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On August 03 2010 03:32 LaLuSh wrote:
Reasoning:: With zerg, every additional base means another obligatory and repetitive screen switch every 40 in game seconds (about 30 real life seconds) where you have to stop doing what it was you were doing, and start spawning some larva.
I didn't read the entire thread and I don't play z, so excuse me if i'm wrong, but can't you hotkey your queen+hatchery together and eliminate this problem? Almost positive you can
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On August 03 2010 12:15 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
how come in this you don't say anything about changing any zerg... tvz is my hardest matchup as terran... and i'm sure most other terrans can concur i've read through these changes and they seem to only increase the zerg's advantage....??
Because after Zerg got nerfed when they were super strong at the beginning of BETA some of them started making threads upset that they were now such a weak race. It has carried on because everyone else jumped on the bandwagon without any reason. Only because "that guy" said it.
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Terran is a race of gimmicks. That is how they are designed. You can't mess with the gimmicks too much or there's nothing left. As a Terran player I welcome your ill conceived MULE redesign as that'll allow me to drop mass MULES anywhere I need them (i.e. next to my Thor or Fortress).
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On August 03 2010 12:23 sikatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 03:32 LaLuSh wrote:
Reasoning:: With zerg, every additional base means another obligatory and repetitive screen switch every 40 in game seconds (about 30 real life seconds) where you have to stop doing what it was you were doing, and start spawning some larva. I didn't read the entire thread and I don't play z, so excuse me if i'm wrong, but can't you hotkey your queen+hatchery together and eliminate this problem? Almost positive you can
Spawn Larva does not work with the wireframe anymore, you can click your hatch on the minimap; but its not very reliable - might as well doubletab the queen hotkey and go to the location its at.
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I'm sure it's been posted before, but why not just have a cooldown for mules/scan (independent cooldowns)? It seems a more logical solution to what you have posted.
A lot of your propositions are actually pretty great. Good post (I love the idea for the marauders - requires more focused micro  )
Edit: i don't really care for your lowering supply depots - to me its not really that big of an issue.
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On August 03 2010 03:32 LaLuSh wrote:
Reasoning:: With zerg, every additional base means another obligatory and repetitive screen switch every 40 in game seconds (about 30 real life seconds) where you have to stop doing what it was you were doing, and start spawning some larva.
[/QUOTE]
With macro mechanics, terran can come back to base less often than Zergs
But with macro itself, terran has to look more.
Zerg
Production/tech buildings: build one (must look back)
Supply: build overlords from larvae
Terran
Production/tech buildings: build multiple/many (must look back)
Supply: build as a building (must look back)
Zerg can concentrate on managing the hatchery and the queens; the terran must manage each type of building individually
Zerg can build OLs like units using hotkeys, the terran must look back to build them on screen
So I can say this:
Zerg has to screen back to his hatcheries more than the terran has to screen back to his command center
Terran has to screen back to his base more than the zerg has to screen back to his base (for building tech/production buildings/supply depots, assuming that static defenses are similar for both races)
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To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran?
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On August 03 2010 12:23 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:15 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
how come in this you don't say anything about changing any zerg... tvz is my hardest matchup as terran... and i'm sure most other terrans can concur i've read through these changes and they seem to only increase the zerg's advantage....?? Because after Zerg got nerfed when they were super strong at the beginning of BETA some of them started making threads upset that they were now such a weak race. It has carried on because everyone else jumped on the bandwagon without any reason. Only because "that guy" said it.
Yea, this is exactly the reason this legitimate conversation has carried on for months.
Yep, not because every Zerg player of every skill level has played what they thought to be a great game, legitimately got a great macro and food advantage over their opponent, only to watch their well-balanced army literally melt to tanks.
It's not because those same players try and take a different approach and say ok, I'll build some mutas for harass, to slow down the terran. Then they watch Thors obliterate their mutas from 7 range, that is when the terran's 50 mineral T1 marines or 100m T1.5 turrets or 150 mineral 75 gas range 9 vikings aren't around to do the job for them.
I'm not even crying about balance, but suggesting that everyone who is espousing the viewpoint that the TvZ might possibly be imbalanced in terran's favor are just morons listening to some "random first guy" is just plain foolish and ignorant.
Hey. Also, just to make sure this post is controversial enough, here's a fun fact. According to Blizzard's own definition, Terran mech vs Zerg is Cheese. The argument can certainly be made that ZvT mech is completely balanced. In fact, as a Zerg player I personally think it definitely can be beaten with the right tactics and strategies, but even the most biased terran players will agree it takes a metric shit-ton of effort on the Zerg's part, utilizing flanking, positioning, drops, and FG/NP all at the right times and in the right places on the map.
Cheese - An easy-to-learn, but hard-to-master rush strategy that is generally more difficult to defend against than it is to execute.
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This thread is why went cannot have nice things. Bad ideas, bad proofs, and stuff like this: "Terran mech vs Zerg is Cheese". Terran Bio is just not cost effective against zerg. So, they must do mech. Also, this: "Cheese - An easy-to-learn, but hard-to-master rush strategy that is generally more difficult to defend against than it is to execute." applies to any attack ever. So yeah.
"
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On August 03 2010 12:52 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran?
this is such a results-oriented way of thinking. just because one zerg player dominates the field (someone who lives in korea and probably plays a LOT more than the players he's playing and on top of that was a very very good BW player) you conclude that zerg>terran, while statistical and observational data clearly suggests that terran > zerg.
for every zerg you tell me that gets a couple of good wins against terrans, I can show you 2 mediocre terrans who win against good zerg.
idra is just much much better than the players he's playing, and that's the only reason he wins so much. if the terrans he's playing were close to his skill, he would be crushed. my mind boggles just thinking about the possibilities that a terran with good multitasking has.
I'm random by the way, still haven't really decided what to play.
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Bring back Dark Swarm, CASE CLOSED!
Also, balance MULES.
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I think this is the only balance change thread that was actually well done and mostly right on and ya... idra wins because the players he plays are complete trash (with the exception of tester) and idra is just simply very good.
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On August 03 2010 13:12 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:52 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran? this is such a results-oriented way of thinking. just because one zerg player dominates the field (someone who lives in korea and probably plays a LOT more than the players he's playing and on top of that was a very very good BW player) you conclude that zerg>terran, while statistical and observational data clearly suggests that terran > zerg. for every zerg you tell me that gets a couple of good wins against terrans, I can show you 2 mediocre terrans who win against good zerg. idra is just much much better than the players he's playing, and that's the only reason he wins so much. if the terrans he's playing were close to his skill, he would be crushed. my mind boggles just thinking about the possibilities that a terran with good multitasking has. I'm random by the way, still haven't really decided what to play.
It never gets old hearing the "terran players just aren't as good as toss/zerg otherwise they'd win all the tournaments" argument. Practically every major tournament (the ones with big $$$) was won by toss/zerg. And every single time, it's just because the terran players were bad? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Maybe terran does have an advantage, but at the highest level it is not apparent. If it were, then we'd see players switching to terran.
See: Demuslim. Swapped to protoss and beat toss in mirror matches. I'd think that we'd see a lot more of that if terran were really so overpowered and easy to play.
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On August 03 2010 13:53 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 13:12 heishe wrote:On August 03 2010 12:52 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran? this is such a results-oriented way of thinking. just because one zerg player dominates the field (someone who lives in korea and probably plays a LOT more than the players he's playing and on top of that was a very very good BW player) you conclude that zerg>terran, while statistical and observational data clearly suggests that terran > zerg. for every zerg you tell me that gets a couple of good wins against terrans, I can show you 2 mediocre terrans who win against good zerg. idra is just much much better than the players he's playing, and that's the only reason he wins so much. if the terrans he's playing were close to his skill, he would be crushed. my mind boggles just thinking about the possibilities that a terran with good multitasking has. I'm random by the way, still haven't really decided what to play. It never gets old hearing the "terran players just aren't as good as toss/zerg otherwise they'd win all the tournaments" argument. Practically every major tournament (the ones with big $$$) was won by toss/zerg. And every single time, it's just because the terran players were bad? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Maybe terran does have an advantage, but at the highest level it is not apparent. If it were, then we'd see players switching to terran. See: Demuslim. Swapped to protoss and beat toss in mirror matches. I'd think that we'd see a lot more of that if terran were really so overpowered and easy to play.
I believe that whole switch to P and all of a sudden win business was quite a long time ago so due to the balance changes since then it probably doesn't apply anymore (or at least as much as it did at the time).
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Terran has way more abilities to use during a fight, way make them watch other places more often?
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Just make 2 roaches per egg (3 food) and lower viking range, mule cooldown plus thors +1 food
and the game would be perfect
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 14:09 SaTuR wrote:
Just make 2 roaches per egg (3 food) and lower viking range, mule cooldown plus thors +1 food
and the game would be perfect
2 roaches per egg is a pretty profound change, that would most definitely upset the very good PvZ balance that we have at this point. Even if you scale the mineral/gas cost accordingly, it ignores the huge effect that 2 roaches per egg would have on larva management.
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u take about balance but it seem more like a nerf chat
u say its hard 4 zerg to recover after a hard fight...
thik a bit about terran if we loose a battle we cant instantly build many unit like protoss or zerg with wrapgate and larva we have to build them 1 by 1
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United States6046 Posts
On August 03 2010 13:53 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 13:12 heishe wrote:On August 03 2010 12:52 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
To point out how dumb this post is, Idra's current record for the release is 78-10. As if winning the King of the Beta tournament, including a 3-0 stomping of QXC wasn't enough to show how ZvsT favors Z, now Idra is beating the best Diamond players easily and the op wants more advantages for Zerg. As it stands right now, Idra probably has one of the best record amongst all Diamond divisions.
Why doesn't the op learn to play like Idra instead of complaining about losing to Terran? this is such a results-oriented way of thinking. just because one zerg player dominates the field (someone who lives in korea and probably plays a LOT more than the players he's playing and on top of that was a very very good BW player) you conclude that zerg>terran, while statistical and observational data clearly suggests that terran > zerg. for every zerg you tell me that gets a couple of good wins against terrans, I can show you 2 mediocre terrans who win against good zerg. idra is just much much better than the players he's playing, and that's the only reason he wins so much. if the terrans he's playing were close to his skill, he would be crushed. my mind boggles just thinking about the possibilities that a terran with good multitasking has. I'm random by the way, still haven't really decided what to play. It never gets old hearing the "terran players just aren't as good as toss/zerg otherwise they'd win all the tournaments" argument. Practically every major tournament (the ones with big $$$) was won by toss/zerg. And every single time, it's just because the terran players were bad? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Maybe terran does have an advantage, but at the highest level it is not apparent. If it were, then we'd see players switching to terran.
IdrA said he will switch to Terran if they don't nerf Terran. TesteR said Terran was the strongest race. And if you notice, only like two top Korean plays Terran. (Maka & EntertheRainbow?) No other really good player plays Terran. The current Terran players do not play 12 hours a day every day. The fact that they can compete with the players who do is almost proof that something is wrong.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 14:34 Whole wrote:
IdrA said he will switch to Terran if they don't nerf Terran. TesteR said Terran was the strongest race. And if you notice, only like one top Korean plays Terran. (Maka?) No other really good player plays Terran. The current Terran players do not play 12 hours a day every day. The fact that they can compete with the players who do is almost enough proof that something is wrong.
That's just wrong. There are plenty of strong Korean players that play Terran. Rainbow, Ensnare, Maka, Hannibal, Dayfly,...
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EPT
