[D] zerg vs ground armored units

On July 24 2010 10:37 SugarBear wrote:
A bigger problem is zerg doesn't have a low-tier 1 food unit that can shoot up.

I'm thinking they should add something in, like the "Zerg Fiend" that is morphed from two zerglings (like an archon) and requires a tier 1.5 tech building (like banelings). Costs 1 food, shoots up, and should be a little stronger than 1 zealot.

On July 24 2010 10:37 SugarBear wrote:
A bigger problem is zerg doesn't have a low-tier 1 food unit that can shoot up.

I'm thinking they should add something in, like the "Zerg Fiend" that is morphed from two zerglings (like an archon) and requires a tier 1.5 tech building (like banelings). Costs 1 food, shoots up, and should be a little stronger than 1 zealot.

On July 24 2010 10:40 cr4ckshot wrote:


No, there is no issue. Make more than 1 queen if you want anti-air.

On July 24 2010 10:41 tskuzzy wrote:
Perhaps move the Adrenal Glands upgrade to Lair tech?

On July 24 2010 10:37 SugarBear wrote:
A bigger problem is zerg doesn't have a low-tier 1 food unit that can shoot up.

I'm thinking they should add something in, like the "Zerg Fiend" that is morphed from two zerglings (like an archon) and requires a tier 1.5 tech building (like banelings). Costs 1 food, shoots up, and should be a little stronger than 1 zealot.

On July 24 2010 10:42 SugarBear wrote:


This works 90% of the time but on certain maps (Desert Oasis) terran players can rush 2 starports and get out 3-5 banshees that will destroy a lot of queens even if you transfuse micro.

On July 24 2010 10:42 SugarBear wrote:


This works 90% of the time but on certain maps (Desert Oasis) terran players can rush 2 starports and get out 3-5 banshees that will destroy a lot of queens even if you transfuse micro.

On July 24 2010 10:45 Goobus wrote:


I play Zerg, and I'm perfectly able to get hydras/mutas up by the time terran has 3-5 banshees.

On July 24 2010 10:44 AnxietE wrote:


You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up.

On July 24 2010 10:41 tskuzzy wrote:
Perhaps move the Adrenal Glands upgrade to Lair tech?

On July 24 2010 10:51 waffling1 wrote:
..... roughly 4 lings = 1 zlot in fighting so it's all the same

100 minerals, 2 supply for 4 lings
100 minerals 2 supply for 1 zlot.

On July 24 2010 10:44 AnxietE wrote:


You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up.

On July 24 2010 10:52 GhoSt[shield] wrote:


No.
The issue is not zergling DPS but the size of many armoured units such as the marauder that are small enough that when completely surrounded by zerglings the zerglings do not do much damage.
200/200 for adrenal glands is silly at Lair Tech.



It is not the same because larva is a resource. In the fight they are equal in supply and min/gas but using up the larva resource for fights early seriously impedes your econ by using larva for lings instead of drones.

You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up.

On July 24 2010 10:56 freshiie22 wrote:
LMAOOOO a a unit that morphs form 2 lings lol, what are zerglings changelings now morphing in to Banelings and now a zerg fiend. We really needa stop posting stuff like this up Blizzard will figure it out leave it to the Dteam

On July 24 2010 10:34 cr4ckshot wrote:
Are you trying to imply something?

During mid-game, the DPS of hydras and roaches are pretty high, so while Zerg doesn't do any "bonus" damage against armored units until ultras, it doesn't mean that they can't respond to a player that builds armored units.

On July 24 2010 10:42 SugarBear wrote:


This works 90% of the time but on certain maps (Desert Oasis) terran players can rush 2 starports and get out 3-5 banshees that will destroy a lot of queens even if you transfuse micro.

On July 24 2010 10:31 extempest wrote:
correct me if I' wrong, since I don't have access to sc2 game atm, but
is zerg dont have any anti ground armored unit except ultralisk?

but terran got marauder for anti ground armored units
and toss got immortal and stalker(?) (does stalker deal bonus dmg on armor?)

so basically terran can counter any armored unit in tier 1
while toss can counter armored units in tier 1.5 or 2
but zerg is in tier 3?
discuss

On July 24 2010 13:14 Sixes wrote:
The bottom line is that zerg have fewer units. Not only fewer units overall (which they do) but also fewer units accessible in the time most games are played (which excludes ultras and broodlords where the toss can get to colossi and the terran can get thors).

There are also a few of those units that are terribly one dimensional. I love banelings to death but they only kill a very very specific type of unit (well, zealots and marines really, they need to be light, tight packed and ground units). Corruptors are similarly a pure anti colossus/BC/mothership (maybe some anti muta or phoenix but they die to void rays and vikings worse than mutas) which you don't see all that often.

Add it up and Zerg have:
Queens (more of a turret than an attacking unit, especially on any decent sized map)
Banelings (if he goes marines/zealots)
Corruptors (if you are really unable to deal with some colossi or air)

Hydras (if he is light on siege tanks/colossi)
Mutas (if he is very heavy on siege tanks/colossi)

Zerglings and Roaches for anything else, which includes just about everything.

So in any ground battle we almost have to fall back on some form of roach/ling with a little support of some kind. We don't have the option of going full mech or full bio or air or a mix because where we have those units above, Terran has:

Marine
Marauder
Ghost
Hellion
Tank
Thor
Banshee
Viking
2 casters

Obviously having more units opens more tactical options, not to mention several terran units are very effective against both ground and air (Viking, Thor, Marine) where really the Zerg only have 2 (and arguably 1, the muta is not stellar as anti air, or in fact as anti-anything-that-can-shoot-back).

One idea a friend of mine pointed out would be to make banelings deal their building damage to massive units. This would given them 2 targets per race rather than just one (the Thor and the colossus) and give Zerg a solution to thors and a solution to colossi that doesn't involve a spire. It also makes some logical sense as thors seem more like buildings than units. If banelings were dealing siege tank damage to thors the terran players would have to be much more careful in their positioning and advance (siege tanks can act as shields or destroy the banelings but if they get to the thors they do major damage).

On July 24 2010 15:26 Jermstuddog wrote:
I wouldn't say this is an issue for Z.

While you're pointing out that there is no bonus dmg vs armor, you should also note that there is no bonus dmg vs light, and Z units do high damage in general.

This is more a thing where all Z units do solid damage vs all other units.

My big complaint is that corruptors do bonus dmg to massive and not armored, this makes them rather weak against anything but collosi and BCs...

On July 24 2010 10:31 extempest wrote:
correct me if I' wrong, since I don't have access to sc2 game atm, but
is zerg dont have any anti ground armored unit except ultralisk?

but terran got marauder for anti ground armored units
and toss got immortal and stalker(?) (does stalker deal bonus dmg on armor?)

so basically terran can counter any armored unit in tier 1
while toss can counter armored units in tier 1.5 or 2
but zerg is in tier 3?
discuss

On July 24 2010 11:46 theburricane wrote:
Lings do pretty well against armored units because of their cost effectiveness: they're cheap as hell. What a single zergling lacks in raw damage output against armored foes, it makes up for by a) having 20 other lings right next to it and b) being amazingly fast. The mobility of zerglings is as powerful against most armored troops, if not more, than any +damage vs armored could be.

Roaches at T1.5 also do well against armored. Their attacks are slow and meaty enough that opponents' armor doesn't reduce their damage output very much, even though they don't have a +damage vs armored.

And Hydralisks at T2 do so much damage that it doesn't matter how much armor a unit has, they're going to chew it up in no time. On creep, both Roaches and Hydralisks have an additional mobility advantage against many armored troops, giving them yet another edge.

On July 24 2010 13:51 theburricane wrote:


I think the addition of Infestors quite complicates the situations you've described above. They function against massed units / mobility-based units with Fungal Growth, deal with high-priority units with Neural Parasite (new 12s limit notwithstanding), and have a wealth of unexplored potential in Infested Terrans. Infestors

While I agree that units such as Banelings and Corruptors are being used one-dimensionally, I don't think that means they are one-dimensional. Early in the beta, Roaches were a completely one-dimensional unit: players massed roaches and only roaches and just 1a'd to victory. Now we've seen Roaches with Tunneling Claws make Terran weep in all new ways. New micro tricks with Void Rays have come to light, promising some amazing new potential that was inconceivable at the beginning of the Beta. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying don't give up hope yet!

You also mention that Zerg does not have the option of going "full mech or full bio or air or a mix." Could I ask what you meant by that? I didn't completely get it. Did you mean that "Zerg has to get ling/roach + support, whereas Terran has no 'required' base units"? I can imagine a similar argument that goes "T has to go biomech or mech, because Z has Banelings." Thanks~

On July 24 2010 10:44 AnxietE wrote:


You realoze you make 2 zerglings per food, for 50. and zealots are 100 mins, 2 food. So this makes Zerg overpoweredish. it would basiccaly be a strong zerg T1.5 Zergling that is stronger than a zealot for half the cost and food. Oh, and its ranged. And it shoots up.

On July 24 2010 18:57 Deckkie wrote:


I don't really know if Zerg really misses their anti armor comparing Roaches and Marauders.

Marauder: 100min/25gas; 125 HP; 10dam +10dam vs armoured; 2 food
Rauch: 75min/25gas; 145 HP; 16dam ; 2 food

On July 24 2010 22:33 Sixes wrote:



I agree with your points, notably the infested Terran and burrow move being underused.

I left out casters on purpose (including medivac and Raven). I feel the Raven has as much potential as the infestor but is generally more obvious to use and as Terran already have siege tanks the hunter seeker is underutilized.

What I meant with the bio/mech/biomech/air is that with that any units Terran can completely ignore a large part of their tech tree and either concentrate on bio (using 2-4 of the units above depending on whether they take Ghosts or Medivacs), ignore it altogether by using factory units or go air. All of those sets have counters to everything in the game (marines and thors both take care of mutas very well, marauders and siege tanks overlap etc). Zerg on the other hand has so few units that we are often restricted to 1 unit to counter something (like mutas for siege tanks) which means the opponent can very easily force the zerg player and predict the outcome.

To give a concrete example, say I open mutas fast off of 2 bases (I often do actually). Now I know my Terran opponent has 3 options, and I have 3 different responses. If he goes Thors I need mass lings (and upgrades because mass lings don't counter thors well without upgrades), if he goes marines I need banelings and if he goes vikings in a big way I may need hydras (there is a critical mass of vikings where they become bad news for mutas). So when I try to "force" a player, I really just reduce the number of siege tanks and hellions and marauders.

On the other hand, if a Terran player makes siege tanks fast and I happened to not go spire off the start, I now immediately need a spire for mutas. He knows this so by making siege tanks and then starting to make any of the muta counters, he is covered.

See, where I always need to scout exactly what he has to react, he can force a tech and anticipate the counters.

As for the marauder versus Roach discussion people really need to stop comparing anything to unstimmed marauders. The fact is if there are marauders in any numbers they have stim and concussive shell which greatly improves their DPS, allows them to kite things and gets them into position (especially with range 6) a lot faster. There is a reason TvT sees stim marauders breaking a tank line up front but nothing in Zerg does.

I have been looking at my own replays, and other than some macro issues (not taking a third early enough) I think the main thing I need to start considering is in base hatches. Add an extra queen and hatch, make lings. It seems the absolute all star in my games is a pack of 60 lings, which do horrendous damage before dying and get rebuilt fast except I lack larvae. This also frees up all gas for muta/infestor/upgrades while keeping the enemy paranoid (because they burrow !).

60 lings: 30 pop, 1500 minerals. For the same cost (and assuming gas is no more precious than minerals) they can destroy any terran unit that is even somewhat surrounded (actually anything that isnt in a choke).

I am currently thinking the solution may be to get 15 mutas or so (harassing the whole time), accumulate near 200/200 of lings (so 30 of mutas, 60-70 of drones by then and 200 lings) then run the mutas in just to destroy the wall (regardless of losses) and run 200 lings in, not even attack move, just normal move half to main half to expansion and attack when they get nicely in there. This should be doable off of 3-4 base (maybe not 200 lings but 120+ should be enough to annihilate anything) and with 2 hatches per base and 2 queens it should be a continuous stream of zerglings ... need to try it.