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On August 16 2010 22:01 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 21:57 kickinhead wrote:
Have you ever seen a TvZ in SC:BW?....Or have you ever seen a TvZ in SC2 for that matter?...
T moves out waaaay earlier than Z can ever dream of getting either 3 bases or 10+ Mutas and T has no Problem at all moving out and just leaving like 3-5 Turrets in his base to defend against all the Mutas Z can possibly have at this time of the game.
Besides, T can easily turtle on 2 bases and get up a 3rd (on most Maps) while harrassing with Hellions, Reapers, Drops, Banshees, Vikings etc. Theres really no need for the timing-push T does atm against Z to have a chance against Z, it's just a rather easy win for T.
The only Problem I have with nerfing Thors and Turrets is that you'll have to rely heavily on Marines as Anti-Air and let's be honest: Banelings are highly imbalanced against Marines. Thats the reason why I play Mech VS Z - I don't wanna get steamrolled by Banelings. I've tried relying heavily on Bio and use Drops to not have to fight the Zerg head-on, but this only gets you so far against a Zerg that defends well, so besides Mass-Reaper-opening into Marauders into Ghosts (cuz good Anti-Air and decent against Blings), I really don't see another way than Mech to fight Z atm. But that does not mean Mech needs to stay as strong as it is right now. Even with weaker Turrets and Thors, the T would still have lot's of opportunities for very strong timing-attacks and good options to transition into a turtelling Macro-style.
But hey - that's just my humble opinion! ^^'
I posted a game between maka and check as an example so yes, I saw a TVZ sc2 game. I also saw tvz BW games and I saw goliaths doing an awesome job vs muta's. I don't want a big slow goliath (aka thor with a nerf). Check the replay I posted please. By the time you have your 3th up, the zerg had 2 more bases and you know that it's over then.
It's by no means over, I think it was Sheth - Morrow: Sheth dominated the whole map while morrow was sitting at 2, once Morrow decided to push out he steamrolled sheth. And Sheth is not a lousy player. I cant find the replay but its somewhere among Djwheats replays I think, Chill and Catz commentated.
Edit: crappy start at a new page -.-"
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1.5 supply roach and hydra seems reasonable, due the lack of swarming zerg
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sc2 balance is epic failllll , i gonna play sc1 with my dear lurkersssss
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What I would like to see is less awkward tech tree for Zerg.
Both P and T can do reasonably well with only massing tier1. Zerg gets the shaft in SC2 because they can't access ranged units until Lair is available.
Protoss has to make a Cyber Core in order to make Stalkers, that's a 50sec wait.
Zerg has to make a Lair (80sec) and then make a Hydralisk Den, which is another 40sec.
I doubt Blizz would change tech trees at this point, but IMHO, just lowering Lair's build time to 60sec would make a huge difference. I think it would be quite justified, considering the Lair doesn't unlock units on it's own like a cyber core / tech labs, but instead requires you to build another 40/50/100 sec building in order to do anything.
Hive should probably be lowered too, probably to 80.
Of course there's the notion that Zerg units are easily countered compared to others, but I think one of the things that make it seem harsher is the fact that it takes forever to unlock them. The opponent knows he doesn't have to fear hydras/mutas for a looooong time, which gives him more freedom.
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What about giving zerg a cloaked unit, that only remains cloaked while on creep? Perhaps you could morph a roach (think ling --> baneling) without the need for an extra building but at a fairly decent cost of like 50/50 per morph? It would allow for some interesting defense tactics early game.
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On August 17 2010 21:58 Phrencys wrote:
What I would like to see is less awkward tech tree for Zerg.
Both P and T can do reasonably well with only massing tier1. Zerg gets the shaft in SC2 because they can't access ranged units until Lair is available.
Protoss has to make a Cyber Core in order to make Stalkers, that's a 50sec wait.
Zerg has to make a Lair (80sec) and then make a Hydralisk Den, which is another 40sec.
I doubt Blizz would change tech trees at this point, but IMHO, just lowering Lair's build time to 60sec would make a huge difference. I think it would be quite justified, considering the Lair doesn't unlock units on it's own like a cyber core / tech labs, but instead requires you to build another 40/50/100 sec building in order to do anything.
Hive should probably be lowered too, probably to 80.
Of course there's the notion that Zerg units are easily countered compared to others, but I think one of the things that make it seem harsher is the fact that it takes forever to unlock them. The opponent knows he doesn't have to fear hydras/mutas for a looooong time, which gives him more freedom.
Yeah I'd say this is more or less accurate. Without a ranged unit there's really no real threat to a wall-in. Stalkers, marines, marauders, and even hellions can all hit roaches from the far side of a wall.
The thing about hydras is even once you get them you can't offensively use them until much later because taking them off creep when armies are equal sized is very dangerous.
Honestly one thing I'd like to see is the cost of Nydus worms changed. They don't need to be cheaper, but my problem with them is they're gas intensive (300 gas for network + worm).
If the cost was say 200/150 - 150/50 or perhaps even a slight discount at 150/150 - 150/50 or 200/150 - 100/50 (or something like that) they'd be a lot more usable. Even putting the majority of the cost on the network would make them really usable (200/200 - 50/50). The problem is I'd love to use them as an outside of base thing to be aggressive with my hydras early on, but hydras already soak up all my gas and the choice between 3 hydras, tech, or the network pretty much always ends up on the side of the 3 hydras or tech. If I'm making any other unit I don't need the network to be aggressive with my units and the only use for them is in-base which is a risk vs any attentive player.
I try to be really good about using nydus, but it always feels like a luxury and in any tight spot it's the first thing cut out of my budget in favor of stuff that makes me 'not die'.
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A slight bump ...
Given the debate of strength of terran versus the other races (specifically zerg) I'd really like to collect thoughts on what a majority of the community feels would be a suitable fix. I've seen some really outrageous nerfs that I thought was beyond the measure needed.
The difficulty of nerfing the terrans is that often it is considered within the bubble of simply one matchup while each race actually has three, the other two and the mirror. Nerfs that fail to take this into account end up being disasters (ie. Warlocks in WoW through their many changes).
IMO, the main point of the terrans is that their critical upgrades come online at a significantly quicker rate and less risk-reward compared to the other races. Extreme allins are easily preventable due to salvageable bunkers, smoother wallin due to depot lowering and building lifts allowing terrans a versatility that other races cannot match. While this by itself isn't a bad thing as it is a terran racial strength, the ability to quickly get ALL their upgrades online makes the versatility simply overpowering.
Thus, I propose two points aimed at toning down these advantages.
Concussive Shell, Blue Flames and Siege Mode all possesses separate problems.
Concussive Shell and Siege mode simply costs too little for the amount they do. An increase of 50/50 for both isn't entirely unwarranted IMO.
Blue Flames is able to come online far too early for Hellion's effectiveness at raiding. The damage bonus is also unreal as you're effectively paying a one time investment at doubling their damage! A standard armory upgrade costs 160 in terms of research time and I believe a small bump to 130 ish research time for Blue Flames is fine.
Lastly, being able to swap tech labs and reactors among your buildings with no downtime through the lift/land mechanic requires some tweaking. Being able to so easily swap between building choices and quickly too had always been a Zerg forte and the ability to simply "tech switch" so easily as Terran strikes me a bit odd. Once again, I propose a small subtle nerf in this area. Every time you land upon an addon as terran, a build time meter is required similar to how long it would take for one to actually build such an addon. You still save upon the cost of the add on itself.
Most of these proposed nerfs are simply small timing issues that I feel would bring the terran back to earth. A significant portion of them goes towards forcing a terran to choose a specific build order rather than having a scout read rax, refinery, fact as a "???".
Let me know what you guys think . =)
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What if the Roach and Infestor could tunnel under buildings? This would give Zerg another harassment/scouting option (mainly against wall-ins) and would also buff the under-utilized tunneling ability. Also, it just makes sense, since (at least for Terrans) their buildings don't seem to have any underground infrastructure that would prevent units from tunneling under them.
Slightly less seriously, if a roach unburrows while under a unit-producing building, the roach will have "infiltrated" that building, and the next unit that the building produces would instead be that roach.
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I really don't like any of these. Only half decent suggestion is the Bunker suggestion. And just the Salvage part.
Imo something I'd really like to see is Tunneling Claws being made inherent. Its a really small change, but the Roach feels still balanced like a basic 1 supply generalist instead of a niche reactionary unit.
Also the Viking "nerf" is a buff. Movingshot vikings mean Vikings>>>>Mutas, instead of a more even dynamic of range versus outright dps.
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Make certain Burrowed units able to 'wall-walk' like cols or reapers. Lair Tech. Midgame is where I think zerg has the most problem with Terran because that's about the time Terran is hitting critical mass and ideal army comp, and when Zerg isn't fully macro'd or teched.
Terran doesn't need Nerfing. Zerg needs more choices.
Just sayin'.. Just sayin'..
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the last suggestion is not really a good one although i agree with it somewhat. burrowing under buildings should make total sense.
however a terran would just spent 100 minerals on a missile turret for detection and boem goes your roach... wouldnt solve a damn thing.
Me personally, iv been a zerg player from the get go. in SC1 and broodwar everything was balanced. now blizzard wanted to give us more toys yet keep the balance. in attempting to do this they forgot to look at the the race mechanics IMO. Thats where the shift should be. Zerg are no longer the agressive fast expanding bad asses they were. they actually turned into a less effective terran when compared to BW. We basically are confined to 1 base and turtle to build up and spread creep. If we fast expand were hung due to reaper, 2 gate push (although doable, if the toss knows his stuff, your not gonna win or at least be at a disadvantage) to name a few things. protoss still fullfill their roles as they did in BW only have been given a mad boost to speed in building units (warpgate/chronoboost) and having the ability to be agressive. this alone sets them to be a reasonable match to how OP terran is atm. A race that in BW required actual good macro to play has stolen zergs old spot. they can multiproduce units due to reactors and can switch buildings between those to crank out crazy fast mass units of every makeup. (effectively cutting the time of how long it takes to get such units) while being able to fast expand and make this expand virtually untouchable. no other race can do this. seriously, didnt the developers see what would happen to the metagame when they thought this up? the race mechanics in my eyes are completly off.
and what i fear the most is that the necessary buffs to zerg will come in heart of the swarm making ZvT balanced while screwing ZvP up in zergs favor. the ranting will start anew until the protoss expand comes out and evens everything. I already thought that blizzard was greedy and mean but I fear we havent even begun to see how mean they can be. Think about it. Sure most of us would buy the expands anway, but lets just ensure that every SC2 fan needs to buy the expands
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Honestly guys, funny how everyone mentions balancy in Brood War. When BW started, it wasn't balanced either (and I don't mean before patch 1.16.1), ZvP was completely favored till zerg, until fast expand into corsair play was more popular. I just think a new strategy has to come out for Zerg, e.g. Expanding with mass queens (just an example).
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Also regarding terran macro mechanic being the easiest...thats because terran macro is easily the hardest.
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On August 20 2010 17:22 Half wrote:
Also regarding terran macro mechanic being the easiest...thats because terran macro is easily the hardest.
Wait, what?
66 SS, <shift> E click, click, click
22
5 AA, tab, TT, tab, VV, right click
Oh shit, with 20 actions, I just made 2 SCVs, 3 MULEs, 2 marines, 2 thors, and 2 vikings (though I'm sure they're in the wrong order) and rallied them to the fight where I really don't have to do anything because all my shit auto fires on its own and my SCVs auto repair.
Damn T has it bad when it comes to macro.
Edit: had to add the double number hits in there, gotta move that camera too.
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My few sugestions to improve zerg a bit :
roach : lower back to 1 supply cost. I think the nerf in the beta was too much. make it 1 supply again might help the problem zerg have with 200 supply army. (+ Blizzard said when they made them cost 2 supply that it was to balance the 200 supply armies between zerg and the other race :/ )
roach (+infestor ?) : give them the possibility to go past clieves when they have burrowmove. It would open new ways to harass with more different units in midgame. Zerg are definitely lacking in terms of strategies and that may help to see some diversity.
Overseer : make the corruption ability totally disable a building : upgrades would stop and towers would not fire. Maybe lower the energy cost to 50 too. atm, the corruption ability has no use. I never saw it used and can't think of a way to use it efficiently. This might add new possibilities to the zerg gameplay (which zerg are definitely lacking imo)
Overseer : increase build time to 30sec. from the moment zerg are t2, they can have moving detectors in 17secs. Even if they are caught off guard with cloack units, they can react too fast imo.
Nydus : lower the build time to 12sec. Nydus are too long to build atm. I'd like to remove the sound it makes too but it might hurt the lower leagues
Queen : make transfusion cost 25 energy and heal for 75. That would make the transfusion ability more useful (it is barely used atm). That would allow to heal more efficiently some units out of combat.
Hive/lair : lower the build time to 60sec for both. It is sooo long for Zerg to tech : 65 pool + 50 queen + 80 lair + 50 infestor + 100 hive + 65 ultralisk = 410secs
It takes 270 secs for protoss to unlock colossus and 235 sec for terran to unlock battlecruiser. Zerg can't fast tech which diminish the number of differents starts they can do (terran are amazing from this pov tbh).
Was just a few thoughts...
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On August 20 2010 18:18 Lcfl wrote:
My few sugestions to improve zerg a bit :
roach : lower back to 1 supply cost. I think the nerf in the beta was too much. make it 1 supply again might help the problem zerg have with 200 supply army. (+ Blizzard said when they made them cost 2 supply that it was to balance the 200 supply armies between zerg and the other race :/ )
roach (+infestor ?) : give them the possibility to go past clieves when they have burrowmove. It would open new ways to harass with more different units in midgame. Zerg are definitely lacking in terms of strategies and that may help to see some diversity.
Overseer : make the corruption ability totally disable a building : upgrades would stop and towers would not fire. Maybe lower the energy cost to 50 too. atm, the corruption ability has no use. I never saw it used and can't think of a way to use it efficiently. This might add new possibilities to the zerg gameplay (which zerg are definitely lacking imo)
Overseer : increase build time to 30sec. from the moment zerg are t2, they can have moving detectors in 17secs. Even if they are caught off guard with cloack units, they can react too fast imo.
Nydus : lower the build time to 12sec. Nydus are too long to build atm. I'd like to remove the sound it makes too but it might hurt the lower leagues
Queen : make transfusion cost 25 energy and heal for 75. That would make the transfusion ability more useful (it is barely used atm). That would allow to heal more efficiently some units out of combat.
Hive/lair : lower the build time to 60sec for both. It is sooo long for Zerg to tech : 65 pool + 50 queen + 80 lair + 50 infestor + 100 hive + 65 ultralisk = 410secs
It takes 270 secs for protoss to unlock colossus and 235 sec for terran to unlock battlecruiser. Zerg can't fast tech which diminish the number of differents starts they can do (terran are amazing from this pov tbh).
Was just a few thoughts...
Not to rub anyone the wrong way here, but saying that transfusion is not used often, is kind of lying really. Or no, it's straight out lying. People tend to use it often in every matchup, a lot of people get 1 extra queen for AA or just creep/def purpose. And that extra queen is great for healing.
On topic though, seems reasonable to wait and see what blizzard decides to do, aint like we are making any changes ourselves. All we can do is try and improve and see if there is something we can come up with to combat the terrans ! (though they are hard as shit atm on some maps blist/steps of war/lost tempel/kulas ravine)
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United States47024 Posts
On August 19 2010 05:00 KissBlade wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A slight bump ...
Given the debate of strength of terran versus the other races (specifically zerg) I'd really like to collect thoughts on what a majority of the community feels would be a suitable fix. I've seen some really outrageous nerfs that I thought was beyond the measure needed.
The difficulty of nerfing the terrans is that often it is considered within the bubble of simply one matchup while each race actually has three, the other two and the mirror. Nerfs that fail to take this into account end up being disasters (ie. Warlocks in WoW through their many changes).
IMO, the main point of the terrans is that their critical upgrades come online at a significantly quicker rate and less risk-reward compared to the other races. Extreme allins are easily preventable due to salvageable bunkers, smoother wallin due to depot lowering and building lifts allowing terrans a versatility that other races cannot match. While this by itself isn't a bad thing as it is a terran racial strength, the ability to quickly get ALL their upgrades online makes the versatility simply overpowering.
Thus, I propose two points aimed at toning down these advantages.
Concussive Shell, Blue Flames and Siege Mode all possesses separate problems.
Concussive Shell and Siege mode simply costs too little for the amount they do. An increase of 50/50 for both isn't entirely unwarranted IMO.
Blue Flames is able to come online far too early for Hellion's effectiveness at raiding. The damage bonus is also unreal as you're effectively paying a one time investment at doubling their damage! A standard armory upgrade costs 160 in terms of research time and I believe a small bump to 130 ish research time for Blue Flames is fine.
Lastly, being able to swap tech labs and reactors among your buildings with no downtime through the lift/land mechanic requires some tweaking. Being able to so easily swap between building choices and quickly too had always been a Zerg forte and the ability to simply "tech switch" so easily as Terran strikes me a bit odd. Once again, I propose a small subtle nerf in this area. Every time you land upon an addon as terran, a build time meter is required similar to how long it would take for one to actually build such an addon. You still save upon the cost of the add on itself.
Most of these proposed nerfs are simply small timing issues that I feel would bring the terran back to earth. A significant portion of them goes towards forcing a terran to choose a specific build order rather than having a scout read rax, refinery, fact as a "???".
Let me know what you guys think . =)
On August 20 2010 18:18 Lcfl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
My few sugestions to improve zerg a bit :
roach : lower back to 1 supply cost. I think the nerf in the beta was too much. make it 1 supply again might help the problem zerg have with 200 supply army. (+ Blizzard said when they made them cost 2 supply that it was to balance the 200 supply armies between zerg and the other race :/ )
roach (+infestor ?) : give them the possibility to go past clieves when they have burrowmove. It would open new ways to harass with more different units in midgame. Zerg are definitely lacking in terms of strategies and that may help to see some diversity.
Overseer : make the corruption ability totally disable a building : upgrades would stop and towers would not fire. Maybe lower the energy cost to 50 too. atm, the corruption ability has no use. I never saw it used and can't think of a way to use it efficiently. This might add new possibilities to the zerg gameplay (which zerg are definitely lacking imo)
Overseer : increase build time to 30sec. from the moment zerg are t2, they can have moving detectors in 17secs. Even if they are caught off guard with cloack units, they can react too fast imo.
Nydus : lower the build time to 12sec. Nydus are too long to build atm. I'd like to remove the sound it makes too but it might hurt the lower leagues
Queen : make transfusion cost 25 energy and heal for 75. That would make the transfusion ability more useful (it is barely used atm). That would allow to heal more efficiently some units out of combat.
Hive/lair : lower the build time to 60sec for both. It is sooo long for Zerg to tech : 65 pool + 50 queen + 80 lair + 50 infestor + 100 hive + 65 ultralisk = 410secs
It takes 270 secs for protoss to unlock colossus and 235 sec for terran to unlock battlecruiser. Zerg can't fast tech which diminish the number of differents starts they can do (terran are amazing from this pov tbh).
Was just a few thoughts...
I believe none of these changes are what's needed at this point.
As Idra has said multiple times in this thread, early-game issues are what pose the most serious problem for zerg. The threat of early reapers/bunker rush pressure the Zerg out of the ability to expand before pool. As midgame ZvT is significantly more manageable if Zerg can get away with a hatch-first expansion, any further changes should only be considered only after an appropriate fix to the early game is made (via a suitable nerf to reapers and/or bunkers). It's possible that some of these changes might still be needed, but that can only be determined after players of both races have adjusted suitably to the early-game changes.
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am i the only one that thinks marines are too strong. same with zealots. while lings are weak as shit?
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Without making several speedlings the zerg is vulnerable to contain and harass, meaning that he couldn't even afford to drone his FE if he had one.
It feels weird when you think that Zerg seems to be the "inferior units but superior macro" race when the threat of cheese basically negates the traditional zerg FE opening.
I'd be fine with Zerg being stuck with 1base for several minutes if teching was made more viable. But prohibitive gas costs AND snail speed teching makes it very hard to pull off.
Appending all upgrade times, Zerg requires almost twice as much time to access BLs/Ultras than Protoss and Terran need to get their big guns. As if it wasn't enough, BLs and Ultras are much less versatile than thors/bcs/carriers, and Ultras require several upgrades to be viable.
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EPT
