SC2 - R: 500, E: 500, A: 450/450 note the perfect balance of the prices: SC1 - R: 100, E: 50(+50), A: 100 SC2 - R: 75, E: 25(+50), A: 75 clearly in SC2 these gas facilities (as they get half-functionality of sc1) get 33% less HP, and are 25% cheaper. The only exception stands out. Of course, protoss usually have HP+shield > HP of other race, but not that much bigger as in this case. Not double, no way. | ||
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
If it's such a glaring imbalance, just increase the other two to 600 or 650. But it seems like a non-issue. | ||
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Sly
Canada95 Posts
tho it should prob come down a lil, but still once it loses health its lost. u can't ever bring it back to full hp, but still thats pretty high. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:18 Necrosjef wrote: Seems to make sense in my mind that Zerg and Terran extractors would be weaker than Protoss ones. Protoss really rely on 2 gas for almost all of their viable builds. Terran and Zerg getting gas stolen isn't really a huge problem for most builds as the gas heavy units don't really arrive until tier 2. Protoss have sentries almost immediately which are 100 gas. How does that make it fair that the HP is WAY higher? When a Protoss steals your gas, do you know how long it takes for a single marine to kill it? Long. | ||
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
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BlueyD
Canada437 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 04 2010 03:23 Monokeros wrote: CharlieMurphy ditched this thread on page one, I don't think this is going to keep going much longer... I didn't ditch it, I went to sleep. I'm not really seeing a good argument for why the life is so high. I'm really inclined to believe that it was simply just an oversight because like other people mentioned, it's just something that is seemingly a nonfactor in most games that they just goofed up. I'd also like to mention that a very high percentage of my balance/theory/issue whatever you wanna call them that I bring up in the sc2 forum were patched accordingly. If you'd like I can hunt down old posts that have dates before balancing took place. | ||
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MattDamon
United States59 Posts
It is not a big deal but it does piss me off for gas steal. Protoss already does not require a worker to stay on/ become the building so I don't see why this is. I also don't like the fact that TvP is the only match up I get to use nukes in, and one nuke does not destroy the protoss gas, (One nuke kills a terran or zergs gas, I'm pretty sure) so it makes nukes less powerful imo. It's silly and does not make a huge deal but still unbalanced. | ||
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Chizambers
United States126 Posts
Technically Hatches are 350, since you lose the drone, which cost 50 minerals. You pretty much add 50 minerals to the cost of all Zerg buildings since you lose drones. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 04 2010 09:39 MattDamon wrote: I've herd this before and I still believe this is unbalanced. It is not a big deal but it does piss me off for gas steal. Protoss already does not require a worker to stay on/ become the building so I don't see why this is. I also don't like the fact that TvP is the only match up I get to use nukes in, and one nuke does not destroy the protoss gas, (One nuke kills a terran or zergs gas, I'm pretty sure) so it makes nukes less powerful imo. It's silly and does not make a huge deal but still unbalanced. those are good points actually. | ||
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