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On August 03 2010 21:35 MorroW wrote:
ok so idra says problem is early game, i agree. spoken to almost all top zergs and many terrans about this, ppl in general just seem to think zerg has to respond by 100% of what terran does, and terran has like 20 solid opening bos that work well against like everything. z just got huge risk of getting run over in the early game while nowadays i never see a terran lose early game.
so maybe we should just make the terran early game less optional and make zerg defense early on to allow zerg to fast expand before speedling, i think that would change alot
siege tanks... i mean when i play tvz i wanna make siege tanks vs anything. no siege tanks and u get run over by banelings, so thats why i have siege tanks - to kill banelings before they reach me and to kill infestors before the fungual me.
in theory vs a non-baneling infestor army i dont need siege tanks, but i would still want siege tanks. so that feels like they serve their purpose, kill banes and infestor but they kind of own the other shit as well. i get my rines marauder hellion should be enough to deal with roach hydra ling but still tank end up owning that shit better than the other terran units as well. if they nerfed siege tanks so they would overkill then it would be harder to micro, more important to split up ur army.
so thats great. it would still allow me to kill banes and infestor but at the same time it would be less effective vs masses of lings and hydra because of overkill. but this is hellions job, right now siege tanks are doing hellions job and they almost kill roach and ultra just as good as marauders.
protoss units are so tough along with marauders that overkill wouldnt really affect that much in tvp and tvt so ye maybe these are the ways to go. zerg more options early game and terrans less effective options early game leading to more interesting early game and terran might need to be defender once in a while instead of always choosing which way the game should go. and then also the tank overkill which makes micro and tank positioning and manual control alot more important. makes zerg better, terran worse and terran harder to play, great stuff imo.
but i seriously just hate when ppl come ranting random shit about why the mu is imbalanced, according many ppl in this thread the spell Lower is the bad guy here... 99.9% of zerg users play incorrectly and overall awful. idra plays all day and safe to say hes best zerg or at least within the top3 and he wins alot, but he still tends to lose against non-top terrans and i think the reason behind that is because of the early game zerg end up crippled or die almost all of the times^^
Absolutely agree with this.
I think the Zerg players who are getting harassed alot and then playing catch up and eventually lose to a push in the midgame really need to understand that.
I don't think there has been a game since release where I have lost against a Terran player who just turtled the whole game and waited for 200/200 off 2 base etc.
The ones I seem to feel powerless against are the harassment players who open with things like.
1 base reaper/bunker --> 1 base banshee/viking --> marine tank.
The only real response to that reaper bunker opening is to make zerglings when you don't want to. It also delays any sort of expansion. Immediately after you deal with you have to begin making spore crawlers and tech to mutalisks if you wanna survive the banshees. During this time Terran is expanding roughly about the same time you are.
I might get an infestor out with some banelings etc, but he ultimately has a much bigger food army than me because I have lost so much time to the early harassment which, although preventable does more damage to me than it does to the terran player.
Actually mind blowing thinking about how many drones I didn't make because the terran player build 3 things (reaper bunker banshee). Cost to Terran is like 300 minerals in units. I have to spend like 250 minerals on 10 lings + 4 spore crawlers + expansion delayed + lost mining time, easily works out to like well over 1000 minerals and this is before taking into account any damage done by his units to my drones etc.
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There is a huge discrepancy between gas and mineral cost for the Zerg that I don't feel is present with the other races (I play Random in diamond). Anyone else feel this to be true?
My fixes
- Reduce range or splash on Thor. Provide upgrade for range research (150/150 or 200/200)
- Reduce range on Viking. Provide upgrade for research
- Siege mode needs to be more expensive to research.
- Concussive shells need to cost more than a SCV.
- Lurker
- A cliff maneuvering unit for Zerg (roach can tunnel up walls or perhaps ultralisk)
- A research for the queen where they can be made from larva.
- Mutalisks - 150/75 (fix the clumping or get rid of thor splash) Thors hard counter mutas way too easily.
- Mutas should morph into the other 2 flying units. How did they devolve in the first place?!
- The range upgrade for hydralisks should turn the animation into acid covered spike missiles. I really miss acid shooting hydralisks. (this would put more fear into the hearts of Terrans)
- Burrow should be a tier 1 upgrade and should be like 150/50 or 100/50.
- Does anyone like the idea of hatching queens out of larva?
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I think that in order to balance TvZ marauders should lose the stim ability and instead have a unit specific upgrade titled: "Ambiguous Segway". The ambiguous segway would cost 50/50 and make marauders 3 supply. It would be similar to upgrading a hydralisk to a lurker in taht you would have to upgrade each marauder individually.
The Ambiguous Segway would permanently cloak the marauder as well as give it hellion speed and laser eyes like the colussus but smaller and at broad wavelength output spectrum (infrared to low ultraviolet) so that way they coudl be used at low wattages through diffusing lens in order to facilitate base shrubbery growth.
Also orbital commands should lose the MULE ability and gain the RESURRECT BILLY MAYS ability. Where for 100 energy Billy Mays's ghost would market the terran's minerals to the intergalactic marketplace, thereby increasing all SCVs' yield by 40%. This would help terrans.
These changes good.
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On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
I expected the OP to be stupid and unrealistic. However, these changes are actually really sensible. TvZ is fucking RIDICULOUS at the moment, and is clearly the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Something has to be done about this balance-wise, but whatever it is, it has to be something that won't throw off the TvP matchup and give P a large advantage over T. Luckily, T is way too strong vs both other races, so I think a general T nerf is in order. There's absolutely nothing to show that TvP is imbalanced in any way. Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P.
What nonsense- How is Idra winning tournaments then?
High level zerg play requres more tactics than a-move into tanks. (like has been said about 10000x in this thread). Honestly why is this thread not closed already? Its just a back and forth of "yes its broken!" "no its not!"
No progress is being made here.
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If siege mode is any more expensive, it'll likely kill a lot of builds in TvP, and hurt Terran overall. Concussive Shells also cost gas, but I think an upgrade to 100/100 wouldn't break the game. It might effect early game TvP with things like the CauthonLuck build. As for Mutas, you CAN spread them out. Something like eight mutas can take out a thor spread out. Everything else I like especially the queen thing.
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Seems no one knows who LaLuSh is and are treating his suggestions like they were from the bnet forums. I bet if TLO made this post things would be different...
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On August 03 2010 22:21 LF9 wrote:
Marauder is fine on second thought, so I recant that. A Thor + Viking nerf (range or damage vs air, either is fine) and some change to Siege Tanks to make them less of a counter-all against Zerg ground units, would work wonders for the matchup.
The problem with Thor and Viking range is that apart from the Terran has no means to defend against air if we exclude marines (which would make the only viable build full bio, which is rubbish against zerg). Viking would be rubbish without it's long range, it's multifunction vehicle which doesn't really excell at anything.
Siege tanks already recieved nerf, I can't imagine more changes to them without completly breaking the unit. Zerg has it's ground swarm, so when you send a hundred of speedlings towards a line of sieged tanks, they get obliterated... boo-hoo. Maybe not trying to take tank line heads on might be a good idea. Like exploiting the fact that they are slow and very vulnerable while stationing. It's not like zerg have no mobility, right?
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On August 03 2010 22:40 trevf wrote:
I think that in order to balance TvZ marauders should lose the stim ability and instead have a unit specific upgrade titled: "Ambiguous Segway". The ambiguous segway would cost 50/50 and make marauders 3 supply. It would be similar to upgrading a hydralisk to a lurker in taht you would have to upgrade each marauder individually.
The Ambiguous Segway would permanently cloak the marauder as well as give it hellion speed and laser eyes like the colussus but smaller and at broad wavelength output spectrum (infrared to low ultraviolet) so that way they coudl be used at low wattages through diffusing lens in order to facilitate base shrubbery growth.
Also orbital commands should lose the MULE ability and gain the RESURRECT BILLY MAYS ability. Where for 100 energy Billy Mays's ghost would market the terran's minerals to the intergalactic marketplace, thereby increasing all SCVs' yield by 40%. This would help terrans.
These changes good.
Marauders aren't an issue in TvZ to my knowledge. XDDDD
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On August 03 2010 22:44 araged wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:21 LF9 wrote:
Marauder is fine on second thought, so I recant that. A Thor + Viking nerf (range or damage vs air, either is fine) and some change to Siege Tanks to make them less of a counter-all against Zerg ground units, would work wonders for the matchup. The problem with Thor and Viking range is that apart from the Terran has no means to defend against air if we exclude marines (which would make the only viable build full bio, which is rubbish against zerg). Viking would be rubbish without it's long range, it's multifunction vehicle which doesn't really excell at anything. Siege tanks already recieved nerf, I can't imagine more changes to them without completly breaking the unit. Zerg has it's ground swarm, so when you send a hundred of speedlings towards a line of sieged tanks, they get obliterated... boo-hoo. Maybe not trying to take tank line heads on might be a good idea. Like exploiting the fact that they are slow and very vulnerable while stationing. It's not like zerg have no mobility, right?
Turrets. A key part of mech is turrets.
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On August 03 2010 22:42 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:On August 03 2010 22:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
I expected the OP to be stupid and unrealistic. However, these changes are actually really sensible. TvZ is fucking RIDICULOUS at the moment, and is clearly the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Something has to be done about this balance-wise, but whatever it is, it has to be something that won't throw off the TvP matchup and give P a large advantage over T. Luckily, T is way too strong vs both other races, so I think a general T nerf is in order. There's absolutely nothing to show that TvP is imbalanced in any way. Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P. What nonsense- How is Idra winning tournaments then? High level zerg play requres more tactics than a-move into tanks. (like has been said about 10000x in this thread). Honestly why is this thread not closed already? Its just a back and forth of "yes its broken!" "no its not!" No progress is being made here.
To be fair, QXC did a bio mech style that apparently doesn't work at all. XDD.
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On August 03 2010 22:42 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:13 LF9 wrote:On August 03 2010 22:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 03 2010 22:08 LF9 wrote:
I expected the OP to be stupid and unrealistic. However, these changes are actually really sensible. TvZ is fucking RIDICULOUS at the moment, and is clearly the most imbalanced matchup in the game. Something has to be done about this balance-wise, but whatever it is, it has to be something that won't throw off the TvP matchup and give P a large advantage over T. Luckily, T is way too strong vs both other races, so I think a general T nerf is in order. There's absolutely nothing to show that TvP is imbalanced in any way. Maybe I was exaggerating, I don't play this matchup (TvP), but my point stands - ZvT is imbalanced in favor of T, to the point of being unplayable at the top level. Perhaps, if TvZ is horrible but TvP is balanced, the proper response is a buff to Z and a very slight nerf to certain aspects of T that wouldn't necessarily hinder then against P. What nonsense- How is Idra winning tournaments then? High level zerg play requres more tactics than a-move into tanks. (like has been said about 10000x in this thread). Honestly why is this thread not closed already? Its just a back and forth of "yes its broken!" "no its not!" No progress is being made here.
i think its hilarious that idra is saying how awful zerg has it right now and yet ironically people are still trying to defend terran balance by stating that idra has won tournaments. lol 
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On August 03 2010 22:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:26 LF9 wrote:
Perhaps nerfing Thor's base range against air by a SUFFICIENT amount, and putting a rather expensive, time-consuming upgrade at the armory that serves to up Thor's anti-air range to it's current value would help. I believe the issue there is not one of balance, but the fact that TvT finally found a unit composition that can compete with the Tank/Viking compositions that were basically ubiquitous in TvT throughout beta. Without the ability to force air units out of Tank spotting range on the Thor, Marauder/Thor compositions suffer a lot, and we go back to the same old Tank/Viking that gets very little variation.
And since in a month's time the only matchups you are likely to play is TvT and the occasional TvP this is a huuuuuuge issue! J/K
I agree with morrow.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2010 22:44 psion wrote:
Seems no one knows who LaLuSh is and are treating his suggestions like they were from the bnet forums. I bet if TLO made this post things would be different...
People know who Lalush is. The thing is, these just really aren't that well thought out. Two of them are barely relevant to TvZ (Marauder & Medivac), one of them would result in no real gameplay changes (depot lifting--people would just open and close their walls with the rax/fac like they do in BW), and one is a lot more cumbersome than possible changes that accomplish similar goals (MULE).
Arguably the thread would be more well received if the viking/thor and bunker changes were all that were mentioned--because the other changes aren't really that good.
On August 03 2010 22:47 Zinbiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:28 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2010 22:26 LF9 wrote:
Perhaps nerfing Thor's base range against air by a SUFFICIENT amount, and putting a rather expensive, time-consuming upgrade at the armory that serves to up Thor's anti-air range to it's current value would help. I believe the issue there is not one of balance, but the fact that TvT finally found a unit composition that can compete with the Tank/Viking compositions that were basically ubiquitous in TvT throughout beta. Without the ability to force air units out of Tank spotting range on the Thor, Marauder/Thor compositions suffer a lot, and we go back to the same old Tank/Viking that gets very little variation. And since in a month's time the only matchups you are likely to play is TvT and the occasional TvP this is a huuuuuuge issue! J/K I agree with morrow.
I don't consider it an improvement if we fix one matchup by breaking another. It should be possible to address TvZ imbalance without making TvP and TvT worse.
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I still don't understand how any zerg player with any understanding of the game could think marauders are a balance concern and are too hard to beat for what they bring to the game. Siege tanks, I can see, but marauders? It makes no sense
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Looking at mech in BW you see that if the T player went more goliaths they would be weaker against ground but if they went for more tanks they would be weaker against air. In SC2 this doesn't seem to happen :<
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On August 03 2010 16:41 Silent_Tao wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 10:10 Apolo wrote:
How is it that most players are terran?
Count=5000
Top=5000 Terran=1452 Zerg=1253 Protoss=1885 Random=410
1st Protoss
-433
2nd Terran
-199
3rd Zerg
Protoss 38%
Terran 29%
Zerg 25%
Random 8%
Then suddenly on the top 100
Terran 42%
Protoss 31%
Zerg 25%
Random 2%
I don't understand why some people have trouble with the words "imbalance" and "overpowered" and start throwing bits as if everyone that says the game is imbalanced are kids who lost games and came to complain to the forums because they don't have the skills to beat "x" combo of units / strategy. Use your brains for once. See that it's several times more likely that the matchups are imbalanced than not, and the people saying the game is already balanced are the ones that should be laughed at and not the other way around. That's good science. But... I get diffrent conclusions. First of all a good statistic that is lacking here is the racial prreference at the general population. Let's say we find out that the distribution is: Terran 42% Protoss 31% Zerg 25% Random 2% In this case, it's obiously the game is not imbalanced as the top 100 represent accuratly the genral distribution, as in mid-high level (Top 5000) Protoss is actually Overpowered. We can't derive any good conclusions about over represantation in higher levels withouth the needed distribution in the general population (Top 5000 is not the general population) Another intresting thing that actually by these statistics protoss in the underpowered race when it comes to high level (because zerg % stays the same both in top 5000 and both in top 100, protoss is the one who drops)
Well lets assume the general population is garbage and cannot play their race anyway.
Now lets limit our population to only the people who are in the top 5000 on the ladder (still a lot of garbage but better) Now we see that Protoss is doing really well, unfortunately from much experience in high level play we know Protoss is infact not imbalanced at the moment. This leads us to believe that the top 5000 is not high enough to really see what is balanced. We take it higher to the top 100 and get a distribution that describes what we are seeing, protoss decently represented terran over represented and zerg under represented because the better zerg players are being overshadowed by some of the terrans who are winning tvz almost every game.
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On August 03 2010 22:44 psion wrote:
Seems no one knows who LaLuSh is and are treating his suggestions like they were from the bnet forums. I bet if TLO made this post things would be different...
Maybe... maybe not. I know who LaLush is, but seriosuly hes just whining just, like idra does, and indra has been cleaning fucking house. Zergs just need to hold off the midgame tank push and the terran mech problem goes away. Baneling bombs, baneling mines, creative use of fungal growth and mind control, Ultralisk drops, roach burrow, nydus aggro, the list goes on. Its not broken, its just a puzzle that has yet to be solved truly effectively. Mark my words, in less than 2 months people (even LaLush) will be laughing about how noob they were when the game came out that they couldnt handle mech as zerg. If TLO made this post... well he wouldn't because i dont think hes that short sighted.
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On August 03 2010 22:49 Numy wrote:
Looking at mech in BW you see that if the T player went more goliaths they would be weaker against ground but if they went for more tanks they would be weaker against air. In SC2 this doesn't seem to happen :<
Well Zerg has literally no good air. Vikings are out by the time BLs are available, so the zerg is super limited. So a Zerg air unit that's decent would work wonders.
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On August 03 2010 22:40 trevf wrote:
I think that in order to balance TvZ marauders should lose the stim ability and instead have a unit specific upgrade titled: "Ambiguous Segway". The ambiguous segway would cost 50/50 and make marauders 3 supply. It would be similar to upgrading a hydralisk to a lurker in taht you would have to upgrade each marauder individually.
The Ambiguous Segway would permanently cloak the marauder as well as give it hellion speed and laser eyes like the colussus but smaller and at broad wavelength output spectrum (infrared to low ultraviolet) so that way they coudl be used at low wattages through diffusing lens in order to facilitate base shrubbery growth.
Also orbital commands should lose the MULE ability and gain the RESURRECT BILLY MAYS ability. Where for 100 energy Billy Mays's ghost would market the terran's minerals to the intergalactic marketplace, thereby increasing all SCVs' yield by 40%. This would help terrans.
These changes good.
I totaly agree we need a patch! this is a good start.
Oh and i think its hard for zerg to type: "Terra is so imba" after loose.
All Z should chat this messige instant if they leave...
or they can config it, so that they can change it every game like:
hellion are op. tank are op. viking are op. mar are op. raven are op......
and a option to spam this messiges at random points in the game
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On August 03 2010 22:52 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 22:49 Numy wrote:
Looking at mech in BW you see that if the T player went more goliaths they would be weaker against ground but if they went for more tanks they would be weaker against air. In SC2 this doesn't seem to happen :< Well Zerg has literally no good air. Vikings are out by the time BLs are available, so the zerg is super limited. So a Zerg air unit that's decent would work wonders.
What do you mean by 'no good air'? What would be required for it to be good or worth it?
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EPT
