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United States6046 Posts
On August 03 2010 14:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 14:34 Whole wrote:
IdrA said he will switch to Terran if they don't nerf Terran. TesteR said Terran was the strongest race. And if you notice, only like one top Korean plays Terran. (Maka?) No other really good player plays Terran. The current Terran players do not play 12 hours a day every day. The fact that they can compete with the players who do is almost enough proof that something is wrong.
That's just wrong. There are plenty of strong Korean players that play Terran. Rainbow, Ensnare, Maka, Hannibal, Dayfly,...
Well, I don't really follow the foreign scene...so I don't know how good they are preforming or how many exist. I just hear that not many good Korean Terran players exist. I edited Rainbow in before you quoted me, but I only seen him in KotB.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 14:41 Whole wrote:
Well, I don't really follow the foreign scene...so I don't know how good they are preforming or how many exist. I just hear that not many good Korean Terran players exist. I edited Rainbow in before you quoted me, but I only seen him in KotB.
Then why make an extremely presumptuous statement about a scene you know nothing about?
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I always thought that the queen should have an anti terran specific abillity like a scan shield, like the sentry shield but larger, the queen screaming killing the scan frequency or a swarm of mosquitos or something like that more queen option to inject larva, less terran maphack, more scouting, and how the zerg dont have any stealth atack unit (infestor doesnt count) it wouldn be soo imba hahaha, just dreaming...
have to wait to the expansion to any major change anyways
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What I also dislike about the Zerg is that they never set the tone in the game. They are ALWAYS on the recieving end and forced to adapt their builds ACCORDING to what the enemy is doing. Protoss going Colossus? You HAVE to get Corruptors or it's over because your ground army doesen't stand a chance. Terran going Bio? You HAVE to get banelings etc. Terran / Protoss teching to Air? You HAVE to get Hydralisks. (Mutalisks don't really do any good against anything except as a surprise switch if your opponent goes too much anti-ground, and if a Protoss / Terran techs straight to Air in form of Voidray or Banshee, they will be in your base before you get them, and you won't have much resoures either.)
This was different in BW, where Zerg could open up with Lurker / Mutalisk builds to harrass etc.
Now we basically expand, defend, if we defend well, we get the advantage, if we don't, we either lose or get into a pretty big dis-advantage.
Any 1 base play, is technically all-in most of the time, and very easy to block. The most effective one of course being baneling bust.
And it's true, Zerg units feel very bland and generally boring. And tbh, felt alot more like a swarm in BW then I do in SC2. Mainly because units were cheaper, smaller in size and generally faster. (I'm talking about you Hydralisk.) So there I really didn't care about the blandess of my units. Now everygame I play, my core army takes 2 pop. Silly imo.
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Instead of making supply depot raising/lowering an energy cost, just put a 10 second cooldown on it.
This would force the terran to be a bit more decisive on when to leave his base, as there could be a run by immediately after.
I don't think this would affect any match ups that badly.
However the bunker salvage needs to happen, its pretty much free to harass and impossible to kill in the early game.
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On August 03 2010 14:41 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 14:37 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2010 14:34 Whole wrote:
IdrA said he will switch to Terran if they don't nerf Terran. TesteR said Terran was the strongest race. And if you notice, only like one top Korean plays Terran. (Maka?) No other really good player plays Terran. The current Terran players do not play 12 hours a day every day. The fact that they can compete with the players who do is almost enough proof that something is wrong.
That's just wrong. There are plenty of strong Korean players that play Terran. Rainbow, Ensnare, Maka, Hannibal, Dayfly,... Well, I don't really follow the foreign scene...so I don't know how good they are preforming or how many exist. I just hear that not many good Korean Terran players exist. I edited Rainbow in before you quoted me, but I only seen him in KotB.
weren't more than half of these guys WC3 players?
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On August 03 2010 14:52 NonFactor wrote:
What I also dislike about the Zerg is that they never set the tone in the game. They are ALWAYS on the recieving end and forced to adapt their builds ACCORDING to what the enemy is doing. Protoss going Colossus? You HAVE to get Corruptors or it's over because your ground army doesen't stand a chance. Terran going Bio? You HAVE to get banelings etc. Terran / Protoss teching to Air? You HAVE to get Hydralisks. (Mutalisks don't really do any good against anything except as a surprise switch if your opponent goes too much anti-ground, and if a Protoss / Terran techs straight to Air in form of Voidray or Banshee, they will be in your base before you get them, and you won't have much resoures either.)
This was different in BW, where Zerg could open up with Lurker / Mutalisk builds to harrass etc.
Now we basically expand, defend, if we defend well, we get the advantage, if we don't, we either lose or get into a pretty big dis-advantage.
Any 1 base play, is technically all-in most of the time, and very easy to block. The most effective one of course being baneling bust.
And it's true, Zerg units feel very bland and generally boring. And tbh, felt alot more like a swarm in BW then I do in SC2. Mainly because units were cheaper, smaller in size and generally faster. (I'm talking about you Hydralisk.) So there I really didn't care about the blandess of my units. Now everygame I play, my core army takes 2 pop. Silly imo.
Or you could look at it as you are able to hard counter their units quickly since Z can tech switch so fast. Grass is greener...
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On August 03 2010 10:10 Apolo wrote:
How is it that most players are terran?
Count=5000
Top=5000 Terran=1452 Zerg=1253 Protoss=1885 Random=410
1st Protoss
-433
2nd Terran
-199
3rd Zerg
Protoss 38%
Terran 29%
Zerg 25%
Random 8%
Then suddenly on the top 100
Terran 42%
Protoss 31%
Zerg 25%
Random 2%
I don't understand why some people have trouble with the words "imbalance" and "overpowered" and start throwing bits as if everyone that says the game is imbalanced are kids who lost games and came to complain to the forums because they don't have the skills to beat "x" combo of units / strategy. Use your brains for once. See that it's several times more likely that the matchups are imbalanced than not, and the people saying the game is already balanced are the ones that should be laughed at and not the other way around.
This post pretty much sums things up. Excellent.
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I like those ideas suggested by OP, because I see actually, that brain was used making this thread.
I play Terran and after a million threads Ive read suggesting "Nerf tank even more, lets do this to Terran, lets buff this unit from Zerg" I actually dont feel like this is only a pure whining made like 5 min after loosing a game to Terran on ladder. Or is it? (Cloud vs Lalush yesterday on Metalopolis on ladder game..:-))
Anyways, lets see, what time brings when map pool changes a bit and we have some tournament results to cover up all these posts against Terran. Because really, the last competent tournament we all know who was won by..
+ Show Spoiler +
KotB.. Idra demolished qxc, than Tester, there you go..
Cheers
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On August 03 2010 12:52 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran?
Advice: study statistics, it will help you in your real life too.
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On August 03 2010 14:52 NonFactor wrote:
What I also dislike about the Zerg is that they never set the tone in the game. They are ALWAYS on the recieving end and forced to adapt their builds ACCORDING to what the enemy is doing. Protoss going Colossus? You HAVE to get Corruptors or it's over because your ground army doesen't stand a chance. Terran going Bio? You HAVE to get banelings etc. Terran / Protoss teching to Air? You HAVE to get Hydralisks. (Mutalisks don't really do any good against anything except as a surprise switch if your opponent goes too much anti-ground, and if a Protoss / Terran techs straight to Air in form of Voidray or Banshee, they will be in your base before you get them, and you won't have much resoures either.)
This was different in BW, where Zerg could open up with Lurker / Mutalisk builds to harrass etc.
Now we basically expand, defend, if we defend well, we get the advantage, if we don't, we either lose or get into a pretty big dis-advantage.
Any 1 base play, is technically all-in most of the time, and very easy to block. The most effective one of course being baneling bust.
And it's true, Zerg units feel very bland and generally boring. And tbh, felt alot more like a swarm in BW then I do in SC2. Mainly because units were cheaper, smaller in size and generally faster. (I'm talking about you Hydralisk.) So there I really didn't care about the blandess of my units. Now everygame I play, my core army takes 2 pop. Silly imo.
So true.. As a Zerg i find my self adapting to oponent play 95% of time.. With Zerg if you dont scout for 5 minutes and opponent make switch in units he build, you are so dead.. Any 1 base play is not possible except in zvz matchup or if you decite to go all-in rush with zerlings.. That is until you got tier 3, when you have some imba units at disposal (ultralisks/broodlords). But how much games will reach to tier 3 stage?
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On August 03 2010 10:10 Apolo wrote:
How is it that most players are terran?
Count=5000
Top=5000 Terran=1452 Zerg=1253 Protoss=1885 Random=410
1st Protoss
-433
2nd Terran
-199
3rd Zerg
Protoss 38%
Terran 29%
Zerg 25%
Random 8%
Then suddenly on the top 100
Terran 42%
Protoss 31%
Zerg 25%
Random 2%
I don't understand why some people have trouble with the words "imbalance" and "overpowered" and start throwing bits as if everyone that says the game is imbalanced are kids who lost games and came to complain to the forums because they don't have the skills to beat "x" combo of units / strategy. Use your brains for once. See that it's several times more likely that the matchups are imbalanced than not, and the people saying the game is already balanced are the ones that should be laughed at and not the other way around.
That's good science. But... I get diffrent conclusions.
First of all a good statistic that is lacking here is the racial prreference at the general population.
Let's say we find out that the distribution is:
Terran 42%
Protoss 31%
Zerg 25%
Random 2%
In this case, it's obiously the game is not imbalanced as the top 100 represent accuratly the genral distribution, as in mid-high level (Top 5000) Protoss is actually Overpowered.
We can't derive any good conclusions about over represantation in higher levels withouth the needed distribution in the general population (Top 5000 is not the general population)
Another intresting thing that actually by these statistics protoss in the underpowered race when it comes to high level (because zerg % stays the same both in top 5000 and both in top 100, protoss is the one who drops)
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Seriously Ultralisks cream terran mech lategame now that you can't thor-cannon them. Every time I try to get a lategame terran mech ball going I usually get wiped by a large group of Ultras. They really do work. (which is why many Terran do a bio-mech timing push to win the game before zerg gets game-changing Ultras).
That being said I like some of Lalush's suggestions, like changing MULE so that it punishes players with mad mechanics (I was thinking a simple solution would be to cap MULE energy at 100, atleast then you can only save up 2 MULES/scans). His post is really good but all the outdated ZvT whine in this thread is not.
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On August 03 2010 16:41 Silent_Tao wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:10 Apolo wrote:
How is it that most players are terran?
Count=5000
Top=5000 Terran=1452 Zerg=1253 Protoss=1885 Random=410
1st Protoss
-433
2nd Terran
-199
3rd Zerg
Protoss 38%
Terran 29%
Zerg 25%
Random 8%
Then suddenly on the top 100
Terran 42%
Protoss 31%
Zerg 25%
Random 2%
I don't understand why some people have trouble with the words "imbalance" and "overpowered" and start throwing bits as if everyone that says the game is imbalanced are kids who lost games and came to complain to the forums because they don't have the skills to beat "x" combo of units / strategy. Use your brains for once. See that it's several times more likely that the matchups are imbalanced than not, and the people saying the game is already balanced are the ones that should be laughed at and not the other way around. That's good science. But... I get diffrent conclusions. First of all a good statistic that is lacking here is the racial prreference at the general population. Let's say we find out that the distribution is: Terran 42% Protoss 31% Zerg 25% Random 2% In this case, it's obiously the game is not imbalanced as the top 100 represent accuratly the genral distribution, as in mid-high level (Top 5000) Protoss is actually Overpowered. We can't derive any good conclusions about over represantation in higher levels withouth the needed distribution in the general population (Top 5000 is not the general population) Another intresting thing that actually by these statistics protoss in the underpowered race when it comes to high level (because zerg % stays the same both in top 5000 and both in top 100, protoss is the one who drops)
that's pretty funny. i didn't even notice that.
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What I think is, that Blizzard really acomplished a very well balanced, flexible and entertaining race with Terran. Its not like its overpowered, its just very versatile.
All Terran units are useful in given situations and the combination of macro, micro, defensive and offensive play Terran offers is something that really convinces better players to play Terran instead of say Zerg.
Just think of all of this: Terran offers bio, mech, biomech, air, early cheese, fast transition into any unit combination u want/need, scan, mule. The possibility of taking island expos and generally lifting buildings up and doing crazy things, its just.. Then you have micro, harrasment units (both ground and air).. It just too fun to play Terran.
Add to it fact, that Terrans are most "user-friendy" to new players and you have your race for SC2. At least this is why I choose Terran as my race, from the very early stages of Beta even if that was the time everyone was loosing to 4gates etc..
The thing is, that Terran wont make you play specifically as opposed to Zerg. Zerg is supposed to defend, macro up and than throw a swarm of units at your opponent any given time or place.. If you refuse to accept this gameplay, you will find yourself in horrible situations that will make you feel there is something wrong with this race.
Its the versatility and flexibility, what keeps so many good players playing Terrans and therefor you can get a feel, that this race is imbalanced.
Just wait till Koreans will show you, how Zerg is played correctly. I can assure you, that the second Zergs will win major tourneys and people will learn from replays, how you can exploit this race, this whole issue is gone.
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Terran air wouldn't be as big a deal if zerg still had scourge.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135260.jpg)
give zerg a tier 3 turtle breaker like dark swarm
terran can literally plant 20 tanks + 20 turrets at the xel naga tower + AFK until zerg kills himself in the game and in IRL
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As a protoss player, I think these changes are ridiculous, how about actually spend some time discovering timing and builds instead of nerfing every single units of another race. Why would you propose a nerf for every unit? Are all these units in need of nerfing, indeed you probably is just a terribad player. Sorry
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After thinking about it some I am sliding towards the PoV of buffing Zerg rather than nerfing Terran. For the love of god please don't nerf the AA range of Thors, which would completely break the only existing non rush variation of TvT atm.
I appreciate the effort put into the OP (it's really good) but I think we are looking at this from the wrong direction.
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United States6046 Posts
On August 03 2010 16:18 Everlong wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
KotB.. Idra demolished qxc, than Tester, there you go..
+ Show Spoiler +IdrA practices 12 hours a day on a programing team. QXC doesn't. So yeah, professional gamers tend to beat good gamers. If he would have lost, (excluding to early all-in pushes/cheese, because anyone can win with that) then that would be proof of a balance problem. The ZvP match up is fine, why are you bringing up the finals.
On August 03 2010 18:33 Wayra wrote:
indeed you probably is just a terribad player. Sorry
LaLush is actually a very good player who competes in a good deal of tournaments. Although he isn't a powerhouse or a well-known player, you have no right to call him "terribad."
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EPT
