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Hi =) I just started posting on TL, I'm a 550 point diamond 1v1 player, so that should make my points somewhat reasonable :p
For ZvT, I would like to address 2 points. The first would be early game ZvT.
The problems I face early game ZvT is mainly reaper harass. Bunker contain should be scouted, and can be dealt with by sending zerglings/drones to snipe the building scv. Reaper harass is overpowered in my opinion however. Their insane movespeed and decent range make them unstoppable. Its not an issue where my micro is bad, while the terrans is godly. When 2 diamond-level players micro zerglings vs reapers, the reapers -will- win. Reapers allow the terran to confine the zerg to 1 base play. Even when roaches are out, they are still too slow to catch hit and run reaper attacks.
My second point is Zerg mid-game strategies. If There is no reaper harass / I survive it, I find that Z is pretty much forced to go muta/bane/speedling. Siege tanks backed up by hellions / marines make any ground based army attack attempt laughable, be it speedling roach or hydra.
Now I know that SC2 =/= SC:BW, but when I played zerg in BW, I would generally go muta harass > lurker / defiler / crackling > ultraling. The defiler (with dark swarm) gives zerg the ability to attack a position fortified by a critical mass of siege tanks without getting wtfpwnt. In addition, queen micro gives Z the chance to snipe siege tanks from afar (little-used, although seen in action by Jaedong.)
In SC2, I muta harass,but in the late game, even ultraling forces get wiped by siege tanks backed by marines/hellions, cost for cost. So I'm pretty much forced to get broodlords.
The dropship terran playstyle mentioned earlier also worries me. So far I've only faced a couple of opponents using dropship play with blue hellions/stimmed marines harassing everywhere.
So yep, my 2cents! sorry if its abit disorganised
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I agree about the early game threat to zerg's ability to fast expand as being the number one problem in the matchup. So, I think reapers should not be allowed to enter bunkers. Their ability to harass zerg is hard enough but at least they require a hell of a lot of micro. If a terran gets a bunker down anywhere near the zerg's base, then they have a ridiculous safe zone to fall back to or to bombard the natural from.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 20 2010 22:59 RTKDeathWish wrote:
The problems I face early game ZvT is mainly reaper harass. Bunker contain should be scouted, and can be dealt with by sending zerglings/drones to snipe the building scv. Reaper harass is overpowered in my opinion however. Their insane movespeed and decent range make them unstoppable. Its not an issue where my micro is bad, while the terrans is godly. When 2 diamond-level players micro zerglings vs reapers, the reapers -will- win. Reapers allow the terran to confine the zerg to 1 base play. Even when roaches are out, they are still too slow to catch hit and run reaper attacks.
I think the biggest issue with bunker rushes isn't their power, but how utterly random your ability to stop them is. It doesn't matter that you pulled drones early enough to kill the SCV if it gets just enough time inside the build-animation where it's inside the bunker and invulnerable.
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Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down
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On August 20 2010 23:51 TeWy wrote:
Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down
I guess all the tournaments won by terran (they've been cleaning up most of them) are completely negated by a few zerg performing well in one single tournament.
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On August 20 2010 23:51 TeWy wrote:
Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down
Because top player win this doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
After seeing baller DIMAGA play I think I am going to do Mutalisk strats more often :D
Oh,and those Fungals and great positioned Banelings... <3
This might be the way.
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On August 20 2010 23:51 TeWy wrote:
Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down
If this matchup was anything close to balanced on high level play, Idra should've easily 3-0'ed SarenS
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On August 03 2010 04:04 Zoltan wrote:
Medics / medivacs have always been OP. Terran is the only race that does not have any natural regen at all, so you would expect their heal bus to actually have some effect on combat. Lowering the heal per second would really make the MMM strategy pretty useless.
in combat, protoss' or zerg's regen does not help at all.
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On August 20 2010 23:53 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:51 TeWy wrote:
Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down Because top player win this doesn't mean the problem does not exist. After seeing baller DIMAGA play I think I am going to do Mutalisk strats more often :D Oh,and those Fungals and great positioned Banelings... <3 This might be the way.
Na the best way is to keep QQing and ask for imba roachs and hydra once again.
Blizzard knows that a large part of their target market are arrogant and ignorant fools who believe that the world revolve around them and who can't accept the fact that their lose ratio might more be due to their lack of strategic thinking and skills rather than a hypothetical imbalance of a 3 weeks game, so they can't just ignore these people.
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Shouldn't threads like these be posted in Blizzard forums to make it effective and so that they might be able to take action if they want to =\
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On August 21 2010 00:12 dronelord wrote:
Shouldn't threads like these be posted in Blizzard forums to make it effective and so that they might be able to take action if they want to =\
they read this forum
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I hear alot of whining about how terran is imba and people expected a patch within the first week??
I was a terran player in BW and I can say I am happy with the changes, they finally made a balanced game as opposed to an imba game like BW.
The problem with terran in BW was that terran couldnt freely move its army, like a protoss or a zerg player could do. This was the main imbalance in my view, it was a meta game issue, not necessarily related to unit damage.
in SC2 they fixed that with the marauder, a much needed unit that now gives the terran the ability to move out without having mines in place and turrets up. I think alot of the whining comes from protoss and zerg players who wanted to continue to beat up on the weaker terran race. They are upset because they no longer have an easy target that they can just go proxy DT every 1/3.5 games and get a free win.
Not sure why Zerg are whining, but I think for similar reasons, they want their muta stack back. zerg and protoss are not very creative races, they just want to get their mutas or their DT's out and end the game then. I think thats why a majority of them are struggling because instead of watching their replays and thinking, what can I do better, or what is a good counter to this strategy, they come on the forums and wonder about when the "balancing" is going to take place. the balancing has already taken place, it was called beta.
If you look @ who the top players are, I know the korean zergs are absolutely crushing. the #1 player American player is Huk, a protoss. The next 2 top players are both non-terrans, Slush, whos a zerg, and TT1, a protoss. you dont even have a single terran in the top 3.
Most of the people crying for terran to be nerfed, you need to have your patience pants on. there is no need for a patch, and the game is balanced.
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On August 23 2010 23:13 911insidejob wrote:
The problem with terran in BW was that terran couldnt freely move its army
Did you never play Bio, like, ever?
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On August 21 2010 00:01 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:51 TeWy wrote:
Apparently, the 2 IEM quaterfinals won by Zerg weren't sufficient to convince all the noobs. I guess some of them are still used to that good old mass roaches/hydra a move that was destroying everything back during the beta when the hydra had 100 HP and that the roaches only costed 1 food.
Hope the tournament will end with a zvz final, maybe this will be enough to shut these people down If this matchup was anything close to balanced on high level play, Idra should've easily 3-0'ed SarenS
great argumentation. really. so evry loss flash/jaedong have against "lesser" players is proof that T/Z is underpowered?
think then post.
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Hi, I have some balancing suggestions of my own, that I find quite interesting, I have not read all pages so this might have been presented before.
1) The idea is that zerg really needs creep. So what if overlords could spread creep before lair? This would mean that zerg would be given the ability to expand the creep in their main to help out zerglings and roaches to move quicker and defend the main easier from early reaper/helion harasses. Also they are given the ability to creep their ramp, to prevent people from building them in or creep their expansion so pylons or bunkers won't be in the way and delay the zerg to much if their plan was to fast expand. This could mean that the opponent expects you to fast expand, but you could trick him this way.
Other fun stuff you could do is creep critical chokepoints and place spinecrawlers to defend early pushes. Creep opponents to delay early expands, delay supply-depots or pylons in their main, that they build to scout their own main. Lastly would be early hidden tech.
This would result in a much more interesting game in my opinion, because this would evolve more diversity in strategies.
Some might argue that it would be overpowered, if the overlords manage to creep opponents ramps, before they manage to block it. But the first marine is often out before the overlord reaches it, and the ramp is often already blocked off halfway.
2) As I'm typing I came up with the idea of have the creep-area on hatcheries to be slightly larger, or have it as an upgrade. Same as the suggestion before, this would help in early harasses.
I don't like this idea as much though.
3) Having overseers before lair is also a thought. Which would create interesting play with contaminate.
4) Overlord speed upgrade before lair could be interesting.
Both of the above would result in zergs being able to scout their opponent early game.
5) Roach speed upgrade available before lair. Could be a too huge game changer, so I'm not sure about this one.
6) Queens spawn larvae ability could be instant instead and spawn 2 additional larvae, instead of 4 over 40seconds. I'm not really sure about this one either, but it would benefit those with low macro, like the mules. (Could be a step in the wrong direction though, because that would mean that bad players gets to win way easier than before.)
For me it's all about making the game more fun, and I believe that reworking the overlords would result in a more fun game, that doesn't ruin it for terrans' and protoss' units. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this 
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I think there is way too many whining from ppl who havent even tried to 1. improve strategies(making mass ultra and --->A click shouldnt work all the time/ same with wtfpwning muta harras), 2. think where to attack(no, moving your whole army to attack planetary fortress and bunkers isnt the best idea, especially if there are vulnerable spots terran cant defend with his slow army and you have maphack on half of the map with creep) 3. get right units and use them right (like dimaga throwing 10 banelings to kill single thor while there is huge bio ball on other part of map etc., idra going just mass ultra against ever increasing bio ball).
And what terran unit is imba? Noobs may find marauders really strong, while zerg may bitch about thors much(it stops wtfpwning muta harrass that should buy them time to get pretty much anything). Is hellion strong or cloaked banshee? I dont really know if all these units are just so broken.
The point is that terran with some knowledge of BOs is really commanding the way the game goes. Zerg and toss have to pretty much react to what you do(like toss has to go some immortals to counter marauders, zerg has to worry about either reaper or hellion and there is always the threat of cloaked banshees. But really if you dont get some early game advantage you're going to have major problems with movement abilities and also reproduction of units(zerg can have zilions of larva to almost instantly remake their army or get fast antiair etc.) As terran you have to kill fast or get overrun. So most of the whole "terran imba thing" is problem with variety of terran units and inability of players to adapt. In case of players like idra its just nil strategic thinking and his idea that he should win each and every game with securing Fe and good micro/macro and just mass XY and attack. Just learn where to attack and where not and also get advantage of camping terran by taking many expos. I think some minor changes like small boost for Z or P and small T nerf would be enough. Whiners will still whine until blizz nerf things to ground -- same with DK in WoW, it was nerfed so much(in like 5 patches in the row) that in the end you could kill nothing in arena.
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On August 23 2010 23:13 911insidejob wrote:
I hear alot of whining about how terran is imba and people expected a patch within the first week??
I was a terran player in BW and I can say I am happy with the changes, they finally made a balanced game as opposed to an imba game like BW.
The problem with terran in BW was that terran couldnt freely move its army, like a protoss or a zerg player could do. This was the main imbalance in my view, it was a meta game issue, not necessarily related to unit damage.
in SC2 they fixed that with the marauder, a much needed unit that now gives the terran the ability to move out without having mines in place and turrets up. I think alot of the whining comes from protoss and zerg players who wanted to continue to beat up on the weaker terran race. They are upset because they no longer have an easy target that they can just go proxy DT every 1/3.5 games and get a free win.
Not sure why Zerg are whining, but I think for similar reasons, they want their muta stack back. zerg and protoss are not very creative races, they just want to get their mutas or their DT's out and end the game then. I think thats why a majority of them are struggling because instead of watching their replays and thinking, what can I do better, or what is a good counter to this strategy, they come on the forums and wonder about when the "balancing" is going to take place. the balancing has already taken place, it was called beta.
If you look @ who the top players are, I know the korean zergs are absolutely crushing. the #1 player American player is Huk, a protoss. The next 2 top players are both non-terrans, Slush, whos a zerg, and TT1, a protoss. you dont even have a single terran in the top 3.
Most of the people crying for terran to be nerfed, you need to have your patience pants on. there is no need for a patch, and the game is balanced.
you know whats fucking sad is this guy is probably high rated diamond terran. seriously.
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On August 11 2010 16:54 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 16:11 Ordained wrote:On August 03 2010 04:16 Jimmeh wrote:
Medivacs: Medivacs are expensive. Burrow is cheap and affects every single zerg unit. Medivacs heal one at a time, and have an energy cost to heal. Whilst I understand that they have a really fast heal rate, they're so expensive that they're hard to mass produce without cutting into your army size. Too many medivacs and your main army is overwhelmed, too few and your army dies after repeated battles. They're also amazingly fragile and easily sniped by just a few hydra shots.
Burrow only heals 1 unit, not every biological unit like the Medivac. This must be the dumbest reply ever ... every burrowed unit can heal up BECAUSE IT IS STEALTHED. It isnt as if Zerg units didnt heal on their own and burrowed Ultralisks are "safe" unless the opponent brings some detection. Also guess what ... Zerg healing doesnt even require energy which a Medivac can run out of. You do know that a Medivac only heals one unit at a time and can be shot down, right? It isnt like you research a "permanent regeneration buff" for biological units. You can also use burrow for other purposes like sneaking Roaches and Infestors into your enemies base. For a hilarious [/sarcasm on]copper[/sarcasm off] league FFA example you might want to watch this: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Woaw, bringing the fearsome CAPS LOCK to the table. Don't you know that you can drop with medivacs? You can also micro them so they dont get hit. And you can use a dropship to pick up a friendly unit so they don't get hit by the incoming projectiles. Like in scbw :D Its not really that cheap to get roach burrow, and claws you need lair, then you can research burrow and claws for a total amount of 200 gas and that's 8 roaches it does stack up but i don't think this is as good of an argument than the others x) Oh and roaches aren't stealthed while burrowed they are invisible because ghosts cannot make them visible with their emp. xdddd
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On August 25 2010 00:21 frazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Hi, I have some balancing suggestions of my own, that I find quite interesting, I have not read all pages so this might have been presented before.
1) The idea is that zerg really needs creep. So what if overlords could spread creep before lair? This would mean that zerg would be given the ability to expand the creep in their main to help out zerglings and roaches to move quicker and defend the main easier from early reaper/helion harasses. Also they are given the ability to creep their ramp, to prevent people from building them in or creep their expansion so pylons or bunkers won't be in the way and delay the zerg to much if their plan was to fast expand. This could mean that the opponent expects you to fast expand, but you could trick him this way.
Other fun stuff you could do is creep critical chokepoints and place spinecrawlers to defend early pushes. Creep opponents to delay early expands, delay supply-depots or pylons in their main, that they build to scout their own main. Lastly would be early hidden tech.
This would result in a much more interesting game in my opinion, because this would evolve more diversity in strategies.
Some might argue that it would be overpowered, if the overlords manage to creep opponents ramps, before they manage to block it. But the first marine is often out before the overlord reaches it, and the ramp is often already blocked off halfway.
I think that it would be to ovepowered since you could just creep your opponents expansion so early while you get a good economy.
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On August 25 2010 01:27 Naumo wrote:
I think there is way too many whining from ppl who havent even tried to 1. improve strategies(making mass ultra and --->A click shouldnt work all the time/ same with wtfpwning muta harras), 2. think where to attack(no, moving your whole army to attack planetary fortress and bunkers isnt the best idea, especially if there are vulnerable spots terran cant defend with his slow army and you have maphack on half of the map with creep) 3. get right units and use them right (like dimaga throwing 10 banelings to kill single thor while there is huge bio ball on other part of map etc., idra going just mass ultra against ever increasing bio ball).
And what terran unit is imba? Noobs may find marauders really strong, while zerg may bitch about thors much(it stops wtfpwning muta harrass that should buy them time to get pretty much anything). Is hellion strong or cloaked banshee? I dont really know if all these units are just so broken.
The point is that terran with some knowledge of BOs is really commanding the way the game goes. Zerg and toss have to pretty much react to what you do(like toss has to go some immortals to counter marauders, zerg has to worry about either reaper or hellion and there is always the threat of cloaked banshees. But really if you dont get some early game advantage you're going to have major problems with movement abilities and also reproduction of units(zerg can have zilions of larva to almost instantly remake their army or get fast antiair etc.) As terran you have to kill fast or get overrun. So most of the whole "terran imba thing" is problem with variety of terran units and inability of players to adapt. In case of players like idra its just nil strategic thinking and his idea that he should win each and every game with securing Fe and good micro/macro and just mass XY and attack. Just learn where to attack and where not and also get advantage of camping terran by taking many expos. I think some minor changes like small boost for Z or P and small T nerf would be enough. Whiners will still whine until blizz nerf things to ground -- same with DK in WoW, it was nerfed so much(in like 5 patches in the row) that in the end you could kill nothing in arena.
you should really play zerg for awhile and play against good terran players. your entire post would completely change O.o and for the wow analogy, Death Knights were extremely overpowered and anyone who did arenas with them before all the nerfs would agree. They are still viable in arena and raids and are still powerful... I was ranked 1 in 2v2 on mal'ganis by simply using bloodlust,hex,chain lightning at the start, while he popped his dancing blade and won within seconds. Sorry for straying off topic but the wow analogy really bugged me =P
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EPT
