Seeing as the Beta has been down for much too long, I've been playing around in unit tester maps a great deal. As I was doing so, I noticed some CRAZY things. Things that almost make me want to switch to protoss they are so awesome. And they all include Void Rays.
Void Ray Trick #1) Lets take a look at Void Rays for a second. Void Rays are very interesting, because the damage that they do has no cooldown. When they attack, they do instant damage. In other words, if you micro a Void Ray back an forth between 2 targets, and click faster than the ticks would usually be ticking on a single target, you can do double damage. More than double damage in fact, it scales with how fast you click. By doing this, you can see in this video that you can kill 2 Hydras as quick with 2 Void Rays as you can kill 1 Hydra with 2 Void Rays. And this is with my terribly lagging stone age computer (which lags even more with Fraps running).
IMPORTANT NOTE : You can only faze while uncharged with the Void Rays. After testing, fazing seems to be more effective than charging as long as you are fighting multiple targets, but it is also possible to charge THEN faze. It is certainly more powerful when you reach critical mass of Void Rays, as you will see in the next video.
I like this trick so much, that I'm going to call it "Fazing". Don't fix this Blizzard. I know it doesn't make sense, I just want something named after me. In fact, I'm going to become a world famous caster just so I can one day call this "Fazing" (if anyone ever uses it).
Void Ray Trick #2) Another trick that these terrifying units can do, is vaporize an entire army in about a second. Since there is no cooldown on their attack, once you reach a certain critical mass (The amount of HP that the enemy units have / 3-4), you can shift attack all the enemy 1 by 1, and watch as the units die literally as fast as you can click them due to no time between target damage. Even better, if you can see them before they get in range, you can click the entire army - and watch as they get vaporized in a fraction of a second as the Void Rays get in range. Ok, maybe that's an exaggeration, but it's certainly faster. This works best against units that are outranged by Void Rays. Like unranged Hydras. Or workers. They can't even do damage.
I uploaded these 2nd videos in non-HD. I don't need a 20 second video that less than 100 people will watch to be in 720p. Hehe.
Video #1 - 8 Void Rays against 50 workers. 1a2a3a attack move style. (Kill time, ~20 seconds from engagement to total probe death)
Video #2 - 8 Void Rays Against 50 workers. Attacks queued. (Kill time, ~11 seconds from engagement to total probe death)
This is a significant difference, as damage is essentially doubled. The probes have much less time to run when they are dying twice as quickly. It would definitely be harder to click them while they are moving, but I'm sure the top progamers would have no problem with it . This is also exceptionally powerful against marines.
Pretty awesome find, sounds like something they'll eventually patch about if they hear about it though. Either way, nice micro trick. L3 voids with fast hands would be raw-some. Thanks :D
e-- also way to have a concise youtube video. that's so under-appreciated; that couldve been a 1:30-2+ minutes video with you introducing the concept and explaining it blah blah then doing it one at a time. i love something that's to the point.
Some small things I noted from watching the video, your testing on local ping, so it might be harder to pull that kind of fast switching when your playing online due to the higher ping. Also, the un-microed rays went up to medium charge (indicated by the energy graphic at the source of their beam) while the microed rays stayed at low charge.
Although if your in a situation that gives you the luxury to fully charge your rays first (destructible rocks), THEN microing them to do fast switching, that will do a lot of hurt.
Balance wise I personally feel its pretty situational, all we can do is test it out in an actual match or see if any of the pros use it to gain a significant advantage in what would be a losing scenario.
I like it! I want more of this stuff, this is what seperates the man from the boys. Keep it! I may regret it one day, playing Zerg but everything that involves extraclicks for an edge is a good thing imo.
Cool. I kind of hope they don't patch it. In a way, its actually balanced. You need at least two units to do it, and they wont charge up if you faze, as opposed to if you just leave them focusing.
I'm pretty sure this will get patched. Early game the first trick will make a big difference compared to the normal usage of viod rays, therefore i'm pretty sure it will be OP in the right hands.
Using the trick will not allow the void rays to charge up, they however can keep the charge if they've already charged up somewhere else. This pretty much balances this and makes it a trick that needs a lot of work for good execution, Blizzard has no reason to "fix" this before someone is able to use it in an imbalanced way.
We don't need patrol micro or mutalisk stacking when we have all kinds of new tricks. In a few years there will be so many cool things we can't even imagine of at this point.
Heh, refreshing charge without doing damage has been known for a while now, but it's still good to remind everyone. Also, VRs can be charged on rocks and even your own buildings (shields repair quickly) to prepare for a fight.
There's actually another trick that I've come across. It's not Void Ray related and is 100% useless, but the mechanics are interesting nonetheless. I'll record it and post it up in a few minutes.
On July 05 2010 19:10 Grokken wrote: As soon as you have enough voidrays to one-shot workers you can kill the entire enemy mineral line in less than one second by shift-queuing.
On July 05 2010 19:13 Puosu wrote: Using the trick will not allow the void rays to charge up, they however can keep the charge if they've already charged up somewhere else. This pretty much balances this and makes it a trick that needs a lot of work for good execution, Blizzard has no reason to "fix" this before someone is able to use it in an imbalanced way.
We don't need patrol micro or mutalisk stacking when we have all kinds of new tricks. In a few years there will be so many cool things we can't even imagine of at this point.
Charging up on a refinery is "a lot of work?" I'm all for neat tricks coming from bugs, but if this stays in it's probably going to ruin the metagame. The amount of damage you can do with this trick is absolutely insane, and PvP will turn into a dull Void-fest.
Then again, I may be wrong, and this will lead to all sorts of insane Protoss builds. I doubt it, though.
I play as zerg but definitely think this should be kept in the game. It's a rather micro intensive trick and void rays are already somewhat micro demanding. besides, doing this(fazing) with a few voidrays for too long will definitely keep you from doing anything else at all really. Hence it boils down to decision making(how long will you focus on fazing) and micro(duh ) and it's not that hard to learn but somewhat difficult to master(aim and, again, micro). So lower level players can learn it if they want to but dont need it and at the same time on the top levels this can certainly mean shifting the outcome of a battle/harass.
Of course practical testing in real battles will truly show how powerful this will be
Void ray trick #2 though sounds really powerful if not OP even. Looking forward to that video.
On July 05 2010 19:10 Grokken wrote: As soon as you have enough voidrays to one-shot workers you can kill the entire enemy mineral line in less than one second by shift-queuing.
On July 05 2010 19:10 Grokken wrote: As soon as you have enough voidrays to one-shot workers you can kill the entire enemy mineral line in less than one second by shift-queuing.
Very relevant first post sir.
Tested this out in galaxy editor. You actually need surprisingly many void rays to one shot scvs. Versus moving scvs the void rays started to be quite ineffective as they weren't all perfectly in range at the same time, I could get a few quick bursts where a ton of scvs went boom but when you have that many void rays the scvs will die in a quick time anyway. One mistake of attack moving in to the ground will break the shift-queue spree. Is it worth the additional effort?
It still looks very nice when the void rays are microed that way, this might be our new reaver harassment causing spectators to go wild. Shame that it's mainly a late game tactic seeing as how many void rays you need.
On July 05 2010 19:13 Puosu wrote: Using the trick will not allow the void rays to charge up, they however can keep the charge if they've already charged up somewhere else. This pretty much balances this and makes it a trick that needs a lot of work for good execution, Blizzard has no reason to "fix" this before someone is able to use it in an imbalanced way.
We don't need patrol micro or mutalisk stacking when we have all kinds of new tricks. In a few years there will be so many cool things we can't even imagine of at this point.
Charging up on a refinery is "a lot of work?" I'm all for neat tricks coming from bugs, but if this stays in it's probably going to ruin the metagame. The amount of damage you can do with this trick is absolutely insane, and PvP will turn into a dull Void-fest.
Then again, I may be wrong, and this will lead to all sorts of insane Protoss builds. I doubt it, though.
The constant spam clicking requires a lot work. Add having to first charge up and then keep the charge up while moving by attacking your own void rays or whatever is there. Obviously if you can charge up at your enemy's base it's going to make it easier but most of the time this will result in your opponent having enough time to react and make your attack not as effective.
I doubt this will destroy PvP in any way, this wont make up for the fact that void rays are huge glass cannons and as soon as your opponent gets a notable amount of stalkers (maybe with blink, even) they're just going to melt before the damage gets done. Also this will probably not even be worth it on battle.net because of latency, looks like you need really fast speed to do this and it just wont work when the void rays react a few ms later.
I remember way back in phase one someone did this to me vs my zerg and got speed upgrade for void rays as well. The thing is it requires ALOT of micro in order to be getting that damage be controlling them at all times during any battle.
There is only so fast u can do it as well, if you click really super fast u won't damage anything. Also once charged there is a delay when changing targets so it no longer works.
The constant spam clicking requires a lot work. Add having to first charge up and then keep the charge up while moving by attacking your own void rays or whatever is there. Obviously if you can charge up at your enemy's base it's going to make it easier but most of the time this will result in your opponent having enough time to react and make your attack not as effective.
I doubt this will destroy PvP in any way, this wont make up for the fact that void rays are huge glass cannons and as soon as your opponent gets a notable amount of stalkers (maybe with blink, even) they're just going to melt before the damage gets done. Also this will probably not even be worth it on battle.net because of latency, looks like you need really fast speed to do this and it just wont work when the void rays react a few ms later.
On July 05 2010 19:10 Grokken wrote: As soon as you have enough voidrays to one-shot workers you can kill the entire enemy mineral line in less than one second by shift-queuing.
Very relevant first post sir.
Tested this out in galaxy editor. You actually need surprisingly many void rays to one shot scvs. Versus moving scvs the void rays started to be quite ineffective as they weren't all perfectly in range at the same time, I could get a few quick bursts where a ton of scvs went boom but when you have that many void rays the scvs will die in a quick time anyway. One mistake of attack moving in to the ground will break the shift-queue spree. Is it worth the additional effort?
It still looks very nice when the void rays are microed that way, this might be our new reaver harassment causing spectators to go wild. Shame that it's mainly a late game tactic seeing as how many void rays you need.
On July 05 2010 19:13 Puosu wrote: Using the trick will not allow the void rays to charge up, they however can keep the charge if they've already charged up somewhere else. This pretty much balances this and makes it a trick that needs a lot of work for good execution, Blizzard has no reason to "fix" this before someone is able to use it in an imbalanced way.
We don't need patrol micro or mutalisk stacking when we have all kinds of new tricks. In a few years there will be so many cool things we can't even imagine of at this point.
Charging up on a refinery is "a lot of work?" I'm all for neat tricks coming from bugs, but if this stays in it's probably going to ruin the metagame. The amount of damage you can do with this trick is absolutely insane, and PvP will turn into a dull Void-fest.
Then again, I may be wrong, and this will lead to all sorts of insane Protoss builds. I doubt it, though.
The constant spam clicking requires a lot work. Add having to first charge up and then keep the charge up while moving by attacking your own void rays or whatever is there. Obviously if you can charge up at your enemy's base it's going to make it easier but most of the time this will result in your opponent having enough time to react and make your attack not as effective.
I doubt this will destroy PvP in any way, this wont make up for the fact that void rays are huge glass cannons and as soon as your opponent gets a notable amount of stalkers (maybe with blink, even) they're just going to melt before the damage gets done.
Thanks for trying it ! It might be a little hard to micro VRs efficiently, but think that it was the first time you tried it and it was still powerful. In BW, even with hundred hours of practice, progamers muta micro is not as destructive as these VRs.
It can still be used as a deadly mid/late game harass. Like do it on 3 expos in a row while enemy's army on the battlefield. No workers in 20 seconds.
People are seeing this for the first time on some youtube video and are already screaming imba? It looks quite powerful yes, but it also denies them for charging (unless already charged) and it takes a lot of micro so if your opponent is doing this, he isn't doing much else.
Not saying that this isn't imba but I'm ready to give this a try. If the game would turn into that all protoss players would just mass voids and nobody could do anything in several days/week then they should think about fixing this.
Holy, what a nice find! Maybe now people will believe that micro can still be made by the players in a more advanced game. I have sort of noticed this before because when you get a critcal mass of voidrays that can one shot marines it will take a far higher ratio of marines to kill them than normal.
There is only so fast u can do it as well, if you click really super fast u won't damage anything. Also once charged there is a delay when changing targets so it no longer works.
I say leave it its cool.
I dunno if anyone noticed this... but i tested it and its not as strong as everyone is making it out to be.
Uh, this completely needs to be fixed immediately. You can easily write a macro that can click between two units as many times as the game physically allows in a second, insta-killing them. I haven't tried it, but if it truly scales with click speed, this would be a serious problem.
On July 05 2010 19:48 iEchoic wrote: Uh, this completely needs to be fixed immediately. You can easily write a macro that can click between two units as many times as the game physically allows in a second, insta-killing them. I haven't tried it, but if it truly scales with click speed, this would be a serious problem.
On July 05 2010 19:48 iEchoic wrote: Uh, this completely needs to be fixed immediately. You can easily write a macro that can click between two units as many times as the game physically allows in a second, insta-killing them. I haven't tried it, but if it truly scales with click speed, this would be a serious problem.
read the comments in this thread
not to mention illegal and get your shit banned, also most u can do is double damage cuz if its faster clicking it will just not hit anything.
The damage done by this trick does not scale with the speed of your clicking.
What's actually happening is that the attack is being 'split' into two, targetting the two hydras. The problem is, when it's 'split' the damage itself isn't being split so it deals full damage to the two hydras. But it only attacks them both once per 0.6 seconds (the cooldown).
So while it still does twice the amount of damage it should be doing, it most certainly does not scale with click speed. That's why all three hydras die at the same time in the video.
On July 05 2010 19:48 iEchoic wrote: Uh, this completely needs to be fixed immediately. You can easily write a macro that can click between two units as many times as the game physically allows in a second, insta-killing them. I haven't tried it, but if it truly scales with click speed, this would be a serious problem.
read the comments in this thread
I read the comments, the OP said it scales, I haven't seen proof either way yet.
Edit: above post was more helpful than this one, thanks.
wow I can't believe how many of you said you want this to remain in the game?
This is basically the identical situation that happened with reavers in SC1 where they were missing the cooldown when they unloaded from shuttle. Sure it sounds fun, but when every game involving P starts becoming Void Ray gayness it won't be fun anymore.
Plus, this is like many times more Imba than the reaver bug was, coz you can do it by simply spamming right click. Reaver+Shuttle at least demanded some more mechanical skills and didn't have as much potential if you wanted to mass them.
I want this out of the game the first chance possible.
EDIT: assuming this scales as APM goes up, like OP said.
On July 05 2010 19:13 Puosu wrote: Using the trick will not allow the void rays to charge up, they however can keep the charge if they've already charged up somewhere else. This pretty much balances this and makes it a trick that needs a lot of work for good execution, Blizzard has no reason to "fix" this before someone is able to use it in an imbalanced way.
We don't need patrol micro or mutalisk stacking when we have all kinds of new tricks. In a few years there will be so many cool things we can't even imagine of at this point.
Charging up on a refinery is "a lot of work?" I'm all for neat tricks coming from bugs, but if this stays in it's probably going to ruin the metagame.
On July 05 2010 18:59 Klive5ive wrote: If you charge the beams up first can you "faze" at full power? Sounds awesome though; DON'T change this Blizz.
If the unit is OP just increase the cost or something.
Yeah because 250-150 and 140s is not expensive enough......
Expense is relative to the power of the unit. If the unit is shown to be much more powerful than expected; either it needs to be less powerful or more expensive. This should be obvious.
On July 05 2010 19:55 niteReloaded wrote: wow I can't believe how many of you said you want this to remain in the game?
This is basically the identical situation that happened with reavers in SC1 where they were missing the cooldown when they unloaded from shuttle. Sure it sounds fun, but when every game involving P starts becoming Void Ray gayness it won't be fun anymore.
Plus, this is like many times more Imba than the reaver bug was, coz you can do it by simply spamming right click. Reaver+Shuttle at least demanded some more mechanical skills and didn't have as much potential if you wanted to mass them.
I want this out of the game the first chance possible.
There is nothing to suggest that this is imbalanced in any way. Leave it until there is any evidence of it being so......
Edit: Also there is people that have been aware of this for quite sometime while beta was still up.
since zerg players nowadays are relying solely on their queens to defend any early voidray shenanigans, considering its usually small # skirmishes (eg, 1-3 voids against 2-5 queens), this trick changes that dynamic maaaaassively, will be interesting to see how zergs have to respond now.
On July 05 2010 19:10 Grokken wrote: As soon as you have enough voidrays to one-shot workers you can kill the entire enemy mineral line in less than one second by shift-queuing.
I was thinking about the same thing. But the critical mass is quite high:
Against Probes and Drones, you need: - 8 VRs with +0 air weapons - 7 VRs with +1 air weapons - 6 VRs with +2 air weapons
Against SCVs, you need: - 9 VRs with +0 air weapons - 8 VRs with +1 air weapons - 7 VRs with +2 air weapons
Seems interesting, but we need to wait and see until the Beta is up again if it's truely OP or just a nice trick for good players.
On July 05 2010 18:50 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I like it! I want more of this stuff, this is what seperates the man from the boys. Keep it! I may regret it one day, playing Zerg but everything that involves extraclicks for an edge is a good thing imo.
I would say that demolish an entire army without him being able to do the slightest thing about is a bit more than an "edge", it's quite obvious a design flaw.
So I finished recording the useless trick I discovered earlier. Remember, it's literally useless.
Here's what happens.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
On July 05 2010 19:48 iEchoic wrote: Uh, this completely needs to be fixed immediately. You can easily write a macro that can click between two units as many times as the game physically allows in a second, insta-killing them. I haven't tried it, but if it truly scales with click speed, this would be a serious problem.
read the comments in this thread
I read the comments, the OP said it scales, I haven't seen proof either way yet.
Edit: above post was more helpful than this one, thanks.
come on dude just one post above yours theres a post with hezzerboy quoting himself saying that theres a certain max speed for this attack. meaning macro wont be able to instakill anything. plus like someone said macro is illegal anyways. This isnt World Of Warcraft.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
Woah, really strange bug. This needs to be fixed ASAP =/
On July 05 2010 19:11 Lazix wrote: Trick? More like exploit.
Have to agree. Seen soooo much of this kinda stuff in fps games. (Dolphin jumping anyone?) Some people will call it skills, most people will see it as an exploit because it gives a unit a damage potential that is waay beyond the specs that is set.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
What happens is that the projectiles switches target mid air, however when you brought in the sentry you put it to far away for the projectiles to be able to switch before impact. TBH this seems more like a feature than a bug, but perhaps it is.
^ Not true. I've done quite a bit more testing than shown in the video. Units that are not the same never get hit by the projectiles. Also it only looks as if the projectile changes direction in midair, that animation has absolutely nothing to do with it. Even if you only have the single Zealot there, it depends on when exactly you pick up the Zealot that determines the projectile animation. Sometimes it'll 'bounce' up to the dropship and sometimes it'll stay on course. It all depends on the time you pick up the Zealot, has nothing to do with damage done.
On July 05 2010 20:24 Geiko wrote: How on earth do you get that zealot to board the warp prism so fast ??
hotkey stalkers as 1 hotkey prism as 2 hit 1 - a, then click on the stalker and really fast hit 2 - right click. should be pretty easy for anyone to pull off in that kinda setting.
Anyway, to people complaining that its a ridiculous 'exploit'... i suppose you hated muta stacking in broodwar as well huh =\. This community as a whole is kinda funny, people complain about how the game doesnt have enough depth compared to bw and how theres no fun 'micro' aspects, then when we start discovering the things that will give the game depth, half of you scream exploit and demand it be removed... We have no idea how much this actually breaks the balance of pvt/pvz/pvp, and we wont know until a good player starts utilizing it in his play.
If VR can't do this while charged then it's no biggie. VR only become death rays when they charge up - I'd still rather charge on an extractor and then go to town without having to spend so much apm on this and keep macroing.
On July 05 2010 20:24 youngminii wrote: ^ Not true. I've done quite a bit more testing than shown in the video. Units that are not the same never get hit by the projectiles. Also it only looks as if the projectile changes direction in midair, that animation has absolutely nothing to do with it. Even if you only have the single Zealot there, it depends on when exactly you pick up the Zealot that determines the projectile animation. Sometimes it'll 'bounce' up to the dropship and sometimes it'll stay on course. It all depends on the time you pick up the Zealot, has nothing to do with damage done.
Awright, it still seems like a really weird thing to accidently program in.
If blizzard does "fix" this new discovery of the void ray, it would change the unit quite a bit if you think about it. Your taking advantage of how the void ray attacks or does its damage. If a fix is coming, its definitely not going to be in the form of "lol void rays don't do damage with their beam until 1 second after they start firing".. They may even have to do a complete redesign like they did in patch 8 if they think the technique is broken enough.
Personally, I'm all for these nice little perks that people figure out about specific units that make them stronger then what people believed. The OP found one for void rays, but its just as likely that tomorrow someone finds something like this for terran or zerg.
On July 05 2010 20:24 youngminii wrote: ^ Not true. I've done quite a bit more testing than shown in the video. Units that are not the same never get hit by the projectiles. Also it only looks as if the projectile changes direction in midair, that animation has absolutely nothing to do with it. Even if you only have the single Zealot there, it depends on when exactly you pick up the Zealot that determines the projectile animation. Sometimes it'll 'bounce' up to the dropship and sometimes it'll stay on course. It all depends on the time you pick up the Zealot, has nothing to do with damage done.
Sounds like the projectiles are assignated to a name (the destination of the projectiles) and when the unit is picked up by the prism, the damage is wrongly put on a unit with the same name as assignated to the projectiles. Very strange nonetheless to make such a misstake when programming that.
It sounds like the code might attempt to apply the damage using some form of the unit name and position. I.e. Damage Zealot at position 3,4. If the Zealot is in the void ray then the damage is not applied. However if there is another unit in close proximity with the same name that unit takes the damage instead.
If I'm correct then it MIGHT also be possible to get the wrong unit to take damage if they are moving quickly when the shot lands.
Another thought, have you tried units of the same armor type next to each other? Like a High Templar next to a Dark Templar.
On July 05 2010 20:00 Ftrunkz wrote: since zerg players nowadays are relying solely on their queens to defend any early voidray shenanigans, considering its usually small # skirmishes (eg, 1-3 voids against 2-5 queens), this trick changes that dynamic maaaaassively, will be interesting to see how zergs have to respond now.
I agree. I see at least some potential for this trick in early PvZ battles, voidray vs queens or voidray/phoenix vs queen/hydra. I have enough trouble with that as it is.
I would think it depends on how hard or micro intensive it is though. If it is nigh on impossible and very likely to fail, people will probably prefer just keeping their voidrays charged.
Pretty funny how these kind of things work sometimes. You try to design a unit made to take down massive units and you end up with something which kills a bunch of small units very fast
I'm not sure if this has been said already or not, but:
Doesn't this make fast Voidrays Vs. a Zerg extremely imbalanced?
As soon as they get 2 Voidrays, send them over to the Zerg base, charge up on rocks or whatever...and then go to town on drones and even queens. This 'trick' makes a second queen useless in a way, as they will drop at the same time now, even with healing.
I suppose you can still pop up spore crawlers...but even so, this does put the Zerg at a disadvantage rather quickly.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
Woah, really strange bug. This needs to be fixed ASAP =/
yeah, it needs to be at least on top of the "bugs to fixed list". this is extremly urgent!!!!! im so happy that you are not in the position to decide which bugs are fixed at what point. T_T
On July 05 2010 21:09 Klive5ive wrote: It sounds like the code might attempt to apply the damage using some form of the unit name and position. I.e. Damage Zealot at position 3,4. If the Zealot is in the void ray then the damage is not applied. However if there is another unit in close proximity with the same name that unit takes the damage instead.
If I'm correct then it MIGHT also be possible to get the wrong unit to take damage if they are moving quickly when the shot lands.
Another thought, have you tried units of the same armor type next to each other? Like a High Templar next to a Dark Templar.
It would imply that the code use only the position of the zealot when the shot start and if there isn't anything at this position when the shot lands then it extends the position, maybe in a circle with an increasing radius, until it finds a unit with the correct name, then it applies the damages to that unit, or until the radius hits a certain value, then the shot is lost.
I think this would apply to Sentries aswell. The only downside (that I can see) to doing the trick with the void rays is that their beams dont charge up.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
Hehe.. things that people discover when bored.. I must say that its a nice find As far as I can tell, its certainly a bug. How does it go when you put 2 observers a little bit further away from eachother?
really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
Yeah, it always makes me smile when someone finds something like this. There have been a few discoveries of these little mistakes, I just hope that Blizzard is smart enough to realize that BW would've been awful without it's bugs so they'll leave them in in SC2.
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
That bug should be fixed. There is no reason for it. We shouldn't discriminate between similar units. That is obviously a bad bug. If you micro properly you should be rewarded. As a result, I would keep the VR bug in because there is an opportunity cost (it takes heavy focus).
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
Agreed. This doesn't seem to massively change any dynamics; instead, it adds a bit of variety by forcing players to use more than one kind of unit in their dropships.
youngminii mentioned he did fairly extensive testing, so I would assume he tried more than one kind of attacking unit and this doesn't apply to just stalkers. I hope. It's a very small bug otherwise.
VRs have no cooldown when they're charged, so no, not really. Technically players already knew about this and would keep changing targets or have their own VRs attack one another to keep their full charge as it does more damage. However, we didn't really know the differential of the output (two hydras dying compared to the one).
I'd expect this patched mainly not because of balance but because it's highly unintuitive. The expected behavior here is clearly that switching your target constantly divides the damage evenly among the targets, instead of doing full damage to all targets.
Plus, double damage output *is* huge. If voidrays are rebalanced for this trick, they'll become very underpowered without it. If they're balanced without the trick, they're overpowered with it (in the hands of a good player).
Edit: For further emphasis, imagine marines or dragoons in BW always firing instantly every time you change their target (effectively increasing their attack speed dramatically). That would be broken, right? I don't see how this is any different.
Who wanna bet that this can be done with the "ice cubes machine" too? Er... I meant the sentry. I'm gonna test this evening.
EDIT
On July 05 2010 21:36 divinesage wrote: Speaking of which, this should apply to Sentries as well right? Or do sentries use a different mechanic for their attacks?
On July 05 2010 21:38 Philip2110 wrote: I think this would apply to Sentries aswell. The only downside (that I can see) to doing the trick with the void rays is that their beams dont charge up.
On July 05 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
Surely this means we cant micro such as this:
Because the other units will take the damage. that seems broken to me?
Cant wait to go to town on queens with this. I cant remember tho, does two rays kill two queens if you micro back the hurt one while the first one charges up? Does two rays win vs two queens with this?
Gonna have to try this out.
Also I dont think this CAN be changed without having serius impact on the void ray. Isnt this ability a consequence of moving and shooting at the same time? Thats one of the great things about the ray and if they removed the insta damage they would at the same time remove its moving shot wouldnt they?
Someone has to test this on sentries aswell, but if im not wrong sentries has a delay before damage and thats also the reason why they dont move shot?
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
That bug should be fixed. There is no reason for it. We shouldn't discriminate between similar units. That is obviously a bad bug. If you micro properly you should be rewarded. As a result, I would keep the VR bug in because there is an opportunity cost (it takes heavy focus).
ah maybe i didnt make myself clear fazing i like alot and want to keep it. its so similar to a halo 2 bug which i noticed that u melee attacked faster if u switched weapon between every attack. discovered that bug with my friends and i always won the melee battles :D its so awesome with bugs that encourage micro
altough im almost 100% sure this will get removed by blizzard. its clearly imbalanced. imagine just loading full attack vs a supply then 5 stimmed marines come and u can own them in 1-2 seconds when normally u would die
the dropship part is something i dislike and want to be changed but as a player im very happy someone pointed it out to me because it could be critical when harassing
On July 05 2010 20:24 Geiko wrote: How on earth do you get that zealot to board the warp prism so fast ??
hotkey stalkers as 1 hotkey prism as 2 hit 1 - a, then click on the stalker and really fast hit 2 - right click. should be pretty easy for anyone to pull off in that kinda setting.
Anyway, to people complaining that its a ridiculous 'exploit'... i suppose you hated muta stacking in broodwar as well huh =\. This community as a whole is kinda funny, people complain about how the game doesnt have enough depth compared to bw and how theres no fun 'micro' aspects, then when we start discovering the things that will give the game depth, half of you scream exploit and demand it be removed... We have no idea how much this actually breaks the balance of pvt/pvz/pvp, and we wont know until a good player starts utilizing it in his play.
Exactly....ppl whine there's no micro in SC2 when stuff like muta stacking in BW was based on bugs in the first place. Now they want this removed without even trying it in game to see if its really imbalanced. Contradict much?
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
That bug should be fixed. There is no reason for it. We shouldn't discriminate between similar units. That is obviously a bad bug. If you micro properly you should be rewarded. As a result, I would keep the VR bug in because there is an opportunity cost (it takes heavy focus).
ah maybe i didnt make myself clear fazing i like alot and want to keep it. its so similar to a halo 2 bug which i noticed that u melee attacked faster if u switched weapon between every attack. discovered that bug with my friends and i always won the melee battles :D its so awesome with bugs that encourage micro
altough im almost 100% sure this will get removed by blizzard. its clearly imbalanced. imagine just loading full attack vs a supply then 5 stimmed marines come and u can own them in 1-2 seconds when normally u would die
the dropship part is something i dislike and want to be changed but as a player im very happy someone pointed it out to me because it could be critical when harassing
Im pretty sure charged rays has a delay when switching between targets, it just doesnt wanna let go, so if this is only non charged rays would you still dislike it? Also who doesnt hate cs:source because you cant insta silencer with double q tap +duck hop, muta stacking, voidray "fazing"? all good games needs this kinda stuff
Edit: dont mean dislike, I meant think blizz will remove
On July 05 2010 21:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
That bug should be fixed. There is no reason for it. We shouldn't discriminate between similar units. That is obviously a bad bug. If you micro properly you should be rewarded. As a result, I would keep the VR bug in because there is an opportunity cost (it takes heavy focus).
ah maybe i didnt make myself clear fazing i like alot and want to keep it. its so similar to a halo 2 bug which i noticed that u melee attacked faster if u switched weapon between every attack. discovered that bug with my friends and i always won the melee battles :D its so awesome with bugs that encourage micro
altough im almost 100% sure this will get removed by blizzard. its clearly imbalanced. imagine just loading full attack vs a supply then 5 stimmed marines come and u can own them in 1-2 seconds when normally u would die
the dropship part is something i dislike and want to be changed but as a player im very happy someone pointed it out to me because it could be critical when harassing
Im pretty sure charged rays has a delay when switching between targets, it just doesnt wanna let go, so if this is only non charged rays would you still dislike it? Also who doesnt hate cs:source because you cant insta silencer with double q tap +duck hop, muta stacking, voidray "fazing"? all good games needs this kinda stuff
Edit: dont mean dislike, I meant think blizz will remove
i said i like the voidray but dislike the dropship bug. changing so charged voidrays cant do the "fazing" would be a very good call so only uncharged could do this micro. this would be absolutely amazing and wouldnt break balance at all
edit: saw ur edit now, blizzard would probably not remove it if fazing only worked for uncharged voidrays seeing how uncharged voidrays do like 2 dmg and u gotta spam like a crazy person to make this work. after all only the best of the best players would be able to take use of this. even if ur voidrays could spam like this marines would still beat them, queen already got problem vs them and in battles u wouldnt have apm to do this, so i really dont think that would be a good call by blizzard to disallow fazing for uncharged voidrays
Agree, this kind of stuff is lacking yet necessary. The more micro the merrier and honestly - if they can fix this so you can only "faze" (really like that =D) when uncharged I don't see this being imba.
Then again I lack the understanding of the gamemechanics to predict if it is even possible to make fazinh impossible when charged whilst leaving the uncharged rays unaffected.
Don't remove, "balance the bug" (interesting concept, Morrow ^^).
This reminds me of me killing off workers 1v1 by abusing the SCV-attack-spamming which made them attack that little bit faster. =)
SB
edit:
as to the dropship thingy - I think this sucks, dropship micro is very cool and very rare and this makes it even harder.
On July 05 2010 22:39 SexyBimbo wrote: Agree, this kind of stuff is lacking yet necessary. The more micro the merrier and honestly - if they can fix this so you can only "faze" (really like that =D) when uncharged I don't see this being imba.
Then again I lack the understanding of the gamemechanics to predict if it is even possible to make fazinh impossible when charged whilst leaving the uncharged rays unaffected.
Don't remove, "balance the bug" (interesting concept, Morrow ^^).
This reminds me of me killing off workers 1v1 by abusing the SCV-attack-spamming which made them attack that little bit faster. =)
SB
ye dude everything is possible with the editor :D
in bw u could see it as bugs or features, half glass full or half glass empty. why remove it if its imba when u can balance it?
they should bring back the scv bug, atm scvs are so damn weak and proxi gates are so hard to kill off with scvs :D muta stack is something that i wanted at start, but after beta stage 1 i realized how thor heavy terrans are nowadays and how non-existent mutas are in pvz that it would only harm the game without much to gain
but all and all i definitely agree with the ppl who say bugs improve the game. if each units weapon works differently which sc1 is (and sc2 isnt) then it takes alot longer time to learn and master while low level players cant even notice the difference. if u were a high level sc1 player u would know what i talk about when i say that all units kite differently, target differently and does everything in an unique way. sc2 all units think the same, attack the same, behave the same and no units got special features unlike the voidray or the phoenix :d
On July 05 2010 22:39 SexyBimbo wrote: Agree, this kind of stuff is lacking yet necessary. The more micro the merrier and honestly - if they can fix this so you can only "faze" (really like that =D) when uncharged I don't see this being imba.
Then again I lack the understanding of the gamemechanics to predict if it is even possible to make fazinh impossible when charged whilst leaving the uncharged rays unaffected.
Don't remove, "balance the bug" (interesting concept, Morrow ^^).
This reminds me of me killing off workers 1v1 by abusing the SCV-attack-spamming which made them attack that little bit faster. =)
SB
ye dude everything is possible with the editor :D
in bw u could see it as bugs or features, half glass full or half glass empty. why remove it if its imba when u can balance it?
they should bring back the scv bug, atm scvs are so damn weak and proxi gates are so hard to kill off with scvs :D muta stack is something that i wanted at start, but after beta stage 1 i realized how thor heavy terrans are nowadays and how non-existent mutas are in pvz that it would only harm the game without much to gain
On July 05 2010 22:39 SexyBimbo wrote: Agree, this kind of stuff is lacking yet necessary. The more micro the merrier and honestly - if they can fix this so you can only "faze" (really like that =D) when uncharged I don't see this being imba.
Then again I lack the understanding of the gamemechanics to predict if it is even possible to make fazinh impossible when charged whilst leaving the uncharged rays unaffected.
Don't remove, "balance the bug" (interesting concept, Morrow ^^).
This reminds me of me killing off workers 1v1 by abusing the SCV-attack-spamming which made them attack that little bit faster. =)
SB
ye dude everything is possible with the editor :D
in bw u could see it as bugs or features, half glass full or half glass empty. why remove it if its imba when u can balance it?
they should bring back the scv bug, atm scvs are so damn weak and proxi gates are so hard to kill off with scvs :D muta stack is something that i wanted at start, but after beta stage 1 i realized how thor heavy terrans are nowadays and how non-existent mutas are in pvz that it would only harm the game without much to gain
sure you can have that if they nerf EMP :D
i wouldnt mind the emp projectile being faster. atm a monkey could emp a toss army. projectile like vessel emp would be awesome, although they would have to nerf feedback then but this is offtopic. im gonna try out this fazing some vs some computer units on the editor
On July 05 2010 19:52 youngminii wrote: The damage done by this trick does not scale with the speed of your clicking.
What's actually happening is that the attack is being 'split' into two, targetting the two hydras. The problem is, when it's 'split' the damage itself isn't being split so it deals full damage to the two hydras. But it only attacks them both once per 0.6 seconds (the cooldown).
So while it still does twice the amount of damage it should be doing, it most certainly does not scale with click speed. That's why all three hydras die at the same time in the video.
Is this it?
Isn't it that the void rays are doing their initial damage over and over again for as fast as they change targets?
On July 05 2010 22:39 SexyBimbo wrote: Agree, this kind of stuff is lacking yet necessary. The more micro the merrier and honestly - if they can fix this so you can only "faze" (really like that =D) when uncharged I don't see this being imba.
Then again I lack the understanding of the gamemechanics to predict if it is even possible to make fazinh impossible when charged whilst leaving the uncharged rays unaffected.
Don't remove, "balance the bug" (interesting concept, Morrow ^^).
This reminds me of me killing off workers 1v1 by abusing the SCV-attack-spamming which made them attack that little bit faster. =)
SB
ye dude everything is possible with the editor :D
in bw u could see it as bugs or features, half glass full or half glass empty. why remove it if its imba when u can balance it?
they should bring back the scv bug, atm scvs are so damn weak and proxi gates are so hard to kill off with scvs :D muta stack is something that i wanted at start, but after beta stage 1 i realized how thor heavy terrans are nowadays and how non-existent mutas are in pvz that it would only harm the game without much to gain
sure you can have that if they nerf EMP :D
i wouldnt mind the emp projectile being slower. atm a monkey could emp a toss army. projectile like vessel emp would be awesome, although they would have to nerf feedback then but this is offtopic. im gonna try out this fazing some vs some computer units on the editor
Fixed. I also must agree that EMP is currently pretty bland and needs some work.
On July 05 2010 23:07 [RB]Black wrote: imagine this early game on queens.. 2 queens no longer blocks voids as effectively...
So this can be gamebreaking in PvZ :/
The key to combatting this is outmicroing your opponent. If the void ray accidentally charges to stage 2 for instance, they can no longer use this technique. Also, keeping your queens far apart makes this much harder to accomplish.
On July 05 2010 19:52 youngminii wrote: The damage done by this trick does not scale with the speed of your clicking.
What's actually happening is that the attack is being 'split' into two, targetting the two hydras. The problem is, when it's 'split' the damage itself isn't being split so it deals full damage to the two hydras. But it only attacks them both once per 0.6 seconds (the cooldown).
So while it still does twice the amount of damage it should be doing, it most certainly does not scale with click speed. That's why all three hydras die at the same time in the video.
Is this it?
Isn't it that the void rays are doing their initial damage over and over again for as fast as they change targets?
he just took a post to explain it wasn't that. their attack doesn't repeatedly restart, it just switches target mid attack and both units recieve the damage tick.
On July 05 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:51 MorroW wrote: really awesome find. i hope they wont remove this bug because i encourage bugs to 100% to improve your micro! if its too imba then nerf the bug but dont remove it :d
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
nono thats not useless, thats a really great find that i will remember for sure when i play! now i know that i cant drop 2 tanks from medivac and dodge micro against marauders with 2 tanks out at the same time, or does this only work like this for stalkers?
Testing vs small groups of Hydras doesn't account for lost DPS by not charging up. Please repeat the test with 2 groups of 3+ Ultras so we can get a good comparison.
On July 05 2010 19:52 youngminii wrote: The damage done by this trick does not scale with the speed of your clicking.
What's actually happening is that the attack is being 'split' into two, targetting the two hydras. The problem is, when it's 'split' the damage itself isn't being split so it deals full damage to the two hydras. But it only attacks them both once per 0.6 seconds (the cooldown).
So while it still does twice the amount of damage it should be doing, it most certainly does not scale with click speed. That's why all three hydras die at the same time in the video.
Wouldn't this mean that with every additional unit the enemy has, the potential damage increase of this method increases, too? So if you managed to click 4 Units in those 0.6s, wouldn't all of them take damage, followed by a second portion after the first 0.6s are over and you start a new "round" of clicks?
This would obviously only work if it isn't the Attack, that is splitted, but the COOLDOWN of its damage TICK on every unit.
This definitely does not work for void-rays, however, has anybody thought about or tested Sentries? I have a feeling they might not work as advertised...
edit: also... voidray has no graphical cool down, but it does have a damage cool down, damage is not constant overtime but comes in quick bursts overtime...
instead of switching targets with the voidray, couldn't you just give it the stop command and then tell it to attack since your just abusing the initial damage tick. It would probably be faster to micro then clicking between multiple targets.
I just want to remind all the imba-criers in this thread how easy it is to counter this. All you need to do is keep your units moving. You can either patrol+hold spam to keep them spread while moving around, or have one half standing+shooting and the other moving in alteration. That makes it almost impossible to spam click your units and should not allow all void rays to get into range for trick 2. Problem solved?
The shift-queueing explains why Void Rays become so ridiculously strong once you have a TON of them - their attack cooldown decreases when they can one-shot everything.
This is actually a pretty cool find, Faze! Can't wait to try it out on the noob players on b.net 2.0 ;P Also, If no one else calls if Fazing, I certainly will! =D
I can imagine every toss playing twilight fortress mass VRs with attack upgrades and melt any incoming force instantly while thinking how pro he is at microing. Actually mass upgraded VRs melt hydras and vikings even without this micro so long you have enough so that even A-attack instantly kills a unit, I've seen it happen, but didn't understood why it only worked sometimes until now.
On July 06 2010 00:27 mufin wrote: instead of switching targets with the voidray, couldn't you just give it the stop command and then tell it to attack since your just abusing the initial damage tick. It would probably be faster to micro then clicking between multiple targets.
tested that doesnt work, it has to switch target or go out of range or w/e because voidrays will automatically attack the target even if u tell it to move or hold pos or stop etc. it has autoattack so clicking stop only stops the voidray but the actual weapon is uncontrollable when it comes to stopping
Yeah, a friend of mine was doing this to wipe out huge MMM balls almost instantly, and got to diamond, without ever having played RTS before, in like, a couple of weeks.
You did good presentation and emphasis on how to use it in the most imba way, so: well done!
it obviously works best vs mm balls, because when u kill the marines fast, u basically won the battle.
but i still like the trick with moving charged voids a bit more. i often use them as part of my main army instead for some seperate ninja base attack and i got the moving technique well working for me now. i charge up at some rocks or some of my buildings (when u only got 2 voids, u can also use a proxy pylon nearby) and then move all across the map with charged voids by always attacking some random unit of mine. works pretty well once u got the timing, it only gets pretty hard when u still want to do some other stuff in between like warping in reinforcements. but if u have the apm, it's relatively easy to perform.
AND REMEMBER: the target switching does not work at all for charged voids
and i really like how more and more of these bugs?/features come to surface to make the game more interesting to maybe reach bw level at some point.
A unit can dodge projectiles if it is picked up by a Warp Prism/Medivac/Overlord, you should know that. Now I do this with a Zealot and some Stalkers. As expected, the Zealot takes no damage. Then I put a second Zealot next to the first Zealot. When I repeat the experiment, the second Zealot takes all the damage.
Now I take away the Zealot and bring in a Sentry so that there's a Sentry and a Zealot next to each other. I repeat the experiment and what do you know? None of them take damage. How odd. I take away the remaining Zealot and bring in a second Sentry. Repeat the experiment, the second Sentry takes the damage.
I then bring in a group of Zealots and try the experiment. It seems as if the closest (don't quote me on this) Zealot next to the one that was targeted/picked up takes the damage.
Conclusion: For some reason, only when two or more of the same units are next to each other, the damage that was dodged by the targeted unit is taken by the like unit next to it.
If someone could further test this out and explain the mechanics behind it, I'd be thankful. It's just something I found while doing some bored testing because of the down beta
I'm curious if anyone tested if an enemy unit of the same type as the target standing next to the target takes damage? For instance we know zealot bombing tanks no longer works efficiently thanks to the lack of overkill, but what about tank bombing tanks, or a number of other possible albeit slightly ridiculous situations?
did some testing vs 2 marine with fazing Life+shields: 196 Damage dealt: 90 without fazing Life+shields: 154 Damage dealt: 90
vs 3 marine with fazing Life+shields: 118 Damage dealt: 135 without fazing Life+shields: 70 Damage dealt: 135
vs 4 marine with fazing Life+shields: 34 Damage dealt: 180 without fazing i lost Damage dealt: 130
normal attack gave 1-2 attacks per second fazing gave 3-5 attacks per second
clearly its effective enough to start getting used on higher levels at the same time its not critical enough to remove it or nerf it. you cant use it when the beam is on the second stage
Tried another simple situation with void rays against queens. 2queens beat 1 void ray both with and without fazing. 3 queens beats 2 voids without faze. 2 voids can beat 3queens with faze.
On a more serious note though, this is an excellent discovery, way to go OP. I really like it cause it puts the micro back in micro and it kinda reminds me of BW as well (glitches in BW were so cool, weren't they).
I'm not sure how over powered this would turn out to be but somehow I doubt Blizzard will leave it in the game once they find out...
The Fazing thing is so awesome. I'd like to see some top protoss players like Tester and WhiteRa pull it off. However, it seems very APM intensive to macro along with it, so it might take some time for them to use it.
You should also add the trick to charge Void Rays off of each other without taking damage.
On July 06 2010 03:06 kNyTTyM wrote: Tried another simple situation with void rays against queens. 2queens beat 1 void ray both with and without fazing. 3 queens beats 2 voids without faze. 2 voids can beat 3queens with faze.
I'm assuming this is without transfusions / queen micro?
On July 06 2010 03:06 kNyTTyM wrote: Tried another simple situation with void rays against queens. 2queens beat 1 void ray both with and without fazing. 3 queens beats 2 voids without faze. 2 voids can beat 3queens with faze.
I'm assuming this is without transfusions / queen micro?
Yep no transfusion since I assumed that there is a period where you won't have one. First 2 queens should be spawning larva and creep tumor. 3rd shouldn't have enough time to gain 50 energy. That is unless you scouted it which would change everything.
I didn't need to micro in first scenario and second I couldn't because fazing required complete attention
On July 06 2010 03:13 -orb- wrote: The first one is ridiculous but the second one would be the same with many other units like marines iirc...
was gonna ask this, but yeah i think target fire for any unit would yield quicker results
This is much faster then any other unit since the void ray's damage is calculated instantly. With marines, after they fired on a unit to kill it, they'd have to fire again at the next unit, with a little delay since they don't attack instantly. As long as the time it takes to kill a unit is less then the 'tick time' of the game, you will essentially be doing twice or more times the damage.
Ummm... focus firing? The fazing thing is ridiculous though.
Has anyone tried charging the Void Rays on each other before reaching the enemy? So like, 8 uncharged Void Rays or 7 half charged, 1 almost dead no charge Void Ray.
On July 06 2010 03:13 -orb- wrote: The first one is ridiculous but the second one would be the same with many other units like marines iirc...
was gonna ask this, but yeah i think target fire for any unit would yield quicker results
When the enemy is shooting back, it makes even more sense to target fire because with every kill you are reducing the total DPS taken by your army - resulting in less dead units and therefore more DPS. However, from a mathematical standpoint it isn't any faster to target fire units if they aren't shooting back, so the increased speed is 100% due to the nature of the Void Ray's instant attack.
Example Unit A does 10 DPS 8 x Unit A = 80 DPS
Now, lets say we put this 80 DPS army against 8 inanimate enemies, each with 100 health.
If we split the damage evenly between all 8, each enemy will take 10 seconds to die. They will all die at the same time, resulting in a total fight time of 10 seconds.
If we target fire, each enemy will die in 1.25 seconds. 1.25 x 8 = 10 seconds.
That is calculating for perfect switch time (which there isn't) and perfectly consistent damage over time (which there isn't).
So in fact, it would be quicker to perfectly split DPS if the enemy was stationary / not fighting back. Obviously when you harass you want to take what you can get, and unless you are against someone terrible they are going to move their workers - so it makes sense to target fire. I'm just trying to illustrate that the increased damage is directly due to a mechanic of the Void Ray
On July 06 2010 03:47 EssayReader wrote: Nice, but if you don't want it fixed for awhile, you don't show it, esp. on famous forums like these, BEFORE the Beta is released again lol.
On July 06 2010 03:38 StormsInJuly wrote: A charged ray kills 2 queens with this trick right? (Does a charged ray kill 2 queens without fazing??? I don't know)
Doesn't work if the Void Ray is charged since it doesn't do any damage when you alter fast between targets.
So I doubt blizzard will take this trick out since it has pretty limited uses. Voids actually do worse against stalkers when using this trick and get decimated by hydralisk regardless of micro. It's an interesting harass technique and marine killer which I intend to use later on.
On July 06 2010 00:33 lazyo wrote: I just want to remind all the imba-criers in this thread how easy it is to counter this. All you need to do is keep your units moving. You can either patrol+hold spam to keep them spread while moving around, or have one half standing+shooting and the other moving in alteration. That makes it almost impossible to spam click your units and should not allow all void rays to get into range for trick 2. Problem solved?
Your solution is to this is to move your units around? As far as I know only the phoenix can shoot while moving...
I don't think this technique will be any bigger deal when the Battle.net 2.0 latency kicks in.
On July 06 2010 00:33 lazyo wrote: I just want to remind all the imba-criers in this thread how easy it is to counter this. All you need to do is keep your units moving. You can either patrol+hold spam to keep them spread while moving around, or have one half standing+shooting and the other moving in alteration. That makes it almost impossible to spam click your units and should not allow all void rays to get into range for trick 2. Problem solved?
Your solution is to this is to move your units around? As far as I know only the phoenix can shoot while moving...
I don't think this technique will be any bigger deal when the Battle.net 2.0 latency kicks in.
"I like this trick so much, that I'm going to call it "Fazing". Don't fix this Blizzard. I know it doesn't make sense, I just want something named after me. In fact, I'm going to become a world famous caster just so I can one day call this "Fazing" (if anyone ever uses it)." Lamest paragraph ever lol.
cool trick though! this needs to be fixed asap tho thats obviously overpowered
i absolutely hate void rays now, and this trick just makes them worse.
they were originally supposed to be an anti-big unit/structure unit. now, they just do massive damage to pretty much anything on the battlefield. sure, they're expensive, but the fact that they do so much damage to everything means that they add absolutely nothing to strategy.
it wasn't bad when a group of small units (hydras/marines) could pretty quickly destroy them, but now they tear through small units as easily as the larger/armored ones.
i would much rather see phoenix/void rays used more in combination. maybe if void rays went back to an anti-armored role, while phoenixes were somehow improved so that they were better with the light/small antiair units. as it stands, phoenix are only really good for sniping casters/lifting terran mech/harassing workers.
feel free to disagree with any and all of these opinions, it just seems to me like a unit that can basically kill with a click is bad for the game in general
This must have been changed in a patch because I tested this a while back and there was almost a full second delay before void rays would start doing damage. Maybe it's different when you change targets from when you move. I know I tried doing a trick where you move your void rays, tell them to attack each other, and then immediately move them again and they'd start their attack animation and thus keep their charge but they would do no damage.
On July 06 2010 04:31 Roniii wrote: "I like this trick so much, that I'm going to call it "Fazing". Don't fix this Blizzard. I know it doesn't make sense, I just want something named after me. In fact, I'm going to become a world famous caster just so I can one day call this "Fazing" (if anyone ever uses it)." Lamest paragraph ever lol.
I'm even more lame than this paragraph would suggest!
On July 06 2010 04:36 -orb- wrote: This must have been changed in a patch because I tested this a while back and there was almost a full second delay before void rays would start doing damage. Maybe it's different when you change targets from when you move. I know I tried doing a trick where you move your void rays, tell them to attack each other, and then immediately move them again and they'd start their attack animation and thus keep their charge but they would do no damage.
Yes you can still do the trick to keep the rays charged while moving because the charged attack does have a delay while the uncharged attack does not. To all the other people who were still wondering why you can't do the "fazing" when they are charged, it's because of this delay on the charged attack.
On July 06 2010 04:31 scojac wrote: i absolutely hate void rays now, and this trick just makes them worse.
they were originally supposed to be an anti-big unit/structure unit. now, they just do massive damage to pretty much anything on the battlefield. sure, they're expensive, but the fact that they do so much damage to everything means that they add absolutely nothing to strategy.
it wasn't bad when a group of small units (hydras/marines) could pretty quickly destroy them, but now they tear through small units as easily as the larger/armored ones.
i would much rather see phoenix/void rays used more in combination. maybe if void rays went back to an anti-armored role, while phoenixes were somehow improved so that they were better with the light/small antiair units. as it stands, phoenix are only really good for sniping casters/lifting terran mech/harassing workers.
feel free to disagree with any and all of these opinions, it just seems to me like a unit that can basically kill with a click is bad for the game in general
You need to remember that this "fazing" is a TRICK like you said. Tricks don't win you games, strategies do.
Also, void rays are quite easy to kill. Coming from a Terran player, stimmed marines will murder voids rays. Ghosts will make it way easier as well. If they mass void rays, you mass marines. I've done several tests using marines vs void rays where both armies have the same mineral count, but the void ray army needs a lot more gas.
If you ever get surprised by a mass void ray army, you're not scouting properly. You'll have ample time to build a mass marine army with your reactored raxs unless the toss has like 8 stargates pumping out voids.
Not to mention that getting armor for marines will cut the Voids damage output by a lot. According to liquipedia, they do 5 dmg in 13 attacks over 7.2 secs until they reach level three beams. (5 x 13 = 65) Having 2 armor will almost cut their damage in half. (5 - 2 = 3 x 13 = 36)
btw, I am not trying to target you're post scojac but i just wanted to point out that void rays doesn't equal win.
Well, at first glance, (especially as a zerg-preferring player, though I do play random quite a bit and might benefit from such an exploi..er,trick? :p ), I cried,"Patch this please!!!" to the cosmos (well, my living room that is :D), but started reading posts.
Apparently you guys seem to think this doesn't allow VRs to charge up while switching targets back and forth, but I wonder what the upper limit is, i.e., how many units does it take for letting the charge go up on single units (typical method before this discovery) to kill more units faster than doing this switching w/o charging. It seems that the number of clicks/minute required will approach infinity as the unit count increases, thus the maximum dexterity of the player would create an upper limit and of course the situation changes depending upon the unit-type of the VR's target. Furthermore, the argument can be made that microing helps somewhat, but it makes your macro slow down, thus a potential balancing factor...
Idk though, this may not be imba, but we shall see... I suspect VR's will always be the whipping boy for many-a-nerf-bat, not that they haven't been already.
Anywhos, nice to know, I'll remember this and get out the infestors with neural implants :p hehe
The attack queue thing is in no way unique to void rays. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that when you focus fire and queue things up you'll always kill shit faster than just 1a2a3a...that's not even an issue. You can do the same thing with pretty much any ranged unit.
The first trick is pretty interesting though. However, it will not work with charged void rays as people have already said and this trick seems to be pretty micro-intensive. In the early game where there's a lot less stuff going on it will probably be pretty powerful, but as the game moves to mid-late I doubt this trick will see much use, except at the progamer level when they all have like 300+ apm. Even then, I can't see this becoming so broken as to be needed to be fixed. I feel like it's almost like muta stacking from BW in that you're essentially overriding the default behavior in order to deal much more damage in bursts.
I think it's a neat trick which could be used effectively to boost micro output, but I think there are a few situations where this might be imba... Basically, any void ray rush is going to destroy with this method. If two void rays can kill 3 queens, Zerg basically has to rush evo and drop 4+ spore crawlers at main/expo to defend. Same thing with Terran, they have to either rush for turrets or get a fast ghost since one void ray can kill 4 marines with shield and stim. Like I said though, I haven't tested this and it might very well not be imba, but its equally possible that it can end up winning free games for noobs who know how to A-click different things.
Personally, I think it is fine in the late game, it's just the early game i'm worried about. If it turns out to be completely balanced and a little micro will hold it off i'm completely fine with leaving it in.
On July 06 2010 00:33 lazyo wrote: I just want to remind all the imba-criers in this thread how easy it is to counter this. All you need to do is keep your units moving. You can either patrol+hold spam to keep them spread while moving around, or have one half standing+shooting and the other moving in alteration. That makes it almost impossible to spam click your units and should not allow all void rays to get into range for trick 2. Problem solved?
Your solution is to this is to move your units around? As far as I know only the phoenix can shoot while moving...
I don't think this technique will be any bigger deal when the Battle.net 2.0 latency kicks in.
You spread the marines and it becomes much more difficult to alternate between targets thus limiting the effectiveness of the fast fire.
edit: People this is not imbalanced. The number of situations where this is effective is very limited and can be dealt with pretty easily.
On July 06 2010 05:34 Cryptic wrote: I think it's a neat trick which could be used effectively to boost micro output, but I think there are a few situations where this might be imba... Basically, any void ray rush is going to destroy with this method. If two void rays can kill 3 queens, Zerg basically has to rush evo and drop 4+ spore crawlers at main/expo to defend. Same thing with Terran, they have to either rush for turrets or get a fast ghost since one void ray can kill 4 marines with shield and stim. Like I said though, I haven't tested this and it might very well not be imba, but its equally possible that it can end up winning free games for noobs who know how to A-click different things.
Personally, I think it is fine in the late game, it's just the early game i'm worried about. If it turns out to be completely balanced and a little micro will hold it off i'm completely fine with leaving it in.
3 queens with a transfuse will win easily so if you are that worried, make a 3rd queen early for the energy and don't drop an extra creep tumor.
No one said anything about stim. Which strategies are now ruined by the fact that 4 marines lose to a microed void ray? 1/1/1 still gets a viking to kite and marine ghost will still severely outnumbers voids.
On July 06 2010 05:23 Playguuu wrote: Yes, this is because the voidray damage is front loaded. I expect this to change though, like they did with the colossus micro.
Collosus now deal damage the second the sound (and beams) appear, all they did with the collosus is make the damage happen at the same time as the visuals, unlike previously where units would take damage, THEN be hit by the beams. which everyone can agree makes no sense.
Man random micro is awesome. :D Brood Lords are the only air unit that can truly hold position micro to fire while never stopping. mutas are a close 2nd and banshees come in third with a half second delay.
i bet all the toss players are like "leave it blizz, its cool ppl will find a way to deal w/ it eventually... thats part of the game guys comon."
and all the T's and Z's are like "holy shit... all my workers shift queued to death in 10 seconds how is that fair? and toss got obs so they can prepare the queue beforehand and just watch the destruction T.T fix pleaseeeeee"
On July 05 2010 18:50 UnburrowedLurker wrote: Cool. I kind of hope they don't patch it. In a way, its actually balanced. You need at least two units to do it, and they wont charge up if you faze, as opposed to if you just leave them focusing.
...they wont charge, right? o_O
What... your explanation on needing to units or whatever has little to relevance on whether it's balanced or not.
On July 06 2010 05:51 Puremiss wrote: i bet all the toss players are like "leave it blizz, its cool ppl will find a way to deal w/ it eventually... thats part of the game guys comon."
and all the T's and Z's are like "holy shit... all my workers shift queued to death in 10 seconds how is that fair? and toss got obs so they can prepare the queue beforehand and just watch the destruction T.T fix pleaseeeeee"
im in the T/Z camp
Why do they need to find ways to deal with it? The current strategies already can beat microed void rays just fine. TvP: Marine ghost will still severely outnumber void rays. Having only 4 marines against a void ray build even before this trick was a recipe for loss. 1/1/1 will still get a viking to kite and marines to clean up. It is also easy to pick out the marines being shot and run back if you really feel the need. Woot defeating micro with micro
ZvP: Extra queen slightly earlier for transfusion energy. Again just continue queens until you get hydralisks like you did before.
For the later game concerns, how many games have you played where protoss has 8 void rays running around? You run workers away at the sight of the voids just like before. If he could spare the attention to queue attack a ton of workers then you should be attentive enough to grab them all and right click away.
On July 06 2010 05:51 Puremiss wrote: i bet all the toss players are like "leave it blizz, its cool ppl will find a way to deal w/ it eventually... thats part of the game guys comon."
and all the T's and Z's are like "holy shit... all my workers shift queued to death in 10 seconds how is that fair? and toss got obs so they can prepare the queue beforehand and just watch the destruction T.T fix pleaseeeeee"
im in the T/Z camp
when u let someone get 8 voids to oneshot your wokers, its your own fault when u couldnt finish him so far. and ye just spend 200 more gas on getting an obs... sure
i never read more bs srsly, what about this:
OMG HE DROPPED 4 TEMPLAR IN MY MINERAL LINE AND ALL WORKERS DEAD IN 3 SECS!111111111111 EVEN BETTER THAN 8 VOIDS
The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
On July 06 2010 04:30 Lucius2 wrote: JUST TEST IT. IT DOES FUCKIN NOT WORK WITH CHARGED VOID RAYS
I think it doesn't work either, but this all-caps response is unacceptable. Better would be posting a replay / video of you testing it, or simply saying that you tested it yourself and it didn't work. Regardless, do not post like this on Teamliquid.
On July 06 2010 04:31 scojac wrote: i absolutely hate void rays now, and this trick just makes them worse.
they were originally supposed to be an anti-big unit/structure unit. now, they just do massive damage to pretty much anything on the battlefield. sure, they're expensive, but the fact that they do so much damage to everything means that they add absolutely nothing to strategy.
it wasn't bad when a group of small units (hydras/marines) could pretty quickly destroy them, but now they tear through small units as easily as the larger/armored ones.
i would much rather see phoenix/void rays used more in combination. maybe if void rays went back to an anti-armored role, while phoenixes were somehow improved so that they were better with the light/small antiair units. as it stands, phoenix are only really good for sniping casters/lifting terran mech/harassing workers.
feel free to disagree with any and all of these opinions, it just seems to me like a unit that can basically kill with a click is bad for the game in general
You need to remember that this "fazing" is a TRICK like you said. Tricks don't win you games, strategies do.
Also, void rays are quite easy to kill. Coming from a Terran player, stimmed marines will murder voids rays. Ghosts will make it way easier as well. If they mass void rays, you mass marines. I've done several tests using marines vs void rays where both armies have the same mineral count, but the void ray army needs a lot more gas.
If you ever get surprised by a mass void ray army, you're not scouting properly. You'll have ample time to build a mass marine army with your reactored raxs unless the toss has like 8 stargates pumping out voids.
Not to mention that getting armor for marines will cut the Voids damage output by a lot. According to liquipedia, they do 5 dmg in 13 attacks over 7.2 secs until they reach level three beams. (5 x 13 = 65) Having 2 armor will almost cut their damage in half. (5 - 2 = 3 x 13 = 36)
btw, I am not trying to target you're post scojac but i just wanted to point out that void rays doesn't equal win.
voids no longer have 3 chargeups.. i thought this was cut to two in one of the earliest patches
On July 06 2010 05:51 Puremiss wrote: i bet all the toss players are like "leave it blizz, its cool ppl will find a way to deal w/ it eventually... thats part of the game guys comon."
and all the T's and Z's are like "holy shit... all my workers shift queued to death in 10 seconds how is that fair? and toss got obs so they can prepare the queue beforehand and just watch the destruction T.T fix pleaseeeeee"
im in the T/Z camp
when u let someone get 8 voids to oneshot your wokers, its your own fault when u couldnt finish him so far. and ye just spend 200 more gas on getting an obs... sure
i never read more bs srsly, what about this:
OMG HE DROPPED 4 TEMPLAR IN MY MINERAL LINE AND ALL WORKERS DEAD IN 3 SECS!111111111111 EVEN BETTER THAN 8 VOIDS
No, what's "more bs srsly" are the people who say things like "it's your own fault when you couldn't finish him so far." Awful... awful...
OMG this is HUGE :D I am definitly gonna abuse this trick while it lasts lol =0, it pays off to just save up a few more voidrays before attacking, it will be a practically unstoppable force at a certain amount, I mean even anti air cannot beat a dps output like that. first charge it on the refinery and then just blast away :D:D
On July 06 2010 06:51 Caracca wrote: will the same mechanic be usable for sentry's would be the next question , since they also use an insta beam weapon.
nope sentries animation is a beam but they actually attack in bursts like a regular unit. i tested this as soon as i saw it with voids (because sentries would be more OP like this)
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
Erm... because this trick seems like it'd be stronger against smaller number of units? If you have 2 voidrays facing 3 hydras, you can take them down quicker, etc.
Concidering Void Rays attack while moving, can you use the 'stop' or 'hold' command to stop them from attacking. Doing this would cause them to auto re-target an enemy infront of them, asuming they have 0 cooldown Everysingle time you press S then you deal another tick of dmg. Asuming u can (and you can) hold S to stop every 0.1 or what ever seconds, depending on retype rate. Void rays could get 10 ticks of dmg every second (granted you couldn't target what you wanted) but multiplying your dps by 10 = ggs...
On July 06 2010 06:51 Caracca wrote: will the same mechanic be usable for sentry's would be the next question , since they also use an insta beam weapon.
nope sentries animation is a beam but they actually attack in bursts like a regular unit. i tested this as soon as i saw it with voids (because sentries would be more OP like this)
On July 06 2010 07:03 InTriX wrote: Concidering Void Rays attack while moving, can you use the 'stop' or 'hold' command to stop them from attacking. Doing this would cause them to auto re-target an enemy infront of them, asuming they have 0 cooldown Everysingle time you press S then you deal another tick of dmg. Asuming u can (and you can) hold S to stop every 0.1 or what ever seconds, depending on retype rate. Void rays could get 10 ticks of dmg every second (granted you couldn't target what you wanted) but multiplying your dps by 10 = ggs...
On July 05 2010 19:52 youngminii wrote: The damage done by this trick does not scale with the speed of your clicking.
What's actually happening is that the attack is being 'split' into two, targetting the two hydras. The problem is, when it's 'split' the damage itself isn't being split so it deals full damage to the two hydras. But it only attacks them both once per 0.6 seconds (the cooldown).
So while it still does twice the amount of damage it should be doing, it most certainly does not scale with click speed. That's why all three hydras die at the same time in the video.
As I said, you can't hit the same target more than once per tick (0.6s).
Still, this trick has the potential to be quite OP.
On July 06 2010 07:03 InTriX wrote: Concidering Void Rays attack while moving, can you use the 'stop' or 'hold' command to stop them from attacking. Doing this would cause them to auto re-target an enemy infront of them, asuming they have 0 cooldown Everysingle time you press S then you deal another tick of dmg. Asuming u can (and you can) hold S to stop every 0.1 or what ever seconds, depending on retype rate. Void rays could get 10 ticks of dmg every second (granted you couldn't target what you wanted) but multiplying your dps by 10 = ggs...
Have you tested this? If this is true, then this would do more DPS to any unit, than a fully charged beam to only and ARMORED unit.
Fazing using the re-targeting thing that InTriX suggested: 5 * 0.1 = 50 DPS
Against Armored units: Stage 3: 25(+3) dmg / 0.6sec = 41.67 dps (+5.00 per upgrade) *Taken from liquipedia*
Doubt the holding s button works but if it does, it's OP for sure.
Same thing can be done with sentry right? I heard something about sentry micro not too long ago, I haven't seen it but it works pretty much the same way, you attack then click the ground then attack again to do more damage than just right clicking.
The first trick kinda blew me away, you killed those hydras so fast, I can see this being really hard to defend for an unprepared zerg. The second one i've already been doing if i have a chance to get a ton of void rays. It's harder in a real game because the probes are always moving.
I tested it but stop dosn't actually stop the unit from attacking. Someone already said it didn't work with sentries. Sentries have a cooldown of around half a second when attacking.
Void rays can be made to attack the same unit multiple times faster than normal however u have to turn it like 45 degrees so that it stops attacking the desired unit. However this might not be true as it takes like half a second to turn (my bad micro) so its same speed as normaly attacking a unit.
Concidering Void Rays attack while moving, can you use the 'stop' or 'hold' command to stop them from attacking. Doing this would cause them to auto re-target an enemy infront of them, asuming they have 0 cooldown Everysingle time you press S then you deal another tick of dmg. Asuming u can (and you can) hold S to stop every 0.1 or what ever seconds, depending on retype rate. Void rays could get 10 ticks of dmg every second (granted you couldn't target what you wanted) but multiplying your dps by 10 = ggs...
sorry to disappoiont but pressing stop or hold position for the void ray only affects its movment. It has an auto-attack so that the only way to "Faze" is to change targets rapidly.
As some of you may know, the sentery has the same type of attack, but it is not as useful because it is not an air unit. All you have to do with the sentery is attack/Stop/Attack/Stop fast and it will also do more DPS. I would post a vid if i could to help demonstrate.
on another note, this should be changed from fazing to "TheKinging" haha
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
Erm... because this trick seems like it'd be stronger against smaller number of units? If you have 2 voidrays facing 3 hydras, you can take them down quicker, etc.
3 hydralisk + 2 queens. If you lost queens beforehand you are most likely going to be way behind in the transition. Also the voids will be heavily damaged. Now try 3 hydra + 2queen vs 2 voids. Does the fazing do much?
Remember even if someone is using this to hit 2/3 units at a time rather than one. He is literaly doing NOTHING at all else, you can't macro at the same time unless u take breaks in it.
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
Erm... because this trick seems like it'd be stronger against smaller number of units? If you have 2 voidrays facing 3 hydras, you can take them down quicker, etc.
3 hydralisk + 2 queens. If you lost queens beforehand you are most likely going to be way behind in the transition. Also the voids will be heavily damaged. Now try 3 hydra + 2queen vs 2 voids. Does the fazing do much?
You can't just assume that'll be the case in all scenarios (that unit composition). For example, what if they first void ray caught the Zerg off guard (aka almost always does), and the first queen is sniped before the second can arrive (aka, a map like Desert Oasis, where it takes the Queen forever). First queen can't run because void ray attacks while moving. So the first void ray kills both queens, then recharges it's shields, second void ray arrives while 3 hydras hatch from the main hatch, etc.
On July 06 2010 07:34 Noocta wrote: These video remeber me the first starcraft 2 presentation video of Blizzard showing the VoidRay ( back then Warp Ray )
I've known about this for a while now actually and I'm pretty sure the pros have also. The problem with this trick is that it requires either a LOT of micro or a large number of void rays. It's very difficult to practically use. Most games are already over by the time you attain that number of void rays, and in smaller numbers it's almost always better to let the void rays charge up rather than keeping them at min charge for the fast firing rate
If you can spare that much apm on the void rays, why not charge them on something beforehand (a nexus, pylon, or group of rocks) then use the APM to fly them over and keep them at full charge (using the attack-one-another maintain charge trick). Dps of void rays at full charge > Dps of void rays using this trick
I agree that getting like 10+ void rays in 1v1 is bad and will hardly ever happen. However it could be exploited in 2v2s (although focusing is common anyway)
On July 06 2010 08:07 sinn wrote: Dps of void rays at full charge > Dps of void rays using this trick
The very first video in this thread shows that this equation is wrong. The DPS your voids will have when microing depends on how fast you are clicking.
On July 06 2010 08:07 sinn wrote: Dps of void rays at full charge > Dps of void rays using this trick
The very first video in this thread shows that this equation is wrong. The DPS your voids will have when microing depends on how fast you are clicking.
-_- I'm sorry but even if you're right, your argument is completely flawed. My point was about the DPS of void rays at FULL charge. Please watch the video you're using as an argument. If you notice, the auto-attack void rays attacking the hydra do so at MINIMUM charge.
On July 06 2010 07:34 Noocta wrote: These video remeber me the first starcraft 2 presentation video of Blizzard showing the VoidRay ( back then Warp Ray )
lol i just tested that. the 4 voids win easily with fazing, i also made sure they had combat shields.
though i think with stim or weapon upgrades the outcome might be different. forgot that to test...
Recall also that void ray is significantly shittier than the one now. Only two levels instead of 3 of attack. No delay after killing (beam instantly hits another target, delay here). And once charged - stays charged (I don't remember, but is 55 dmg to a marine enough to charge a void ray?).
On July 06 2010 07:34 Noocta wrote: These video remeber me the first starcraft 2 presentation video of Blizzard showing the VoidRay ( back then Warp Ray )
lol i just tested that. the 4 voids win easily with fazing, i also made sure they had combat shields.
though i think with stim or weapon upgrades the outcome might be different. forgot that to test...
Recall also that void ray is significantly shittier than the one now. Only two levels instead of 3 of attack. No delay after killing (beam instantly hits another target, delay here). And once charged - stays charged (I don't remember, but is 55 dmg to a marine enough to charge a void ray?).
Nope, 1 marine doesn't charge a void ray. It takes 13 attacks to get stage 3. It does 5 damage.
Do you know how many charges, if we say it needs 13 charges to finish, the void ray loses when it stops attacking for lets say each second (or changes target [using this fazing method]) I would asume 1 however it might be good to know if it lost like 2/second or somthing.
I personally didn't believe the shift attacking would really be an exploit...but then again, I only did it on large units...not units where 5 VRs could kill instantly...
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
Erm... because this trick seems like it'd be stronger against smaller number of units? If you have 2 voidrays facing 3 hydras, you can take them down quicker, etc.
3 hydralisk + 2 queens. If you lost queens beforehand you are most likely going to be way behind in the transition. Also the voids will be heavily damaged. Now try 3 hydra + 2queen vs 2 voids. Does the fazing do much?
You can't just assume that'll be the case in all scenarios (that unit composition). For example, what if they first void ray caught the Zerg off guard (aka almost always does), and the first queen is sniped before the second can arrive (aka, a map like Desert Oasis, where it takes the Queen forever). First queen can't run because void ray attacks while moving. So the first void ray kills both queens, then recharges it's shields, second void ray arrives while 3 hydras hatch from the main hatch, etc.
If this situation occurs, the microing really doesn't make that much of a difference because zerg is basically going to die. First off on a map like desert oasis you should be connecting creep faster then usual and have a 3rd queen. Maps with far naturals (desert, scrap) are big void ray maps so the third queen should be integrated into your strategy especially. Maps with closer positions allow queens to unite fast and the third queen isn't as pivotal.
If you don't have the 3rd queen and the creep isn't connected you die so the micro doesn't even matter. He gets control of your base before hydralisks come out. 2 charged void rays will tear through your 3 hydralisks and you are screwed. So the situation you describe is a losing position with or without this technique
If it resets the charge each time they switch targets then I would think it would be balanced. It would add micro and add an element of skill between whether to begin charging your rays or whether to use them to faze.
On July 06 2010 08:07 sinn wrote: Dps of void rays at full charge > Dps of void rays using this trick
The very first video in this thread shows that this equation is wrong. The DPS your voids will have when microing depends on how fast you are clicking.
-_- I'm sorry but even if you're right, your argument is completely flawed. My point was about the DPS of void rays at FULL charge. Please watch the video you're using as an argument. If you notice, the auto-attack void rays attacking the hydra do so at MINIMUM charge.
My mistake, but I am pretty sure spamming can and should(for most people) out DPS pre-charged DPS; although I haven't tested vs armored yet. Will come back with some numbers soon if no one beats me too it.
I don't know if this is still accurate or not, but last I heard, this trick only works on custom-made maps, and not on the current ladder maps. I unfortunately don't have the source anymore, but I'll look around a bit. I look forward to clarifying this in phase 2.
So with this micro it's basically the most useful on transit to the opponent's base when there aren't many buildings near by. But if there are buildings near by, is it better to faze or let it charge and then que up targets?
I like this a lot, thanks for posting. I ran into a situation today while testing a void ray rush BO, and I wasted 2 marines pretty fast. It was nothing like those videos, but I didn't lose any hit points except my shields while both marines died. It is way more effective the more voidrays you have; think void rays vs carriers in a 3v3 or voidrays vs other voidrays or phoenixes. You can really tip the scales against any Protoss opponent if you use this and he doesn't. Good stuff!
I thought voidrays do damage every second at the END of the second. I guess I was wrong.
Personally, I think this is great. Voidrays are weak against small units. We all know this. Now, theres a way for a skilled player to use voidrays against small units. Its more micro like how everyone's been asking.
I didn't read through 13 pages to see if anyone pointed this out, but it doesn't work with charged void rays because the damage isn't applied instantly.
So I'm pretty sure that unless you have the critical mass to shift click one shot an entire army/probe line, it's better to just charge up before going into battle.
Sure it's more micro, but it's only for the protoss. Us Terran and Zergs want something to micro as well and the only micro i do and know of is kiting with terran units.
Perhaps the first might be a flaw of the game, but the second is definitely a micro trick needed in the game. Doing that of course, will lower the other tasks you'll be able to do while queuing up the void ray's targets, so this doesn't necessarily mean that this will work in all scenarios.
It is great, and its things like this that will make the game of Starcraft 2 a higher level skill game like Starcraft. Looking forward to the release of the game even more so :D
On July 06 2010 08:07 sinn wrote: Dps of void rays at full charge > Dps of void rays using this trick
The very first video in this thread shows that this equation is wrong. The DPS your voids will have when microing depends on how fast you are clicking.
-_- I'm sorry but even if you're right, your argument is completely flawed. My point was about the DPS of void rays at FULL charge. Please watch the video you're using as an argument. If you notice, the auto-attack void rays attacking the hydra do so at MINIMUM charge.
My mistake, but I am pretty sure spamming can and should(for most people) out DPS pre-charged DPS; although I haven't tested vs armored yet. Will come back with some numbers soon if no one beats me too it.
Either way there is nothing stopping you from getting the pre-charge up and then using the phazing technique to do even more damage still. Once fully charged you don't loose your charge unless you stop attacking for a while. You could for example attack a supply depo or something while waiting for the enemy to get his troops in range then begin phasing on the army while fully charged.
On July 06 2010 06:15 EliteAzn wrote: The issue isn't void rays killing off workers quickly, it's void rays killing off units that are supposed to do well it against them quickly.
Just by watching the first video, 2 hydras aren't supposed to go down that quickly against 2 void rays....thus this ability/exploit pretty much make void ray rushes/proxy void rays almost unstoppable.
*Edit: "Unstoppable" was a poor choice in wording...but hopefully you get the point....However the micro'ing will be tedius for the toss player.
That first sentence bothers me. The "hard counter" system has been criticized a ton and little micro tricks like this can aid in making units more versatile.
How are void ray rushes that much stronger then before? In what scenario would this be over powered?
Erm... because this trick seems like it'd be stronger against smaller number of units? If you have 2 voidrays facing 3 hydras, you can take them down quicker, etc.
3 hydralisk + 2 queens. If you lost queens beforehand you are most likely going to be way behind in the transition. Also the voids will be heavily damaged. Now try 3 hydra + 2queen vs 2 voids. Does the fazing do much?
You can't just assume that'll be the case in all scenarios (that unit composition). For example, what if they first void ray caught the Zerg off guard (aka almost always does), and the first queen is sniped before the second can arrive (aka, a map like Desert Oasis, where it takes the Queen forever). First queen can't run because void ray attacks while moving. So the first void ray kills both queens, then recharges it's shields, second void ray arrives while 3 hydras hatch from the main hatch, etc.
If this situation occurs, the microing really doesn't make that much of a difference because zerg is basically going to die. First off on a map like desert oasis you should be connecting creep faster then usual and have a 3rd queen. Maps with far naturals (desert, scrap) are big void ray maps so the third queen should be integrated into your strategy especially. Maps with closer positions allow queens to unite fast and the third queen isn't as pivotal.
If you don't have the 3rd queen and the creep isn't connected you die so the micro doesn't even matter. He gets control of your base before hydralisks come out. 2 charged void rays will tear through your 3 hydralisks and you are screwed. So the situation you describe is a losing position with or without this technique
You're avoiding the point - you asked how it would be a stronger rush. It is nonetheless. Whether or not you should "be prepared" is irrelevant to if it is stronger or not.
I cant wade through all the text, but we are sure other instant attacking units dont work like this? The only other instant damage unit i can think of is the siege tank, which would be ridic...
On July 06 2010 23:03 DC Elite wrote: I cant wade through all the text, but we are sure other instant attacking units dont work like this? The only other instant damage unit i can think of is the siege tank, which would be ridic...
Its not just the fact it has instant damage, the void ray is the only unit which has 0 cooldown after its attack.
this makes the voidray better at what the voidray stinks hard at, which is to straight up fight with his low beam. in a real game u could potentially kill 2-4 marines easier but in reality the voidray is better off flying away
theres no need at all for blizzard to remove this, its an awesome trick but it wont cause a problem in the balance
This just further reinforces the fact that I want to main protoss in Phase 2 of beta. Get some better mechanics going and then have more opportunities at interesting micro than my current use of zerg.
This explains why Void Rays have always been so freaking hard to deal with if your enemy gets a handful of them. I think it's an interesting dynamic that the faster they're killing units the more their DPS goes up.
@imPERSONater Yeah it's disappointing that Zerg seems to be void of neat tricks and opportunities like this, but oh well.
This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2
heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second
now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios
On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote: This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
On July 06 2010 23:52 MorroW wrote: to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
Oooh, that seems like it's going to be a fun dynamic going forward. The Void Rays are clicking to change targets while the enemy units are jockeying to surround the void rays and minimize its damage.
If Blizzard changes this (which they shouldn't, at least not yet) I hope they just increase the turning time of the void ray or add a delay when switching that's less than the time it takes for the void ray to attack again on a single target. Either way switching should remain the better way of dealing with multiple targets.
a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2
heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second
now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios
On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote: This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units.
Fazing: 5 * 0.1 = 50 DPS
Level 3 Fully Charged Void Ray Damage:
Against Non-Armored Units: Stage 3: 10(+1) dmg / 0.6sec = 16.67 dps (+1.67 per upgrade) Against Armored units: Stage 3: 25(+3) dmg / 0.6sec = 41.67 dps (+5.00 per upgrade) *Taken from liquipedia*
As you can see, fazing with non-armored units like the marine is already doing 3 times the damage output of a fully charged beam. It's no wonder why the hydras and marines fell so quickly to fazing. If I was facing a protoss with a fast void, I would need to either get a reactored rax to pump out marines or a quick viking. If I don't do any of those, if he's able to faze well, he'll crush my small marine defense, and then my scvs :O! Where as without fazing, I would probably win with a maybe 4 - 5 marines.
If done correctly, a mass of siege tanks, thors, roaches, ultras, vikings, corruptors, slow brood lords, depots, buildings, will fall extremely fast to faze if they're CLUMPED together. If fact if a person could click in under 0.1 sec, fazing would be stronger than a fully upgraded beam which damage output suffers with the need of 13 attacks doing 5 damage at stage 1 and 2. Fazing the damage output starts when you begin switching between units.
I am not saying that fazing is imba, NO IT'S NOT IMBA . In fact, people would need to spread out their units as if it was a baneling mass to lower the damage done. I do like this ability to micro to get a reward of extra damage. More importantly, it breaks this idea of "hard counters" and such. With great micro, void rays now don't lose to marines or hydras (which are meant to counter them) What I want to know is if any other of the races have a unit like it.
As a zerg player the void ray is my sworn enemy but I LOVE this mechanic. If it makes void rays op at higher levels I think there should be stat nerfs, but for gods sake keep micro tricks like this.
On July 06 2010 22:57 lovewithlea wrote: made some tests. 4 voids win vs 14 battleshield marines with fazing about 2-3 VRs left, while 4+ are left of the marines without fazing.
this is nuts
I don't remember VR cost, how does 4 VRs compare to 700 min + upgrade costs?
a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2
heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second
now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios
On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote: This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units.
well my vod vs stacked supply depot demonstrates that the absolute maximum attacks per second is 8 which is 0.125attack/s (40dmg/sec) (32dmg/sec vs structures cause of armor) and now stacked buildings cant exist in a melee game and players wouldnt be able to change targets(^^) so that would force the voidray to be in exact same line as the target structures to reach this amount of damage, even an inch wrong direction and ull drop 3~ attacks per second(12dps~)
so all and all it takes a huge chunk of skill to make fazing a real threat against marines and compete with fully charged with fazing. even if u got optimal micro its arguable if the fazing is worth money-wise with 1 voidray vs 3+ marines, vs 2 marines its probably very effective
I think this feature is fine as long as it is in the unit description so that everyone knows about it. It would suck for someone to lose to this and think it's a bug in the game that people are abusing, and then think the game sucks.
Fazing works because there is a low startup cooldown and a large after-animation which can be canceled into another attack. Similar to 'orb walking' in Warcraft 3 where you can cancel the last part of an attack's animation so the unit is idle and ready to move or shoot another.
Then wouldn't that mean you could faze single units. Without having to change targets?
All you'd have to do is attack, stop, attack stop. In a fashion so each attack would hit, but stop immediately afterwards. The reason why this should work is because it's the exact same process as with fazing two units. You'd attack, and when you attack a different unit, the original attack is stopped, and you attack again before the animation's cooldown would've been over, had you never canceled it. This allows you to get multiple hits in, faster, which is why fazing has a higher damage output.
a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2
heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second
now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios
On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote: This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units.
well my vod vs stacked supply depot demonstrates that the absolute maximum attacks per second is 8 which is 0.125attack/s (40dmg/sec) (32dmg/sec vs structures cause of armor) and now stacked buildings cant exist in a melee game and players wouldnt be able to change targets(^^) so that would force the voidray to be in exact same line as the target structures to reach this amount of damage, even an inch wrong direction and ull drop 3~ attacks per second(12dps~)
so all and all it takes a huge chunk of skill to make fazing a real threat against marines and compete with fully charged with fazing. even if u got optimal micro its arguable if the fazing is worth money-wise with 1 voidray vs 3+ marines, vs 2 marines its probably very effective
Can't believe I didn't see that second video when I posted lol
Well I lost my argument for fazing for armored units and buildings. When you factor in the armor of the structure in the damage calculation for stage 3 beams:
24 /0.6 = 40 DPS
The DPS drops less than 2 than without armor. DPS for fazing drops fast with every armor added or upgraded. (40 -> 32 against 1 armor) (40 -> 16 against max armor)
As for if it's worth it or not, I think fazing would work quite well if it's early, and you're constantly poking into the base of the Terran. You can faze scvs and do some damage to the economy. With fazing, you can kill a bit more marines and then pull back when the shields are almost done to heal. I think it's in late game when fazing may look effectiveness. Of course, this is all theory and i'd like beta to come back up so we can do some real testing >:D
I would like to see more testing with fazing with more void rays and see if there are any differences. Sweet testing map btw.
if this was already posted please just ignore it. but this technique in a fight is only viable if you fight many light units. if you fight for example stalkters or vikings or so, it´s more effektive to divide the voidrayattacks amongst the opposing units to let them charge fully.
On July 07 2010 01:57 Kakisho wrote: Fazing works because there is a low startup cooldown and a large after-animation which can be canceled into another attack. Similar to 'orb walking' in Warcraft 3 where you can cancel the last part of an attack's animation so the unit is idle and ready to move or shoot another.
Then wouldn't that mean you could faze single units. Without having to change targets?
All you'd have to do is attack, stop, attack stop. In a fashion so each attack would hit, but stop immediately afterwards. The reason why this should work is because it's the exact same process as with fazing two units. You'd attack, and when you attack a different unit, the original attack is stopped, and you attack again before the animation's cooldown would've been over, had you never canceled it. This allows you to get multiple hits in, faster, which is why fazing has a higher damage output.
Is this correct?
this is not possible because the void ray beam gets stuck to the target and can attack while hunting it etc. only way to break it is to change angle or change target. u gotta exit about a 45degree to stop attacking it but this is far enough to make fazing against single units inefficient as hell
a small clip i made to demonstrate fazing and how freaking good ai bots can do it, at one point it reached up to 8 attacks in 1 second while i can max do 4-5 :p sry for the quality being sucky,cant change to windowed mode when playing custom maps without bnet 2
heres another demonstration i made (even worse quality<3) to show how distance doesnt matter in attack speed, only that angle does. stacking and being in a line gave almost same results while surrounding attacked alot slower. circle gave 4-5 attacks per second line 5-8 attacks per second stack 6-8 attacks per second
now remember players wont be able to do this as good as ai bots even how much they practice, they can reach almost optimal results but its close to impossible thats why i hope blizzard keeps this because its totally baller to see voidray control now ^^ after it got range nerf the kiting got pretty much removed and there was no micro left but now this is in the game and it should create for some interesting micro scenarios
On July 06 2010 23:51 TheFinalWord wrote: This has probably been asked. I know that clicked between 2 units doesn't increase damage beyond a certain speed, but what if you change targets to a whole line of units? If you got a void ray and somehow managed to right click on 10 different enemies in a second, would they all take damage? or is there a limit to how fast it can switch targets?
to change target takes a small duration of time, about 0.1 sec but the weapon requires that u look at the enemy when taking initial attack so if u line up 10 marines around the voidray it will take some time for him to turn around while if u put 10 supply depots in a line that pushes out of the voidray and it can attack all supply without moving then ye i think it can attack 10~ attacks in a second, maybe a little less :p its all about how spread out the opponent is
I've posted this before and if there is no delay in fazing, and a player could change the targets in less than 0.1 sec, it would render a fully charged void ray useful for naked buildings and naked units.
well my vod vs stacked supply depot demonstrates that the absolute maximum attacks per second is 8 which is 0.125attack/s (40dmg/sec) (32dmg/sec vs structures cause of armor) and now stacked buildings cant exist in a melee game and players wouldnt be able to change targets(^^) so that would force the voidray to be in exact same line as the target structures to reach this amount of damage, even an inch wrong direction and ull drop 3~ attacks per second(12dps~)
so all and all it takes a huge chunk of skill to make fazing a real threat against marines and compete with fully charged with fazing. even if u got optimal micro its arguable if the fazing is worth money-wise with 1 voidray vs 3+ marines, vs 2 marines its probably very effective
Can't believe I didn't see that second video when I posted lol
Well I lost my argument for fazing for armored units and buildings. When you factor in the armor of the structure in the damage calculation for stage 3 beams:
24 /0.6 = 40 DPS
The DPS drops less than 2 than without armor. DPS for fazing drops fast with every armor added or upgraded. (40 -> 32 against 1 armor) (40 -> 16 against max armor)
As for if it's worth it or not, I think fazing would work quite well if it's early, and you're constantly poking into the base of the Terran. You can faze scvs and do some damage to the economy. With fazing, you can kill a bit more marines and then pull back when the shields are almost done to heal. I think it's in late game when fazing may look effectiveness. Of course, this is all theory and i'd like beta to come back up so we can do some real testing >:D
I would like to see more testing with fazing with more void rays and see if there are any differences. Sweet testing map btw.
Everyone running tests please realize the efficiency is not determined by how fast you click between 2 targets, but how many targets overall you can click between in the .6 second tick window. Thus, if you are cycling through 4-5 targets in this time, they should all take full damage.
This means damage scales proportionately to the number of targets (assuming the APM/accuracy to support it). This is absolutely crazy for early-game engagements.
Basically this means damage will scale with click speed. Can't wait to see all the AI tests of how many of each unit max can be taken out in X amount of time.
On July 07 2010 03:51 tedster wrote: Everyone running tests please realize the efficiency is not determined by how fast you click between 2 targets, but how many targets overall you can click between in the .6 second tick window. Thus, if you are cycling through 4-5 targets in this time, they should all take full damage.
This means damage scales proportionately to the number of targets (assuming the APM/accuracy to support it). This is absolutely crazy for early-game engagements.
Basically this means damage will scale with click speed. Can't wait to see all the AI tests of how many of each unit max can be taken out in X amount of time.
Didn't you see those videos? The AI took out 2 marines in roughly 2 seconds! That is way faster than you can take out a single marine.
Edit: And I think the biggest problem is that with this technique they would counter mutas which is really bad.
The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
On July 07 2010 04:07 Grond wrote: The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
Read the last few pages I think 13 to 15. We've found that fazing does a lot more damage against non-armored units than letting it charge. Although it's a lot harder to faze against spread out units, and massed small units. Against armored and buildings, a charged beam would work better.
On July 07 2010 04:26 Day[10] wrote: dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
They did make void rays have a slow animation when switching targets and attacking in alpha. It opens up the claws at the front and then fires the beam every time. You can see that small units would just murder them xD
On July 07 2010 04:32 DC Elite wrote: This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
Of course it is. You may as well say build trees should be simplified so that one can't gain an advantage by using tl to improve their build order. These sorts of tricks were everywhere in bw with patrol micro, magic boxes, binding your mutas to an overlord for better stacking, etc. People should be rewarded for doing their homework.
On July 07 2010 04:32 DC Elite wrote: This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
Of course it is. You may as well say build trees should be simplified so that one can't gain an advantage by using tl to improve their build order. These sorts of tricks were everywhere in bw with patrol micro, magic boxes, binding your mutas to an overlord for better stacking, etc. People should be rewarded for doing their homework.
This VR thing is a glitch and i dont see it on the same level as simple tricks you could probably figure out without having to do your homework. This isnt a cool trick, its abuse of something that was accidentally missed in coding, plain and simple. I refuse to believe blizz intended for there to be machine gun rate firing of a unit if you could slick faster.
I hope this doesn't get patched almost purely because the OP did such a baller job getting it named fazing. Hilariously awesome that his name was such a good fit for the technique.
Between using both this at the right times, and the original void ray micro (keeping charge up while moving with at least 1 other unit)at other times, there is a long evolution ahead for Void Ray control. It seems their control will require high skill as it will be difficult to multitask alongside with.
someone said that you can't charge on a single marine - you actually can. + Show Spoiler +
the void ray, even though it has only two attack levels, it actually still has three stages, it just so happens that the second stage does not add any damage.
when you switch targets (or when the target dies), you will always revert back to the stage you were at previously.
so, the void ray does 5 damage per .6 seconds. a marine has 45 HP.
40 HP - tick 1 (0.0 seconds) 35 HP - tick 2 (0.6 seconds) 30 HP - tick 3 (1.2 seconds) 25 HP - tick 4 (1.8 seconds) 20 HP - tick 5 (2.4 seconds) 15 HP - tick 6 (3.0 seconds) 10 HP - tick 7 (3.6 seconds) 5 HP - tick 8 (4.2 seconds) 0 HP - tick 9 (4.8 seconds)
(forgive me in advance if my math is wrong, but trust me, it works out ingame!)
according to the wiki, it takes 7.2 seconds to fully charge a void ray. but remember that there are three "stages" of attack. the void ray, upon killing the marine, is in its second stage (at tick 7, if I'm not mistaken). when the marine dies, the void ray will switch targets, but because it was in its second stage upon killing the marine, it will reset back to that stage (at 3.6 seconds). this means the void ray only has to charge 3.6 seconds on the second marine to reach full charge. only two ticks are "wasted" (tick 8 and 9) in terms of efficiency.
of course this would all change if you had three void rays or something, where they would kill the units before reaching their second stage, which would then reset them back to the first stage upon switching targets.
tl;dr: a single void ray can reach full charge on any collection of units except for banelings and broodlings.
point 2: as others have said, you are merely splitting the damage. you are increasing damage output because you are hitting more targets, but not because you are doing more damage to a single individual target.
also, keep in mind that this is only good against lower tier units in which you wouldn't reach level three charge. you wouldn't see this on an Ultralisk or a Carrier, because the tier 3 damage will eventually out-dps the fazing trick.
On July 06 2010 22:57 lovewithlea wrote: made some tests. 4 voids win vs 14 battleshield marines with fazing about 2-3 VRs left, while 4+ are left of the marines without fazing.
this is nuts
I don't remember VR cost, how does 4 VRs compare to 700 min + upgrade costs?
I didn't read a few pages of the thread, so forgive me if it has been mentioned before, but can you use this trick against one unit? Lets say it is a Void Ray versus a Hydralisk. Could you "faze" by spamming right click attack or attack move and the stop command?
On July 07 2010 07:30 Whole wrote: I didn't read a few pages of the thread, so forgive me if it has been mentioned before, but can you use this trick against one unit? Lets say it is a Void Ray versus a Hydralisk. Could you "faze" by spamming right click attack or attack move and the stop command?
you can't for two reasons.
on a mechanics level, try to visualize fazing as "splitting' the damage. you aren't resetting the timer when you switch targets. you are attacking another unit within a 0.6 second window. you can't attack the same unit again in that same window.
so this only works against more units.
the second reason is mainly a difficulty one, as you actually have to not be facing your target (about 45 degrees in each direction I'd assume) for the the void ray to stop firing. so you'd have to click behind you, and then click in front, and then click behind, and the void ray takes time to turn (note: I don't know if this is just for animation purposes only, so I may be wrong on this one) so it would just become pointless.
On July 07 2010 04:07 Grond wrote: The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
Read the last few pages I think 13 to 15. We've found that fazing does a lot more damage against non-armored units than letting it charge. Although it's a lot harder to faze against spread out units, and massed small units. Against armored and buildings, a charged beam would work better.
On July 07 2010 04:26 Day[10] wrote: dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
They did make void rays have a slow animation when switching targets and attacking in alpha. It opens up the claws at the front and then fires the beam every time. You can see that small units would just murder them xD
@ morrow
If you could please do :D
The jury still seems to be out on the mechanics but if it turns out to be how many times you can click in 0.6 seconds that is going to be a pretty low number after you add in 150-250ms for battlenet lag. I'm sure this will see some more testing when the beta comes back up but from what I know of Void Ray mechanics I predict a perfectly microed Void Ray will do less damage than a charged Void Ray. However it will still be useful against low health targets which makes it interesting.
On July 07 2010 07:09 damiah wrote: a few points I want to address:
someone said that you can't charge on a single marine - you actually can. + Show Spoiler +
the void ray, even though it has only two attack levels, it actually still has three stages, it just so happens that the second stage does not add any damage.
when you switch targets (or when the target dies), you will always revert back to the stage you were at previously.
so, the void ray does 5 damage per .6 seconds. a marine has 45 HP.
40 HP - tick 1 (0.0 seconds) 35 HP - tick 2 (0.6 seconds) 30 HP - tick 3 (1.2 seconds) 25 HP - tick 4 (1.8 seconds) 20 HP - tick 5 (2.4 seconds) 15 HP - tick 6 (3.0 seconds) 10 HP - tick 7 (3.6 seconds) 5 HP - tick 8 (4.2 seconds) 0 HP - tick 9 (4.8 seconds)
(forgive me in advance if my math is wrong, but trust me, it works out ingame!)
according to the wiki, it takes 7.2 seconds to fully charge a void ray. but remember that there are three "stages" of attack. the void ray, upon killing the marine, is in its second stage (at tick 7, if I'm not mistaken). when the marine dies, the void ray will switch targets, but because it was in its second stage upon killing the marine, it will reset back to that stage (at 3.6 seconds). this means the void ray only has to charge 3.6 seconds on the second marine to reach full charge. only two ticks are "wasted" (tick 8 and 9) in terms of efficiency.
of course this would all change if you had three void rays or something, where they would kill the units before reaching their second stage, which would then reset them back to the first stage upon switching targets.
tl;dr: a single void ray can reach full charge on any collection of units except for banelings and broodlings.
point 2: as others have said, you are merely splitting the damage. you are increasing damage output because you are hitting more targets, but not because you are doing more damage to a single individual target.
also, keep in mind that this is only good against lower tier units in which you wouldn't reach level three charge. you wouldn't see this on an Ultralisk or a Carrier, because the tier 3 damage will eventually out-dps the fazing trick.
Wait, wouldn't this need two marines to fully charge? The way i'm looking at this is that in a 1 v 1 situation (void ray vs marine) the void ray will not reach stage 3 of it's beam.
On July 07 2010 04:07 Grond wrote: The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
Read the last few pages I think 13 to 15. We've found that fazing does a lot more damage against non-armored units than letting it charge. Although it's a lot harder to faze against spread out units, and massed small units. Against armored and buildings, a charged beam would work better.
On July 07 2010 04:26 Day[10] wrote: dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
They did make void rays have a slow animation when switching targets and attacking in alpha. It opens up the claws at the front and then fires the beam every time. You can see that small units would just murder them xD
@ morrow
If you could please do :D
The jury still seems to be out on the mechanics but if it turns out to be how many times you can click in 0.6 seconds that is going to be a pretty low number after you add in 150-250ms for battlenet lag. I'm sure this will see some more testing when the beta comes back up but from what I know of Void Ray mechanics I predict a perfectly microed Void Ray will do less damage than a charged Void Ray. However it will still be useful against low health targets which makes it interesting.
I guess the only way to confirm the usefulness of fazing is to try it in several games and see how the community would feel about it. So far, we've used this in unit testers and math to come to some theories, but ultimately you can't prove something until you actually play it on beta which needs to go up!
On July 07 2010 04:07 Grond wrote: The increase in damage by microing is still substantially less than a charged Void Ray does. Since the player has to forfeit charged damage and invest a lot of micro I doubt it will be changed for balance reasons. However Blizzard may change it for other reasons.
Read the last few pages I think 13 to 15. We've found that fazing does a lot more damage against non-armored units than letting it charge. Although it's a lot harder to faze against spread out units, and massed small units. Against armored and buildings, a charged beam would work better.
On July 07 2010 04:26 Day[10] wrote: dunno, the only way I COULD see them patching is create a timer between the damage. which would suck. PLease don't patch ThIS BLiZz, It iS neXT to ImpOSsiBLE to miCrO PErfECTLY!!!
They did make void rays have a slow animation when switching targets and attacking in alpha. It opens up the claws at the front and then fires the beam every time. You can see that small units would just murder them xD
@ morrow
If you could please do :D
The jury still seems to be out on the mechanics but if it turns out to be how many times you can click in 0.6 seconds that is going to be a pretty low number after you add in 150-250ms for battlenet lag.
Lag don't reduce your apm one bit, it only makes your action take effect later. So if you click every 100 ms the void will change target every 100 ms, just ~200 ms later than when you clicked.
On July 07 2010 04:32 DC Elite wrote: This is clearly not the intention of the unit and it shouldnt be up to the player to 'know' that void rays can do this. Anything where a normal player would have a large disadvantage over a team liquid forum user player should be fixed.
Example, if i played a PvP and we happened to have a 2 void ray vs 2 void ray fight in the early mid game, i would lose pathetically to this trick if i didnt know it and subsequently have a huge disadvantage and lose the game.
Is that fair?
Of course it is. You may as well say build trees should be simplified so that one can't gain an advantage by using tl to improve their build order. These sorts of tricks were everywhere in bw with patrol micro, magic boxes, binding your mutas to an overlord for better stacking, etc. People should be rewarded for doing their homework.
This VR thing is a glitch and i dont see it on the same level as simple tricks you could probably figure out without having to do your homework. This isnt a cool trick, its abuse of something that was accidentally missed in coding, plain and simple. I refuse to believe blizz intended for there to be machine gun rate firing of a unit if you could slick faster.
I think you're on the wrong track with your logic. There are often things that are glitches that add to gameplay, intentional or not. Glitching units over minerals is another example of something obviously unintentional in BW and hard to find, but useful and interesting once you know it's there. I used to think along your lines, and get hung up about what the intention of the gameplay was, but in reality I think it's really a matter of balance - if 'fazing' makes the void ray a far better unit in practise then it should be fixed or the unit itself should be nerfed. The balance is more important than some arbitrary designer intention. And I think it's identical in nature to muta stacking/mineral glitching (unless you think blizz intended muta users to group in lots of 11?)
If this starts to be widely used... heck, if this starts to be used at all, there's no way Blizzard will let it stand. I would not be surprised in the slightest to see this nerfed.
Fazing - I loved this trick so much, I just edited the Void Ray article on Liquipedia II. The edit is awaiting an authorized review for permanent addition.
To all screaming imba/'ba' - Blizz'll have game stats to see where this falls, and will do what's appropriate. Next time, do something productive, and make an unbiased Liquipedia edit.
On July 09 2010 13:32 Wayra wrote: abused it while you can =p. Also can anyone confirm me that it works charged now? I am not sure if I was just slow...
You mean the two people posting just a few posts before you?
On July 09 2010 13:32 Wayra wrote: abused it while you can =p. Also can anyone confirm me that it works charged now? I am not sure if I was just slow...
You mean the two people posting just a few posts before you?
I said confirm me. I saw the 2 posts before, which is why I tried it in the first place. I was asking for insights into fazing with charge and it never hurts to have more than 3 people to look into a new concept and discuss about it. But thanks for the useful post.
Confirm me? What does that even mean? If English isn't your first language, then I guess I can understand, but just so you know, I'm fairly certain that that combination of words has no actual meaning.
On July 09 2010 14:23 Sylvr wrote: Confirm me? What does that even mean? If English isn't your first language, then I guess I can understand, but just so you know, I'm fairly certain that that combination of words has no actual meaning.
you are right. Confirm me is wrong grammatically. It should be confirm my statement.
How can someone seriously think this is good/balanced?
Voids' damage should be turned into a damage over time only. It's bad enough that the thing counters it's intended counters soft or otherwise. People seem to forget this is not Brood War and while micro tricks are nice, ridiculously imbalanced things only one race can do are not.
I noticed in the shift-queueing vs A attack video, you started queueing from the BACK of the probes, which would make them die much faster as there's no movement time while in the A-attack video the void rays obviously start from the front. What if instead of A-attacking, you simply attacked a probe at the back then let them A attack? How many seconds would that take?
See its things like this that slowy make sc2 a unique game. I hope they don't remove this. Knowing how to phase and when to use it takes skill! we like skill!
idk, honestly i thought i was gonna lose the game anyways, but it was still somewhat close imo. Our armies clashed and my stalkers literally disappeared instantly. I'm a huge fan of tricks and stuff, anything thats cool to look at and involves micro is awesome, but this one might go a little too far... BUT i gotta play way more games before i determine that
They fixed the 1.04 BW reaver/shuttle no cooldown because it turned every game into invincible reaver drops, and they'll fix this too if it turns out that toss automatically kills everything once they get about 8 voidrays.
On July 09 2010 15:24 teamsolid wrote: I noticed in the shift-queueing vs A attack video, you started queueing from the BACK of the probes, which would make them die much faster as there's no movement time while in the A-attack video the void rays obviously start from the front. What if instead of A-attacking, you simply attacked a probe at the back then let them A attack? How many seconds would that take?
The reason I started from the front side is so that the probes wouldn't run away. But they still tried, so the VR's moved up with them. This means that when they killed 1 target, they were already in position for the next one. The strength of the targeting isn't the movement, it's the fact that the VR's auto faze. There isn't really any time between 1 target and the next, and that's what makes it so powerful
what do you guys think Blizzard should do, if they do, to balance this but still keep it in the game? Make the attack delay even lower like .5 real seconds to require you click even faster to get the benefit? (With adjusted damage per .5 seconds ofcourse).
On July 05 2010 20:24 Geiko wrote: How on earth do you get that zealot to board the warp prism so fast ??
hotkey stalkers as 1 hotkey prism as 2 hit 1 - a, then click on the stalker and really fast hit 2 - right click. should be pretty easy for anyone to pull off in that kinda setting.
Anyway, to people complaining that its a ridiculous 'exploit'... i suppose you hated muta stacking in broodwar as well huh =\. This community as a whole is kinda funny, people complain about how the game doesnt have enough depth compared to bw and how theres no fun 'micro' aspects, then when we start discovering the things that will give the game depth, half of you scream exploit and demand it be removed... We have no idea how much this actually breaks the balance of pvt/pvz/pvp, and we wont know until a good player starts utilizing it in his play.
I thought this same thing, but intuitively this seems like it will be too strong. However, it should be given some time before it's removed to see if it really does affect the game negatively.
How would they patch it without destroying the void ray as a unit? The whole point is that it can switch targets and stay charged (worker harass and so on) so making a cooldown would totally negate the need for a charge up.
what do you guys think Blizzard should do, if they do, to balance this but still keep it in the game? Make the attack delay even lower like .5 real seconds to require you click even faster to get the benefit? (With adjusted damage per .5 seconds ofcourse).
Xahhk has a great idea! Perhaps Blizz already tested this extensively, and fell upon this cooldown time... but I'm thinking not.
How fast should we make progamers click? Should the attack just be a fixed damage over time, regardless of clicks?
I love this trick, I think it should stay. It's a cool SC2 technique, reminiscent of some of Brood War's. But it should be adjusted to be balanced. If this is, in fact, imba, then just just apply Xahhk's solution; make it more difficult to use, narrow its use.
On July 09 2010 14:09 cheeseninja wrote: Fazing - I loved this trick so much, I just edited the Void Ray article on Liquipedia II. The edit is awaiting an authorized review for permanent addition.
done ^^ btw: this forum has [ wiki2 ] brackets ^^ : Void Ray
but i wanted to mention a few things that came up in this thread that were simply wrong: void rays need to shoot one target consecutively to charge up.
this can be done with marines, because the the second stage "still" exists - just that it does not differ from the first stage in terms of damage. it serves as a stepping stone and the void ray can reach third stage with a second marine.
anyways, fazing will not charge up your void rays - fazing is more like the complete opposite of charging.
and my personal part of the post: do not like it's not the mechanics i dislike - it's the fact that we're talking about the frikkin' Void Ray here... marines were having a hard time already. hydras don't have the improved rate of fire against air units anymore either. and with that speed, VRs will be more of a corsair than phoenixes -.-
on a sub-platinum level, this phenomenon occurs automatically due to critical mass; the "casual" player is indeed massing VRs and - with a bit of stacking - plows through everything with just 1a. i hear it's extremely boring and the worst smack magnet ever.
sry, but... imho, give this nifty feature to the "recently" dmg-nerfed sentry and change the PrismaticBeam 's period value="0" to... anything that's not 0.
On July 09 2010 12:38 pzea469 wrote: i think voidrays might be op now lol just faced someone going voidrays and my stalkers evaporated so fast. Pretty sure he was Fazing
On July 09 2010 15:04 Auronz wrote: How can someone seriously think this is good/balanced?
Voids' damage should be turned into a damage over time only. It's bad enough that the thing counters it's intended counters soft or otherwise. People seem to forget this is not Brood War and while micro tricks are nice, ridiculously imbalanced things only one race can do are not.
If this makes Blizzard redesign the Void Ray and do away with charging I'd be all for it. Comparatively speaking Protoss air is pretty lackluster.
On July 09 2010 15:04 Auronz wrote: How can someone seriously think this is good/balanced?
Voids' damage should be turned into a damage over time only. It's bad enough that the thing counters it's intended counters soft or otherwise. People seem to forget this is not Brood War and while micro tricks are nice, ridiculously imbalanced things only one race can do are not.
On July 09 2010 21:02 Schurk wrote: don't know if this has been posted before, but would this fazing work on 1 building / unit if you'd mash your S button and right mouse button?
Just tested this and it doesn't work; the void rays don't stop shooting when you give them the stop command (probably because they can fire while moving). It does work if you right click the target and then the ground near it rapidly, though.
On July 09 2010 15:04 Auronz wrote: How can someone seriously think this is good/balanced?
Voids' damage should be turned into a damage over time only. It's bad enough that the thing counters it's intended counters soft or otherwise. People seem to forget this is not Brood War and while micro tricks are nice, ridiculously imbalanced things only one race can do are not.
It MAY be overpowered, but I wouldn't judge it too quickly. Remember how overpowered muta-stacking was when people first started using it? Now it's fine, and nothing has changed.
It'll take some practice to do it online but in theory it should definitely be doable.
When I use Void Rays, I usually bring a probe/zealot, build a proxy pylon right outside of where the Void Rays are about to engage the enemy and charge the Void Rays there.
Oh my god I chocked on my tea when I saw the stacked rays with queued attacks unleashing on probes. That shit is brutal. Fazing is also freaking awesome.
Cheating swines are quick to call it a "feature" or "micro trick" when it reality it's just a pathetic exploit for people already playing the noobiest-friendly race to abuse even more...
On July 14 2010 00:16 Santriell wrote: Cheating swines are quick to call it a "feature" or "micro trick" when it reality it's just a pathetic exploit for people already playing the noobiest-friendly race to abuse even more...
You mad about something bro? It's a good find, let it go.
On July 14 2010 00:24 TheNomad wrote: You mad about something bro? It's a good find, let it go.
I mad @ the onslaught of lamers who have been using this shit lately. Short of the 4-gaters pretty much every protoss i've played against resorts to that cheap crap when they feel they're losing...
This will only work with perfect latency, and zero delay. In an actual game you will NEVER be able to perform this to your advantage (concerning 99 % of the community and 100 % of people posting in this thread). So just give it a damn rest will ya
On July 14 2010 00:24 TheNomad wrote: You mad about something bro? It's a good find, let it go.
I mad @ the onslaught of lamers who have been using this shit lately. Short of the 4-gaters pretty much every protoss i've played against resorts to that cheap crap when they feel they're losing...
Lol as flippin sweet as this is, it would be way too overpowering at the top levels, especially once all of the korean pros switch over to sc2... Their micro would dominate everyone!
On July 14 2010 00:45 Taniard wrote: Lol as flippin sweet as this is, it would be way too overpowering at the top levels, especially once all of the korean pros switch over to sc2... Their micro would dominate everyone!
Don't be so quick to state imbalance. Even muta stacking was balanced eventually. There's plenty of ways to balance without taking out something so interesting from the game. The easiest way would be to leave it to the mapmakers to make maps that will balance it. As previously stated, we should aim for lots of imbalance that eventually equalize each other instead of everything being balanced and game being boring. If I were at blizzard I would see all these bugs and exploits and keep them in the game since they are very interesting and require lots of micro.
On July 14 2010 00:23 Lexpar wrote: I guess muta micro is a pathetic exploit in BW then? It's extremely similar.
Except you not only have to do the targeted clicking, you have to retreat them back and forth, and you are capped at 11 mutas. Stimmed marines with medics will melt the mutas.
The Void Rays you have no cap, you don't have to worry about moving them, just queue the attack from one to another. Focus fire isn't some incredible micro trick man.
PD is referring to the queued attack trick -- so long as the group of void rays can kill the target in one hit, they can level a group of those targets in a matter of seconds with no attack cooldown.
On July 14 2010 00:52 Sanguinarius wrote: You cant Que the attacks, you actually have to micro them back and forth for it to work
I'm talking about the probe smacking video
the fazing likely isn't going to matter on BNet
Flee the forces in different directions the qued voidrays will chase in the specified que order, space them out so they have to fly around too much and then focus down with the other ones. Alternatively, if you have alot of stimmed marines make sure to run them away from the voidrays so theres no chance to que up, then run in, snipe a voidray and run away
On July 14 2010 00:52 Sanguinarius wrote: You cant Que the attacks, you actually have to micro them back and forth for it to work
I'm talking about the probe smacking video
the fazing likely isn't going to matter on BNet
Flee the forces in different directions the qued voidrays will chase in the specified que order, space them out so they have to fly around too much and then focus down with the other ones. Alternatively, if you have alot of stimmed marines make sure to run them away from the voidrays so theres no chance to que up, then run in, snipe a voidray and run away
Its not like the person with void rays won't control theres either....
On July 14 2010 00:52 Sanguinarius wrote: You cant Que the attacks, you actually have to micro them back and forth for it to work
I'm talking about the probe smacking video
the fazing likely isn't going to matter on BNet
Flee the forces in different directions the qued voidrays will chase in the specified que order, space them out so they have to fly around too much and then focus down with the other ones. Alternatively, if you have alot of stimmed marines make sure to run them away from the voidrays so theres no chance to que up, then run in, snipe a voidray and run away
Its not like the person with void rays won't control theres either....
I think his point was that it will make queuing not only ineffective but disastrous.
On July 14 2010 01:03 roemy wrote: what is this muta exploit people keep comparing this to? did it multiply effective damage by 3 or more, too?
I believe they're talking about broodwar, where you would group your 11 mutalisk with an overlord/burrowed zergling/larva. What happens is that as long as you keep moving around, your mutas will stack.
It makes it harder for your opponent to target and kill your mutas.
On July 14 2010 01:03 roemy wrote: what is this muta exploit people keep comparing this to? did it multiply effective damage by 3 or more, too?
I believe they're talking about broodwar, where you would group your 11 mutalisk with an overlord/burrowed zergling/larva. What happens is that as long as you keep moving around, your mutas will stack.
It makes it harder for your opponent to target and kill your mutas.
It was a lot more complicated than that. Although it was harder, it was also a lot stronger of a benefit to micro than these void ray tricks are and it ended up working out very well.
ah yes, i remember something like that. i don't see how it'd be "stronger" per se. less vulnerable mayhap. but certainly not increasing dps by a factor of >3
On July 14 2010 00:52 Sanguinarius wrote: You cant Que the attacks, you actually have to micro them back and forth for it to work
I'm talking about the probe smacking video
the fazing likely isn't going to matter on BNet
Flee the forces in different directions the qued voidrays will chase in the specified que order, space them out so they have to fly around too much and then focus down with the other ones. Alternatively, if you have alot of stimmed marines make sure to run them away from the voidrays so theres no chance to que up, then run in, snipe a voidray and run away
Its not like the person with void rays won't control theres either....
Furthermore, splitting your forces splits your damage output as well, whereas the void rays are going to stay grouped together. With the Fleet Beacon upgrade those suckers are fast too.
i noticed a while ago that VRs have no weapon cooldown, but did not realize the full potential. Thank you for explaining these tricks and making it very clear to understand. =)
ya so basically an army of 8 voidrays can instamelt any army of any composition. after vanes upgrade, the moment you see VR coming, its over.
btw, this reminds me of the old reaver dropship trick. basically if you drop a reaver, it will fire instantly. so the trick is to pick up and drop in quick succession. this way you can fire all 5 or 10 scarabs within 1 or 2 seconds. blizz eventually patched that though >.<
I am kind of surprised that this is just now reaching TL.net. Back when VR's were getting huge calls for nerfs this was discovered when people were testing mass VR against mass marine to see if it was still viable to use marines. Naturally, because of this mechanic, it was deemed not viable.
Also, the only way it works as described in the OP is if you have the number of VR's needed to one shot a unit. So, going against marines, you need 9 unupgraded VR's. Against Stalkers, you need 32. If you are only 1 short, it drastically changes the amount of damage that they deal and how quickly as they now have to wait for their attack period before the next shot (unless you right click spam on different units).
On July 14 2010 06:45 ragnasaur wrote: i couldnt even kill 1 queen with 1 void ray while spamming between a queen and drones last night, has this been nerfed?
Nope.
I dont think its quite as effective in smaller numbers though. So 1v1 unless you can click more than 6 times in a second (I think the attack period of a VR is like .9 seconds or something) it wont be as good.
this is why ive been saying void rays are overpowered since day 1 of beta. and now this pops up to make then more powerful then God tier units. G fucking G.
On July 14 2010 07:09 Ballistixz wrote: this is why ive been saying void rays are overpowered since day 1 of beta. and now this pops up to make then more powerful then God tier units. G fucking G.
I'm pretty sure this trick isn't very useful because most people don't have time in the middle of the game to sit there clicking repeatedly with void rays. You can sit there and do that cute micro trick to kill my units 30% faster while i macro up. We'll see who wins.
Once you discount the trick, why are VR's overpowered? I say Muta's confer much more of an advantage and are ten times more difficult to scout and counter. (Build stalkers to stop the mutas? MASS LING! Build collossi to stop the lings? Corruptors! etc)
On July 14 2010 07:09 Ballistixz wrote: this is why ive been saying void rays are overpowered since day 1 of beta. and now this pops up to make then more powerful then God tier units. G fucking G.
I'm pretty sure this trick isn't very useful because most people don't have time in the middle of the game to sit there clicking repeatedly with void rays. You can sit there and do that cute micro trick to kill my units 30% faster while i macro up. We'll see who wins.
Once you discount the trick, why are VR's overpowered? I say Muta's confer much more of an advantage and are ten times more difficult to scout and counter. (Build stalkers to stop the mutas? MASS LING! Build collossi to stop the lings? Corruptors! etc)
that rly wouldnt be the point. i can send in a few voids, instantly wipe out ur mineral line and fall back. ur units will never get there faster then i can kill ur entire line. and if they do get there u just instantly wipe those out to. if u even try to put a spore/turret/cannon there then its just a good target to charge up on. void rays needs to be fix, end of story.
mutas do have the same affect, but the diffrence between mutas and void rays is that mutas cant instantly vaporize an entire army/base in just a few seconds where as void rays can and will barely take any dmg in the process cuz they kill so fast. once void are charged up there almost impossible to stop. and this is without this new micro trick called "fazing" btw.
On July 14 2010 06:41 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am kind of surprised that this is just now reaching TL.net. Back when VR's were getting huge calls for nerfs this was discovered when people were testing mass VR against mass marine to see if it was still viable to use marines. Naturally, because of this mechanic, it was deemed not viable.
Also, the only way it works as described in the OP is if you have the number of VR's needed to one shot a unit. So, going against marines, you need 9 unupgraded VR's. Against Stalkers, you need 32. If you are only 1 short, it drastically changes the amount of damage that they deal and how quickly as they now have to wait for their attack period before the next shot (unless you right click spam on different units).
how much does +1 air attack affect the amount of rays you need? just for theorys sake, say you forgo warpgate and get +1 air instead. Would it be significant enough to warrant a later warpgate?
On July 14 2010 07:09 Ballistixz wrote: this is why ive been saying void rays are overpowered since day 1 of beta. and now this pops up to make then more powerful then God tier units. G fucking G.
I'm pretty sure this trick isn't very useful because most people don't have time in the middle of the game to sit there clicking repeatedly with void rays. You can sit there and do that cute micro trick to kill my units 30% faster while i macro up. We'll see who wins.
Once you discount the trick, why are VR's overpowered? I say Muta's confer much more of an advantage and are ten times more difficult to scout and counter. (Build stalkers to stop the mutas? MASS LING! Build collossi to stop the lings? Corruptors! etc)
that rly wouldnt be the point. i can send in a few voids, instantly wipe out ur mineral line and fall back. ur units will never get there faster then i can kill ur entire line. and if they do get there u just instantly wipe those out to. if u even try to put a spore/turret/cannon there then its just a good target to charge up on. void rays needs to be fix, end of story.
mutas do have the same affect, but the diffrence between mutas and void rays is that mutas cant instantly vaporize an entire army/base in just a few seconds where as void rays can and will barely take any dmg in the process cuz they kill so fast. once void are charged up there almost impossible to stop. and this is without this new micro trick called "fazing" btw.
So please tell me how to stop it, because 8 voidrays just killed of 35 marines, 8 missile turrets and 4 vikings in about what, 8 seconds?
oh yay quoted the wrong guy, ment to quote the guy above you.
On July 14 2010 06:41 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am kind of surprised that this is just now reaching TL.net. Back when VR's were getting huge calls for nerfs this was discovered when people were testing mass VR against mass marine to see if it was still viable to use marines. Naturally, because of this mechanic, it was deemed not viable.
Also, the only way it works as described in the OP is if you have the number of VR's needed to one shot a unit. So, going against marines, you need 9 unupgraded VR's. Against Stalkers, you need 32. If you are only 1 short, it drastically changes the amount of damage that they deal and how quickly as they now have to wait for their attack period before the next shot (unless you right click spam on different units).
how much does +1 air attack affect the amount of rays you need? just for theorys sake, say you forgo warpgate and get +1 air instead. Would it be significant enough to warrant a later warpgate?
Its pretty simple math, +1 upgrade puts them at 6 dmg instead of 5 dmg. So, 8 +1 upgraded VR will start 1 shotting marines instead of 9. 27 will one shot stalkers instead of 32.
HP of unit/Dmg of VR = # of VR's needed (rounded up to the nearest whole number).
This void ray trick is pretty nifty in the right hands...
I'd say it should stay if there are still viable (and reasonable) counters if a person gets up to 8 voids or whatever. I play Terran and my number one counter to voids is vikings (due to the xtra dmg vs. armored). My concern is that now I will need like twice as many vikings as I normally did before this trick was found.
I'm not THAT good (silver league stuff), but I know how to target and I always do with my vikings. However, I think that it would be wrong if I needed 3X as many vikings to take out a fleet of voids if both the vikes and voids are fully upgraded.
Any thoughts on the matter?
btw, found this video on a faze situation...pretty funny...not sure how representative it is of a realistic situation, but it's pretty funny regardless
On July 14 2010 06:41 TheRabidDeer wrote: I am kind of surprised that this is just now reaching TL.net. Back when VR's were getting huge calls for nerfs this was discovered when people were testing mass VR against mass marine to see if it was still viable to use marines. Naturally, because of this mechanic, it was deemed not viable.
Also, the only way it works as described in the OP is if you have the number of VR's needed to one shot a unit. So, going against marines, you need 9 unupgraded VR's. Against Stalkers, you need 32. If you are only 1 short, it drastically changes the amount of damage that they deal and how quickly as they now have to wait for their attack period before the next shot (unless you right click spam on different units).
how much does +1 air attack affect the amount of rays you need? just for theorys sake, say you forgo warpgate and get +1 air instead. Would it be significant enough to warrant a later warpgate?
I've been testing a build that forgoes the warp gate upgrade in exchange for the +1. It works brilliantly against terrans i've come up against.
I also DON'T think voidrays are overpowered. They're extremely expensive, and if you get caught with only one or two of them out, then they're probably going down.
On July 15 2010 01:15 trickee wrote: btw, found this video on a faze situation...pretty funny...not sure how representative it is of a realistic situation, but it's pretty funny regardless + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PAmLv5qKaQ
I don't think that's fazing. Marines just die really fast to 50 trijillions VRs so they keep switching targets. He's not clicking anywhere.
edit: oh well, yeah the same principle applies. Sorry.
Ok, well I really didn't mean much by the video...I just thought it was funny...but thanks for the clarification. I'm just wondering about the viking thing.
On July 15 2010 01:30 trickee wrote: I'm just wondering about the viking thing.
We have to assume that if he has time to micro his void rays, you have time to micro your vikings. Having a longer range and being faster should mean that you will win every pure viking vs pure voidray battle.
On July 15 2010 01:30 trickee wrote: Ok, well I really didn't mean much by the video...I just thought it was funny...but thanks for the clarification. I'm just wondering about the viking thing.
On July 15 2010 01:30 trickee wrote: I'm just wondering about the viking thing.
We have to assume that if he has time to micro his void rays, you have time to micro your vikings. Having a longer range and being faster should mean that you will win every pure viking vs pure voidray battle.
Its funny void rays are described as a surgical unit, and that technique you've found is even more fitting. Exellent find, i can see this being used more in higher tiers of play for sure
On July 14 2010 06:45 ragnasaur wrote: i couldnt even kill 1 queen with 1 void ray while spamming between a queen and drones last night, has this been nerfed?
I dont think its quite as effective in smaller numbers though. So 1v1 unless you can click more than 6 times in a second (I think the attack period of a VR is like .9 seconds or something) it wont be as good.
On July 14 2010 06:45 ragnasaur wrote: i couldnt even kill 1 queen with 1 void ray while spamming between a queen and drones last night, has this been nerfed?
Fazing doesn't increase the damage done to a single target, it just does equal damage to additional targets. Think of it as making your VRs AOE to as many units as you can click in 1 tick.
On July 16 2010 16:00 eNyoron wrote: Went against a toss that used mass charged void rays with fazing in a team game. It's horribly broken and overpowered.
You can tell right away that SC2 isn't going to be successful. Its going to be about as good as WC3, especially with blizzard micromanaging every aspect of the game that they don't like.
On July 17 2010 03:00 hacpee wrote: You can tell right away that SC2 isn't going to be successful. Its going to be about as good as WC3, especially with blizzard micromanaging every aspect of the game that they don't like.
Joke post? Fazing is ridiculously broken and needed to be fixed.
Has anyone discovered if this trick also works with sentries? They have a similar attack animation, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that it would. I can't test it out now because I'm at work though.
On July 16 2010 16:00 eNyoron wrote: Went against a toss that used mass charged void rays with fazing in a team game. It's horribly broken and overpowered.
I thought it was proven by several people earlier in the thread that fazing won't work with charging.
On July 16 2010 16:00 eNyoron wrote: Went against a toss that used mass charged void rays with fazing in a team game. It's horribly broken and overpowered.
I thought it was proven by several people earlier in the thread that fazing won't work with charging.
That's what I thought too, until a handful of void rays insta gibbed my viking fleet. Normally that would require about 25 void rays, but he was able to do it with about 10.
On July 16 2010 16:00 eNyoron wrote: Went against a toss that used mass charged void rays with fazing in a team game. It's horribly broken and overpowered.
I thought it was proven by several people earlier in the thread that fazing won't work with charging.
That was pre-patch. For some reason, it works now.
If it works with charging now, couldn't we go back to the old mechanic where it only worked uncharged. I could see charged fazing (grats on the name btw) being horribly broken, but uncharged fazing just makes Void Rays a viable early option.
Is fazing a "new" thing? The reason I ask is because I used to keep my void rays charged when moving short distances by attacking one of my own units and stopping quickly. Now whenever I try that I either take a large amount of damage or lose one instantly.
On July 18 2010 05:52 Whole wrote: If it works with charging now, couldn't we go back to the old mechanic where it only worked uncharged. I could see charged fazing (grats on the name btw) being horribly broken, but uncharged fazing just makes Void Rays a viable early option.
This.
It working with charged is realllly broken, and less strategic, but the old mechanic was awesome.
On July 18 2010 07:34 sikyon wrote: Damage on Void rays is now front loaded on the charge, specifically to prevent charge from building up like that.
Edit: And therefore fazing works when charged now.
Seriously Blizzard needs to stop "fixing" stupid crap that doesn't need fixing
On July 19 2010 08:28 ZlaSHeR wrote: Good to know that thsi fucking glitch just made someone with every advantage and 7 racks fast expand fully pumping out marines can't stop 4 void rays and causes someone their spot in ITL.
Especially considering the dev team said they were going to fix this and then we get to see people abusing it.
Please don't make bad assumptions to attack another player. He obviously charged them on the rocks between the bases and kept the charge by attacking his own zealots.
And are you really surprised that FOUR fully charged voidrays annihilated only un-upgraded marines that were trapped by forcefields and were attacking the zealots anyway. Use the unit tester to replicate the situation and you'll realise that rays do ridiculous amounts of damage even when attack moved, as they're supposed to.
And I like Lz, but even ignoring the first game, he lost the second in an unequivocally fair match, so claiming that this glitch caused him to be eliminated is a gross exaggeration.
Sigh. I figured that was a funny bug but when finally playing AGAINST this for first time I really exploded. This absolutely turns around any possible game if you have a chance to get even 6 VRs. They're just plain ridiculous, if normally 10corruptor vs 6 VR should be fair match? Think again, corruptors get to do one focusfire before they're all dead. Yes, that took <2sec. Fast mouse2clicking really ain't that hard that you should be awarded for this kind of "micro".
Well, it's really good to see blizz is aware of this. I'm really sad if they haven't been able to fix this when retail comes, because losing to this is just beyond ridiculous. I've played 2k games of sc2 and while sometimes stuff feels imbalanced, it's different. This is obvious bug and not just overpowered.
Wouldn't it be possible with this glitch, if I understand it correctly, to design an AI to make a void ray switch targets like thousands of times per second and instantly kill everything in range? That would be so awesome.
On July 20 2010 09:54 tsuxiit wrote: Wouldn't it be possible with this glitch, if I understand it correctly, to design an AI to make a void ray switch targets like thousands of times per second and instantly kill everything in range? That would be so awesome.
Sounds simple enough. A bit offtopic to question but if you had critical mass of VRs that are enough to oneshot every unit opponent has, I believe you could before fight rallypoint them to kill all opposing units. So let's assume he has relatively low hp units like mass marines, I believe in theory you could kill 50 marines in 1sec with like 6 VRs if you just queued targetswitches before battle No cooldown should be abused easily with any sort of scripts.
On July 17 2010 03:00 hacpee wrote: You can tell right away that SC2 isn't going to be successful. Its going to be about as good as WC3, especially with blizzard micromanaging every aspect of the game that they don't like.
Joke post? Fazing is ridiculously broken and needed to be fixed.
Its kind of overpowered now. Because terran cant really scout the starport as it can be hidden everywhere on the map. Mauraders have become almost useless in this MU as zealots+VR just owns a 50-50 composition of marine/mauruders. If you do the 1/1/1 build it seems that you dont have enough AA unless you get an initial viking out instead of the typical raven or banshee. And really against good protoss players it should be impossible to tell whether they are going 4gate allin/ 2gate/starport, or 3gate/robo, as they can hide the gates, or they could even start building 2 gates, then cancel them after the terran has scanned them, and bulding a startport immediately after.
I think when the game goes out, and most god protoss players will abuse the VR, and make it so that the terran never can scout wheter the protoss goes starport or gateways, the terran player will have do something like FE + mass marines early game with 2-3 bunkers, and get an early stim + combat shield.
But the mass marine strat is very easily scouted, and the terran has a very little timing window before the protoss gets storm which pretty much owns mass marines. Probably the only thing the terran can do then is get some cloaked ghosts and EMP the HT before attacking when its late game, or just transistion into a mech force.
On July 20 2010 22:40 Hider wrote: Its kind of overpowered now. Because terran cant really scout the starport as it can be hidden everywhere on the map. Mauraders have become almost useless in this MU as zealots+VR just owns a 50-50 composition of marine/mauruders. If you do the 1/1/1 build it seems that you dont have enough AA unless you get an initial viking out instead of the typical raven or banshee. And really against good protoss players it should be impossible to tell whether they are going 4gate allin/ 2gate/starport, or 3gate/robo, as they can hide the gates, or they could even start building 2 gates, then cancel them after the terran has scanned them, and bulding a startport immediately after.
I think when the game goes out, and most god protoss players will abuse the VR, and make it so that the terran never can scout wheter the protoss goes starport or gateways, the terran player will have do something like FE + mass marines early game with 2-3 bunkers, and get an early stim + combat shield.
But the mass marine strat is very easily scouted, and the terran has a very little timing window before the protoss gets storm which pretty much owns mass marines. Probably the only thing the terran can do then is get some cloaked ghosts and EMP the HT before attacking when its late game, or just transistion into a mech force.
I don't think this is that over powered. the only advantage a protoss has is in the early game where he only has to focus on a few voidrays. you can't expect a protoss to be fazing in the middle of a big battle where it's more important to position units and cast spells. voidrays are easily countered by vikings, and hydralisks can deal with voidrays even with fazing cost efficiently at a realistic ratio. protoss is the race with the weakest air units, not that it's pure ground force is much stronger than terran's. Taking out all the micro element in SC2 will make the game easier for the newer players, but too boring at the professional level.
Lol i tried this "fazing" and all that happened was that my VR's would alternate pointing directions without firing. I think i was clicking between the untis too fast...anyways, not as broken as i thought it would be.
On July 21 2010 04:25 sAfuRos wrote: Lol i tried this "fazing" and all that happened was that my VR's would alternate pointing directions without firing. I think i was clicking between the untis too fast...anyways, not as broken as i thought it would be.
The targets have to be within a certain arc for it to be effective. If they're both in front of the VR, it will never stop shooting.
gj FaZe, I have certainly called it FaZing when explaining it to my friends and have certainly found good use for it. I applaud your contribution and love that it shall be noted in the books as FaZing!
ok so for the first video swaping back and forth would this work for buildings as well? (my guess is yes but i am not 100%) and also does switching between two hydras or buildings charge up voidrays?
This is just animation canceling with void rays. I'm impressed that you noticed this though. Nearly double the damage output if you can't charge or are already charged.
On July 20 2010 09:54 tsuxiit wrote: Wouldn't it be possible with this glitch, if I understand it correctly, to design an AI to make a void ray switch targets like thousands of times per second and instantly kill everything in range? That would be so awesome.
Sounds simple enough. A bit offtopic to question but if you had critical mass of VRs that are enough to oneshot every unit opponent has, I believe you could before fight rallypoint them to kill all opposing units. So let's assume he has relatively low hp units like mass marines, I believe in theory you could kill 50 marines in 1sec with like 6 VRs if you just queued targetswitches before battle No cooldown should be abused easily with any sort of scripts.
I think the reason the pros aren't fazing with their VRs is because Browder pretty much said they were going to "fix" it. As such, it's not entirely legit play, and I don't think the pros want people to look back and say "Well yeah, of course he won, he was using blatant exploits!". Granted, I admit to not knowing much about the history of the pro scene. Perhaps these sort of exploits have been abused for ages and people don't really care. Hell, I remember when you could land buildings on top of Sieged Tanks or put a building anywhere you could see with a trapped Drone. I don't know if any of this kinda stuff was used in Tournaments though.
On July 22 2010 17:11 Sylvr wrote: I think the reason the pros aren't fazing with their VRs is because Browder pretty much said they were going to "fix" it. As such, it's not entirely legit play, and I don't think the pros want people to look back and say "Well yeah, of course he won, he was using blatant exploits!". Granted, I admit to not knowing much about the history of the pro scene. Perhaps these sort of exploits have been abused for ages and people don't really care. Hell, I remember when you could land buildings on top of Sieged Tanks or put a building anywhere you could see with a trapped Drone. I don't know if any of this kinda stuff was used in Tournaments though.
I haven't seen any article saying that he'd fix it, but i'll take your word for it. but would fixing fazing be really necessary? you can't really use fazing when the opponent marines move towards you to shoot, and for 1voidray vs 6-7ish marines, i think it's wise for the voidray to back off, even if it's charged and know more rines are coming. by the time he has 2-3 voidrays, turrets will be nearly ready, and vikings would be out, completely shutting down their ability to faze. it is especially difficult to faze moving targets, which, in most cases, the marines will be moving and shooting towards the voidrays, and considering that it takes full attention to faze(can't rearrange units, cast spells, or even build units while fazing), I think i'll be okay to leave fazing, i mean they could have fixed stop lurkers, mutalisk staking in SC1, but they left them alone. but I do understand if they have to fix it to remove any "bug" before the launch.
It looks like fixing this bug is going to be a catch 22. I'll outline the ways I think it could go:
The reason damage was front-loaded on charged void rays was to fix the exploit where you could move across the map with charged void rays, then blow the crap out of someone's base. Now, it has introduced fazing on charged void rays.
There are two ways they might try to solve this problem: either take away the front loaded damage, so that there is a ramp up before damage is dealt, or decrease the tick time for void rays so they would do less damage but more frequently. Obviously, the first fix would reintroduce the ability to keep yourself charged across the map.
What if we reduce the tick to 0.1s or as fast as the best Korean could click? Well, then the void ray would have to do less damage per attack. This runs into issues with armor - effectively, the void ray needs to ignore armor, or its attack will be completely useless if the opponent has some armor upgrades.
The only other conceivable way to get around this is to have void rays use different attack mechanics on friendly vs enemy units (front loaded damage on friendly, ramp up on enemy.) But that would just be really weird and inconsistent.
just leave it the way it is, its not easy my any means to do it and I don't really see any difference between this and the muta micro used in brood war which certainly didnt make brood war imba
Guys, stop freaking out about it when we don't even have any reason to believe it's an issue. I don't see why we have any reason to believe it NEEDS to be fixed at the moment.
On July 23 2010 13:09 trancey wrote: What is the cooldown of a charged voidray? (ie. how long does a charged voidray have to be not attacking in order to reset to uncharged). .
Five seconds max I think. Probably 3 or 4 seconds.
why solve it? this seems like the new muta micro..
I think charged fazing is too good, while uncharged is just balanced if you have the APM for it. I don't know how they could fix it to make it that charged void rays can't faze AND keep charged while floating across the map.
Anyone who thinks this should stay in is retarded, im sorry.
btw, This video is old as hell..
On July 05 2010 23:00 JamSan wrote: Charged rays definitely don't do any damage immediately, allowing you to maintain charge on your own units/structures as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6iAXlkYxB4
Using this technique 1 void ray beats 4 unmicroed marines with combat shield, even stimmed. Its great fun to use.
Also, first post
Is it possible that blizzard was patching this so that you couldn't self charge without a cost to bldg shields via making them do damage upon first target ignoring normal cooldown/dps.? I think this is what happened.
On July 23 2010 13:09 trancey wrote: What is the cooldown of a charged voidray? (ie. how long does a charged voidray have to be not attacking in order to reset to uncharged). .
Five seconds max I think. Probably 3 or 4 seconds.
why solve it? this seems like the new muta micro..
I think charged fazing is too good, while uncharged is just balanced if you have the APM for it. I don't know how they could fix it to make it that charged void rays can't faze AND keep charged while floating across the map.
I tested it myself, it's roughly 2-3? seconds. I'll fraps it so there's a more real time timer.
Hold the phone, whats the difference between what you showed and focus firing? forgive me if im being totally noob, but the vid where you take 11 sec to kill them. thats just cause of the focus firing right, its not some crazy thing that happens only cause you shift+clicked them right?
dustin browder said it will be fixed in the best buy interview too lazy to dig up the link, but its easy to find the transcript. he also said there wont be any patches for months after release unless it's an emergency, so it'll be around for a while.
Hmm. First of, sorry for not having the time to read the whole thread, but I wanted to post anyways since I thought the discovered tech to be very interesting.
From what I understood of it, the void ray can damage as many units the owner player can click in it's attack cooldown time. If this is indeed true (and I would love if someone tried it, which is easier if playing in a slow speed game of course - don't know if you people thought about this game speed aspect) this can as people said be game breaking when there are multi target encounters.
This bug in particular reminds me of a bug I noticed very recently in an old version of StarCraft (which was fixed later on, don't know in which patch) where a unit could use it's ground and air attack with independent cooldowns (for exemple, a dragoon could fire a tank and a battlecruiser at the same time if it switched targets mid-animation) effectively doubling it's damage output in certain circumstances (ground and air unit in unit range). For those who didn't know about it and want to check this bug out, just log into SC 1.0 and try it.
As I mentioned earlier, you guys have to reconsider the idea of leaving this bug in the game, since if what I believe actually happens, people playing in slower game speeds will have a bigger advantage, and even in fastest speed, pros would be able to click somewhere near 4 units before the cooldown finishes, which instantly multiplies the VR's damage output by 4.
Nevertheless, this topic is extremely important IMHO, and I found the posted videos very cool also, so I thank the OP for those . I really wish I had access to the game now thought just to test this out.
Another question. i never played BW online too often. whats considered a good muta micro, cause people are saying this is gonna be the new muta micro and im like... huh?
On July 23 2010 13:33 Tempora wrote: Hold the phone, whats the difference between what you showed and focus firing? forgive me if im being totally noob, but the vid where you take 11 sec to kill them. thats just cause of the focus firing right, its not some crazy thing that happens only cause you shift+clicked them right?
Since I'm reading the thread right now, maybe I could explain this one.
Actually, no, it's not the same, in this particular case.
When the unit the void ray is attacking dies, it instantly changes target and does the initial damage to the new target. Since it will keep doing this until every unit is dead (and it will instantly do this also, because they are focus firing and killing the probes with the initial damage only) they will waste no time in the idle phase (the time between damage pulses).
If they are attack moved, most likely some will attack different probes, resulting in the probes being attacked not dieing with the burst of initial damage only. This will end up making the VRs who did not kill their targets wait for the next pulse to kill them, which in turn will result in much less damage than the method mentioned earlier.
Hopefully I could be clear enough with my bad English.
On July 23 2010 13:00 heheman3000 wrote: It looks like fixing this bug is going to be a catch 22. I'll outline the ways I think it could go:
The reason damage was front-loaded on charged void rays was to fix the exploit where you could move across the map with charged void rays, then blow the crap out of someone's base. Now, it has introduced fazing on charged void rays.
There are two ways they might try to solve this problem: either take away the front loaded damage, so that there is a ramp up before damage is dealt, or decrease the tick time for void rays so they would do less damage but more frequently. Obviously, the first fix would reintroduce the ability to keep yourself charged across the map.
What if we reduce the tick to 0.1s or as fast as the best Korean could click? Well, then the void ray would have to do less damage per attack. This runs into issues with armor - effectively, the void ray needs to ignore armor, or its attack will be completely useless if the opponent has some armor upgrades.
The only other conceivable way to get around this is to have void rays use different attack mechanics on friendly vs enemy units (front loaded damage on friendly, ramp up on enemy.) But that would just be really weird and inconsistent.
Anyone else have other ideas?
Or they could probably just make it so the damage can't occur more than once per tick regardless of the target, which would make it front-loaded damage only if the timer is up.
Edit: Also known as a Global Cooldown.
Edit2: Actually, I suppose that's not global at all, but a unique cooldown per Void Ray...
Since I'm reading the thread right now, maybe I could explain this one.
Actually, no, it's not the same, in this particular case.
When the unit the void ray is attacking dies, it instantly changes target and does the initial damage to the new target. Since it will keep doing this until every unit is dead (and it will instantly do this also, because they are focus firing and killing the probes with the initial damage only) they will waste no time in the idle phase (the time between damage pulses).
If they are attack moved, most likely some will attack different probes, resulting in the probes being attacked not dieing with the burst of initial damage only. This will end up making the VRs who did not kill their targets wait for the next pulse to kill them, which in turn will result in much less damage than the method mentioned earlier.
Hopefully I could be clear enough with my bad English.
haha thank you sir. yes. you made it more understandable :D
On July 23 2010 14:54 SC2Phoenix wrote: Dont counter 50 trillion void rays with mass marine then. I dont really see an issue here.
except marines are genereally considered a good counter against voidrays, cost wise, and speed wise
marines take down voidrays so fast its ridiculous. Imo void should have just a tiny bit more def againts marines. I understand we can't let voidray dominate early game but I mean come on... marines , reactor, vikings , viking reactors, ugh
I was playing around with this recently just for fun and something occurred to me... This works because you're abusing the lack of a cooldown between switching targets right? What if you used that same principle but did it on a single target? instead of just focusing on it, couldn't you attack it, hit hold position to momentarily stop the attack and then click on the unit again? If done properly, couldn't you effectively reduce the cooldown between damage counters to as fast as you can execute this move? Someone please test this out, I tried it out and I think it works, but I would like some backup/confirmation
I always queue attacks when i have more than 4 or so voids, it speeds up killing by so much. It also reduces the time it would take for you to click the target after the previous was killed
Just so we can clarify, it's about 1/2-way into the transcript:
Guest-347: As I hope your development team is aware, certain "tricks" have been found recently by the community. These include Void Ray "Fazing" wherin a player can manually attack different targets in rapid succession to artificially increase damage output, and a series of commands that enables (limited) infestor underground casting of Fungal Growth and Nueral Parasite. Is the dev team aware of these issues and how are they going to be addressed before launch?
DustinB: We are aware of the Void Ray fazing and we will be addressing that. I was not personally aware of underground casting of Infestor abilities. I'll go take a look.=)
I've played around with charged fazing in the unit tester with 1 void ray against 3 vikings. Without micro, a precharged void ray loses but kills 2 vikings and puts 1 into the orange. I have not been able to consistently improve this using fazing. Maybe 1 out of 10 trys would make the extra 2 pings of damage and make the void ray wins. Another 1 out of 5 trys ended up as a double kill. But sometimes, you misclick or faze wrong, and you end up doing worse than normal. Basically you have to faze well enough to overcome the fact that you are not focus firing your damage, otherwise there is no improvment.
Basically, after 35ish tries, there is no relaible gain with charged fazing in that scenario. The dps i can get is higher, but it isn't enough to warrant fazing. I engourage people to try this and see what result they get.
On July 24 2010 08:18 Chronopolis wrote: I've played around with charged fazing in the unit tester with 1 void ray against 3 vikings. Without micro, a precharged void ray loses but kills 2 vikings and puts 1 into the orange. I have not been able to consistently improve this using fazing. Maybe 1 out of 10 trys would make the extra 2 pings of damage and make the void ray wins. Another 1 out of 5 trys ended up as a double kill. But sometimes, you misclick or faze wrong, and you end up doing worse than normal. Basically you have to faze well enough to overcome the fact that you are not focus firing your damage, otherwise there is no improvment.
Basically, after 35ish tries, there is no relaible gain with charged fazing in that scenario. The dps i can get is higher, but it isn't enough to warrant fazing. I engourage people to try this and see what result they get.
On July 24 2010 08:18 Chronopolis wrote: I've played around with charged fazing in the unit tester with 1 void ray against 3 vikings. Without micro, a precharged void ray loses but kills 2 vikings and puts 1 into the orange. I have not been able to consistently improve this using fazing. Maybe 1 out of 10 trys would make the extra 2 pings of damage and make the void ray wins. Another 1 out of 5 trys ended up as a double kill. But sometimes, you misclick or faze wrong, and you end up doing worse than normal. Basically you have to faze well enough to overcome the fact that you are not focus firing your damage, otherwise there is no improvment.
Basically, after 35ish tries, there is no relaible gain with charged fazing in that scenario. The dps i can get is higher, but it isn't enough to warrant fazing. I engourage people to try this and see what result they get.
really? i was able to do it fine 0.o
O.o I tried it again, same method, and it worked as excepted. wtf? Apparently you just have to click faster and misclick less. Sometimes you actually end up selecting the viking instead of attacking it with the void ray.
On July 27 2010 22:28 DTown wrote: Does anyone know if this has been fixed on release? What about the infestor underground casting trick?
I actually tried void ray one game last night and I could no longer do this. I was using it against two queens and there seems to be a delay before you can fire again.
i was messing around w/fazing and found that PvT its amazingly effective in removing supply depots quickly ^___^ you can literally kill 3-4 depots before the terran even reacts (assuming you click fast enough)
I'm glad glitches like these are being fixed, including burrowed Infestor casting even though I play Zerg. The game should be able to stand on the foundation of it's intended design and not these quirky bugs.
On July 28 2010 03:13 SnakeChomp wrote: I'm glad glitches like these are being fixed, including burrowed Infestor casting even though I play Zerg. The game should be able to stand on the foundation of it's intended design and not these quirky bugs.
Yeah, just think about how bad Brood War would have been if you were able to clump Mutalisks together, and harass like that.
People keep saying to "wait for the game to develop, and people will start to discover micro tricks and stuff to make the game better! Starcraft took 10 years to develop, after all!" And then when micro tricks are finally discovered in SC2, apparently Blizzard takes them out? Thats just great.
On July 27 2010 22:28 DTown wrote: Does anyone know if this has been fixed on release? What about the infestor underground casting trick?
I actually tried void ray one game last night and I could no longer do this. I was using it against two queens and there seems to be a delay before you can fire again.
WHY...dammit it was something that took a LOT of skill to do right why "fix" it it felt like BW again when i was doing it
On July 28 2010 03:13 SnakeChomp wrote: I'm glad glitches like these are being fixed, including burrowed Infestor casting even though I play Zerg. The game should be able to stand on the foundation of it's intended design and not these quirky bugs.
I don't believe blizzard wants to fix this one. They even patched it in so that fazing works with second stage and third stage charged up voidrays. Pretty much, this means that they like this kinda bug since it actually requires skill and attention to pull off.
Can someone confirm that fazing does or does not work after release? My preorder hasn't arrived yet so I can't check myself, but I REALLY want to be sure it still works.
On July 27 2010 22:28 DTown wrote: Does anyone know if this has been fixed on release? What about the infestor underground casting trick?
I actually tried void ray one game last night and I could no longer do this. I was using it against two queens and there seems to be a delay before you can fire again.
WHY...dammit it was something that took a LOT of skill to do right why "fix" it it felt like BW again when i was doing it
Why? ... Why?!
Because it wasn't just a "neat little trick" that let you squeeze out a little bit more DPS, it was insanely OP/IMBA/WTF. The trick straight up allows the VR to hard-counter its intended counters. Fact. There is no way Blizzard would ever let something like that stick around. Yes, it took some skill to pull off, but that is absolutely not a good enough excuse when doing it completely breaks the game. Anyone who argues that it wasn't imba really is either just completely biased or doesn't know what they are talking about. Period. It is not even comparable to muta-stacking in terms of overall affect on gameplay. So please stop whining that it should be left in because you are nostalgic over BW.
On July 27 2010 22:28 DTown wrote: Does anyone know if this has been fixed on release? What about the infestor underground casting trick?
I actually tried void ray one game last night and I could no longer do this. I was using it against two queens and there seems to be a delay before you can fire again.
WHY...dammit it was something that took a LOT of skill to do right why "fix" it it felt like BW again when i was doing it
Why? ... Why?!
Because it wasn't just a "neat little trick" that let you squeeze out a little bit more DPS, it was insanely OP/IMBA/WTF. The trick straight up allows the VR to hard-counter its intended counters. Fact. There is no way Blizzard would ever let something like that stick around. Yes, it took some skill to pull off, but that is absolutely not a good enough excuse when doing it completely breaks the game. Anyone who argues that it wasn't imba really is either just completely biased or doesn't know what they are talking about. Period. It is not even comparable to muta-stacking in terms of overall affect on gameplay. So please stop whining that it should be left in because you are nostalgic over BW.
it didnt even begin to break the game when it was only availiable when powered down...idk about when it charges up but it was pretty even on both sides w/it esp since its near impossible to faze + macro at the same time
On July 28 2010 03:13 SnakeChomp wrote: I'm glad glitches like these are being fixed, including burrowed Infestor casting even though I play Zerg. The game should be able to stand on the foundation of it's intended design and not these quirky bugs.
Yeah, just think about how bad Brood War would have been if you were able to clump Mutalisks together, and harass like that.
People keep saying to "wait for the game to develop, and people will start to discover micro tricks and stuff to make the game better! Starcraft took 10 years to develop, after all!" And then when micro tricks are finally discovered in SC2, apparently Blizzard takes them out? Thats just great.
I'm mostly convinced at this point that even emergent properties of the game are considered "outside, third party" factors and can't be allowed.
I really didn't see any fazing play used to a significant effect in phase 2. I'm wondering why people still scream IMBA at the top of their lungs about it though.
On July 27 2010 22:28 DTown wrote: Does anyone know if this has been fixed on release? What about the infestor underground casting trick?
I actually tried void ray one game last night and I could no longer do this. I was using it against two queens and there seems to be a delay before you can fire again.
WHY...dammit it was something that took a LOT of skill to do right why "fix" it it felt like BW again when i was doing it
Why? ... Why?!
Because it wasn't just a "neat little trick" that let you squeeze out a little bit more DPS, it was insanely OP/IMBA/WTF. The trick straight up allows the VR to hard-counter its intended counters. Fact. There is no way Blizzard would ever let something like that stick around. Yes, it took some skill to pull off, but that is absolutely not a good enough excuse when doing it completely breaks the game. Anyone who argues that it wasn't imba really is either just completely biased or doesn't know what they are talking about. Period. It is not even comparable to muta-stacking in terms of overall affect on gameplay. So please stop whining that it should be left in because you are nostalgic over BW.
Even if it was imbalanced, is there any good reason to completely remove it and dumb the game down, rather than embrace and balance it?
I'm wondering why people still scream IMBA at the top of their lungs about it though.
Really?
yes really...the reason for this is the fact that its amazingly hard to pull off in fact its actually easier for the defender! (easier for T/P than Z..but Z can just get another 2 queens out quick to hold off til hydras and theyre good)
SO DID THEY REMOVE IT? i don't play p and i havn't seen any p do it vs me in ladder, all this imba talk really makes trying to figure out if they removed it or not pretty annoying.
Haha, kinda funny - I've seen multiple threads refer to "fazing". I guess people caught on XD if Blizzard doesn't patch this it'll probably become a hugely used technique eventually.
I'm getting really sick of people comparing every single glitch they find to Move-shot, Hold-lurkers, and Muta-stacking. They seem to be forgetting that for every little semi-glitch mechanic they left in, they've removed half a dozen others. Remember when you could land a building and roll Siege Tanks under them and siege them up before the building finished landing so they would be inside the building? Remember when you could surround a Drone in a corner so it couldn't move and then tell it to build somewhere on the map and the building would spontaneously start building there?
What Bliz decides to leave in the game as a nifty trick, and what they decide tilts the scales too much is their decision. I thought it was a good find and it was fun to mess around with, but you really don't have to cry about every little thing they fix.
No, there is good reason people are "crying". People played the game, and finally discovered some Micro tricks you can do. Like Fazing, or the Snipe stuff with Ghosts. But as soon as these tricks are found, Blizzard takes them out. Thus far, it seems like they don't want to leave anything in the game as a "nifty trick".
On July 30 2010 22:21 Sentenal wrote: No, there is good reason people are "crying". People played the game, and finally discovered some Micro tricks you can do. Like Fazing, or the Snipe stuff with Ghosts. But as soon as these tricks are found, Blizzard takes them out. Thus far, it seems like they don't want to leave anything in the game as a "nifty trick".
Super disappointed they removed it here as well that was pretty much the only things VRs had left, now VR harass is almost pointless lol.
Too bad they removed this. As anyone who has tried it knows - it's difficult at best to pull off while macroing and microing your other units. It would have been another way to add depth and skill to the game. I'd like to see them add it back.
someone hit someone in the face for this pls, not usually my way but i'm a bit pissed right now. i not even protoss -.- lets make all units like the pheonix so we dont have to do anything anymore. I just don't understand? Noobs will never enconter this and pro's need something to do! Nice to know they are working on bugs that melt gfx cards rather than removing stuff that adds depth to the game. OH WAIT!
On July 30 2010 22:21 Sentenal wrote: No, there is good reason people are "crying". People played the game, and finally discovered some Micro tricks you can do. Like Fazing, or the Snipe stuff with Ghosts. But as soon as these tricks are found, Blizzard takes them out. Thus far, it seems like they don't want to leave anything in the game as a "nifty trick".
Super disappointed they removed it here as well that was pretty much the only things VRs had left, now VR harass is almost pointless lol.
On July 30 2010 23:00 KungKras wrote: Have anyone tried if you can faze while charged? A guy earlier in the thread said that they only removed fazing while uncharged.
now that you mention it :D i think thats exactly what happened to me in a 2v2 where i got like 200 voidrays and could only faze with the charged ones... still stupid
who needs to faze with a charged voidray? i need it to fight of 3 marines when i enter the base not when i have already charged up...
You were able to faze with a charged VR in the last patch of the Beta. Fazing was always useful because you are doubling your damage output. Even though you could win the fight without fazing, you could win with more HP leftover with fazing.
On July 30 2010 22:21 Sentenal wrote: No, there is good reason people are "crying". People played the game, and finally discovered some Micro tricks you can do. Like Fazing, or the Snipe stuff with Ghosts. But as soon as these tricks are found, Blizzard takes them out. Thus far, it seems like they don't want to leave anything in the game as a "nifty trick".
Super disappointed they removed it here as well that was pretty much the only things VRs had left, now VR harass is almost pointless lol.
they are still pretty decent but yea, that they removed this was pretty much just sad. It didnt break the game but then again it was not needed for voidrays to have this.
This was obviously a bug and I am surprised they took so long to fix it. If you can still do it while they are charged i hope they patch that very soon too.
Without tricks like this Pro-games will be superboring to watch. Wc3 has a million of those "little tricks" that really puts depth in the game and differs the real pros from the ordinary people, Blademaster windwalk jumping, tower-build-jumping, zepeline-staffing to name a few. Here's a video to prove my point.
Then of course Warcraft 3 has a lot of more variations possible with hereos, items and all that good stuff, but I really think SC2 would just do good with some of these small tricks that can really make the pros stand out, more than just with superb macro/micro.
On July 30 2010 22:21 Sentenal wrote: No, there is good reason people are "crying". People played the game, and finally discovered some Micro tricks you can do. Like Fazing, or the Snipe stuff with Ghosts. But as soon as these tricks are found, Blizzard takes them out. Thus far, it seems like they don't want to leave anything in the game as a "nifty trick".
I'm actually afraid to do tricks because I fear it will be shared to everyone and patched by Blizzard.
On July 30 2010 13:02 Sylvr wrote: I'm getting really sick of people comparing every single glitch they find to Move-shot, Hold-lurkers, and Muta-stacking. They seem to be forgetting that for every little semi-glitch mechanic they left in, they've removed half a dozen others. Remember when you could land a building and roll Siege Tanks under them and siege them up before the building finished landing so they would be inside the building? Remember when you could surround a Drone in a corner so it couldn't move and then tell it to build somewhere on the map and the building would spontaneously start building there?
What Bliz decides to leave in the game as a nifty trick, and what they decide tilts the scales too much is their decision. I thought it was a good find and it was fun to mess around with, but you really don't have to cry about every little thing they fix.
On August 01 2010 04:02 LittleeD wrote: Without tricks like this Pro-games will be superboring to watch. Wc3 has a million of those "little tricks" that really puts depth in the game and differs the real pros from the ordinary people, Blademaster windwalk jumping, tower-build-jumping, zepeline-staffing to name a few. Here's a video to prove my point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iSgwjUV750
Then of course Warcraft 3 has a lot of more variations possible with hereos, items and all that good stuff, but I really think SC2 would just do good with some of these small tricks that can really make the pros stand out, more than just with superb macro/micro.
all those tricks anyone can do. At the highest level. Its more about having an amazing awareness and knowing Exactly what your units should be doing.. every single one of them.
On July 31 2010 04:51 newbkills wrote: You were able to faze with a charged VR in the last patch of the Beta. Fazing was always useful because you are doubling your damage output. Even though you could win the fight without fazing, you could win with more HP leftover with fazing.
You can still do that, fazing does at least still work while charged. I don't really see an issue with this then, removing it from uncharged void rays were ok because well, it shouldn't do sick damage when not charged.
EPT
. This is also exceptionally powerful against marines.
Void Ray
