EPT[D] zerg vs ground armored units - Page 2
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
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extempest
Canada77 Posts
a good toss or terran plazer always a few hellions and zealots to the mix aswell does zerg have any answer for this?.... all i know is overpower their mix with mass but sometimes that wont work well zealots would tank the lings (still counrerable by having roaches in the front and lings on the flank and attack the stalkers only) while hellions pretty much roast em (no idea how do u counter helion and marauder mix) both of hellions and marauder own zerg tier 1 to 1.5 units | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:44 AnxietE wrote: You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up. Oh yeah I meant that morphing would cost money too (like banelings). | ||
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ionlyplayPROtoss
Canada573 Posts
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freshiie22
Canada132 Posts
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waffling1
599 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:52 GhoSt[shield] wrote: No. The issue is not zergling DPS but the size of many armoured units such as the marauder that are small enough that when completely surrounded by zerglings the zerglings do not do much damage. 200/200 for adrenal glands is silly at Lair Tech. It is not the same because larva is a resource. In the fight they are equal in supply and min/gas but using up the larva resource for fights early seriously impedes your econ by using larva for lings instead of drones. yes that is right. but how far do u want to take the differences? what i was trying to demonstrate is nonsense is this notion: You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up. | ||
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
Yes that is retarded. There are no stupid answers, just stupid P_____e Tier 1.5 zergling....pretty sure that is the baneling. And since when can lings shoot up? Queens are just fine for anti-air. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:56 freshiie22 wrote: LMAOOOO a a unit that morphs form 2 lings lol, what are zerglings changelings now morphing in to Banelings and now a zerg fiend. We really needa stop posting stuff like this up Blizzard will figure it out leave it to the Dteam Actually zerglings are kinda like "morphlings" since they can morph into banelings already. That and two already hatch from the same egg so, lore-wise, it kind of makes sense that they could join back up again. How do you think I got the idea in the first place? Anyway, I don't really care I just thought it was an interesting idea and threw it out there but obviously it was a bad idea. No sweat it's not like my balls are attached to it. | ||
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theburricane
United States65 Posts
Roaches at T1.5 also do well against armored. Their attacks are slow and meaty enough that opponents' armor doesn't reduce their damage output very much, even though they don't have a +damage vs armored. And Hydralisks at T2 do so much damage that it doesn't matter how much armor a unit has, they're going to chew it up in no time. On creep, both Roaches and Hydralisks have an additional mobility advantage against many armored troops, giving them yet another edge. | ||
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Jollyburner
Canada190 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:34 cr4ckshot wrote: Are you trying to imply something? During mid-game, the DPS of hydras and roaches are pretty high, so while Zerg doesn't do any "bonus" damage against armored units until ultras, it doesn't mean that they can't respond to a player that builds armored units. this, FG, and speedling surround. | ||
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Jollyburner
Canada190 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:42 SugarBear wrote: This works 90% of the time but on certain maps (Desert Oasis) terran players can rush 2 starports and get out 3-5 banshees that will destroy a lot of queens even if you transfuse micro. uhmm... 3-5 banshees? can we really get that before u get hydras/mutas/corruptors? preety sure u can get lair before i have 2 starports and 5 banshees. build 7 mutas, run away w drones, kill banshees, pump ground, lol @ no tanks walled terran, open door with mutas, gg. if it was imba at all in this respect it would have been corrected by blizz ages ago. and heavily abused by all plat+ beta terran main players. i think as zerg you should be much more concerned about the fact that without spinecrawlers i can probly front door you if you FE w/bioball for gg. if you dont FE u better be going roach or muta, or roach/hydra, and expo on your push. if i see this tho ill probly just scout it and counter. sneaky mutas still get me tho, plenty of scoutfail vs aware opponenets. | ||
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perfectflaw72
Canada94 Posts
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Flameberger
United States226 Posts
Protoss have a unit that can teleport but the other races dont? Preposterous! give blink to roaches and marauders! | ||
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extempest
Canada77 Posts
what gives? banelings serve for light units not roaches | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
There are also a few of those units that are terribly one dimensional. I love banelings to death but they only kill a very very specific type of unit (well, zealots and marines really, they need to be light, tight packed and ground units). Corruptors are similarly a pure anti colossus/BC/mothership (maybe some anti muta or phoenix but they die to void rays and vikings worse than mutas) which you don't see all that often. Add it up and Zerg have: Queens (more of a turret than an attacking unit, especially on any decent sized map) Banelings (if he goes marines/zealots) Corruptors (if you are really unable to deal with some colossi or air) Hydras (if he is light on siege tanks/colossi) Mutas (if he is very heavy on siege tanks/colossi) Zerglings and Roaches for anything else, which includes just about everything. So in any ground battle we almost have to fall back on some form of roach/ling with a little support of some kind. We don't have the option of going full mech or full bio or air or a mix because where we have those units above, Terran has: Marine Marauder Ghost Hellion Tank Thor Banshee Viking 2 casters Obviously having more units opens more tactical options, not to mention several terran units are very effective against both ground and air (Viking, Thor, Marine) where really the Zerg only have 2 (and arguably 1, the muta is not stellar as anti air, or in fact as anti-anything-that-can-shoot-back). One idea a friend of mine pointed out would be to make banelings deal their building damage to massive units. This would given them 2 targets per race rather than just one (the Thor and the colossus) and give Zerg a solution to thors and a solution to colossi that doesn't involve a spire. It also makes some logical sense as thors seem more like buildings than units. If banelings were dealing siege tank damage to thors the terran players would have to be much more careful in their positioning and advance (siege tanks can act as shields or destroy the banelings but if they get to the thors they do major damage). | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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CScythe
Canada810 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:31 extempest wrote: correct me if I' wrong, since I don't have access to sc2 game atm, but is zerg dont have any anti ground armored unit except ultralisk? but terran got marauder for anti ground armored units and toss got immortal and stalker(?) (does stalker deal bonus dmg on armor?) so basically terran can counter any armored unit in tier 1 while toss can counter armored units in tier 1.5 or 2 but zerg is in tier 3? discuss Okay yeah but ground armored units are: Marauder (tier 1/1.5) Siege Tank (Tier 2/2.5) Thor (Tier 2.5/3) Viking (Tier 2) Stalker (Tier 1.5) Immortal (Tier 2) Collosus (Tier 3) Roach (Tier 1.5) Infestor (Tier 2) Ultralisk (Tier 3) of all the Armored units the only ones can't can't be handled with zerglings and good surrounds alone are Siege tanks and Infestors, and ultralisks. Collosus's are up to positioning and player skill as to which beats which. and siege tanks only once they get up to a certain amount. Also Spinecrawlers deal + damage to armored. But yeah you can use zerglings until you get to ultralisks to handle armored units, and also hydralisks have rediculous DPS in Starcraft 2. they attack pretty close to twice a second at 13 damage each hit. | ||
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harky
98 Posts
Zerg damage output is fine. It really is. There are other problems such as range and mobility that are problems, but damage? No. Look more at the fact that you need to upgrade the movement speed of two of your units to make them really usable and another you're forced to spread creep to use offensively. Then figure out why a race with really squishy fast melee units, very slow but fragile ranged units and very low damage high health units struggles against a composition with very high range splash damage. I wonder. | ||
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theburricane
United States65 Posts
On July 24 2010 13:14 Sixes wrote: The bottom line is that zerg have fewer units. Not only fewer units overall (which they do) but also fewer units accessible in the time most games are played (which excludes ultras and broodlords where the toss can get to colossi and the terran can get thors). There are also a few of those units that are terribly one dimensional. I love banelings to death but they only kill a very very specific type of unit (well, zealots and marines really, they need to be light, tight packed and ground units). Corruptors are similarly a pure anti colossus/BC/mothership (maybe some anti muta or phoenix but they die to void rays and vikings worse than mutas) which you don't see all that often. Add it up and Zerg have: Queens (more of a turret than an attacking unit, especially on any decent sized map) Banelings (if he goes marines/zealots) Corruptors (if you are really unable to deal with some colossi or air) Hydras (if he is light on siege tanks/colossi) Mutas (if he is very heavy on siege tanks/colossi) Zerglings and Roaches for anything else, which includes just about everything. So in any ground battle we almost have to fall back on some form of roach/ling with a little support of some kind. We don't have the option of going full mech or full bio or air or a mix because where we have those units above, Terran has: Marine Marauder Ghost Hellion Tank Thor Banshee Viking 2 casters Obviously having more units opens more tactical options, not to mention several terran units are very effective against both ground and air (Viking, Thor, Marine) where really the Zerg only have 2 (and arguably 1, the muta is not stellar as anti air, or in fact as anti-anything-that-can-shoot-back). One idea a friend of mine pointed out would be to make banelings deal their building damage to massive units. This would given them 2 targets per race rather than just one (the Thor and the colossus) and give Zerg a solution to thors and a solution to colossi that doesn't involve a spire. It also makes some logical sense as thors seem more like buildings than units. If banelings were dealing siege tank damage to thors the terran players would have to be much more careful in their positioning and advance (siege tanks can act as shields or destroy the banelings but if they get to the thors they do major damage). I think the addition of Infestors quite complicates the situations you've described above. They function against massed units / mobility-based units with Fungal Growth, deal with high-priority units with Neural Parasite (new 12s limit notwithstanding), and have a wealth of unexplored potential in Infested Terrans. Infestors While I agree that units such as Banelings and Corruptors are being used one-dimensionally, I don't think that means they are one-dimensional. Early in the beta, Roaches were a completely one-dimensional unit: players massed roaches and only roaches and just 1a'd to victory. Now we've seen Roaches with Tunneling Claws make Terran weep in all new ways. New micro tricks with Void Rays have come to light, promising some amazing new potential that was inconceivable at the beginning of the Beta. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying don't give up hope yet!  You also mention that Zerg does not have the option of going "full mech or full bio or air or a mix." Could I ask what you meant by that? I didn't completely get it. Did you mean that "Zerg has to get ling/roach + support, whereas Terran has no 'required' base units"? I can imagine a similar argument that goes "T has to go biomech or mech, because Z has Banelings." Thanks~ | ||
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