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On August 05 2010 01:16 Louder wrote:
Terran's macro mechanic is also the worst, by far, without question. It's so far beyond even being debatable it's a joke. Just watch the income panel before you bitch about MULEs - notice how MULEs ALMOST catch T up to P or Z when it drops - after being 150-200 mins/min behind for well over a minute.
And you leave out the way add ons complicate macro for T :| Also the fact T needs more production facilities than other races across the board.
Lol really? You're going to go with this argument? C'mon Louder 
1) Use two hotkeys. Don't be lazy.
2) 6 Rax is all it takes to be equal to 2 hatch in the midgame. You get cheap little protoss dragoons that can slow opponents down. It's really not a big issue.
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On August 05 2010 01:16 Louder wrote:
Terran's macro mechanic is also the worst, by far, without question. It's so far beyond even being debatable it's a joke. Just watch the income panel before you bitch about MULEs - notice how MULEs ALMOST catch T up to P or Z when it drops - after being 150-200 mins/min behind for well over a minute.
And you leave out the way add ons complicate macro for T :| Also the fact T needs more production facilities than other races across the board.
I'm glad you pointed this out to people. Terran's macro mechanics are actually very weak. Yes they're more forgiving but all we can do is get a temporary boost to minerals which at best puts us on par with the other races. Meanwhile all our useful units take gas....
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On August 05 2010 01:19 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:13 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:55 Schamus wrote:
Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep? So you wanna drop queens off creep in the back of someone's base, then slowly waggle towards a building and hope nobody catches you despite your Nydus worm screaming like a nazgûl in heat? Early queen rushes are deadly as hell. It's why the speed on the queen off-creep was nerfed so that they're impossible. Judging from the current Korean ladder, Korean Zergs are having not really having any problem. Cool did lose a tournament to a Terran in phase 2, though. Granted, ZvT was still statistically his best MU in the tournament. There haven't been a lot of Asian/Korean tournaments since the end of phase 1--really just the WTA--but the tournaments at the end of phase 1 were Zerg-dominated pretty heavily.
Sources? People keep bringing up the idea that zerg are dominating korea, but from the latest statistics this doesn't seem true?
Can someone break this down with a little more proof? (we're in release, not phase 1)
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On August 05 2010 01:27 Arcticc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:19 koppik wrote:On August 05 2010 01:13 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:55 Schamus wrote:
Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep? So you wanna drop queens off creep in the back of someone's base, then slowly waggle towards a building and hope nobody catches you despite your Nydus worm screaming like a nazgûl in heat? Early queen rushes are deadly as hell. It's why the speed on the queen off-creep was nerfed so that they're impossible. Judging from the current Korean ladder, Korean Zergs are having not really having any problem. Cool did lose a tournament to a Terran in phase 2, though. Granted, ZvT was still statistically his best MU in the tournament. There haven't been a lot of Asian/Korean tournaments since the end of phase 1--really just the WTA--but the tournaments at the end of phase 1 were Zerg-dominated pretty heavily. Sources? People keep bringing up the idea that zerg are dominating korea, but from the latest statistics this doesn't seem true? Can someone break this down with a little more proof? (we're in release, not phase 1)
they arent, havent been since phase 1. doing better than non korean zergs but not by a whole lot.
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On August 05 2010 01:19 koppik wrote:
Early queen rushes are deadly as hell. It's why the speed on the queen off-creep was nerfed so that they're impossible.
You do realize you can do this with nydus today, only about 1 minute later than my suggestion?
Why does nobody do this if it is, quote, "deadly as hell"?
On August 05 2010 01:19 koppik wrote:Judging from the current Korean ladder, Korean Zergs are having not really having any problem. Cool did lose a tournament to a Terran in phase 2, though. Granted, ZvT was still statistically his best MU in the tournament. There haven't been a lot of tournaments since the end of phase 1, but the tournaments at the end of phase 1 were Zerg-dominated pretty heavily.
According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour?
Korea or not, comparing early/midgame options for Terran vs Zerg, you see:
1) More options on the Terran list
2) The Zerg options generally being more expensive, or require more tech dedication.
3) The Zerg options relying more on a carefully planned, timed and scouted approach.
Rapers, Banshees, Hellions, all of these are very effective harassment options that risk little and often pay off. And even if they somehow don't kill anything, they will steal valuable focus time and initiative from the opponent.
A Nydus worm is much like buying fireworks for $200, setting it up, lighting the fuse, running away and watching it go off with a small pop.
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Do mules take up supply? If not then that would be a way to nerf them a bit
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On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then, in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently.
They're no longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war.
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Alright, so make siege tanks overkill and zergs midgame will be alot more managable and allow for more of a turtle breaking and mech punishing will be very viable for the zerg with great army control.. Doubt it would effect tvp when immortals are still in existence. And lower levels wont notice.
Also, reduce natural chokes and stretch certain maps out a bit. For metalopolis, put a really large destrctable structure right past the natural gas that constricts the choke and allows creative and smart play in all matchups. You could do this to Kulas also. I mean Blizz is all about the destructible stuff already.
Also, would making the creep tumors build faster or removing the duplicate tumor cooldown be too much? Im not saying make the creep spread faster, but allow Zergs the oppurtunity to spread it really quickly against opponents who tend to ignore it. Id like opinions on that.
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On August 05 2010 01:51 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently. They're not longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war.
Your argument doesn't take into account that korean zerg players may just be "better".. my argument, looking at amount and quality of options available for T and Z, is completely neutral.
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On August 05 2010 01:56 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:51 koppik wrote:On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently. They're not longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war. Your argument doesn't take into account that korean zerg players may just be "better".. my argument, looking at amount and quality of options available for T and Z, is completely neutral. It's tough to say what "better" means. There are a lot of ex-pro WC3 and BW players that are playing Terran currently. There are a lot of ex-pro WC3 and BW players that are playing Zerg too, of course, but it's not like they were just "taken" by the race and love it. Like half of the top Korean Zergs played protoss when protoss was OP in the beginning. And then switched to Zerg back when Protoss was nerfed hard and Terran was considered the weakest race.
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On August 05 2010 02:05 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:56 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 01:51 koppik wrote:On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently. They're not longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war. Your argument doesn't take into account that korean zerg players may just be "better".. my argument, looking at amount and quality of options available for T and Z, is completely neutral. It's tough to say what "better" means. There are a lot of ex-pro WC3 and BW players that are playing Terran currently. There are a lot of ex-pro WC3 and BW players that are playing Zerg too, of course, but it's not like they were just "taken" by the race and love it. Like half of the top Korean Zergs played protoss when protoss was OP in the beginning. And then switched to Zerg back when Protoss was nerfed hard and Terran was considered the weakest race.
To make myself clearer, I don't think the Korean Zergs have more skill than Korean Terrans / Protosses, I won't even go there.
My point was that if you want to judge the actual races themselves, rather than player success, Terrans list of solid early / mid-game options is long. Zergs list of early / mid-game options against Terran is short and flimsy. Having several options are extremely important to achieve an element of surprise. I doubt anyone can disagree with that.
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*rereads the OP*
This is the wrong approach. The real way to fix this is to A) give Zerg more options, or B) Change the map pool. The latter is the only one likely to happen. Blizzard maps are terrible and always have been. Think about it.
Blistering sands has a small choke, which is nice, but a giant back door. Not only that, the cliff behind the natural is accessible by reapers. Desert Oasis has a wide open natural, far from the ramp, and no really defendable third. Incineration Zone was taken out of the map rotation for a reason. It has an insanely short rush distance, and rocks that lead into your main, among other things. Scrap station seems good, but the destructible rocks offer another way into your opponent's natural, and there's the main destructible path straight to your opponent's main. Steppes of War, as commentators like to point out, has a really short rush distance, and not only that, there's a large ramp as well. Kulas has been discussed in depth, but it's arguably the worst map for zerg right now, due to the double choke, and multiple entry points through destructible rocks, and of course the cliff above your natural. Lost Temple would be an amazing map were it not for the cliff overlooking the zerg's natural that is almost impossible to defend, as IdrA can attest. Metalopolis, even considered a Zerg favored map in some scenarios, also has a wide open natural with plenty of room for hellions. Xel'Naga Caverns has natural far from the main, and the thirds are easily contested. Delta Quadrant has a back expansion that has to be cleared of rocks and can be safe depending on positioning and a forward "natural" that's super exposed with numerous entrances. The latter two's implications are a bit unknown as they haven't been really shown for competitive play, but a quick glance can show how awful they are for any sort of FE. And Zergs like to FE. Unless some zerg figures out how to kill everything on one base, I don't think there's much chance for zerg without new maps.
So yes Terran is OP on these maps, but the way to fix it does not include nerfing Terran. You've gotta change the maps. [/rant]
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On August 05 2010 16:07 MythicalMage wrote:
So yes Terran is OP on these maps, but the way to fix it does not include nerfing Terran. You've gotta change the maps. [/rant]
Seems fairly unlikely, Blizzard has talked a lot about how intrinsic he current set of map designs are to the overall design philosophy of the races. They aren't seperate entities in the bigger scheme; will be very interesting to see what gives over the comming months.
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MULE - I believe Terran was specifically designed by Blizzard and Team Browder to be beginner-compatible. In that regard, easy MULE Macro should stay as it is. However, toggling between base(s) and battle(s) is a good point - Terran gets the long end of the stick on that one.
Supply Depots - That's tricky. I don't know. Perhaps if the supply depot had its own energy?
Salvage - ridiculous that you get 100% mineral return. You don't even get 100% mineral return for canceling a structure.
Thor/Viking - I'm down for the Viking getting a little less range, but the Thor should stay.
Marauder - Concussive shells is outrageous.
Medivac - Medivacs are powerful in particular stages of the game, and during other parts, a player is better off abstaining from using them altogether...this is quite possibly the worst rebuttal in the history of debate, but I think things like Fungal Growth and Psy Storm render a Medivac useless.
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I completely agree with reworking viking and thor range. These are currently mass up = gg air units. Then we have Tanks that clean up the ground. An air unit with such ridiculous range promotes no micro. It's just sick seeing vikings rip through Broodlords from a distance, even the corruptors have very little chance because omg thors rape them when put together. Heck, I play Terran a lot and I just feel that vikings and thors are nearly siege units like the tank, yet the viking has air mobility? Are you kidding me?
Please bring back moving shot and limiting range (and even possibly lower the damage output on air units across the board). This is a lot more fun and potentially more effective with great micro.
You brought up a great point about the medivacs healing at a ridiculous rates, but I think this has something to do with how the static defense in this game just has piss poor dps/range in comparison to all the units in the game now. It feels like they just kept the same static defense we had back in BW, but just buffed everything else in the game. There's now bonus damage to armor and units in general have more hp, which automatically means static defense just gets raped.
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United Kingdom12029 Posts
Medivac - Medivacs are powerful in particular stages of the game, and during other parts, a player is better off abstaining from using them altogether...this is quite possibly the worst rebuttal in the history of debate, but I think things like Fungal Growth and Psy Storm render a Medivac useless.
To be fair, I think having medics now, as in on foot medics would seriously suck for Terran as Banelings would easily kill them, you've also got siege tank splash (that was always a problem), you've got so many ways they can die seriously far too quick to be an infantry unit now, storm would kill them as fast as it kills marines and to be honest, that would make bio useless if all your medics died in one storm, atleast with the medivac it allows for interesting drops and they can actually move out of range of the things that can kill them instantly.
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That was a really nice read! It's good to see someone post ideas about balance in a constructed and mannered way.
I personally don't have a problem with the supply depot mechanic, if anything it might be improved if combined with the extra supply from CC. I'm thinking in TvZ, since early baneling all-in can be really annoying, extra supply could add some HP or armor or some of both. T would still lose a mule early on but he'll have a decent wall in. Not that it's impossible to fend off a baneling bust, but if you're not on a 10 rax opening chance you get half your scv hammered are high. Plus it would make this ability a little more useful.
Which leads me to mule. I find it very odd that nobody at Blizzard realizes how ridiculous they can get in late game. I mean T can just fly a CC around the map, land on any expo, drop like 12 mules and gather 3500+ minerals (if it's not a gold expo!) in 90 seconds! Note that it means 2000minerals/min which is the income rate of almost 3 fully saturated bases. The easiest way I see to fix it is to add a cooldown to the mule ability. The cooldown could last as long as a mule. It will also make terran macro much less forgiving, just like the zerg one in fact, where you can't spawn 12 larvae if your queen got at 75 energy. There are plenty of other stuff that can be much funkier than a dull cooldown but the point is to make 1 mule/OC.
Bunker salvage is fine and cool when used defensively. But for instance, that fast reaper/bunker at natural in TvZ is ridiculous because of that. I'm thinking make salvage an SCV ability (that works only on bunker). Which means an SCV has to stand by and 'disassemble' a bunker. That means that if you kill his scv, he will at least lose 100 minerals. It wouldn't change the main purpose of salvaging bunker, which is to advance your defensive line as you expand along the map, like with spine crawlers if you will. At least I assume that's why Blizzard made this ablility, not that crazy offensive bunker that shoots giant grenades at range 6 o_0
And about the unit balance, I just think tanks need a serious change. It's just not right that you can't charge an unprotected line of tanks without losing half of your army. I mean tanks are a siege unit, they should need a careful placement, some form of protection... I don't think bringing back overkill is a good choice, but maybe making the tank shot not instant. Like many other range units, the bullet would need time to move from the canon to the target. And the target position wouldn't update itself with the target unit movement. It's hard the explain with words, but let's say they make it 0.5s, the tank shot would land where the target was 0.5s ago. Which means a small pack of zerglings could infiltrate 'naked' tank lines...
Well this was way too long o_0 Maybe some of you will still read it ^^
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On August 05 2010 01:51 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then, in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently. They're no longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war.
i really wish people would stop making claims like that when they arent actually involved in the korean scene.
ya zerg is reasonably well represented, but the zergs are people like me, junwi, cool, check whereas the terrans are 'ogsgon' 'simpsonprime' 'ogstop'. and if you watch them play or play against them they arent actually good. their macro falls apart at the drop of a hat, they dont micro beyond reaper kiting, they are unskilled nobodies winning purely on the strength of their race. were there any terran players of equivalent skill to the zerg players they would be going undefeated. as is thestc is the only pro sc1 terran taking it seriously i think, and for some reason or another he sucks. and he still won the big phase2 gom tournament.
its the same situation on the us server, ya some zergs and a protoss can compete, but theyre mostly players who were already known, who are actually good at rts' and in most cases were good at sc1. and then you have random bad players, and lots of them, different ones every week, shooting up the ladder and placing in every tournament with terran.
stupid people will argue that they arent unskilled just because they were unknown (and thats not my argument, theyre unskilled because theyre bad, but you people dont seem to understand that), but if thats the case how come theres almost no one previously unknown having similar success with z/p? there are a few, like huk, and while hes not particularly good hes shown consistent results across multiple patches. unlike the tens of terrans who've popped up since the beginning of phase 2.
dunno how it can be any more obvious that theres something seriously wrong.
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On August 06 2010 18:37 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:51 koppik wrote:On August 05 2010 01:35 partysnatcher wrote:According to IdrA above, Korean Zerg "domination" is a false rumour? They were dominating at the end of phase 1, and there have only been about 2 and a half weeks of play time since then, in which we've had really just one big tournament (in which Zerg -did not- win. But Zergs came in second and third). The current Korean top 10 ladder has had between 3-6 Zergs in the top ten since the start, with 5 currently. They're no longer "dominating", but they're doing at least as well as Terran. Honestly, I think it feels like Protoss is the "weak race" from the recent plays. A protoss hasn't done well in an Asian/Korean tournament since like Tester in the PlayXP. Well, I guess you can also count Tester and Anypro in the Prime vs. oGs Star2gether, but that's a clan war. i really wish people would stop making claims like that when they arent actually involved in the korean scene. ya zerg is reasonably well represented, but the zergs are people like me, junwi, cool, check whereas the terrans are 'ogsgon' 'simpsonprime' 'ogstop'. and if you watch them play or play against them they arent actually good. their macro falls apart at the drop of a hat, they dont micro beyond reaper kiting, they are unskilled nobodies winning purely on the strength of their race. were there any terran players of equivalent skill to the zerg players they would be going undefeated. as is thestc is the only pro sc1 terran taking it seriously i think, and for some reason or another he sucks. and he still won the big phase2 gom tournament. its the same situation on the us server, ya some zergs and a protoss can compete, but theyre mostly players who were already known, who are actually good at rts' and in most cases were good at sc1. and then you have random bad players, and lots of them, different ones every week, shooting up the ladder and placing in every tournament with terran. stupid people will argue that they arent unskilled just because they were unknown (and thats not my argument, theyre unskilled because theyre bad, but you people dont seem to understand that), but if thats the case how come theres almost no one previously unknown having similar success with z/p? there are a few, like huk, and while hes not particularly good hes shown consistent results across multiple patches. unlike the tens of terrans who've popped up since the beginning of phase 2. dunno how it can be any more obvious that theres something seriously wrong.
Pretty much nailed it on the head IMO.
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On August 05 2010 01:27 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 01:16 Louder wrote:
Terran's macro mechanic is also the worst, by far, without question. It's so far beyond even being debatable it's a joke. Just watch the income panel before you bitch about MULEs - notice how MULEs ALMOST catch T up to P or Z when it drops - after being 150-200 mins/min behind for well over a minute.
And you leave out the way add ons complicate macro for T :| Also the fact T needs more production facilities than other races across the board. I'm glad you pointed this out to people. Terran's macro mechanics are actually very weak. Yes they're more forgiving but all we can do is get a temporary boost to minerals which at best puts us on par with the other races. Meanwhile all our useful units take gas....
Well to be fair terran units are a lot more cost efficient than protoss and (especially) zerg units. the goal for toss/zerg is to get economically ahead just to stay even with the terran. if the terran can "almost catch upto P or Z," that's quite the success for terran.
Although I do agree that terran's macro mechanics are the most difficult. i played random through out the beta and found zerg's macro to be (surprisingly) the easiest, then protoss (due to the fact that i always have to come back to the base to macro gateway units instead of focusing on the battle and macroing), and terran's macro was just... a little difficult, and you always had to get the right number of unit producing structures and the right addons, which is like dealing with 6 different unit producing structures.
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EPT
