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Hellions cannot kill static defenses and cannot run behind mineral line with a blocked ramp.
a quick reaper rush (2-3) does not usually work midgame, but have you ever used 8-10 reapers together in midgame?
10 reapers is what, 500mineral and 500gas. Can literrally destroy not well defended expansions (1-2 cannons, 1-2 crawlers). It can definitely force opponent to send some troops to defend.
on the other hand, Hellions cannot kill static defenses. Works great if the mineral line is undefended. to equal 10reapers is only like 4 vikings, which is far from enough to kill 1 cannon/crawler. 10 reapers would equal 3 banshees
in midgame, it is easier harass with 10 reapers (as you can kill static d AND kill workers and run behind cliffs). I would use reapers > 4 vikings or 5 hellions if my main objective is to get the most workers as posible
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One of the big problems with the whole 'make a bunch in mid game to harass' is that they take a long time to construct and use up your barracks for way too long. Terran production is already limited somewhat
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Make a new Reaper-upgrade at the tech lab: remove a portion of the gas cost, and better the build time. Remove like 25 from the gas cost. Make it take a while to upgrade.
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It would be cool if they were given the ability to actually fly by some sort of t3 research.
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they're pretty cool and i'm curious to see if anyone finds a way to use them later in the game. the thing is, they level bases ridiculously fast, and are tough to catch if micro'd properly. maybe a sort of aggressive mech/bio build with mainly tanks and marines with reapers instead of marauders. reapers would make it hard for the opponent to leave his base and get aggressive because even if he destroys the main army, his base is getting leveled post haste. also in an emergency, reapers do add a lot of dps to bio if the opponent has enough light units. they do die fast but mixed in with marines and/or marauders, they die at roughly the same rate just because they're not being focus fired so they get lots of shots off.
i'm just brainstorming here - i don't know the first thing about playing terran. i'm sure there's a way to make it work though.
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I was thinking they could make reapers also benefit from combat shield (or maybe even stim?).
Maybe even give them 15-20hp instead of just 10. They would have to raise the cost of combat shields back to 150/150 though.
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I love reapers just like you OP, but they're so very costly that midgame, you NEED to make them do terrible terrible damage or else you're the one behind. 50/50 for a tiny unit is very costly, and a 40 second build time occupies your barracks for incredibly long periods of time as well. You can try to integrate them into your army, but if you're looking for damage-to-light units, I'd recommend just making a lot of hellions.
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I think part of the problem is if you look at doing some sort of reaper back door to get tech or workers, you have to ask yourself:
"would I rather have a bunch of reapers that will destroy some buildings and some workers OR would I rather invest in a medivac and a bunch of marauders which will destroy some buildings and some workers AND be useful to me later on down the road?"
yes, the marauders and medivac option is substantially more expensive, however those units will have continued usage throughout the game where its hard to imagine a scenario where the reapers will help you win any sort of real battle.
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OH and something that i think is really important about making reaper production work throughout a game - you have to keep them alive. when the reaper harass early on gets shut down by stalkers or whatever, i'd run them the hell out instead of sacrificing them for one more drone or whatever. i don't think it's a unit you can trade off for other units. when you invest in them you're investing in their speed and ability to bypass terrain.
you can add onto their numbers later, and if you keep most of them alive, as the game goes on you'll get those bigger numbers without sacrificing several production cycles in a row.
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That's the thing, the reaper simply isn't worth the minerals/gas later on. I mean, sure, it's fast, but no matter how gosu your micro is, the probability that they will go down without doing much damage mid/late-game is extremely high. It really needs some sort of upgrade that makes it either a bit more hardy, or cheaper.
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One thing the reaper is good for: ridiculous placement challenges. Someone should try to win a game using only Reapers without using cliffjumping--medevac those Reapers around!
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Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
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On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
Scratching Hellions from that list (Just no...), the issue is it's almost impossible to match production. The biggest barrier to reaper usage past early game is how long they take to build. You won't be able match the resource cost of any of those unless you get /mass/ tech lab barracks, like literally 10+ midgame, which is such a heavy investment that it's laughably easy to counter by changing strategies.
It isn't completely unusable, it may be a fun strategy that can win because of the "wtf factor" even in diamond, but as a actual legit strategy? Not so much.
Resource wise, versus light, there the single most effective DPS per cost in the game. But build time wise, there among the worse in the entire game. So even a "mixed" composition of mixing reapers into marauders and marines is unviable. Plus, reapers have the shortest range so they'll die first.
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On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
You are incorrect here. Sorry.
For example, first on your list is marines.
3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily.
Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran.
Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines.
Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper.
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TIme wise minerals are worth about 1.6x as much as gas. not 2x. and on DO gas is worth even less.(they have high yield gas at the mid expos)
but besides that reapers anihilate marines outside of straight up fights.
And LOL at people saying hellions > reapers. IN a straight up fight a reaper will beat a hellion that has pre-infernal ignitor. without the hellion upgrade it's not close. And you don't attack head on anyway with reapers, you circle round back and take out the targets you need to.
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why do people think posting about some change on TL is going to make it happen? it's useless speculation
if you want to find a mid-late use for reapers, find it the way they are, don't sit around daydreaming about how you wish they were
the main problem with them is that there's nothing they do that hellions don't once you have a sinigle dropship because their cliff-walking now provides no extra freedom of movement or spotting
it's either three reapers or three hellions to one-shot a probe, the hellions build faster, move faster, have more life, have more range, don't cost gas, splash, and can be upgraded to two-shot
so their only real advantage after starport tech is higher DPS against buildings than marauders, which with some rough theorycrafting math means a dropship full of marauders takes 16 seconds to kill a hatchery, 6 reapers takes 12 seconds. counting the dropship cost, the reapers still cost 50 gas more and a minute extra build time, and the reapers have less than half the health and shorter range. i personally don't think that 4 seconds is worth the hassle, but that's what you have to work with.
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On June 05 2010 04:35 baytripper wrote:
why do people think posting about some change on TL is going to make it happen? it's useless speculation
if you want to find a mid-late use for reapers, find it the way they are, don't sit around daydreaming about how you wish they were
the main problem with them is that there's nothing they do that hellions don't once you have a sinigle dropship because their cliff-walking now provides no extra freedom of movement or spotting
it's either three reapers or three hellions to one-shot a probe, the hellions build faster, move faster, have more life, have more range, don't cost gas, splash, and can be upgraded to two-shot
so their only real advantage after starport tech is higher DPS against buildings than marauders, which with some rough theorycrafting math means a dropship full of marauders takes 16 seconds to kill a hatchery, 6 reapers takes 12 seconds. counting the dropship cost, the reapers still cost 50 gas more and a minute extra build time, and the reapers have less than half the health and shorter range. i personally don't think that 4 seconds is worth the hassle, but that's what you have to work with.
if a person has air superiority then you really can't use dropships. try making 2 reapers instead of a dropship for the reapers in your DPS question  it'll make it worth it. reapers w/ speed run faster than a medivac.
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if they have air superiority they probably have mutas or phoenixes in which case your reapers won't do anything at all
and you can't say two more reapers instead of a dropship because you're using a barracks with tech lab in both examples and like i pointed out, 6 marauders + 1 medivac is less gas and less production time than 6 reapers
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Hello, TL.
Take firebats in brood war, give them jet packs and an awesome vs building attack. Heck yes, it'd get use.
It feels like that's exactly what Blizzard thought with reapers. They're an artifact from the beginning of SC2 development. Now the rest of the game has evolved around them, they're in a sore place. This is no longer Brood War with jet packs. Replace vikings and banshees with wraiths and valkyries, and we'd prolly say "who cares if they're flimsy? they're AWESOME!" But we have solutions that sustain way less losses and benefit us outside of one little niche (as has been said, marauders are a much safer way to tie up your barracks production).
I don't know that I have a solution, but I do have 2 ideas that seem good... in theory (which is moot, I know).
1) Fast build time reapers has been tried. It made early game hell. So perhaps they should take away their starting jumpjets and increase their move speed. Change speed upgrade to be what gives them the ability to cliffjump altogether. Now, you can justify a cut to the build time of reapers to that of a marine. Now they're quick, massable (if a bit expensive), but way less capable in those critical first few minutes of the game.
2) I find it funny how much better a handful of reapers are against a building like a photon cannon than a stalker or a queen. Maybe it's time to give Reapers Lockdown as an upgrade -- probably requiring an Armory as people have suggested. Of course, not having energy, they'd use a cooldown mechanic version. Probably 1 minute recast/10 second duration.
But this 2nd idea is very heavy-handed. At this point, it would have to be an ability added in the next expansion. Not a bad idea. As with Brood War, we really need some time live to assess what each race needs.
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Use your brain... late game u can have hellions or banshees both are useful outside of harassment and reapers are so fragile i don't see them being used outside of harass. Maybe the upgrade should be increased range or something to make them actually useful after 20 food but w.e
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EPT
