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Well a better topic will have been proposed zerg changes.
Zerg gets cheeses too easy , maybe in diamond league most players will go for macro oriented games but when they dont , zerg can be punished rly fast.
Most here remmeber the early beta cheeses vs idra nad his quit rages , i sued to laugh back then but now as a zrg player i tend to understand .
- latest masq vs idra again with 1 base pushes vs idra macro oriented game and wins so easy .
Its too vurnable to 1 base pushes or early air harass.
there is no way u can scout in time to see what ur opponet is doing and ur always one step behind.
If terran or toss wants to cheese he can.
You try an early bust and he sends early banshees - gg
You plan some early bust and tehcing to mutas and he does a strong mm push - gg
you expand fast since hes wallin and he gets a helion mm push gg again.
there is no way for u to know whats happening in the first few minutes , in pro lvl they just dont cheese that much but mostly they do and if u opt for macro games is just isnt hapening easy for zerg.
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On August 03 2010 20:19 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 19:19 Everlong wrote:On August 03 2010 19:14 IdrA wrote:On August 03 2010 18:57 Floophead_III wrote:
Not a single one of your supposed nerfs is well thought out, and proof that you don't understand terran. Our other matches are extremely dependent on many of the things you want to change, and those things don't even seriously impact TvZ.
The problems with TvZ are:
Zerg has no positional unit/caster besides the baneling, which doesn't really replace the lurker at all. Zerg has no way to gain positional control without having "stuff" there.
Zerg cannot deal with ledge tanks/thors, and even reapers on ledges can be miserable. Maps need to be rebalanced around this.
Zerg needs multiple attack paths, because they lose in head on fights so easily. Most maps only have 1 or 2 major attack paths. Maps like LT, Kulas, and even Metalopolis are fairly constricted. Remember Destination? That map was considered constricted with 4 attack paths and backdoor shenanigans.
Basically, the biggest problem with TvZ right now = maps. not really, zvt vs bio you can fight straight up and vs mech they arent going to be attacking anyway. the problem zvt is the early game, the number of options terran has and the difficulty zerg has in dealing with them, and the ineffectiveness of early/mid game air vs pure mech. its too easy to nullify mutas, lets terran focus on tanks and you arent supposed to be able to beat tanks on the ground. the maps are a much bigger problem zvp where you have to deal with the stalker collosus ball right before hive comes out. I know that you probably dont want to give us something like that, but could you post some ideas you have (cos Im sure you have), that would lead into SC2 being overall more balanced, especially TvZ matchup? i think the early game changes from the phase 2 patch should be brought back, zealot reaper barracks bunker build times up 5 seconds. they should also do one or both of 1.5 supply reaper and tanks w/o smart fire, depending on how good tanks are in tvp. with the current reaper bunker timings its literally impossible to expand before speedling or roach if they go reaper, fix that and it should be possible to deal with early terran bullshit. a massable roach or a less powerful tank would help with mech. but right now theyre in a really bad situation with tvz because if they fix the early game theyre gonna have to make big changes to banelings, unless theyre happy with tvz turning into pure boring mech games. because the only reason bio builds are still seeing use is that terran usually enters midgame with an advantage, and the strength of tanks kind of makes up for it, ling/baneling is prohibitively strong vs bio.
Well, let me say, that nerfing tanks even more than - 10dmg from last patch (removing smart AI) will result into withdraw of mech play from TvP all the way, which would make those games as much boring as is TvZ mech. Not to mention, that P would almost always go for Zealot/Templar or fast Colosi, which is fairly strong against Bio as we see these days.
On the other note, I have to agree, that early game TvZ issues, you are right there. Since Ultralisks now works pretty well vs mech, the problem is getting them fast enough, which is caused by early game harassment by Terran..
Both Zerg and Protoss have brutal ways, how to deal with Bio. Once Protoss will learn, how to survive early Bio pushes, that would spelled gg for Terran.
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Nerf Tanks==>P v T goes in to bio exclusive==>storm gets nerfed==>P v Z becomes imba/ P goes in to Colossus exclusive==>nerf Corruptor==>air P and air T becomes to strang vs Zerg... see what the problem is?
I think Blizz stated that a 200/200 Zerg army should not win vs 200/200 Terran/Protoss army because it is balaced by the ability to spawn larva to rebuild a new army much faster by the Zerg witch is possible by the ability to expand much faster. Terran has the hardest time rebuilding the army thus the need for long range. There is also no running/retreat for a mech army.
The game is young and the top players from now will be nothing compared to the top players from 1,2 years ahead. Since there is no one that really knows the game only the stats are some sort of indication for balance and it looks like Zerg is doing more then fine.
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On August 03 2010 20:43 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The game is young and the top players from now will be nothing compared to the top players from 1,2 years ahead. Since there is no one that really knows the game only the stats are some sort of indication for balance and it looks like Zerg is doing more then fine.
This is NOT a valid argument. You can't say 'no one really knows the game' and then follow up with 'therefore, it's more than fine'. I see this a lot and it's logically wrong. If you really believe that 'no one really knows the game', then the most you can say is, 'we don't know about balance'.
Ignorance does not mean 'fine'.
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hence "depending on how good tanks are tvp"
also, tanks were overpowered vs zerg. they removed 10 damage, theyre still really strong. you can nerf something without making it unusable.
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These suggested changes are quiete poor from the triangle perspective of all the races, they can't go into action unless both other races will recieve significant nerfs aswell.
I play random since the beta phase 2, before that terran was my main. I can understand some of the frustration, but so does terran players facing protoss and zerg with their favourable game mechanics.
Pointless.
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Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
On August 03 2010 21:01 araged wrote:
These suggested changes are quiete poor from the triangle perspective of all the races, they can't go into action unless both other races will recieve significant nerfs aswell.
That's the thing, why not think of finding ways to improve zerg? TvP is actually pretty balanced now, it's just if you nerf certain things in TvZ, PvT might become imbalanced. The trouble is, you can't make one nerf without nerfing a ton of other stuff, but you can buff things while keeping things balanced.
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On August 03 2010 20:54 theSAiNT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 20:43 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The game is young and the top players from now will be nothing compared to the top players from 1,2 years ahead. Since there is no one that really knows the game only the stats are some sort of indication for balance and it looks like Zerg is doing more then fine.
This is NOT a valid argument. You can't say 'no one really knows the game' and then follow up with 'therefore, it's more than fine'. I see this a lot and it's logically wrong. If you really believe that 'no one really knows the game', then the most you can say is, 'we don't know about balance'. Ignorance does not mean 'fine'.
1)No one knows the game to it's full potential (strategy wise).
2)Zerg are doing fine in stats/turnaments/etc in the current state.
Got it?
And yes, there are verry few players like TLO that explore different ways of doing things, most top players that i've seen are strict in the way they play thus the potential of the game is still verry much in the air (especially with Zerg). I'm sure in time we will be amazed by what top players will come up with.
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On August 03 2010 21:04 Ouga wrote:
Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness.
Sorry, but saying tank shouldn"t be in the game as it is is kinda silly. What is your suggestion? How should be tank implemented in this game? Make it tier 3 like BCs and remove siege mode?
The problem is, that each little nerf to tank has way more impact on TvP than TvZ. So obviously its not the right direction to nerf tank to the point, where it becomes "balanced" in eyes of Zergs, because by this time, it will by funny to use tanks against Protoss..
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So all seems good, except the burrowed supply depot change. I'm not going to waste a MULE, or a Scan for that, when I can build another building I'm not using, hell even a bunker, and use that instead. For bunkers, I think salvage works the same way that Spine crawlers work, you can "move" them by rebuilding them. I think the fact that they take so long to build balances that. As for the macro mechanics, I think were MULEs to be that much effort, so to speak, Scans would have to reveal their entire main or something. Queens have a 150 HP heal, Chrono Boost can speed up anything, and Terran can sometimes see things with scans. And even then, you don't see any hidden tech, and often not even normal tech.
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On August 03 2010 21:04 Qikz wrote:
TvP is actually pretty balanced now[...].
On what kind of evidence do you base this affirmation on?
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On August 03 2010 21:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 20:54 theSAiNT wrote:On August 03 2010 20:43 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The game is young and the top players from now will be nothing compared to the top players from 1,2 years ahead. Since there is no one that really knows the game only the stats are some sort of indication for balance and it looks like Zerg is doing more then fine.
This is NOT a valid argument. You can't say 'no one really knows the game' and then follow up with 'therefore, it's more than fine'. I see this a lot and it's logically wrong. If you really believe that 'no one really knows the game', then the most you can say is, 'we don't know about balance'. Ignorance does not mean 'fine'. 1)No one knows the game to it's full potential (strategy wise). 2)Zerg are doing fine in stats/turnaments/etc in the current state. Got it? And yes, there are verry few players like TLO that explore different ways of doing things, most top players that i've seen are strict in the way they play thus the potential of the game is still verry much in the air (especially with Zerg). I'm sure in time we will be amazed by what top players will come up with.
by what standards is zerg doing fine?
terrans have made up something like 70-80% of the top 4's in all tournaments with prizes since the release of the game.
zerg is massively underrepresented on all ladders, also had the lowest win rates almost across the board during beta phase 2.
there are fundamental problems with zerg, players are not going to figure out how to jump a zergling over a supply depot or make overlords invincible to marines.
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On August 03 2010 21:04 Ouga wrote:
Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness. If you took out tanks, hell perhaps if you even nerfed them, Terran would become completely inviable. Bio is completely useless vs Muta Baneling, and mech or bio mech is all we really have versus Zerg. Pure mech takes a lot of skill, Bio mech some.
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On August 03 2010 20:19 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 19:19 Everlong wrote:On August 03 2010 19:14 IdrA wrote:On August 03 2010 18:57 Floophead_III wrote:
Not a single one of your supposed nerfs is well thought out, and proof that you don't understand terran. Our other matches are extremely dependent on many of the things you want to change, and those things don't even seriously impact TvZ.
The problems with TvZ are:
Zerg has no positional unit/caster besides the baneling, which doesn't really replace the lurker at all. Zerg has no way to gain positional control without having "stuff" there.
Zerg cannot deal with ledge tanks/thors, and even reapers on ledges can be miserable. Maps need to be rebalanced around this.
Zerg needs multiple attack paths, because they lose in head on fights so easily. Most maps only have 1 or 2 major attack paths. Maps like LT, Kulas, and even Metalopolis are fairly constricted. Remember Destination? That map was considered constricted with 4 attack paths and backdoor shenanigans.
Basically, the biggest problem with TvZ right now = maps. not really, zvt vs bio you can fight straight up and vs mech they arent going to be attacking anyway. the problem zvt is the early game, the number of options terran has and the difficulty zerg has in dealing with them, and the ineffectiveness of early/mid game air vs pure mech. its too easy to nullify mutas, lets terran focus on tanks and you arent supposed to be able to beat tanks on the ground. the maps are a much bigger problem zvp where you have to deal with the stalker collosus ball right before hive comes out. I know that you probably dont want to give us something like that, but could you post some ideas you have (cos Im sure you have), that would lead into SC2 being overall more balanced, especially TvZ matchup? i think the early game changes from the phase 2 patch should be brought back, zealot reaper barracks bunker build times up 5 seconds. they should also do one or both of 1.5 supply reaper and tanks w/o smart fire, depending on how good tanks are in tvp. with the current reaper bunker timings its literally impossible to expand before speedling or roach if they go reaper, fix that and it should be possible to deal with early terran bullshit. a massable roach or a less powerful tank would help with mech. but right now theyre in a really bad situation with tvz because if they fix the early game theyre gonna have to make big changes to banelings, unless theyre happy with tvz turning into pure boring mech games. because the only reason bio builds are still seeing use is that terran usually enters midgame with an advantage, and the strength of tanks kind of makes up for it, ling/baneling is prohibitively strong vs bio.
I think IdrA is probably right on what is going to happen on this one. The early game patch changes for phase 2 were obviously something Blizzard was thinking about already. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those were implemented.
Like IdrA said also if the Terran early game harass is toned down a bunch then it would solve most of the midgame problems.
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It bears noting about Zerg that in the campaign, you play as Terran, and to a lesser extent Protoss, and fight against the Zerg. That might be effecting the numbers.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Well, let me say, that nerfing tanks even more than - 10dmg from last patch (removing smart AI) will result into withdraw of mech play from TvP all the way, which would make those games as much boring as is TvZ mech. Not to mention, that P would almost always go for Zealot/Templar or fast Colosi, which is fairly strong against Bio as we see these days.
I think you're drastically overstating how much an AI nerf to tanks would affect TvP. For one, the fact that tanks are competing with so many more things for gas in TvP than TvZ (ghosts, vikings, ravens, which are all far less common in TvZ, and are still staple components of mech-based TvP) means that you aren't going to mass them as heavily as in TvZ. Furthermore, the general higher health of Protoss units means that even if overkill is possible, unless you've got a pretty high tank count, it's still not going to happen an appreciable amount of the time.
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On August 03 2010 21:19 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 21:04 Ouga wrote:
Tanks not getting nerfs shouldn't be related to them "already been nerfed". It's ridiculous unit which shouldn't be in the game as it is. Then again I never thought it was fine in SC1 either, but the smart AI makes it even more ridiculous now. They would still be very viable even with some nerfbat hits. Really, when I rolled terran from random I'd still be massing tanks if they received another -10dmg siegemode. I don't see why anyone defends tanks not being changed, as it is you can be massing them in every matchup of every gamemode. It should really effect their usefulness if you had too many, but now your army just got 100% better if tanks went from 10 to 20. More even, since now it absolutely cannot be beaten by other than air. I can understand BCs being the army that cannot be beaten since it takes ages to get to them, but tanks either don't have clear counter or it's impossible to reach by the time terran decides to push.
While I agree many changes were thought out well, I'd be more severe in thinking few units just need nerf. The +5sec reaper/rax build was excellent change in ph2, don't see why it was taken back. Something just have to happen to one or more of these: thor, tank, reaper, maybe pfort & bunker. Tanks aside, the second most annoying thing is all-aroundness of thors. There's just no unit which would scare thor off. Ofc can't be really massed, but it's fcked that one thor in base will absolutely defend your base from mutas, and it still kicks ass against everything once you move out. It really should have some weakness. If you took out tanks, hell perhaps if you even nerfed them, Terran would become completely inviable. Bio is completely useless vs Muta Baneling, and mech or bio mech is all we really have versus Zerg. Pure mech takes a lot of skill, Bio mech some.
Gotta really agree with this post. Blizzard already nerfed tanks and it made no difference. Tanks aren't really the problem. If Terran makes only tanks they would lose immediately. The big issue with Terran is units that come with the tanks, those units need to be made weaker so that it makes killing tanks easier.
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On August 03 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Well, let me say, that nerfing tanks even more than - 10dmg from last patch (removing smart AI) will result into withdraw of mech play from TvP all the way, which would make those games as much boring as is TvZ mech. Not to mention, that P would almost always go for Zealot/Templar or fast Colosi, which is fairly strong against Bio as we see these days. I think you're drastically overstating how much an AI nerf to tanks would affect TvP. For one, the fact that tanks are competing with so many more things for gas in TvP than TvZ (ghosts, vikings, ravens, which are all far less common in TvZ, and are still staple components of mech-based TvP) means that you aren't going to mass them as heavily as in TvZ. Furthermore, the general higher health of Protoss units means that even if overkill is possible, unless you've got a pretty high tank count, it's still not going to happen an appreciable amount of the time.
Late game, vikings and ravens are critical to mech. Tanks are fine in TvP. Every tech tree has something to deal with them.
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Make terran pay for range upgrades on the viking and Thor. Marauders should have either same or less range than marines. Zerg needs long range ground unit.
But I disagree, zerg macro is really easy. All queens in one group, all hatches in another, you dont have to go to any specific hatchery to larva, just do it on mini map. Takes 5 seconds to larva 5 bases.
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EPT
