EPTTvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 74
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sparknineone
United States52 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On August 26 2010 06:47 Zerathios wrote: I think that it would be to ovepowered since you could just creep your opponents expansion so early while you get a good economy. I disagree with your disagreement. All 'toss and Terran needs is one marine/stalker to free the expansion. For Terran it's obvious, the overlord would be gone before the expansion is finished, and for Protoss it's certainly not hard to figure out a safe build that goes pressure into fast expand if they really need to do that (not to mention that they can just build one cannon near the expansion if they go fast forge expand). But it would really perfectly help against mass reaper and contains, while not changing really much in t2 balance. Without overlord speed, puking creep is really really limited anyways, since you can't just let your overlords fly into position until you're t2 because they'll get sniped easily by early pushes etc. The speed upgrade is basically what brings puking really into play. I have to say: Thumbs up frazz, never thought about it and it sounds totally awesome. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2010 08:06 heishe wrote: I disagree with your disagreement. All 'toss and Terran needs is one marine/stalker to free the expansion. For Terran it's obvious, the overlord would be gone before the expansion is finished, and for Protoss it's certainly not hard to figure out a safe build that goes pressure into fast expand if they really need to do that (not to mention that they can just build one cannon near the expansion if they go fast forge expand). But it would really perfectly help against mass reaper and contains, while not changing really much in t2 balance. Without overlord speed, puking creep is really really limited anyways, since you can't just let your overlords fly into position until you're t2 because they'll get sniped easily by early pushes etc. The speed upgrade is basically what brings puking really into play. I have to say: Thumbs up frazz, never thought about it and it sounds totally awesome. I think someone brought up the idea before, and the problem is that how strong it is changes drastically with regard to map position--on close positions on a 2-player map, the first overlord can prevent the wall-in/barracks addon from starting, which provides an enormous early-game benefit. It would be hard to balance the ability such that it would be relevant on far-away positions and 2-player maps, while at the same time not prohibitive on close positions. On August 25 2010 00:21 frazz wrote: Some might argue that it would be overpowered, if the overlords manage to creep opponents ramps, before they manage to block it. But the first marine is often out before the overlord reaches it, and the ramp is often already blocked off halfway. The problem is that "often" is iffy with balance. Giving zerg a boost that is drastically greater on close positions is setting yourself up for troubling map-balance issues in the future. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
I'd also like to see (but I don't think we could have both) ovie speed be T1 and cost less (50/50?). It's such an easy solution to the scouting problem imo. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
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NihiloZero
United States68 Posts
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Naumo
Slovakia10 Posts
On August 26 2010 07:31 JiMMyUriNE wrote: you should really play zerg for awhile and play against good terran players. your entire post would completely change O.o and for the wow analogy, Death Knights were extremely overpowered and anyone who did arenas with them before all the nerfs would agree. They are still viable in arena and raids and are still powerful... I was ranked 1 in 2v2 on mal'ganis by simply using bloodlust,hex,chain lightning at the start, while he popped his dancing blade and won within seconds. Sorry for straying off topic but the wow analogy really bugged me =P Yes indeed, DK was first absolutelyterriblybroken, then after first wave of nerfs it was very good, then good(but you had to play well), then rather weak and you had to time everything perfectly to kill anything, then you had to time all your defensive abilities to survive and after final nerfs I couldnt kill anything because main attack was nerfed to ground. Nice balancing, from total imba to total crap. First I was noob and was winning, then I was second best DK on server and couldnt win with best healer. I have no idea how strong it is now because i quitted wow after I became tired of getting gear to my warrior to do arena and waiting millions of weeks. I really know how terrible reapers and tanks are if you have to play against them, but muta harass is equally threatening and as terran you have to make things happen asap(pressure zerg or shut down his expands or loose), which makes reapers as only way to win(but really strong way ofc). Still with good defense and use of banelings/mutas Z can win. | ||
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sqwert
United States781 Posts
Zerg needs a long range splash damage unit too. All other races have one. | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
Viking range 8 and thor AA of 9 would be fine as well. Scan - currently it detects friggin 3 screens away. Its stupid - make detection only as wide as the damn icon | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
vikings have too much range. should be lowered to 7 or 8. i don't even say this from a ZvT perspective - i feel vikings are wayyy too strong against P and T right now. if/when maps get bigger, i feel this problem will just get worse. thors and medivacs are fine as-is imo. | ||
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frazz
Sweden15 Posts
On August 26 2010 08:11 TheYango wrote: I think someone brought up the idea before, and the problem is that how strong it is changes drastically with regard to map position--on close positions on a 2-player map, the first overlord can prevent the wall-in/barracks addon from starting, which provides an enormous early-game benefit. It would be hard to balance the ability such that it would be relevant on far-away positions and 2-player maps, while at the same time not prohibitive on close positions. The problem is that "often" is iffy with balance. Giving zerg a boost that is drastically greater on close positions is setting yourself up for troubling map-balance issues in the future. Right, I think terrans are pretty much safe though from 6pools even though they haven't walled off. Terrans can build their rax close to their CC and place a bunker to defend pretty well. For 'toss I have no clue, maybe someone else has a good strat against 6pools for toss without walling off? Except early pools I don't see how zerg would get enormous benefits. A gate/rax inside their main, build anti air unit, scare away/kill overlord, build at ramp as soon creep is gone. Maybe the creep could disappear faster as soon the overlord stopped pooping creep if it's too much of an issue. Or that the creep expands over a smaller area before lair. It's all hanging on the 'toss strat imo, walling of with pylons before ovie comes? How do 'toss save themselves from early rushes on maps with big ramps? Many pros don't even wall off their ramps early game, so I still don't see how this would be an issue. If it is an issue, its only an issue on close maps, on larger maps the overlords would do best by keeping themselves in your main and spread creep to help you defend from early reapers/helions. On August 27 2010 00:56 NihiloZero wrote: Because the Terran and the Protoss can wall off much more efficiently... it is the Zerg who need a unit which can leap up cliffs to scout and harass. Basically, I'd give the Reaper to the Zerg and make it a melee unit. Nah, that's not necessary, I would rather make the changling able to climb cliffs, but morphing back to changeling while climbing. And then morph back into looking like the opponent. This would be sneaker, if the opponent walled off, you still can get good scouting without revealing your overseer in his base. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
reduce missile turret dmg- cheap turrets should not completely shut down an expensive T2 unit's ability to harass, build some marines and a thor reduce thor's AA range- doesn't change TvP. thors are built to counter muta (which have 3 range) so there is no reason that they should be given 10? range increase cost of siege upgrade to 150/150- this upgrade is too powerful to be 100/100, even delaying the upgrade by 10-20 seconds will help zerg survive those nasty tank/marine pushes reduce bunker salvage to 50% it's a little ridiculous that terran can do a variety of different bunker rushes with no significant risk, and bunkers were perfectly fine in BW without the ability to salvage at all. toss players that cannon rush are in the hole for around 350-500 minerals, no reason that terran's should get to recoup their costs | ||
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Naumo
Slovakia10 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
Zerg needs to be buffed. If even half of those changes got implemented it would completely mess up TvP | ||
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
On August 11 2010 16:09 Samus wrote: This is similar to the Ret Paladin Argument trying to get them nerfed in WoW RET PALA OP, OMG SO OP But in the arenajunkies it shows that NO or very little ret paladins ever got into the top 100 or even won a tournament. Same with Terran except some actually get in but i've not seen a Terran actually win a tournament by using reaper rush or so called "OP" strats described in here. In the Previous post What i'm trying to say is. Zerg isn't underpowered majorly as some people trying to bring it out to be. But Terran is winning every tournament... and thats the whole f*cking point... mass Ts in every Tournament and always T in final and 98% winning... it sucks. gets boring. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 27 2010 02:26 tskarzyn wrote: a lot of crazy suggestions flying around that will break tvp and zvp. im alright with this matchup as is if we get better maps, but i think these are reasonable: reduce missile turret dmg- cheap turrets should not completely shut down an expensive T2 unit's ability to harass, build some marines and a thor reduce thor's AA range- doesn't change TvP. thors are built to counter muta (which have 3 range) so there is no reason that they should be given 10? range increase cost of siege upgrade to 150/150- this upgrade is too powerful to be 100/100, even delaying the upgrade by 10-20 seconds will help zerg survive those nasty tank/marine pushes reduce bunker salvage to 50% it's a little ridiculous that terran can do a variety of different bunker rushes with no significant risk, and bunkers were perfectly fine in BW without the ability to salvage at all. toss players that cannon rush are in the hole for around 350-500 minerals, no reason that terran's should get to recoup their costs The bunker and missile turret adjustments are reasonable. Siege upgrade change honestly isn't needed. It's hard to get it as is to stop bio in TvT and any sort of P aggression. It's also not the game breaker because actually hellions are much more effective early on given that unit counts are fairly low and mobility > splash. It wouldn't do anything except delay the one marine/tank push by a tiny bit. It's not the solution. Thor range nerf actually is fine, but not too drastic. 7 range at the minimum, probably 8 is reasonable. They need to at least be able to fight banshees effectively or you muck up TvT a bit. | ||
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alkampfer
116 Posts
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zerg4hire
81 Posts
1st Solution: Add an aditional buildilng specifically for Banshee production, on top of adding Add-on to the starport. Advantages for Zerg/Protoss: Slower production of Banshee. If you can scout their base with Banshee production building, you have time to respond. 2nd Solution: Make a whole new building for higher tech air units. (Banshee, Raven) - I mean it does not make any sense that terran spends 150/150 and has the ability to produce viking, medivacs, raven, banshee at any given time. This has to be resetricted as viking / banshees are far too strong as it is. | ||
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Optimator
United States53 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
Roaches back to 1 supply and slightly higher mineral cost (85 maybe) would fix lategame. | ||
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