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On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
Read Morrow's post. Idra, Artosis, Morrow, and pretty much every top player on the PLANET, Zerg or Terran, disagree with you. Use your fucking brain before you post.
So four players is pretty much every top player on the planet? The progaming community is smaller than I thought. Nothing against the opinions of said players, just saying.
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On August 03 2010 22:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
I expected the OP to be stupid and unrealistic. However, these changes are actually really sensible. TvZ is fucking RIDICULOUS at the moment, and is clearly the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Something has to be done about this balance-wise, but whatever it is, it has to be something that won't throw off the TvP matchup and give P a large advantage over T. Luckily, T is way too strong vs both other races, so I think a general T nerf is in order. There's absolutely nothing to show that TvP is imbalanced in any way.
Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P.
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On August 03 2010 22:13 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
Read Morrow's post. Idra, Artosis, Morrow, and pretty much every top player on the PLANET, Zerg or Terran, disagree with you. Use your fucking brain before you post. So four players is pretty much every top player on the planet? The progaming community is smaller than I thought. Nothing against the opinions of said players, just saying.
You forgot to read one key word. Re-read.
Either way, it's a matter of general consensus among top players that Terran has an insane advantage against Zerg at a high level of play. Feel free to disagree, but know that doing so places you in the company of the uninformed.
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On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
I expected the OP to be stupid and unrealistic. However, these changes are actually really sensible. TvZ is fucking RIDICULOUS at the moment, and is clearly the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Something has to be done about this balance-wise, but whatever it is, it has to be something that won't throw off the TvP matchup and give P a large advantage over T. Luckily, T is way too strong vs both other races, so I think a general T nerf is in order. There's absolutely nothing to show that TvP is imbalanced in any way. Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P.
Ish. Thing is, playing Bio is suicide, so they're forced into it quite a bit.
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On August 03 2010 22:14 LF9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:13 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
Read Morrow's post. Idra, Artosis, Morrow, and pretty much every top player on the PLANET, Zerg or Terran, disagree with you. Use your fucking brain before you post. So four players is pretty much every top player on the planet? The progaming community is smaller than I thought. Nothing against the opinions of said players, just saying. You forgot to read one key word. Re-read.
XDDD. That's what I get for reading too fast. But, there's no evidence to say that "pretty much every top player on the PLANET, Zerg or Terran" agrees with that. Hell I think I heard an interview to the contrary the other day.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:
Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P.
Which is exactly what's being discussed.
To that end, nerfing mainstay bio units us a less-than-ideal solution, because bio is a much more suitable unit composition for TvP than TvZ. Any nerf to bio that would have an effect on TvZ would have a magnified effect on TvP.
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On August 03 2010 22:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:
Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P. Which is exactly what's being discussed. To that end, nerfing mainstay bio units us a less-than-ideal solution, because bio is a much more suitabley unit composition for TvP than TvZ. Any nerf to bio that would have an effect on TvZ would have a magnified effect on TvP.
Bio isn't a part of mech. If this conversation is about Bio mech, then please let me know. =]
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I really respect you as a player LaLush but I don't exactly agree with most of these issues. Especially the medi-vac argument. Vacs are expensive and fragile. They need to heal at a quick rate in order to compensate for that.
I agree with the salvage change. I always thought it was silly to return 100%. It should be more like 50%-75%. Though, honestly, would 50 minerals per bunker move really make that much of a difference?
There have been times I felt completely helpless playing TvZ. These zergs used movement and stealth to completely shut me down. If I wasn't getting dropped I was getting wormed and if I wasn't getting wormed I was getting flanked and ran-by. It seems most zerg choose the path of "Walk straight into the Terran army" and expect their 200/200 to beat Terran 200/200. Zergs tend to give up map control for nothing despite the main hindrance of terran mech play is the fact that we give up map control for the build. I can't count the number of times I just unsieged my 4-5 tanks, hellions, marines and walked up to a 'contested' Xel'naga tower not seeing a single zerg. I then park outside his base, siege up all my units and proceed to shell his entire army. He'll then leave claiming Terran imba.
I'm a former Zerg player so I feel your pain but after playing Terran for so long I understand the disadvantages of mech to the point where I feel it is beatable. Granted GOING mech is easier than BEATING mech.
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I have nothing against the players - if the race I played had a ridiculously powerful strat in a given matchup, I would certainly make full use of it. The point is, the matchup needs to be fixed. I'm not a balance tester, so my job isn't to suggest changes, but what I can do is point out what actually IS wrong with the matchups I play. Honestly, anyone with any questions about why ZvT has problems should just go back a page and re-read Morrow's post. He pretty much hit the nail on the head, leaving precious little out.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:17 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:16 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:
Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P. Which is exactly what's being discussed. To that end, nerfing mainstay bio units us a less-than-ideal solution, because bio is a much more suitabley unit composition for TvP than TvZ. Any nerf to bio that would have an effect on TvZ would have a magnified effect on TvP. Bio isn't a part of mech. If this conversation is about Bio mech, then please let me know. =]
I am aware. LF9's original post was in relation to the OP--and at least two of the nerfs in the OP (Marauder and Medivac) have very little to do with the problematic TvZ unit compositions. Simply put, they're not going to have a drastic effect on TvZ, and only really serve to nerf Terran where they probably don't need to be nerfed.
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Marauder is fine on second thought, so I recant that. A Thor + Viking nerf (range or damage vs air, either is fine) and some change to Siege Tanks to make them less of a counter-all against Zerg ground units, would work wonders for the matchup.
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On August 03 2010 22:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:17 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 22:16 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:
Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P. Which is exactly what's being discussed. To that end, nerfing mainstay bio units us a less-than-ideal solution, because bio is a much more suitabley unit composition for TvP than TvZ. Any nerf to bio that would have an effect on TvZ would have a magnified effect on TvP. Bio isn't a part of mech. If this conversation is about Bio mech, then please let me know. =] I am aware. LF9's original post was in relation to the OP--and at least two of the nerfs in the OP (Marauder and Medivac) have very little to do with the problematic TvZ unit compositions. Simply put, they're not going to have a drastic effect on TvZ, and only really serve to nerf Terran where they probably don't need to be nerfed.
Ah, yeah sure.
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There are problems at work other than simple unit compositions in this matchup, though - I would argue that the very basis of the matchup is broken. Terran has an insane amount of viable early game build orders, and Zerg must open (rather blindly for the most part beyond the initial overlord scout) with a build that can counter any number of ridiculously powerful build orders, putting the momentum of the game entirely in Terran's hands from beginning to end.
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On August 03 2010 22:21 LF9 wrote:
Marauder is fine on second thought, so I recant that. A Thor + Viking nerf (range or damage vs air, either is fine) and some change to Siege Tanks to make them less of a counter-all against Zerg ground units, would work wonders for the matchup.
I think we really need more range upgrades. There's only like two in the game, Extended Thermal Lance, and Grooved Spines, unless I'm forgetting one.
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On August 03 2010 22:22 LF9 wrote:
There are problems at work other than simple unit compositions in this matchup, though - I would argue that the very basis of the matchup is broken. Terran has an insane amount of viable early game build orders, and Zerg must open (rather blindly for the most part beyond the initial overlord scout) with a build that can counter any number of ridiculously powerful build orders, putting the momentum of the game entirely in Terran's hands from beginning to end.
Pretty much, anything Bio is completely decimated by zerg. Air doesn't fare well vs Zerg. That leaves mech, and bio mech. So yes there are numerous openings, but for midgames, there's not that many.
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Perhaps nerfing Thor's base range against air by a SUFFICIENT amount, and putting a rather expensive, time-consuming upgrade at the armory that serves to up Thor's anti-air range to it's current value would help.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:26 LF9 wrote:
Perhaps nerfing Thor's base range against air by a SUFFICIENT amount, and putting a rather expensive, time-consuming upgrade at the armory that serves to up Thor's anti-air range to it's current value would help.
I don't see why range on the thor is an issue. Mutalisks fly so fast and Thors move so slow that you can never out range the mutalisks other than for the first shot.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:26 LF9 wrote:
Perhaps nerfing Thor's base range against air by a SUFFICIENT amount, and putting a rather expensive, time-consuming upgrade at the armory that serves to up Thor's anti-air range to it's current value would help.
I believe the issue there is not one of balance, but the fact that TvT finally found a unit composition that can compete with the Tank/Viking compositions that were basically ubiquitous in TvT throughout beta. Without the ability to force air units out of Tank spotting range on the Thor, Marauder/Thor compositions suffer a lot, and we go back to the same old Tank/Viking that gets very little variation.
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Problem is simply terran have too many options, everything they do requires a specific counter by zerg which would cripple them if the result turns out the other way. Zerg are unable to scout the vast array of options by the Terran, and even if the initial opening by terran gets perfectly countered by zerg the terran isn't even in too bad a position. Back in BW you open some sort of cheesy 2 port wraith build, you can't switch back to SK terran without some serious consequences. If you make the options terran has unscoutable, then atleast make the consequence of the build failing scalable. As previously stated, removing the instant kill ability of some of the terran early game strategies will effectively solve alot of these problems without affecting TvP since you rarely see early game wins in that MU.
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On August 03 2010 22:29 RifleCow wrote:
Problem is simply terran have too many options, everything they do requires a specific counter by zerg which would cripple them if the result turns out the other way. Zerg are unable to scout the vast array of options by the Terran, and even if the initial opening by terran gets perfectly countered by zerg the terran isn't even in too bad a position. Back in BW you open some sort of cheesy 2 port wraith build, you can't switch back to SK terran without some serious consequences. If you make the options terran has unscoutable, then atleast make the consequence of the build failing scalable. As previously stated, removing the instant kill ability of some of the terran early game strategies will effectively solve alot of these problems without affecting TvP since you rarely see early game wins in that MU.
There's a very obvious reason for that: Terran has more units. Period. The way I see it, Zerg will almost certainly get more units in their expansion. I'm saying around two to three, maybe more, perhaps a mechanics change or two. I'm not saying that this is good, but I'm saying this is the way it is.
*prepares to get flamed*
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EPT
