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opkoad
United States28 Posts
Zerg has always had this problem where larva spawns on only the front facing side of the hatch, and so as zerg, your units can only come from there. With the rally point change, the situation is even worse -- if I want my units to immediately attack when they spawn, I have to manually set the rally point of each egg to just outside the egg basically. If there was simply a key that let you cancel a rally point on a building, that would help a lot. | ||
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KamuL
United States154 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
And you can just not rally into enemy armies...or whatever you were doing before, it's kind of hard to understand. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
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opkoad
United States28 Posts
Piy: wasn't asking for them to change it back, just needed a way to cancel rally point. My personal preference is that they would make it an option though. So if you do Ctrl+Rally it does an attack move or something like that. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Kantutan
Canada1319 Posts
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naiad
Portugal8 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:31 Kantutan wrote: Yeah I liked it way better how it used to be... I've nearly lost games by forgetting to change rally points as zerg when the enemy is right up by my hatch. it happens to everyone, the solution isn't a reverse to old rally points or adding a cancel rally point.. you just need to adapt to it and keep in mind you'll have to watch out for those rally points =p in 1 month you won't even remember this change was made, imo there's no need to ask for a change ( not saying you are but you had the whole situation well summed up =p ) | ||
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Kantutan
Canada1319 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:37 naiad wrote: it happens to everyone, the solution isn't a reverse to old rally points or adding a cancel rally point.. you just need to adapt to it and keep in mind you'll have to watch out for those rally points =p in 1 month you won't even remember this change was made, imo there's no need to ask for a change ( not saying you are but you had the whole situation well summed up =p ) But why is it that the new rally points are better? One would think you would want your newly created units to auto-attack the enemy more often than not. How often is it that your new units will pass an enemy and you want it to keep moving rather than walk by and take hits. I know scouting units can throw the unit off track occasionally, but it's a lot easier to notice if your units are chasing after something than to have to change rally points in the midst of every battle that happens near your base. It's in your best interest to kill the scout ASAP anyways. Besides, production facilities should be relatively close to eachother anyways so it's not like it happens very often where they run into something before they reach the rally destination. As mentioned above, the correct solution would be to allow players to choose what kind of rally they want to do. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:46 memcpy wrote: The move rally was an excellent change. I don't even think they should bring back the attack rally as a secondary option because that would just reduce the skill required to properly manage units. And as many of you know, mechanics that reward higher levels of skill are something we definitely need more of in Starcraft 2. Things that make the game unintuitive, hard for newer players, and don't actually raise the skill cap at the high end whatsoever are completely uneccessary. That type of logic is why no one outside of Korea and tiny communities cared about Brood War. Rally points aren't a better/worse type thing. Neither takes more skill. With attack move rally, your reinforcements could end up hanging out and attacking overlords rather than being at the main battle. Both situations require micro and skill to correct. Without attack move rally, your units could end up walking somewhere uselessly when you want them to be attacking. Very bad-AI Brood-War-esque, hence why some people--- notably only TL users and Brood War players-- prefer it that way. If I'm not mistaken, this change was mostly made because attack rally made things a little too HARD for zerg in a few situations. Wouldn't it have been more skillfull for them to sit there and manually move zerglings when they first pop out rather than letting them attack uselessly until a sizable force was built up? This is a matter of preference and what you need in a specific situation. There is absolutely no good reason for a + rally to not be an option. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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SiegeFlank
United States410 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:46 memcpy wrote: The move rally was an excellent change. I don't even think they should bring back the attack rally as a secondary option because that would just reduce the skill required to properly manage units. And as many of you know, mechanics that reward higher levels of skill are something we definitely need more of in Starcraft 2. Micro > Attack-move. This change only effects the skill gap at low levels of play if you ask me. Edit: The skill ceiling is hardly effected by this change, as high level players are selecting and adding reinforcing units to their control groups as they travel the field anyway, and using micro to maximize their lifespan. It is only the the 'skill floor' which is effected, as there is now an even lower low you can begin learning from. | ||
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bulge
161 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:57 bulge wrote: on this note, lets say you tell a probe to build 10 pylons, but the last pylon is in the wrong spot. how do you cancel the last command without canceling all the others? The only way to do this without having to waypoint the first 9 again is to just wait until he has put 9 down, then issue a new command before the 10th is created. | ||
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Lane
United States46 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:46 memcpy wrote: The move rally was an excellent change. I don't even think they should bring back the attack rally as a secondary option because that would just reduce the skill required to properly manage units. And as many of you know, mechanics that reward higher levels of skill are something we definitely need more of in Starcraft 2. That's a terrible excuse. By your logic, they should remove worker rally points, go back to 12-limit on control groups, remove smart casting etc... Penalizing players for not micromanaging mundane tasks does not improve the game. A game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. There are plenty of ways for rewarding skilled players already. A person whose base is being attacked is already in panic mode and has to do a ton of work to try to defend it. It makes absolutely no sense to add even more failure points to base defending. It was a bad decision in the wrong direction. | ||
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petzergling
538 Posts
On July 26 2010 09:05 Lane wrote: That's a terrible excuse. By your logic, they should remove worker rally points, go back to 12-limit on control groups, remove smart casting etc... Penalizing players for not micromanaging mundane tasks does not improve the game. A game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. There are plenty of ways for rewarding skilled players already. A person whose base is being attacked is already in panic mode and has to do a ton of work to try to defend it. It makes absolutely no sense to add even more failure points to base defending. It was a bad decision in the wrong direction. good logic imo | ||
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
Attack rallies were really annoying when you were getting bunker rushed or zealot rushed at your FE as zerg. You lings would pop out and run towards the bunker or zealots and quite often take unnecessary damage with little options for avoiding besides giving them a new command the moment they spawn (and still suffer consequences of any slight delay). | ||
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GoodNewsJim
United States122 Posts
Previously, I'd rally units to my other units which were attacking. Then they'd meet my units and attack if encountered in case I forget to add them to my group. Now, I just rally units to the top of my ramp, and periodically bring the units up to my current units. It hurts my attack, but it is better than units coming to my hotkeyed units and just standing around doing nothing. In the future, I may rally units to my attacking units and constantly reform control groups as a habit in case new units come, but I'm not that hard up for an improvement in my game yet. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On July 26 2010 09:05 Lane wrote: That's a terrible excuse. By your logic, they should remove worker rally points, go back to 12-limit on control groups, remove smart casting etc... Penalizing players for not micromanaging mundane tasks does not improve the game. A game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. There are plenty of ways for rewarding skilled players already. A person whose base is being attacked is already in panic mode and has to do a ton of work to try to defend it. It makes absolutely no sense to add even more failure points to base defending. It was a bad decision in the wrong direction. That's too noob. I say NO UNIT GROUPS at all! And drop mice and keyboard support and only allow track ball mice. Hotkeys? IN MY GAME!? | ||
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harky
98 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:46 memcpy wrote: The move rally was an excellent change. I don't even think they should bring back the attack rally as a secondary option because that would just reduce the skill required to properly manage units. And as many of you know, mechanics that reward higher levels of skill are something we definitely need more of in Starcraft 2. There's a difference between bad game design and making it hardcore-friendly aka noob-unfriendly. | ||
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
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Thoreezhea1
United States532 Posts
 problem fixed | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On July 26 2010 10:43 junemermaid wrote: I remember a very very similar thread when the rally was A-move.... Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which is why they need to make it optional. Regular move with right click or a+move. Its also intuitive, because thats how everything else works. Its the only way that actually adds a skill cap-- knowing when to use or the other. | ||
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cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On July 26 2010 09:05 Lane wrote: That's a terrible excuse. By your logic, they should remove worker rally points, go back to 12-limit on control groups, remove smart casting etc... Penalizing players for not micromanaging mundane tasks does not improve the game. A game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. There are plenty of ways for rewarding skilled players already. A person whose base is being attacked is already in panic mode and has to do a ton of work to try to defend it. It makes absolutely no sense to add even more failure points to base defending. It was a bad decision in the wrong direction. Good points. I agree that there are several ways to improve the skill cap without removing things like an attack rally option. However, when I wrote that I did have in mind a few high level VODs where move rally hurt a player. This is especially important in early game ZvZ with lings and banelings flying all over the map. Oh and for anyone arguing that it should go back to just attack rally, it definitely shouldn't because with the b.net delay, not even skilled players can prevent their speedlings from popping and instantly running into attacking units. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On July 26 2010 11:02 memcpy wrote: Good points. I agree that there are several ways to improve the skill cap without removing things like an attack rally option. However, when I wrote that I did have in mind a few high level VODs where move rally hurt a player. This is especially important in early game ZvZ with lings and banelings flying all over the map. Oh and for anyone arguing that it should go back to just attack rally, it definitely shouldn't because with the b.net delay, not even skilled players can prevent their speedlings from popping and instantly running into attacking units. No one argued that ever. lol. The most intuitive system would be right clicking issuing a move rally-- as right clicking issues move commands. A + right clicking would issue an attack rally. | ||
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Lane
United States46 Posts
On July 26 2010 11:12 Ndugu wrote: No one argued that ever. lol. The most intuitive system would be right clicking issuing a move rally-- as right clicking issues move commands. A + right clicking would issue an attack rally. "A" builds marines and maybe other things, so you can't do that without hotkey conflicts. | ||
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lim1017
Canada1278 Posts
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
Most of these complaints are centered around "if I'm focusing on the winning the battle at the front, and my opponent does a flank on my reinforcements or drop in my base (basic tactics to relieve pressure at the front), I'm worse off without attack-move rally points." If something like that happens, you should be going back to micro those units anyway, since even if they are on attack-move, they will still get picked off one by one. Having units on move allows you to choose which units to stay and fight and which units to go off to the front without extra clicks. An common example from SC1 is if you get recalled as Terran in TvP, you want all your reinforcement tanks to stay to defend, but most of your vultures go to the front to reinforce your push. | ||
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frankcrest
Canada90 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
I know some of you might have relied on the rallies being attacks but that's not a good habit. You should pay attention to your attacking units. I'm all for units doing what you tell them to do, and too many times i would rally my zealots to the enemy base, so i could then tell them to attack once they would get there, however they would instead follow a worker that they happened to run into while on their way to the enemy base, causing a huge loss in the timing of the attack. Move is the way to go. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
You should be punished for having your units intercepted. Otherwise there is less micro and more macro when it should be the other way around. | ||
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Pking
Sweden142 Posts
Does anyone know the reasoning behind the change? I really hope it was'nt because some whiners thought it "reduced the skill required to properly manage units". | ||
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