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On August 05 2010 00:05 Aelionz wrote:
I dont think they should change anything nearly, i am rank 25 diamond as Zerg, and i dont find any problems with Terran...
every single time i hear somebody cite their division rank to somehow lend credibility to their argument/boast of skill i want to choke a blizzard employee for not creating a global ladder
people still don't understand how your particular division ranking could mean anything
edit - ...i also got "#1" as terran on a guest account
and im fucking AWFUL as terran but the race is so fuckin easy that i still manage a higher win% with 1% the experience i have with zerg
![[image loading]](http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4352/screenshot2010080408100.jpg)
note- this is my first account EVER playing terran
i didnt do any traditional build order until after the first 8 losses then I actually learned what the build orders were
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On August 05 2010 00:07 Corax wrote:
Just because you type out a page or so of ideas and add pictures doesn't mean these changes aren't drastic and extremely experimental, every single change you suggest is extremely drastic, terran might need to be changed somewhat, but they dont need to be changed this drasticly
The OPness of Terran is drastic. The fact that Terran demolish Zerg in this patch with very little skill is drastic and well drastic times call for drastic actions.
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On August 05 2010 00:06 Ainsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:02 eNbee wrote:On August 04 2010 23:46 partysnatcher wrote:
- I would like to see zerg drops getting cheaper and maybe available in Tier 1.
- I would like a nydus worm with higher HP, or nydus available in Tier 1.
I'm not getting into the discussion as a whole, but I thought I'd highlight this. What you are suggesting is we break the game and swing the pendulum of imbalance waaaaaaaaaaay towards Z, think about what you put down there for 1 second... And zerg drops are pretty damn cheap, considering you pay 100/100 (or is it 150/150) once and every single supply depot you have is a dropship.... It's 100/100 for speed, 200/200 for drop, 100/0 for each overlord. Then you run the risk of losing a bunch of supply. So no, Zerg drop isn't that viable unless that's what you are going for. It's ESSENTIAL against Terran though.
Yep  But you forgot Lair, and also how much time each research takes.. it's ridicoulus. You can't base any strats around drops the way you should be able to.
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On August 05 2010 00:09 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:05 Aelionz wrote:
I dont think they should change anything nearly, i am rank 25 diamond as Zerg, and i dont find any problems with Terran... every single time i hear somebody cite their division rank to somehow lend credibility to their argument/boast of skill i want to choke a blizzard employee for not creating a global ladder people still don't understand how your particular division ranking could mean anything
Lolled at this too.
25 Diamond as Zerg. Thats like what? top 4000? GTFO.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
Rather than complaining about nerfing Terran, why don't we discuss how to buff Zerg against Terran?
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On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes
I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?
My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early.
Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons.
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Yeah, why does Terran need nerf? Give me Lurkers, Infestors that can cast all spells while burrowed and cheaper more accessible drops and I think you got yourself a solution.
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Limit repairing SCVs to like 3 at a time, so you can actually kill a planetary fortress would be a nice beginning in my opinion.
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On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons.
because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous
you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech?
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On August 05 2010 00:26 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons. because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech?
I don't think I'll reply to your posts, this is just dumb.. as if 150/100 of Lair makes that much of a difference to how powerful nydus is. You do know the nydus costs cash too?
It's very scoutable, it's a lot of money that early, it screams like a raped pig and it's very killable. I don't see the problem and I doubt you can show it to me either.
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On August 05 2010 00:35 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:26 billyX333 wrote:On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons. because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech? I don't think I'll reply to your posts, this is just dumb.. as if 150/100 of Lair makes that much of a difference to how powerful nydus is. You do know the nydus costs cash too? It's very scoutable, it's a lot of money that early, it screams like a raped pig and it's very killable. I don't see the problem and I doubt you can show it to me either.
its not about price
...its about time
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On August 05 2010 00:35 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:26 billyX333 wrote:On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons. because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech? I don't think I'll reply to your posts, this is just dumb.. as if 150/100 of Lair makes that much of a difference to how powerful nydus is. You do know the nydus costs cash too? It's very scoutable, it's a lot of money that early, it screams like a raped pig and it's very killable. I don't see the problem and I doubt you can show it to me either.
You count money as if its the only thing that matters. The amount of time required to MAKE a lair and how its also delayed by the queen being made is what makes the Nydus a good thing to leave at Lair tech. Pool -> Nydus is ridiculous. Absolutely way too early.
Cash ain't everything in this game. The same reason why terran will build 2 rax instead of 1 rax AND THEN get a reactor.
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66% win ratio as zerg currently. On another account I have, chose protoss, whopping 90% 450 points diamond. Zerg is so hard its ridiculous. As toss, no cheese, no 10 10 gate vs zerg, no 4gate. Just standard play (With exception with a few games vs P where I did the whole tester warpgate zealot cheese a few games). Trying to play standard as zerg is like smashing your face against a brick wall every game. All terrans and toss all in every game.
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On August 05 2010 00:44 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:35 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:26 billyX333 wrote:On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons. because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech? I don't think I'll reply to your posts, this is just dumb.. as if 150/100 of Lair makes that much of a difference to how powerful nydus is. You do know the nydus costs cash too? It's very scoutable, it's a lot of money that early, it screams like a raped pig and it's very killable. I don't see the problem and I doubt you can show it to me either. its not about price ...its about time
Hell, its about time.
That was my point.. a little over a minute faster? Is that really so imba? Give me a break.. keep in mind that economy is weak early game.
My alternative was to give the Nydus Worm more HP, I don't see how one of those two = "ridicoulus". Nydus now feels weak and it is a possible answer to a lot of things. It was used in early beta but hardly anymore. It requires an overlord, a separate building, loading units into the building, not getting scouted and so on.
I saw Check make Nydus work on a recent replay, but his approach still relied on getting the first Nydus off unharmed. It's just completely random whether you can do that or not.
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On August 05 2010 00:49 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:44 billyX333 wrote:On August 05 2010 00:35 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:26 billyX333 wrote:On August 05 2010 00:21 partysnatcher wrote:On August 05 2010 00:06 billyX333 wrote:
I agree with you (as a z player) that his suggestions are ludicrous and basically hurt the credibility of the zerg argument against terran for balance changes I don't want to get into a fight here, but feel free to back up exactly why these suggestions "hurt the credibility" of zergs?My suggestions were pretty subtle, and do nothing to economy or military balances, but allows you to invest money into viable options to hurt the Terrans base early. Keep in mind Terran is a race which can lift off buildings, repair buildings, and hide hurt units in buildings. They don't really have any "dealbreakers" like Protoss' pylons. because your suggestions are blatantly ridiculous you want me to be able to go pool > nydus worm before lair tech? I don't think I'll reply to your posts, this is just dumb.. as if 150/100 of Lair makes that much of a difference to how powerful nydus is. You do know the nydus costs cash too? It's very scoutable, it's a lot of money that early, it screams like a raped pig and it's very killable. I don't see the problem and I doubt you can show it to me either. its not about price ...its about time Hell, its about time. That was my point.. a little over a minute faster? Is that really so imba? Give me a break.. keep in mind that economy is weak early game. My alternative was to give the Nydus Worm more HP, I don't see how one of those two = "ridicoulus". Nydus now feels weak and it is a possible answer to a lot of things. It was used in early beta but hardly anymore. It requires an overlord, a separate building, loading units into the building, not getting scouted and so on. I saw Check make Nydus work on a recent replay, but his approach still relied on getting the first Nydus off unharmed. It's just completely random whether you can do that or not.
its not random at all, its just hoping your opponent is bad
when tester does that same build he leaves a zealot patrolling the edge of his base, 1 zealot kills a nydus as the first units start to pop out.
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Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep?
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On August 05 2010 00:55 Schamus wrote:
Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep?
So you'd actually have to make defenses instead of being able to rely on a few marines and hellions unless you see banelings coming? I don't see what's wrong with that. Plus it's mid game at that point. The zerg player has gottenqueen->lair->queen which takes time (280s off one base without interuption) and would leave the zerg's base without queens making it effectively an all in strategy. By comparison it only takes 165s from barracks to get siege mode by which point you are mid game
ZvT is all a matter of time. Zerg have plenty of things they can do mid game to hurt Terran and get into a favorable late game which they are capable of winning.
The problem is all of those things come out too slow to be effective. Mutas come out after an armory is up for any factory based build or an engy is up for bio builds. Drops come after you can safely get a sensor tower or thor drop a cliff. Nydus come out after you have enough time to get things on the border of your base and they erupt slowly enough to make them easy to kill. Early roach pressure starts before you decide to throw down a tech lab or a 2nd barracks, but comes out after you've had plenty of time to make marauders on reaction or as part of a bio build.
As a result very few Zerg builds being 'safe' and almost every Terran build is 'safe' vs zerg.
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On August 05 2010 00:55 Schamus wrote:
Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep?
So you wanna drop queens off creep in the back of someone's base, then slowly waggle towards a building and hope nobody catches you despite your Nydus worm screaming like a nazgûl in heat?
I see you've played Zerg a lot..
Nydus is really expensive, slow and clunky, making it happen a little over a minute faster would do little or nothing. In fact, I think this option needs even more help.
IdrA, can you tell me, would a stronger nydus affect the Korean scene a lot?
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Terran's macro mechanic is also the worst, by far, without question. It's so far beyond even being debatable it's a joke. Just watch the income panel before you bitch about MULEs - notice how MULEs ALMOST catch T up to P or Z when it drops - after being 150-200 mins/min behind for well over a minute.
And you leave out the way add ons complicate macro for T :| Also the fact T needs more production facilities than other races across the board.
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On August 05 2010 01:13 partysnatcher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 00:55 Schamus wrote:
Quicker nydus means you could effectively pop 2 queens and a bunch of lings in my base before mid-game. Queens are NASTY units in the early game... Thats why they're so slow off creep? So you wanna drop queens off creep in the back of someone's base, then slowly waggle towards a building and hope nobody catches you despite your Nydus worm screaming like a nazgûl in heat? Early queen rushes are deadly as hell. It's why the speed on the queen off-creep was nerfed so that they're impossible.
Judging from the current Korean ladder, Korean Zergs are having not really having any problem. Cool did lose a tournament to a Terran in phase 2, though. Granted, ZvT was still statistically his best MU in the tournament. There haven't been a lot of Asian/Korean tournaments since the end of phase 1--really just the WTA--but the tournaments at the end of phase 1 were Zerg-dominated pretty heavily.
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EPT
