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I'm a 800+ ELO Diamond Terran-player myself and I really hope Z get's buffed soon, cuz it's boring to always play against T or P, to only see T or P high in Tournaments and to only have boring games against Z on the ladder...
IMHO, a big Problem with Zerg are the Mutalisks VS Mech, here's my reasoning behind that:
1) Zerg often needs Mutalisks to deal with Map-imbalances like the Cliff on LT or just to have decent counter to Marauders, Hellions, Tanks, Reapers, Banshees etc.
2) Terran has incredibly strong Anti-Air: Turrets deal way to much DMG and so do Thors, all the while Terran would have good Anti-Air anywas with Marines.
3) Z can't really harrass with the Mutas because of the Turrets, Thors and the fact that Muta-Micro isn't really possible in SC2.
4) Against a Mech-Army, Zerg used to try to mess up the balance between Anti-Ground and Anti-Air Units of the Terran in SC:BW and surprise him either with lots of Hydras when the T had to many Goliaths/Valkyries or with a lot of Mutas when he had too many Tanks. In SC2, the Terran just needs a few Thors to completely shut down almost any number of Mutas and win with a good timing-push.
My wishlist for changes would be:
1) Make Turrets deal at least 2 DMG per shot less to Mutas
2) Make Thor Range 7 at start and give them a Range-Upgrade for 150/150 to 10 but give them their 150-mm-Cannon back at the start - this Upgrade isn't used anyways and with Ultras being Immune to it, it really isn't overpowered at all IMHO.
3) Bring back Muta-Micro - ppl on this board showed it's possible simply by messing with the Map-Editor! (I know this won't necessarily help Noobs, but it will make Mutas that much more effective, games more interesting and open up a lot of possibilities to use the Mutas better.)
I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the "make Terran harder to Macro-changes", because I think T needs a lot more Battle-Micro than Z, which evens out the "which race is harder to play-debate". Besides, atm. T is just easier to play against Z because of imbalances - when they fix that, T will automatically be a harder race to play in that MU.
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On August 16 2010 21:28 kickinhead wrote:
I'm a 800+ ELO Diamond Terran-player myself and I really hope Z get's buffed soon, cuz it's boring to always play against T or P, to only see T or P high in Tournaments and to only have boring games against Z on the ladder...
IMHO, a big Problem with Zerg are the Mutalisks VS Mech, here's my reasoning behind that:
1) Zerg often needs Mutalisks to deal with Map-imbalances like the Cliff on LT or just to have decent counter to Marauders, Hellions, Tanks, Reapers, Banshees etc.
2) Terran has incredibly strong Anti-Air: Turrets deal way to much DMG and so do Thors, all the while Terran would have good Anti-Air anywas with Marines.
3) Z can't really harrass with the Mutas because of the Turrets, Thors and the fact that Muta-Micro isn't really possible in SC2.
4) Against a Mech-Army, Zerg used to try to mess up the balance between Anti-Ground and Anti-Air Units of the Terran in SC:BW and surprise him either with lots of Hydras when the T had to many Goliaths/Valkyries or with a lot of Mutas when he had too many Tanks. In SC2, the Terran just needs a few Thors to completely shut down almost any number of Mutas and win with a good timing-push.
My wishlist for changes would be:
1) Make Turrets deal at least 2 DMG per shot less to Mutas
2) Make Thor Range 7 at start and give them a Range-Upgrade for 150/150 to 10 but give them their 150-mm-Cannon back at the start - this Upgrade isn't used anyways and with Ultras being Immune to it, it really isn't overpowered at all IMHO.
3) Bring back Muta-Micro - ppl on this board showed it's possible simply by messing with the Map-Editor! (I know this won't necessarily help Noobs, but it will make Mutas that much more effective, games more interesting and open up a lot of possibilities to use the Mutas better.)
I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the "make Terran harder to Macro-changes", because I think T needs a lot more Battle-Micro than Z, which evens out the "which race is harder to play-debate". Besides, atm. T is just easier to play against Z because of imbalances - when they fix that, T will automatically be a harder race to play in that MU.
I posted this in sevaral tvz topics:
On August 16 2010 19:50 Dente wrote:What can a terran do vs mass muta's without thors? Nothing! He has to sit a long time in his base and by the time he can move out, the zerg has enough expansions to destroy you. Turrets are good vs muta's, that's true, but 10+ muta's will destroy every turret in a second. You don't agree? Check this replay: http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=1250It's maka vs check. Is maka worse then check? I don't think so. Maka couldn't move out of his base for a very long time and by the time he had his third up, check could just play with him. Do you really believe that a terran who has to make tons of turrets and tons of groundforce, has enough money for making some vikings (against the broodlords)? Terrans can't expand that fast against a zerg abusing the shit out of them. I think this replay shows tvz from another perspective. Am I the only one having a hard time against zerg?
Explain me how a terran can leave his 2 bases when he doesn't have a thor with decent splash damage and weak turrets.. Muta's in large numbers rape turrets hard. Turrets cost 100. Do you really think a terran can make a lot of turrets on 2 bases while making a decent army?
Give back the muta micro? What are you thinking? Imagine muta micro in BW, but this time with 20+ muta's in 1 hotkey.
People seem to post suggestions without thinking about it!
My suggestion: 1 puke from the queen = 1 larvae. 1 puke = 15 energy (or less, dunno). BUT: the queen can puke 20 times with 20 clicks (for example) like the terran can do with mules.
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Here are my thoughts on fixing zerg with completely destroying ZvP balance.
Honestly? Reduce lair and hive build time by 10 seconds. The tech time is still substantial enough enough that omg quick mutas would not be more effective (terrans are able to deal with quick mutas currently and 10 seconds would not suddenly break that MU...lul) seeing as how toss deals with them fairly well.
Reduce spawning pool build time by 5 seconds. This would affect ZvZ a bit, and ZvP a bit, but seeing as how 2 gate pressure is almost the standard ZvP opener, I do not see this adversely affecting the MU.
Reduce queen build time by 10 seconds. This goes towards making tech a little less painful.
Roaches...this is kinda hard to change without making a gamebreaking change to ZvZ. I would make tunneling claws baseline. One less upgrade for lair tech when going for burrow roaches. This would hopefully open up roach play a bit without making drastic changes to ZvZ.
I feel it is underpowered for a supply 2 unit. I mean...boosting the damage or armor makes them godly against lings (2 armor or 18 damage). They already have higher HP. I would remove the armored modifier, remove the 1 armor, and bump them to 1 supply if a stat change was needed. But even that I would be hesitant to do because of how much it would affect all 3 matchups.
Zerglings, bump adrenal glands to 30%. I would love 50, but that would wreck lategame ZvP (I would love that still! Cracklings fighting!) Because suddenly the zergling overshadows the zealot (which is the real counter to lings) while wrecking the other units even more so. I would also reduce speed research by 10 seconds, making reaper harass a bit easier to deal with.
Banelings, I honestly cannot think of any change I would make aside from reducing centrifugal hooks to 100/100/100 from 150/150/110. Makes lair tech upgrades that much less painful.
Lair upgrades...ventral sacs is fine as is, and the transport upgrade should be bumped down from 200/200/200 to 100/100/100. The reasoning simply being ledge play is so strong right now and while one upgrade let's us have 100 mineral dropships, we need both to use them effectively. Ya, I know P and T have to tech for theirs, but they tech faster, tech better (1 building = multiple units possible), and remember, racial diversity does not equal imbalance.
Burrow should have a reduced cost, but have the same research time. Terran bio is punished pretty strongly now, and more so with the above mentioned baneling change. Roach burrow play would already be MUCH stronger because of the above mentioned change to them. No need to make it too easy for us.
Mutalisks should be faster (same speed as phoenix perhaps?) While getting 10 more hp. More effective harass that way since they are arguably the most neutered unit from BW (lack of micro, more effective AA for P and T) also reduced to 1 supply.
Hydralisks I would either buff HP by ten or damage by two. Makes them stronger or makes storm not quite the game ender it is now when they are caught off creep. Would make them a bit more effective against terran as they can beat a marauder a bit more efficiently now.
Nydus worm: make one nydus network able to build multiple worms at the same time. Still costly, but makes nydus assaults much more viable. I do not want to reduce cost much because I fell they are underutilized as it is.
Corruptors would be 100/100/1 down from 150/100/2. A little bit more easily used against colossi and vikings. Corrupt energy cost reduced to 50 energy, and in addition removes all armor from the target. Makes it a bit more effective and gives reason to add a few into an army while increasing micro potential since it would be single target still.
Infestors would either have the current NP baseline, or the infinte NP as a researched ability. This is partially for the ZvT matchup, but also because in ZvP countering colossi requires 2-3 infestors because of how easily they are sniped and the fact that 12 seconds is not enough. Too expensive for a supposed counter. IT is fine and fungal growth is the best spell in the game. Also, remove the armored modifier for a horrendously fragile unit for its cost.
Bro lords, increase armor to 2 and hp to 275. Fine aside from that, just a little too easily mudered by AtA from a unit that is meant to be on par with a carrier or BC in destructive power. I would prefer bigger buffs, but that is the bias in me.
Ultralisks...change base armor to 3, increase base damage by 5, decrease vs armor damage by 5 (no change is vs armor damage. This is more because this unit is meant to be the, and I mean The badass unit in the game. Highest armor, highest HP, strikes fear into the hearts of all. Makes it more effective vs T1 (Zealots and marines are surprisingly effective against them) and still maintains the same baddassery against armored.
All in all, the T1 and T2 changes are meant to open options and make teching/upgrades not as painful. T3 I feel should be stronger because of two main reasons. The first, for broodlords is that they are remarkably fragile for a sieging, BC sized fear inducing destroyer of turtles. Vikings with their range and vrays with there damage output murder them. Ultralisks are surprisingly ineffective against massed t1. There are options (snipe and immortals) people rarely use. Making them more effective would encourage more ghost (effective against ultra/ling play due tosnipe and bonus against light) and immortals (I do not seem them used much since the roach nerf)
Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
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United Arab Emirates245 Posts
How about nerfing how fast the duration it takes to tech up to lair & hive.
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On August 16 2010 21:35 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 21:28 kickinhead wrote:
I'm a 800+ ELO Diamond Terran-player myself and I really hope Z get's buffed soon, cuz it's boring to always play against T or P, to only see T or P high in Tournaments and to only have boring games against Z on the ladder...
IMHO, a big Problem with Zerg are the Mutalisks VS Mech, here's my reasoning behind that:
1) Zerg often needs Mutalisks to deal with Map-imbalances like the Cliff on LT or just to have decent counter to Marauders, Hellions, Tanks, Reapers, Banshees etc.
2) Terran has incredibly strong Anti-Air: Turrets deal way to much DMG and so do Thors, all the while Terran would have good Anti-Air anywas with Marines.
3) Z can't really harrass with the Mutas because of the Turrets, Thors and the fact that Muta-Micro isn't really possible in SC2.
4) Against a Mech-Army, Zerg used to try to mess up the balance between Anti-Ground and Anti-Air Units of the Terran in SC:BW and surprise him either with lots of Hydras when the T had to many Goliaths/Valkyries or with a lot of Mutas when he had too many Tanks. In SC2, the Terran just needs a few Thors to completely shut down almost any number of Mutas and win with a good timing-push.
My wishlist for changes would be:
1) Make Turrets deal at least 2 DMG per shot less to Mutas
2) Make Thor Range 7 at start and give them a Range-Upgrade for 150/150 to 10 but give them their 150-mm-Cannon back at the start - this Upgrade isn't used anyways and with Ultras being Immune to it, it really isn't overpowered at all IMHO.
3) Bring back Muta-Micro - ppl on this board showed it's possible simply by messing with the Map-Editor! (I know this won't necessarily help Noobs, but it will make Mutas that much more effective, games more interesting and open up a lot of possibilities to use the Mutas better.)
I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the "make Terran harder to Macro-changes", because I think T needs a lot more Battle-Micro than Z, which evens out the "which race is harder to play-debate". Besides, atm. T is just easier to play against Z because of imbalances - when they fix that, T will automatically be a harder race to play in that MU. I posted this in sevaral tvz topics: Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 19:50 Dente wrote:What can a terran do vs mass muta's without thors? Nothing! He has to sit a long time in his base and by the time he can move out, the zerg has enough expansions to destroy you. Turrets are good vs muta's, that's true, but 10+ muta's will destroy every turret in a second. You don't agree? Check this replay: http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=1250It's maka vs check. Is maka worse then check? I don't think so. Maka couldn't move out of his base for a very long time and by the time he had his third up, check could just play with him. Do you really believe that a terran who has to make tons of turrets and tons of groundforce, has enough money for making some vikings (against the broodlords)? Terrans can't expand that fast against a zerg abusing the shit out of them. I think this replay shows tvz from another perspective. Am I the only one having a hard time against zerg? Explain me how a terran can leave his 2 bases when he doesn't have a thor with decent splash damage and weak turrets.. Muta's in large numbers rape turrets hard. Turrets cost 100. Do you really think a terran can make a lot of turrets on 2 bases while making a decent army? Give back the muta micro? What are you thinking? Imagine muta micro in BW, but this time with 20+ muta's in 1 hotkey. People seem to post suggestions without thinking about it! My suggestion: 1 puke from the queen = 1 larvae. 1 puke = 15 energy (or less, dunno). BUT: the queen can puke 20 times with 20 clicks (for example) like the terran can do with mules.
Have you ever seen a TvZ in SC:BW?....
Or have you ever seen a TvZ in SC2 for that matter?...
T moves out waaaay earlier than Z can ever dream of getting either 3 bases or 10+ Mutas and T has no Problem at all moving out and just leaving like 3-5 Turrets in his base to defend against all the Mutas Z can possibly have at this time of the game.
Besides, T can easily turtle on 2 bases and get up a 3rd (on most Maps) while harrassing with Hellions, Reapers, Drops, Banshees, Vikings etc. Theres really no need for the timing-push T does atm against Z to have a chance against Z, it's just a rather easy win for T.
The only Problem I have with nerfing Thors and Turrets is that you'll have to rely heavily on Marines as Anti-Air and let's be honest: Banelings are highly imbalanced against Marines. Thats the reason why I play Mech VS Z - I don't wanna get steamrolled by Banelings. I've tried relying heavily on Bio and use Drops to not have to fight the Zerg head-on, but this only gets you so far against a Zerg that defends well, so besides Mass-Reaper-opening into Marauders into Ghosts (cuz good Anti-Air and decent against Blings), I really don't see another way than Mech to fight Z atm. But that does not mean Mech needs to stay as strong as it is right now. Even with weaker Turrets and Thors, the T would still have lot's of opportunities for very strong timing-attacks and good options to transition into a turtelling Macro-style.
But hey - that's just my humble opinion! ^^'
*Edit: And yeah - we've talked about Muta-Micro in SC2 A LOT and the larger Control-Groups really wouldn't make a difference at all, because as the control-groups increase, the DMG that AoE does increases as well, so the worst that could happen would be that in the Lategame, T would need a bit stronger AoE (Blizz could buff Hunter-Seeker-Missile or sth.) et voilà - larger Control-Groups of Mutas wouldn't be a Problem. This wouldn't mess up PvZ either, cuz of Storms and Archon-AoE: Worst-Case Scenario would be that Blizz had to Buff Archon-AoE or DMG a bit... -.-°
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On August 16 2010 21:57 kickinhead wrote:
Have you ever seen a TvZ in SC:BW?....Or have you ever seen a TvZ in SC2 for that matter?...
T moves out waaaay earlier than Z can ever dream of getting either 3 bases or 10+ Mutas and T has no Problem at all moving out and just leaving like 3-5 Turrets in his base to defend against all the Mutas Z can possibly have at this time of the game.
Besides, T can easily turtle on 2 bases and get up a 3rd (on most Maps) while harrassing with Hellions, Reapers, Drops, Banshees, Vikings etc. Theres really no need for the timing-push T does atm against Z to have a chance against Z, it's just a rather easy win for T.
The only Problem I have with nerfing Thors and Turrets is that you'll have to rely heavily on Marines as Anti-Air and let's be honest: Banelings are highly imbalanced against Marines. Thats the reason why I play Mech VS Z - I don't wanna get steamrolled by Banelings. I've tried relying heavily on Bio and use Drops to not have to fight the Zerg head-on, but this only gets you so far against a Zerg that defends well, so besides Mass-Reaper-opening into Marauders into Ghosts (cuz good Anti-Air and decent against Blings), I really don't see another way than Mech to fight Z atm. But that does not mean Mech needs to stay as strong as it is right now. Even with weaker Turrets and Thors, the T would still have lot's of opportunities for very strong timing-attacks and good options to transition into a turtelling Macro-style.
But hey - that's just my humble opinion! ^^'
I posted a game between maka and check as an example so yes, I saw a TVZ sc2 game. I also saw tvz BW games and I saw goliaths doing an awesome job vs muta's. I don't want a big slow goliath (aka thor with a nerf). Check the replay I posted please.
By the time you have your 3th up, the zerg had 2 more bases and you know that it's over then.
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imo vikings need a buff against mutas and thors need their aoe removed.
the thing is, without thors anti air, terran would have a really really really hard time countering mutas, as vikings are not a cost effective counter to mutas right now. but on the other hand, 4 or 5 thors will absolutely rape 40+ mutas, which is ridiculous imo.
the viking buff would be good, as it would force terran to actually build more airports and produce many many vikings to keep up with the zerg. it would give zerg a chance to command the unit composition of the game, not alone terran.
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On August 16 2010 22:01 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 21:57 kickinhead wrote:
Have you ever seen a TvZ in SC:BW?....Or have you ever seen a TvZ in SC2 for that matter?...
T moves out waaaay earlier than Z can ever dream of getting either 3 bases or 10+ Mutas and T has no Problem at all moving out and just leaving like 3-5 Turrets in his base to defend against all the Mutas Z can possibly have at this time of the game.
Besides, T can easily turtle on 2 bases and get up a 3rd (on most Maps) while harrassing with Hellions, Reapers, Drops, Banshees, Vikings etc. Theres really no need for the timing-push T does atm against Z to have a chance against Z, it's just a rather easy win for T.
The only Problem I have with nerfing Thors and Turrets is that you'll have to rely heavily on Marines as Anti-Air and let's be honest: Banelings are highly imbalanced against Marines. Thats the reason why I play Mech VS Z - I don't wanna get steamrolled by Banelings. I've tried relying heavily on Bio and use Drops to not have to fight the Zerg head-on, but this only gets you so far against a Zerg that defends well, so besides Mass-Reaper-opening into Marauders into Ghosts (cuz good Anti-Air and decent against Blings), I really don't see another way than Mech to fight Z atm. But that does not mean Mech needs to stay as strong as it is right now. Even with weaker Turrets and Thors, the T would still have lot's of opportunities for very strong timing-attacks and good options to transition into a turtelling Macro-style.
But hey - that's just my humble opinion! ^^'
I posted a game between maka and check as an example so yes, I saw a TVZ sc2 game. I also saw tvz BW games and I saw goliaths doing an awesome job vs muta's. I don't want a big slow goliath (aka thor with a nerf). Check the replay I posted please. By the time you have your 3th up, the zerg had 2 more bases and you know that it's over then.
And what exactly should this replay prove?
That a ridiculous large number of Mutas can destroy Turrets easily? Well - who would've seen that one coming?
Turrets shouldn't be meant to totally shut down Muta-harrass, but to buy you time to go defend with your other Units, that's the way it was in SC:BW and it worked fine. T had to stay in the base and couldn't just push out and defend against any Muta-harrass with a few hundred Minerals invested in Turrets. Z should be able to punish T for moving out with his slow Mech-Army so that T had to turtle more instead of having incredibly strong timing-attacks.
T still has a lot of options to apply pressure to the Zerg even when he'd have to stay in his base turtelling and IMHO, T can easily stay on the same amount or just 1 base lower than Zerg and defend just fine, you just have to scout when Z takes expansions or when he tries to move out.
Just before I've had a game against a decent Zerg and it ended up being a huge Macro-wars and I didn't have trouble keeping up with the Zergs Macro, even though it was cross-position on Metalopolis. It's really not the case that T needs the timing push most Mech-players do atm against Zerg that use Mutas (I mean 2 fact Hellions with Upgrade into Thors with +1 Armor and a few Tanks while having nothing but a few Turrets in the base to defend against a Muta-Counterattack). Zerg really can't face this Army-composition head-on when he has invested a lot of Ressources in Mutas, because they completely get ripped apart by the Thors and the Zerg can't counterattack with the Mutas, because the number of Mutas he has at this point (about 10) can't do enough DMG to even out the timing-push of the Terran, which will ultimately destroy the Zerg if he does not face it with everything he has.
Watch this Replay: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/35380
Silver pushed out a bit later than usual, but it shows perfectly how Z is unable to either harrass with the Mutas or defend against the push with them...
@heishe: Marines and Turrets counter Mutas very well, the only thing why you need the Thors are the Banelings. But have you ever tried using Ghosts in TvZ? They rape Mutas hard and are decent against Banelings (cuz they're not "light"). It's not like T needs Thors just to counter Mutas, it's just the easiest and most comfortable way atm...
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i am a zerg player , if blizzard give me Lurker and a little nerf terran everything ok for me  , now tvz so hard for us(zerg players) , if terran have 5-8 tanks you probably never chance in this game because marine/marauder/thor going to first and back tanks "siege mode" 5-8 tanks in siege & all tanks 1-2 shoot kill 7-12 roach , this is balanced ? not so hard with tanks 1-2 shoot right? probably first going thor/marine/marauder possible tanks hit 10 shoot
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it doesn't take one shot to kill Roaches. >.>
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On August 16 2010 22:35 Samus wrote:
it doesn't take one shot to kill Roaches. >.>
Yes, they should fix that.
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Seems like good suggestion to fix the ZvT imbalance ! I support the OP's ideas !
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I would honestly just like a range nerf on the thor. There is no reason for ranged 10 missiles on the thing, make them range 7 or 8 and they will still be effective but 10 is just over the top. Actually making the ground attack a base 5 requiring an upgrade to get to 7 (a little like the colossus) it would avoid some cliff problems with thors.
Really though they could just not make retarded maps with a cliff over the natural (and in the case of Kulas, behind every single mineral line on the map except the mains). Zerg can deal with cliffs just a little later, the problem is the very early cliff drop that Zerg has almost no options to defend (1 base muta? lol).
The time on the lair and especially Hive should also be shortened, takes way too long to get access to our already reduced unit pool. The basic issue here is that a 1/1/1 Terran build gets access to every unit except BCs and ghosts (so 10-11 attacking units) at the same time as we choose our T2 tech (so we have lings, one of the 1.5s and a tier 2 for a total of 3 units). Seems a little silly that the BC rush comes out only just after Zerg t2.
On top of that the Terran player is given the best harass units and the best harass defense in the game (the reaper/hellion and the wall-in).
A reduction in drop cost and time for Zerg would make it more viable as well, I just don't understand what Blizzard is thinking making all the Zerg upgrades and buildings so much longer than the other race's.
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On August 16 2010 23:51 Sixes wrote:
Really though they could just not make retarded maps with a cliff over the natural (and in the case of Kulas, behind every single mineral line on the map except the mains). Zerg can deal with cliffs just a little later, the problem is the very early cliff drop that Zerg has almost no options to defend (1 base muta? lol).
That's a good point. IMHO, the biggest Issues with TvZ, which is Mech being OP would be totally nullified if Blizz just made bigger Maps. I've played some games today against Z on ICCUP-Maps like Fighting Spirit and Sanshore Mist and it was way harder to pull off a simple timing-attack with Mech and the games ended up being really fun and interesting Macro-Games.
Even on Matchpoint, which has good spots to abuse Tanks, I had more problems with Mech than on most of the Blizzard-Maps.
On such Maps, Bio also get's a boost, because Drops and an overall more mobile Army is just better on bigger Maps obviously, so we'd see a lot more Bio-play against Z, which Z has very good counters against.
cya
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Those Iccup maps I feel are completely balanced, watching Zerg play on it. I saw Huk complaining about the large size of the map allowing Zerg to easily expand and cover the map, and without a lot of chokes its hard for P and T to whittle away Zerg's food and larva production capabilities.
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On August 16 2010 22:15 heishe wrote:
imo vikings need a buff against mutas and thors need their aoe removed.
the thing is, without thors anti air, terran would have a really really really hard time countering mutas, as vikings are not a cost effective counter to mutas right now. but on the other hand, 4 or 5 thors will absolutely rape 40+ mutas, which is ridiculous imo.
the viking buff would be good, as it would force terran to actually build more airports and produce many many vikings to keep up with the zerg. it would give zerg a chance to command the unit composition of the game, not alone terran.
Perhaps the viking upgrade frome the campaign that gives them AOE could be researched in the tech lab/fusion core to coincide with a thor nerf. It might make vikings a little too good though.
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Honestly at this point they just have to do something, the balance is just way off. I really can't understand why it's taking so long.
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On August 17 2010 02:41 brad drac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 22:15 heishe wrote:
imo vikings need a buff against mutas and thors need their aoe removed.
the thing is, without thors anti air, terran would have a really really really hard time countering mutas, as vikings are not a cost effective counter to mutas right now. but on the other hand, 4 or 5 thors will absolutely rape 40+ mutas, which is ridiculous imo.
the viking buff would be good, as it would force terran to actually build more airports and produce many many vikings to keep up with the zerg. it would give zerg a chance to command the unit composition of the game, not alone terran. Perhaps the viking upgrade frome the campaign that gives them AOE could be researched in the tech lab/fusion core to coincide with a thor nerf. It might make vikings a little too good though.
Honestly, if it has the same aoe range as the thor but a little lower damage (but more damage on main target), that sounds like an incredible idea.
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On August 16 2010 22:01 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 21:57 kickinhead wrote:
Have you ever seen a TvZ in SC:BW?....Or have you ever seen a TvZ in SC2 for that matter?...
T moves out waaaay earlier than Z can ever dream of getting either 3 bases or 10+ Mutas and T has no Problem at all moving out and just leaving like 3-5 Turrets in his base to defend against all the Mutas Z can possibly have at this time of the game.
Besides, T can easily turtle on 2 bases and get up a 3rd (on most Maps) while harrassing with Hellions, Reapers, Drops, Banshees, Vikings etc. Theres really no need for the timing-push T does atm against Z to have a chance against Z, it's just a rather easy win for T.
The only Problem I have with nerfing Thors and Turrets is that you'll have to rely heavily on Marines as Anti-Air and let's be honest: Banelings are highly imbalanced against Marines. Thats the reason why I play Mech VS Z - I don't wanna get steamrolled by Banelings. I've tried relying heavily on Bio and use Drops to not have to fight the Zerg head-on, but this only gets you so far against a Zerg that defends well, so besides Mass-Reaper-opening into Marauders into Ghosts (cuz good Anti-Air and decent against Blings), I really don't see another way than Mech to fight Z atm. But that does not mean Mech needs to stay as strong as it is right now. Even with weaker Turrets and Thors, the T would still have lot's of opportunities for very strong timing-attacks and good options to transition into a turtelling Macro-style.
But hey - that's just my humble opinion! ^^'
I posted a game between maka and check as an example so yes, I saw a TVZ sc2 game. I also saw tvz BW games and I saw goliaths doing an awesome job vs muta's. I don't want a big slow goliath (aka thor with a nerf). Check the replay I posted please. By the time you have your 3th up, the zerg had 2 more bases and you know that it's over then.
I just had a game vs T. I went 2 hatch muta, everything went awesome, I had 800/800 exactly as my spire popped, 8 mutas out, on scarp station even, only short flying path, BAM 3 missile turrets and 1 thor totally shut down any harassment on my part. Because my APM is very low, I actually lost 4 mutas within 3 sec before I knew what was going on. Missile turrets are beasts, they melt mutas so fast it's not even funny.
I honestly don't see the problem that terran cannot move out because of mutas. If I have like 20+ mutas, yes turrets die fast, even with repair, but are you honestly saying a terran should just make 3 turrets and that will keep his eco safe from an infinite amount of mutalisks? Even one Thor with 8 repairing SCVs can probably take on 10 mutas (actually, that would be interesting to test, gotta do that some time). I'm not even saying that splash should be removed on Thors, but reducing splash radius and/or splash damage and/or range should certainly be tested.
I agree on muta micro though, with unlimited control groups that would be insane. How about introducing viking micro though? Nerf their range and damage, but buff their speed, so proper hit and run is possible.
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Since we're throwing out our dream fixes...
T1 burrow
1.5 supply roach
1.5 supply hydra
Increase broodlord movement speed a bit, not much
Remove the Reaper from the game
Reduce Viking range to 7, but increase their speed slightly, possibly add in moving shot
Do something about the Thor, range nerfs on both air and ground should suffice, their movement speed can be increased ever-so-slightly
I'm sure there's others, but I can't think of them right now.
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EPT
