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Greetings,
Now I know what your thinking, there are no mid-late Reaper plays. I actually think this is a real shame. See, I have to admit, I am a big Reaper fan. I was kind of bored of the old starcraft units having played that game to death and back again years ago. Thats why Reapers appeal to me so much, they are radically different to all the units that came before them.
I am just not happy with them being useful for a single cheese early on and then falling by the wayside as the coolest unused unit ever™
Anyway, being me I decided that I really wanted to brainstorm with you guys as to possible additions to the Reaper that'd add some use to it mid and late game. Especially in TvT which can become very dull viking-tank or viking-MMM fests. Obviously, it's a harassment unit. How can we get it to fill this role better?
My first idea was simply to allow the reaper to treat sieged tanks like they were buildings (det packing them to death). Unsieged tanks would be spared. Meaning there is a harassment play of getting into the tank line and detpacking the tanks. Or forcing them to unsiege (which is when you roll in and attack?). Reapers are quite fragile though, so I'm not sure this would work, though it would fit their role and lore beautifully.
Another idea was an upgrade (armoury unlocked?) that extended detpack range to 8. Allowing for highly annoying building harassment from long range. Their pistol range would remain untouched, so any normal unit could abuse them happily as now. This also fits their harassment theme very well.
I love the idea of a fast, annoying, harassment unit that is very fragile. I just think the Reaper doesn't fit this role very well outside of the first 3 minutes of the game. Unlike say zerglings which scale through the game and is very useful or the protosses stalker (with blink) who can quickly get in, do a ton of damage and get out.
It seems to me that the Reaper is the games only "early" unit that just surrenders to becoming useless later. It's also sad that it's only limelight is as an early (and usually all-in) cheese. I'd love to see some changes to resolve this.
What do you guys think?
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Reapers do not see much mid-late game play because their harass is easily out classed by other terran units that fit the role better AND can be useful in an acutal army battle (i.e. hellions/banshees/vikings).
I have seen a game with Orb where his opponent got like 10 reapers and hid them to back stab his base when he moved out (cute), but Orb scouted it and demolished the whole force in 3 secs.
The only thing that would make reapers useful mid-late game is to give it those mines (or w.e. dustin "my catch phrase makes me look cool but I'm not" brower called them) back.
About your suggestions:
Tanks Vs Reapers: ...13 range tanks? Definitely would not work at all
Increased range: I guess this would be cool for 2v2 but I don't think this would make a difference because banshees/dropped stimmed maurders kill builds alot better than reapers with better mobility.
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An upgrade that gives them a spider mine style ability or an upgrade that greatly increases their health but is high tech would be the only thing that could work I think
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I was watching lz's stream last night and he had to transition from mech to MMM playing against a toss. When he built the rax he needed, he pumped 2 or so cycles of reapers and then used them to tear down a nexus really quickly. It was a cool way of distracting the protoss player during the transition when he had fewer units.
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I think on certain maps, Incineration Zone being the one that comes to mind first, there's definitely a place for midgame reapers, and I think we'll see that as players get better at the game. I believe that, as we go forward, we'll see every single trick in the book dragged up for use in harrassment. They're potentially not as damaging as hellions in mineral line, and they're much easier to repel than banshees or vikings, but with cliff jumping and their low cost, I think they've got a niche.
Case in point: Incineration zone just has the most ludicrous number of cliffs to leap up and down. It also has ridiculous chokes that are difficult to slip a bunch of hellions through. Cheap reapers with cheap nitro packs could happily zip around expansions, being a royal pain in the ass. Here, I can see them being more cost effective than most of the other terran harassment options. But then again, Incineration zone sucks, and is a very extreme example of a reaper playground.
EDIT: Oh, and, yeah, I wanted to mention that I really don't see them having much use in a straight up fight. Potentially, MAYBE, I can see them flanking and sniping HTs and ghosts, if the terrain is favourable, but thats probably rather difficult to do, in practice.
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Reapers can be used alot like VoidRays to snipe CCs from the back door. Other than that, yes any role they could fill is better filled by another T unit.
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On June 05 2010 02:24 BlueSorc wrote:
I think on certain maps, there's definitely a place for midgame reapers,
This is the meat of that post: and its true. Kulas ravine is a perfect example of a map where players can take advantage of midgame reapers. Same with Desert Oasis (albeit mostly for early game on DO).
Midgame reaper tactics can be highly effective, and very disruptive. Recently (on KR) i have been using small packs (2-4) reapers to harass expansions, which has been very effective. Also, there is nothing better for getting somone to move their army than a group of reapers in their base. This allows you to go in the front door and set up your siege tanks / whatever you have without confrontation.
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On kulas and Lost Temple when i was still playing terran i'd get about 20 reapers vs zerg and vs terran. VS zerg the reapers would sit on cliffs and wait for me to engage the roach/hydra force. marauders picking away at the roaches and then circle behind the hydras and wipe them extremely fast. reapers 4 shot hydras with fast attack speed.then the same 20 reapers can actually threaten the large number of expos zerg tries to get.
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I'd use reaper has a mid-game harrassment, just like the darktemplar.
get 5-6 reapers and attack when your opponent is in a bad position. Aim for new expansions, kill workers and run away. When you see your opponent attack you, you hit his mineral line. 6-7 reapers is enough to kill little defenses opponents have (or if its his expansion you are attacking, often he didnt havetime to def up his mineral line).
reapers in midgame can be very annoying for others when used properly, and I do believe they play the same role as darktemplars.
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On KR a reaper can hit the top right postion's gas from the cliff.
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Anything that makes the Reaper better is OK in my book. I'd love to get Spider Mines back, but I think Blizzard made a point of taking them out and giving Banelings to Zerg.
(and even if Blizzard never buffs Reapers I'll still find excuses to use them  )
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I think currently think Reapers cannot harass effectively at all once even a single queen, spine crawler, cannon, etc is up. I have yet to see a single high level replay where they are used outside of the early cheese rush.
Yet the replies here seem to say they have a mid game purpose currently. Can someone drop some replays of this in action for my viewing pleasure?  .
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Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely.
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On June 05 2010 02:05 xixecal wrote:
The only thing that would make reapers useful mid-late game is to give it those mines (or w.e. dustin "my catch phrase makes me look cool but I'm not" brower called them) back.
Ooooh, snap. Burned him like a burnin thing, aww yeah. Nice work on that burn, bro.
Anyway, I think it was IdrA who said that once players are good enough at SC2 to macro really really well, then they'll play the whole map and we'll see more harassment. I think three or four reapers could be a cool option for this kind of thing, simply because ("on some maps") repears have better access to stuff than hellions, cost less than banshees, and can annihilate buildings.
So, especially as anti-building "harass" or strike teams, I think reapers have a lot of potential.
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i think people forget that upgraded reapers run almost as fast as speedlings - and they can jump up cliffs too.
when people are comfortable enough to multitask i'm sure reapers will be used late game.
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On June 05 2010 02:44 Spidermonkey wrote:
On KR a reaper can hit the top right postion's gas from the cliff.
they fixed this in patch 13.
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I agree that reapers are pretty useful on maps with abuseable cliffs like kulas and LT. However, vikings/drops fit that role much better. It's not that they are useless, but that there are better alternatives.
Reapers are good because they can cliff jump. Vikings can fly. So can drop ships. So can Banshees. I guess they can be fun if you've got the game in the bag.
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Are you guys forgetting that it takes something like 4 reapers to beat even a stalker (and I assume a roach)?
If hellions ran past the ramp into a main (say his 3rd or 4th expansion), they could easily last long enough to incinerate every probe and trade themselves. Banshees are probably going to be part of any late game terran comp (since T tends to get multiple starports after more gasses), and are going to be supported by vikings and maybe ravens.
So where exactly does the reaper fit? Do you use them to block expansions? Until they send a single stalker? They're not going to be able to clear cannons before they get killed.
Are you going to use them mid game? In which builds can you afford to spend unit cycles on reaper and delay your push out?
As long as the reaper cannot combat basic units in some way (like the vulture could with mines), it will be useless.
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But reapers can basically fly, on some maps. And they're so much cheaper than banshees and do so much more damage to buildings than vikings.
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Another thing you can do is siege your tanks near a cliff and then use a reaper to give vision of buildings or probe lines. This is useful because you can get a reaper and tank faster than viking/raven/tank.
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Hellions cannot kill static defenses and cannot run behind mineral line with a blocked ramp.
a quick reaper rush (2-3) does not usually work midgame, but have you ever used 8-10 reapers together in midgame?
10 reapers is what, 500mineral and 500gas. Can literrally destroy not well defended expansions (1-2 cannons, 1-2 crawlers). It can definitely force opponent to send some troops to defend.
on the other hand, Hellions cannot kill static defenses. Works great if the mineral line is undefended. to equal 10reapers is only like 4 vikings, which is far from enough to kill 1 cannon/crawler. 10 reapers would equal 3 banshees
in midgame, it is easier harass with 10 reapers (as you can kill static d AND kill workers and run behind cliffs). I would use reapers > 4 vikings or 5 hellions if my main objective is to get the most workers as posible
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One of the big problems with the whole 'make a bunch in mid game to harass' is that they take a long time to construct and use up your barracks for way too long. Terran production is already limited somewhat
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Make a new Reaper-upgrade at the tech lab: remove a portion of the gas cost, and better the build time. Remove like 25 from the gas cost. Make it take a while to upgrade.
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It would be cool if they were given the ability to actually fly by some sort of t3 research.
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they're pretty cool and i'm curious to see if anyone finds a way to use them later in the game. the thing is, they level bases ridiculously fast, and are tough to catch if micro'd properly. maybe a sort of aggressive mech/bio build with mainly tanks and marines with reapers instead of marauders. reapers would make it hard for the opponent to leave his base and get aggressive because even if he destroys the main army, his base is getting leveled post haste. also in an emergency, reapers do add a lot of dps to bio if the opponent has enough light units. they do die fast but mixed in with marines and/or marauders, they die at roughly the same rate just because they're not being focus fired so they get lots of shots off.
i'm just brainstorming here - i don't know the first thing about playing terran. i'm sure there's a way to make it work though.
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I was thinking they could make reapers also benefit from combat shield (or maybe even stim?).
Maybe even give them 15-20hp instead of just 10. They would have to raise the cost of combat shields back to 150/150 though.
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I love reapers just like you OP, but they're so very costly that midgame, you NEED to make them do terrible terrible damage or else you're the one behind. 50/50 for a tiny unit is very costly, and a 40 second build time occupies your barracks for incredibly long periods of time as well. You can try to integrate them into your army, but if you're looking for damage-to-light units, I'd recommend just making a lot of hellions.
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I think part of the problem is if you look at doing some sort of reaper back door to get tech or workers, you have to ask yourself:
"would I rather have a bunch of reapers that will destroy some buildings and some workers OR would I rather invest in a medivac and a bunch of marauders which will destroy some buildings and some workers AND be useful to me later on down the road?"
yes, the marauders and medivac option is substantially more expensive, however those units will have continued usage throughout the game where its hard to imagine a scenario where the reapers will help you win any sort of real battle.
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OH and something that i think is really important about making reaper production work throughout a game - you have to keep them alive. when the reaper harass early on gets shut down by stalkers or whatever, i'd run them the hell out instead of sacrificing them for one more drone or whatever. i don't think it's a unit you can trade off for other units. when you invest in them you're investing in their speed and ability to bypass terrain.
you can add onto their numbers later, and if you keep most of them alive, as the game goes on you'll get those bigger numbers without sacrificing several production cycles in a row.
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That's the thing, the reaper simply isn't worth the minerals/gas later on. I mean, sure, it's fast, but no matter how gosu your micro is, the probability that they will go down without doing much damage mid/late-game is extremely high. It really needs some sort of upgrade that makes it either a bit more hardy, or cheaper.
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One thing the reaper is good for: ridiculous placement challenges. Someone should try to win a game using only Reapers without using cliffjumping--medevac those Reapers around!
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Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
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On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
Scratching Hellions from that list (Just no...), the issue is it's almost impossible to match production. The biggest barrier to reaper usage past early game is how long they take to build. You won't be able match the resource cost of any of those unless you get /mass/ tech lab barracks, like literally 10+ midgame, which is such a heavy investment that it's laughably easy to counter by changing strategies.
It isn't completely unusable, it may be a fun strategy that can win because of the "wtf factor" even in diamond, but as a actual legit strategy? Not so much.
Resource wise, versus light, there the single most effective DPS per cost in the game. But build time wise, there among the worse in the entire game. So even a "mixed" composition of mixing reapers into marauders and marines is unviable. Plus, reapers have the shortest range so they'll die first.
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On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks.
You are incorrect here. Sorry.
For example, first on your list is marines.
3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily.
Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran.
Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines.
Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper.
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TIme wise minerals are worth about 1.6x as much as gas. not 2x. and on DO gas is worth even less.(they have high yield gas at the mid expos)
but besides that reapers anihilate marines outside of straight up fights.
And LOL at people saying hellions > reapers. IN a straight up fight a reaper will beat a hellion that has pre-infernal ignitor. without the hellion upgrade it's not close. And you don't attack head on anyway with reapers, you circle round back and take out the targets you need to.
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why do people think posting about some change on TL is going to make it happen? it's useless speculation
if you want to find a mid-late use for reapers, find it the way they are, don't sit around daydreaming about how you wish they were
the main problem with them is that there's nothing they do that hellions don't once you have a sinigle dropship because their cliff-walking now provides no extra freedom of movement or spotting
it's either three reapers or three hellions to one-shot a probe, the hellions build faster, move faster, have more life, have more range, don't cost gas, splash, and can be upgraded to two-shot
so their only real advantage after starport tech is higher DPS against buildings than marauders, which with some rough theorycrafting math means a dropship full of marauders takes 16 seconds to kill a hatchery, 6 reapers takes 12 seconds. counting the dropship cost, the reapers still cost 50 gas more and a minute extra build time, and the reapers have less than half the health and shorter range. i personally don't think that 4 seconds is worth the hassle, but that's what you have to work with.
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On June 05 2010 04:35 baytripper wrote:
why do people think posting about some change on TL is going to make it happen? it's useless speculation
if you want to find a mid-late use for reapers, find it the way they are, don't sit around daydreaming about how you wish they were
the main problem with them is that there's nothing they do that hellions don't once you have a sinigle dropship because their cliff-walking now provides no extra freedom of movement or spotting
it's either three reapers or three hellions to one-shot a probe, the hellions build faster, move faster, have more life, have more range, don't cost gas, splash, and can be upgraded to two-shot
so their only real advantage after starport tech is higher DPS against buildings than marauders, which with some rough theorycrafting math means a dropship full of marauders takes 16 seconds to kill a hatchery, 6 reapers takes 12 seconds. counting the dropship cost, the reapers still cost 50 gas more and a minute extra build time, and the reapers have less than half the health and shorter range. i personally don't think that 4 seconds is worth the hassle, but that's what you have to work with.
if a person has air superiority then you really can't use dropships. try making 2 reapers instead of a dropship for the reapers in your DPS question it'll make it worth it. reapers w/ speed run faster than a medivac.
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if they have air superiority they probably have mutas or phoenixes in which case your reapers won't do anything at all
and you can't say two more reapers instead of a dropship because you're using a barracks with tech lab in both examples and like i pointed out, 6 marauders + 1 medivac is less gas and less production time than 6 reapers
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Hello, TL.
Take firebats in brood war, give them jet packs and an awesome vs building attack. Heck yes, it'd get use.
It feels like that's exactly what Blizzard thought with reapers. They're an artifact from the beginning of SC2 development. Now the rest of the game has evolved around them, they're in a sore place. This is no longer Brood War with jet packs. Replace vikings and banshees with wraiths and valkyries, and we'd prolly say "who cares if they're flimsy? they're AWESOME!" But we have solutions that sustain way less losses and benefit us outside of one little niche (as has been said, marauders are a much safer way to tie up your barracks production).
I don't know that I have a solution, but I do have 2 ideas that seem good... in theory (which is moot, I know).
1) Fast build time reapers has been tried. It made early game hell. So perhaps they should take away their starting jumpjets and increase their move speed. Change speed upgrade to be what gives them the ability to cliffjump altogether. Now, you can justify a cut to the build time of reapers to that of a marine. Now they're quick, massable (if a bit expensive), but way less capable in those critical first few minutes of the game.
2) I find it funny how much better a handful of reapers are against a building like a photon cannon than a stalker or a queen. Maybe it's time to give Reapers Lockdown as an upgrade -- probably requiring an Armory as people have suggested. Of course, not having energy, they'd use a cooldown mechanic version. Probably 1 minute recast/10 second duration.
But this 2nd idea is very heavy-handed. At this point, it would have to be an ability added in the next expansion. Not a bad idea. As with Brood War, we really need some time live to assess what each race needs.
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Use your brain... late game u can have hellions or banshees both are useful outside of harassment and reapers are so fragile i don't see them being used outside of harass. Maybe the upgrade should be increased range or something to make them actually useful after 20 food but w.e
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On June 05 2010 04:24 Edmon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks. You are incorrect here. Sorry. For example, first on your list is marines. 3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily. Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran. Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines. Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper.
Additionally, speedlings dominate Reapers in terms of cost. Hydras also rape Reapers. Maybe if there are 1-2 Hydras, yes you will do well. But with 5 or more Hydras, attacking is just throwing away all the gas/time you spent on Reapers.
I just don't think a Terran is going to be able to have a viable Reaper play after the very early game (at least against Zerg). Speedlings can cover ground even better than Reapers can and Queens will act as decent control zones against them.
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On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely.
BUMP
late game teran need ALL the gass they can get for other units.. its just not cost effective to throw it away. i play zerg and i love throwing mineals away mid and late game flanking an expo with zerglings while i hit thier main with my main army.. but ONLY because they dont cost gas!
if i per say did a flank with reapers and it failed its a HUGE loss
in game 4 tlo vs nazgul he flanked with marines and got the natual down.. it would have been even more epic if he did it with reapers imo
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stop comparing reapers to soldier units...
reapers are clearly a harrass unit. although i've used them in a bunker on occasion to deal with early all-in rushes because they destroy every t1 unit instantly.
probably not the most efficient unit, but on some maps you can really devastate protoss with upgraded reapers, hopping up cliff and sniping pylons. with ~8 reapers a pylon goes down in about 4 seconds. with the speed upgrade, cliff hopping and building damage i find them far more versatile than the banshee.
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Mid game i used reapers to scout high ground for sieged tanks and ghost nuke, i even used a reaper squad to attrack enemies on a nuke spot, very effective, you destroy the workers and army of your opponent. 1 Dropship, 1 ghost, 7 reapers
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Give the reapers another upgrade in the tech lab for faster rate of fire and/or bonus damage to light. Making them effective against Hydra and zerglings.
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On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely.
50 gas is cost effective to you? way better spent on other units in almost every case except maybe reaper bunker vs FE Zerg. that's the real reason their not practical on high level play. Hellions are more cost effective anti light. 0 gas.
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People are comparing them to firebats, and I don't think that's quite fair. Firebats were cheaper, slower, and had AoE and stimpacks. Reapers are more akin to vultures in my opinion, but without the spider mines. Look at them this way and you'll start to realize why no one uses them outside the early game.
EDIT: Other facts I would like the bring to people attention: speedlings will always be faster than reapers, regardless of nitro packs. Reapers also only have 4.5 range, which makes them nearly impossible to micro against anything with more range than a roach.
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I think that in addition to their base-raiding abilities, reapers need to ability to effectively harass late-game armies in order to be a viable mid-late game unit.
Reapers should be given a tier 2 researchable timer mines ability. They would be similar to spider mines, but instead of being proximity-activated, they would explode after, say, 5 seconds regardless of whether an enemy was in the vicinity or not. This would allow all sorts of versatility for the reaper, such as laying the mines in a choke point before an enemy army arrives, or deploying them during an engagement to force an enemy retreat before the 5 seconds was up.
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lol if you have one rax pumping reapers most of the game, run around nuking cc's n stuff when you get 8~ reapers. Doesn't work on good players but you'd be surprised how often you can catch people off guard and instantly nuke their nexus/cc/hatch.
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What about reapers on bunkers?
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reapers do huge amage to light but are weak ..... only putting them in a bunker seems logical to me ..... although they don't shoot air, but they twarp any plans of harrassing with light units from the enemy.
So protecting them with bunkers is the only logical explanation
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i agree with the point that reapers need some kind of upgrade to make them more viable in the late game. an idea is we make an upgrade on the tech lab witch needs an armory to work that ethir :reduces build time, adds range, increases health or adds a thowable d8 charge, like a spider mine yet visible and blows up afer say 10 second.
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On June 05 2010 07:13 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 04:24 Edmon wrote:On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks. You are incorrect here. Sorry. For example, first on your list is marines. 3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily. Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran. Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines. Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper. Additionally, speedlings dominate Reapers in terms of cost. Hydras also rape Reapers. Maybe if there are 1-2 Hydras, yes you will do well. But with 5 or more Hydras, attacking is just throwing away all the gas/time you spent on Reapers. I just don't think a Terran is going to be able to have a viable Reaper play after the very early game (at least against Zerg). Speedlings can cover ground even better than Reapers can and Queens will act as decent control zones against them.
Actually hydras are the only combat unit reapers are good against(they can beat zealots if they are unsupported, but that never happens outside of a rush, so they aren't effective in combat vs them). What is left of his list are workers and units/buildings without an attack and reapers better fucking be cost effective against defenseless buildings or units...
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Make them cost 50/25 :D
Although that would probably be OP at the beginning >_>
Frankly I find them very useful against zeals, zerglings and even marines. Just a few marauders with Reapers on follow will destroy the above units. Of course if they mass roach/stalk/maraud then you're dead...
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What they should probably do is make the det packs an upgrade (possibly requiring a factory/engineering bay)... and make them better.
Say keep the same cooldown but move them to 40 damage (100-100 upgrade)
so early game reapers can still slaughter the workers
mid-late they can take out the entire expansion.
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On June 06 2010 05:16 LiAlH4 wrote:
I think that in addition to their base-raiding abilities, reapers need to ability to effectively harass late-game armies in order to be a viable mid-late game unit.
Reapers should be given a tier 2 researchable timer mines ability. They would be similar to spider mines, but instead of being proximity-activated, they would explode after, say, 5 seconds regardless of whether an enemy was in the vicinity or not. This would allow all sorts of versatility for the reaper, such as laying the mines in a choke point before an enemy army arrives, or deploying them during an engagement to force an enemy retreat before the 5 seconds was up.
I like this idea the best. Give each reaper one mine, that does like, 25+50~ damage to structures? It would two shot workers, and be able to take down certain structures. And you wouldn't be able to just run in and det pack a Nexus, unless you had 20 reapers saved up.
EDIT: Changed damage, realized it would be ridiculously over powered.
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The thing that really kills reapers is their build time only. I think if they made reapers the same speed as a zealot without the speed upgrade but made them build as fast as Marauders, it would balance them better for early game and make them much more viable later in the game.
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On June 05 2010 03:22 Sputty wrote:
One of the big problems with the whole 'make a bunch in mid game to harass' is that they take a long time to construct and use up your barracks for way too long. Terran production is already limited somewhat
^ This is why reapers aren't ever viable as a mid to large sized force. You just can't afford to make so many barracks and have them used up producing reapers. You'll end up with no real army which makes any reaper play past an early harass an all-in.
I think a late upgrade (perhaps researched at tech lab after armory) to give them a spider-mine kind of ability would be amazing and make terran even more fun to play. I think spider-mines are a defining characteristic of the terran race.
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On June 06 2010 07:07 tathecat563 wrote:
Frankly I find them very useful against zeals, zerglings and even marines. Just a few marauders with Reapers on follow will destroy the above units. Of course if they mass roach/stalk/maraud then you're dead...
technically no barracks unit beats zealots standing and fighting, but if you have marauders tanking for you, one reaper has a DPS of 16 and two stimmed marines have a DPS of 21. i know that's not a 100% fair comparison since reapers are one food, but marines can be reactored, and most people would agree 100/0 is cheaper than 50/50, especially considering that more early gas = faster ghosts
against zerglings i don't think there's any way you can argue reapers are better than hellions, the splash is just ridiculous once you get preigniter, and the extra speed is crucial. hellions are slightly slower than speedlings, but they're fast enough to not get surrounded, which reapers aren't
marines vs reapers is about dead even, whoever get the first shot off wins, and i'd much, much rather have two marines in a TvT so i can get some extra damage in against the vikings and banshees and have free gas for vikings of my own. i mean... you don't seriously do that do you? reapers as a combat unit in TvT? i call shenanigans on that
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On June 05 2010 08:59 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely. 50 gas is cost effective to you? way better spent on other units in almost every case except maybe reaper bunker vs FE Zerg. that's the real reason their not practical on high level play. Hellions are more cost effective anti light. 0 gas.
Can you read? I said cost effective way to destroy buildings. The only other unit that might compare is the Immortal, and that's a different type of unit.
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Why did they remove the Reaper's old D-8 charges ability?
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On June 06 2010 08:05 Deviation wrote:
Why did they remove the Reaper's old D-8 charges ability?
uh... they didn't
all documented changes to the reaper:
Patch 1 (version 0.3.0.14093)
* The damage done from D-8 Charges has decreased from 40 to 30.
* The delay between attacks for D-8 Charges has decreased from 2.5 to 1.8.
Patch 2 (version 0.4.0.14133)
* The build time was increased from 30 to 40.
* Nitro Boost: The build time was increased from 90 to 100.
Patch 15 (version 0.17.0.15623)
* Nitro Packs research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50.
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On June 06 2010 08:07 baytripper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 08:05 Deviation wrote:
Why did they remove the Reaper's old D-8 charges ability? uh... they didn't all documented changes to the reaper: Patch 1 (version 0.3.0.14093) * The damage done from D-8 Charges has decreased from 40 to 30. * The delay between attacks for D-8 Charges has decreased from 2.5 to 1.8. Patch 2 (version 0.4.0.14133) * The build time was increased from 30 to 40. * Nitro Boost: The build time was increased from 90 to 100. Patch 15 (version 0.17.0.15623) * Nitro Packs research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50.
He said the OLD d-8 charge ability which wasn't a secondary attack but rather an ability that laid down explosives where you clicked that exploded a couple seconds later for terrible terrible damage.
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On June 06 2010 08:07 baytripper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2010 08:05 Deviation wrote:
Why did they remove the Reaper's old D-8 charges ability? uh... they didn't all documented changes to the reaper: Patch 1 (version 0.3.0.14093) * The damage done from D-8 Charges has decreased from 40 to 30. * The delay between attacks for D-8 Charges has decreased from 2.5 to 1.8. Patch 2 (version 0.4.0.14133) * The build time was increased from 30 to 40. * Nitro Boost: The build time was increased from 90 to 100. Patch 15 (version 0.17.0.15623) * Nitro Packs research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50.
He's not talking about their boring as dirt secondary attack... He's talking about their old ability. They basically threw down a C4 packet on the ground and after a shot time it exploded and did AoE damage. It was used to make an enemy retreat during battle or basically rape buildings during a base raid. It was removed before the start of the beta.
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average is people reaper within the 3 minutes of the game while the other team may still be unable to defend well enough but i tried this i had 5 barracks and i said why not i got 5 reapers ( this was 16 minutes into the game) and i already had the speed up from before and came in and killed 22 scvs and 18 probes for both teams because they never expected reapers at this time and i didnt need to keep making more i had done the job. plus if you get blocked just run away and leave them nearbye and use them while they are distracted like i used it while i helped defend my teamates expo
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On June 06 2010 08:15 UnburrowedLurker wrote:
He's not talking about their boring as dirt secondary attack... He's talking about their old ability. They basically threw down a C4 packet on the ground and after a shot time it exploded and did AoE damage. It was used to make an enemy retreat during battle or basically rape buildings during a base raid. It was removed before the start of the beta.
well i don't see why you'd whine about an ability you never even got to use
pre-beta reapers had their own production building that followed a weird wc3 production scheme, it was all just too complicated and overpowered and the unit was completely redesigned for the beta
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I have been thinking of the reaper for some time now. And the best solution I have been able to come up with is to give it another set of upgrades. IMO it should have 3 range upgrades, that each add +1 to range. The upgrades requires an engineering bay, and each upgrade take 70 seconds and cost 100/50. You can only research one upgrade at a time.
This means that a terran player can have something like 5-6 reapers at midgame with a range of 8 and a pretty good speed with the addition of the nitro packs.
The total cost of this would be: 300/150+50/50+250/250 = 600/450. So definately not cheap. But the reapers would be extremly effective against any ground unit that is not: A) A siege tank, B) A collosus, C) Stalkers with blink, D) Hydras.
However if the oppenent does not realize that the terran players go for reaper harass he could be will be at a signaficant disadvantage if he gets to many roaches/stalkers (while not having the building that is required for blink which name I forgot, doh), zealots, sentries, marines, maudaredrs and so on. Really these upgrades would make the reaper very usefull against most groud units in mid as well as late game. Especially if the oppenent does not scout correctly.
This also will make the reaper usefull against static defenses unlikele the hellion, which now is too similar with the reaper.
These upgrades will also make the vulnerable reaper a little more usefull in combats, as it can stay behind the MM army, and thereby being more protected.
However it would probably not be overpowered as it would take 210 seconds + enginerring bay time + the fact that reapers take long time to produce.
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I've been trying to use reapers... And while I'm definitely not the best player out there, I don't really see how you could ever get your moneys worth out of them. The reapers suffer from three big design flaws.
A: Too frail. 50HP is nothing when they have any type of army in their base besides maybe lings/rines. This prevents them from begin used in any type of army, and really even effective base raiders.
B: Too expensive. 50 gas is way to much for what is essentially a suicide unit. It should be 25 gas 75 minerals, so they still are expensive to make early game, but possible to make late game.
C: Too slow. Even with the nitro packs, they aren't even as fast as speedlings.This doesn't seem like a big problem, but they really need to be as fast as possible. Even with their current speed, they can't really get out of where they need to be without loosing +50% of their numbers.
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On June 07 2010 02:30 UnburrowedLurker wrote:
I've been trying to use reapers... And while I'm definitely not the best player out there, I don't really see how you could ever get your moneys worth out of them. The reapers suffer from three big design flaws.
A: Too frail. 50HP is nothing when they have any type of army in their base besides maybe lings/rines. This prevents them from begin used in any type of army, and really even effective base raiders.
B: Too expensive. 50 gas is way to much for what is essentially a suicide unit. It should be 25 gas 75 minerals, so they still are expensive to make early game, but possible to make late game.
C: Too slow. Even with the nitro packs, they aren't even as fast as speedlings.This doesn't seem like a big problem, but they really need to be as fast as possible. Even with their current speed, they can't really get out of where they need to be without loosing +50% of their numbers.
So basically you want ranged zerglings that jump up and down cliffs and have more hp + that demolish buildings? Hmmmmm... Right.... Make T even more powerful.
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There already is a use: scouting. Reapers are great as they are made in building you already have and are fast, and don't cost 300 minerals for a scan. (MULE cost.) Additionally, you can use them to snipe templar and infestors.
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I think the the old D-8 charge ability would have given them full-game usefulness. If the ability was too powerful Blizzard could have made it a mid-game upgrade instead of completely removing it. 
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Upgrade to remove the gas cost or reduce the build time.
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Reaper should have been replaced very early on in the beta with a unit that has less of a cheese factor and more mid game utility. There's no tweaking this unit anymore, it'll never fit. C'est la vie.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't agree, I think it's a great unit that just needs to be completely redesigned ;/
Currently they are useless because:
- They cost sooooooo much fucking gas.
- They can't outrun speedlings even with speed upgrade. Seriously, that makes them just completely worthless on any map that isn't... I dunno, Kulas or LT?
You can't make them cheaper gas wise or they'll be too easy to cheese with, which is why they need a huge redesign. Maybe require a building to unlock, let them build from reactor... maybe if they need a building to unlock they could be 25 gas or something.
Give them some kind of map control ability - maybe not spider mines but some kind of mini-sensor ping thingy.
If they still had their D8 charges you could throw around, I might make them to kill creep tumors.
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One thing to make them scale is give them massive benefits from upgrades. Right now the building attack gets +4. Make it +6 or even +8. They do base damage of 8 + 10 vs. light. Upgrades are +2 per. Make it +4. I think it's important to keep them flimsy, but at the same time, give me a reason to make them after the first 5 minutes of the game.
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On June 07 2010 03:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I don't agree, I think it's a great unit that just needs to be completely redesigned ;/
Currently they are useless because:
- They cost sooooooo much fucking gas.
- They can't outrun speedlings even with speed upgrade. Seriously, that makes them just completely worthless on any map that isn't... I dunno, Kulas or LT?
You can't make them cheaper gas wise or they'll be too easy to cheese with, which is why they need a huge redesign. Maybe require a building to unlock, let them build from reactor... maybe if they need a building to unlock they could be 25 gas or something.
Give them some kind of map control ability - maybe not spider mines but some kind of mini-sensor ping thingy.
If they still had their D8 charges you could throw around, I might make them to kill creep tumors.
For building requirements I'd suggest factory or engineering bay. Or, heck, armory. Just anything is better than right now. It all depends on how late you want them to come out, I'm pretty sure engineering bay would delay reaper cheese long enough, though the armory seems like another interesting choice to me...
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will be no reaper play at all for my part atm. For some reason the game crashes everytime i go 8rax reapers Mabye its getting cheese protected.
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On June 07 2010 02:59 MythicalMage wrote:
Additionally, you can use them to snipe templar and infestors.
uh have you ever actually done that?
infestors are armored that would take forever
and anyway for the price of two reapers you could make a banshee which will kill one in half the time and be generally more useful against zerg
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On June 07 2010 02:41 RAZROK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 02:30 UnburrowedLurker wrote:
I've been trying to use reapers... And while I'm definitely not the best player out there, I don't really see how you could ever get your moneys worth out of them. The reapers suffer from three big design flaws.
A: Too frail. 50HP is nothing when they have any type of army in their base besides maybe lings/rines. This prevents them from begin used in any type of army, and really even effective base raiders.
B: Too expensive. 50 gas is way to much for what is essentially a suicide unit. It should be 25 gas 75 minerals, so they still are expensive to make early game, but possible to make late game.
C: Too slow. Even with the nitro packs, they aren't even as fast as speedlings.This doesn't seem like a big problem, but they really need to be as fast as possible. Even with their current speed, they can't really get out of where they need to be without loosing +50% of their numbers. So basically you want ranged zerglings that jump up and down cliffs and have more hp + that demolish buildings? Hmmmmm... Right.... Make T even more powerful.
Way to take what I said simplify it to the point of ridiculousness.
If it wasn't clear to anyone else, I think they need one of these. Not all three.
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So um, a day or 2 later... (sorry to irradiate the dead ultralisk)
Remove jet pack, increase move speed upgrade, replace with upgrade to give their jet packs back (have it take long enough that it can't be up 'til about the 4 minute mark), and then lower build time to marine speed?
Idea being to make them a bit more mass-able in the mid-game but severely limit their ability to early harass since they wouldn't start with the ability to ignore terrain. Would that fix anything at all?
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How about some researchable grenade ability or some-such? A limited-use ability where the reaper throws a grenade with small splash damage and bonus vs. light. Seems like it might fit in with the reapers maneuverability and already in-game damage bonuses.
I'm really only an above average T player at best, but from what I've seen some sort of grenade ability that does +light or even +armor would fit in well with the reaper and make it more useful later on, especially for flanking and such.
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I wonder why they made D8 charges a secondary attack. I would think having D8 charges would make them more viable in mid-late game scenarios.
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I use reaper either in early game or late game.
reaper is kind of gas heavy. so in mid game i wouldnt waste gas on such unit.
maybe 1-2 for scouting.
But in late game is great for deny expansion or map control.
have 3 reaper jump to their base during the battle, and when they have their attention back to base, all their worker are gone.
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Give Reapers a building damage upgrade that makes their det packs do 50 damage and then we'll be seeing base harass instead of worker harass.
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Problems with reapers:
1) They are too gas intensive. This makes it so that they're hard to rush in early game, which is good, but it also means they're unviable mid->late game because you need to spend the gas on other, more effective units.
2) They're too weak late game. Reapers rely on your enemy having little defence, a lot of cliffs and, most importantly, a lot of luck. They die way too easily to be effective past early game harassment. Again, with the high gas cost you're better off producing almost any other unit.
Suggested Solution:
1) Change cost to 75/25. Lower gas enables them to be used in decent numbers in the later parts of the game without cutting too heavily into the Terran's army. The higher mineral cost is to both to help prevent even cheesier rushes and to compensate for the mid/late game buffs.
2) This lower cost would make them too overpowered early game, as they would be a lot easier to spam. Adding the Engineering Bay as an additional requirement for reapers delays them for an extra 10 seconds (it takes 35 seconds to build, compared to a techlab which takes 25 seconds) at least. This allows more time for the opponent to get a stalker, queen or marauder out to help defend against the initial harass.
3) Make the Combat Shield upgrade affect reapers as well. Since most Terrans, who are going bio, would get this upgrade anyway (as it is a huge buff for marines) it helps the reapers be slightly stronger mid game without being stronger at the start.
4) Increase the speed the reaper-specific upgrade (sorry, I forget the name) gives by a very slight amount. An amount that enables them to be more effective on flat ground so they're not completely reliant on cliffs later game. The upgrade itself may need a cost change.
5) Bring back their old D-8 Charge Ability as an upgrade researched on a Barracks TechLab but requires an armoury. This allows reapers to do a lot more damage mid game but prevents early abuse of it. I imagine it would have to cost 100/100 (or possibly even 150/150 or something similiar) as it is already easy to rush to get a Thor so I can imagine it would be fairly easy to rush to this upgrade otherwise.
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On June 09 2010 20:16 Jimmeh wrote:
Problems with reapers:
1) They are too gas intensive. This makes it so that they're hard to rush in early game, which is good, but it also means they're unviable mid->late game because you need to spend the gas on other, more effective units.
2) They're too weak late game. Reapers rely on your enemy having little defence, a lot of cliffs and, most importantly, a lot of luck. They die way too easily to be effective past early game harassment. Again, with the high gas cost you're better off producing almost any other unit.
Suggested Solution:
1) Change cost to 75/25. Lower gas enables them to be used in decent numbers in the later parts of the game without cutting too heavily into the Terran's army. The higher mineral cost is to both to help prevent even cheesier rushes and to compensate for the mid/late game buffs.
2) This lower cost would make them too overpowered early game, as they would be a lot easier to spam. Adding the Engineering Bay as an additional requirement for reapers delays them for an extra 10 seconds (it takes 35 seconds to build, compared to a techlab which takes 25 seconds) at least. This allows more time for the opponent to get a stalker, queen or marauder out to help defend against the initial harass.
3) Make the Combat Shield upgrade affect reapers as well. Since most Terrans, who are going bio, would get this upgrade anyway (as it is a huge buff for marines) it helps the reapers be slightly stronger mid game without being stronger at the start.
4) Increase the speed the reaper-specific upgrade (sorry, I forget the name) gives by a very slight amount. An amount that enables them to be more effective on flat ground so they're not completely reliant on cliffs later game. The upgrade itself may need a cost change.
5) Bring back their old D-8 Charge Ability as an upgrade researched on a Barracks TechLab but requires an armoury. This allows reapers to do a lot more damage mid game but prevents early abuse of it. I imagine it would have to cost 100/100 (or possibly even 150/150 or something similiar) as it is already easy to rush to get a Thor so I can imagine it would be fairly easy to rush to this upgrade otherwise.
The reaper would still be useless. Even with combat shield upgrade it is so easy to counter the reaper in midgame right now. Just have 2-3 stalkers/maurders in the base /hydras /yeah even speedlings and roaches on creep and the reaper cant harass before it dies. And I dont think its overpowered early game. I think its a decent unit early game, but kind of a bad investment, as it has no use of midgame. Even with the 75/25 change I rather have 5/6 of a mauruder.
AS I said priviously the reaper needs a range upgrade to be used in midgame for harass. This will make it decent in combat as well, as it can shoot behind the MM. Right now with range 5 it is always gonna be useless.
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I played a 2v2 where one of the opponents got about 20 reapers with the speed upgrade, he was one-shotting all my static defenses and 2 shotting my tech buildings, they do INSANE damage against buildings!
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Scout allot and use a bunch of reapers to hit expansions hard and fast. upgrade infantry and get a decent ground army while you wait (that way your main can benefit from engineering bay upgrades too).
Another strategy that comes to mind is playing defensively, leaving your reapers hidden somewhere in the middle of the map (where they won't be scouted). and then hitting your opponents base fast and heavy.
These are both just theories. I'll definitely give them a try when the beta comes back up.
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I think the key to making the reaper viable mid/late is to give it an ability that allows it to still harass when people have small defenses in place.
This would be something like and upgrade that gave them an ability to enter a cloaked state for 2 seconds after receiving damage.
this means as long as your reapers aren't getting 1-shot they'll still be able to be effective at slipping by a few stalkers or getting some damage out while not being focus fired down.
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Reapers would make a great Vulture.
Just give them an ability to place 2-3 mines as an upgrade option.
Amen.
Edit: I just noticed this was already mentioned, so i agree with that person
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On June 11 2010 02:58 Chillsen wrote:
Reapers would make a great Vulture.
Just give them an ability to place 2-3 mines as an upgrade option.
Amen.
Edit: I just noticed this was already mentioned, so i agree with that person
I like this idea. But I'd rather see that in an expansion since it would drastically affect the balance.
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On June 11 2010 02:58 Chillsen wrote:
Reapers would make a great Vulture.
Just give them an ability to place 2-3 mines as an upgrade option.
Amen.
Edit: I Just noticed this was already mentioned, so i agree with that person
I like this idea. But I'd rather see that in an expansion since it would drastically affect the balance.
I don't think an exact replica of spider mines would make sense. A mine being carried and burrowed by a reaper doesn't seem to work for me. But maybe something similar like a timed charged that can be destroyed would work. Maybe the charges blow after a few seconds dealing a ton of damage, but they can be destroyed or you can move away from them (they don't chase like spider mines).
EDIT: This was already mentioned, and I totally agree =)
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Unfortunately I don't see any changes being made to reapers. The unit was designed a long time ago if I remember correctly, and in a 1v1 situation it is really just meant to give the Terran race some effective rush/cheese option that P and Z have to account for that they previously didn't have to think about against Terran in BW.
I gave up on reaper rushes as I approached higher levels of play. Any decent Protoss player will be going 1 gate/core/stalker to shut it the fuck down , so if you do try to reaper rush, you risk being in a huge vespene deficit unless you could hit his probes hard. Zerg players are slightly more vulnerable, but once they get the queen out, shouldn't have trouble protecting their mineral line. An early hellion harass is probably preferable and doesn't screw with your barracks production or vespene count at all.
Reapers are still really fun units and I have a blast using them, but I think their current design is probably fine for what they are. I don't think any unit should have zero utility in large battles mid/late game but I fear that is what we are going to see with the reaper for the reasons previously mentioned. It gives the opponent something to think about early game, but is just way too expensive to justify later on.
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Marine combat shield upgrade should apply to reapers.
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Bring back the Merc Compound, move Stim over there, reduce the cost of Stim to compensate for the extra building (75/75/50?), give Stim to Reapers, buff their HP, and give them D8 charges as an ability.
But that probably won't happen ^_^
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here is a simple way to use them that alot of lower levels use:
send scouting scv
build bunker where they are not looking (like in a corner of main)
put reapers in bunker
use a scv or reaper to spot/draw units
or just put them on a cliff above nat and wait for your enemy to realize he is blocked off by long living reapers
the basic though behind this method:
reapers do alot of damage and take very little damage before they die
make them not take damage
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How about an upgrade that makes them cost 100/0 instead of 50/50? Then you could have medivac/reaper armies (low reaper health somewhat compensated by presence of medivacs)
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They just really need to re-design the reaper so it has use past the 3 min mark
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The problem is what to do so that they maintain mid-game potential while still having early game use. Outside of adding additional tech buildings I'm somewhat out. I think a significant buff to their HP and non-Light damage (taking away from their +light damage even) might be nice. Even if we knock them up to 2 pop each, with a range upgrade, and stims, they would see use.
The major issue is they are too slow to build, they need to be more in line with Maruader, even if we need to slow something else down to prevent early rush.
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read the story behind the reaper on the starcraft 2 website (if they still have it online). part of the story is that they didn't last long and were sent in lare numbers. take a hint from the story behind the unit.
edit: here's the page: http://us.starcraft2.com/features/terran/reaper.xml
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Upgrade : Reaptor 200 handguns
- increases range by 1.5 and firing rate vs. units by __% (a lot). After attacking 14 times, the reaper can't attack for __ seconds. (Reloading. Counter doesn't pause while jumping up and down cliffs because they can do it just fine.)
- requires armory.
- contains a GunZ reference.
Jokes aside, reapers have less range than marines do; which are way better fighters than them even in dps (and they cost less, last longer, mass better, can attack air...). The way the reaper is now, the only role I can think for them in a battle is to support marines and marauders from behind by killing zealots while the rines kill key sentries and rauders kill stalkers.
You can also offset their low survivability by putting them into bunkers, but then you're sacrificing their mobility, which is what makes them cost so much.
Now this becomes a whole other story if they can actually reach hydras and snipe stuff. This should of course require a lot of tech. Their clips should run out pretty fast too so that it gives your opponent the option to sacrifice stuff to them to disable them for a while, and wait for that infestor/colossus/siege. This should encourage micro from both sides a LOT.
...and I'd love a GunZ reference on reapers. Even if they gave them an useless sword attack animation in melee range it'd be fine XD
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"Perhaps unsurprisingly reapers are also enthusiastic users of stimpacks. The dangerous cocktail of combat enhancement chemicals suits their high-speed tactics perfectly, and the long-term side effects are scarcely likely to prove an issue." FROM THE SC2 WEBSITE LOL.
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My problem with late game reaper is that they take forever to build, and are somewhat "gas heavy". They are also rather squishy...
8 reaper cost 400m+400g
4 banshees cost 600m+400g (require starport investment but can have optional cloak)
8 marines + medivac cost 500m + 100g
I think I will take the marine package with stim.
Side note: In 3v3/4v4 I enjoy a reaper opening a lot. Not only are they good for harassment early game, reapers in a bunker make short work of tier 1 light units (esp zerglings)
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Those marines in the medevac are also a monolithic unit. They are vulnerable to both AA and anti ground attacks, don't deal with buildings as well and are unable to attack multiple targets simultaneously.
Reapers are deadly in almost any number, do better against limited static defenses and are better low cost scouts than a drop ship.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 12 2010 07:08 nihoh wrote:
"Perhaps unsurprisingly reapers are also enthusiastic users of stimpacks. The dangerous cocktail of combat enhancement chemicals suits their high-speed tactics perfectly, and the long-term side effects are scarcely likely to prove an issue." FROM THE SC2 WEBSITE LOL.
If they had stim, and could actually outrun speedlings, they might be useful ;p I still think they need a secondary ability tho, a la vulture.
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On June 20 2010 23:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 07:08 nihoh wrote:
"Perhaps unsurprisingly reapers are also enthusiastic users of stimpacks. The dangerous cocktail of combat enhancement chemicals suits their high-speed tactics perfectly, and the long-term side effects are scarcely likely to prove an issue." FROM THE SC2 WEBSITE LOL. If they had stim, and could actually outrun speedlings, they might be useful ;p I still think they need a secondary ability tho, a la vulture.
I think what happened was Blizzard must have had Stim on reapers at some point; as the descriptive error on the website shows. One can only wonder at how that played out at Blizzard's Alpha-testing stage?
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A lot of talk about reapers, and the reaper and immortal are my two favourite new units to the game for lore alone.
Nitropack may as well be taken away because it doesn't come in time for the early game and doesn't really help the reapers usability mid/late game.
If you want reapers to be viable mid/late game they need to integrate well with the rest of your infantry ball. The solution is so simple, let the marine upgrades help reapers too. Stim and shields will work nicely, and fit the lore just fine. At minimum they need stim back.
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On June 24 2010 02:24 Shroud wrote:
A lot of talk about reapers, and the reaper and immortal are my two favourite new units to the game for lore alone.
Nitropack may as well be taken away because it doesn't come in time for the early game and doesn't really help the reapers usability mid/late game.
If you want reapers to be viable mid/late game they need to integrate well with the rest of your infantry ball. The solution is so simple, let the marine upgrades help reapers too. Stim and shields will work nicely, and fit the lore just fine. At minimum they need stim back.
Give me reapers with stim- i will show you a broken game.
seriosuly all i do is ruin people with reapers anyway- just make them better so its easier for me.
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what reapers need , is a piercing shell upgrade available late game which will allow reaper to hit the unit behind their original target , making them ling zealot killing machine
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Reapers are great scouts, all game long. They are also very cheap. 4 reapers to cancel an expansion gogo
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I agree that reapers are not a viable mid/late game option, giving them remote detonators would be impressive but probably OP. Mines are still an option as well, but probably something that would require an upgrade from a tech lab costing 100/100.
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D8 charges as remote detonators that only kill units would be cooooool. (Especially if you mainly detonate when you don't have vision.)
But I guess you could mine every expo... So z/p would have to scout every expo with a detector before planting down in the midgame?
Seems ok, actually.
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Give them a passive D8 charged suits.
When they die they have 100% (or 50% for balancing issue) to have their D8 charges with them also explode so their deaths hurt the enemy units (against zerglings, zealots and other units within close range).
This ability would be passive and probably be upgraded at factory tech sorta of how the nuke is also except it probably would have to be from the Barracks-Tech Lab.
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On June 24 2010 03:48 Kakisho wrote:
Give them a passive D8 charged suits.
When they die they have 100% (or 50% for balancing issue) to have their D8 charges with them also explode so their deaths hurt the enemy units (against zerglings, zealots and other units within close range).
This ability would be passive and probably be upgraded at factory tech sorta of how the nuke is also except it probably would have to be from the Barracks-Tech Lab.
that sounds nice, but it's kinda like giving terran banelings that can shoot and jump up cliffs
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On June 24 2010 03:48 Kakisho wrote:
Give them a passive D8 charged suits.
When they die they have 100% (or 50% for balancing issue) to have their D8 charges with them also explode so their deaths hurt the enemy units (against zerglings, zealots and other units within close range).
This ability would be passive and probably be upgraded at factory tech sorta of how the nuke is also except it probably would have to be from the Barracks-Tech Lab.
LOL, what? That would be completely imbalanced in the early game and completely useless after that. :D
Man, TL hates us right now for this discussion.
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I wouldn't mind bringing back the Merc Bar (or whatever it's called) to upgrade reapers. Have it unlock straight after Barracks. Move the Nitro Packs to it, and give them Spider Mines for 100/100.
Mines were such a huge part of BW that I think they would see pretty heavy mid- to late-game use in SC2. In exchange, possibly make reapers 100/50 rather than 50/50?
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Did anyone try 9 reaper rush against Zerg? Unless Zerg went roaches he is dead right there. If timed right this attack comes before fast mutas and totally kill the Zerg base. Spine Crawlers get one shoted, lings and hydras have no chance, queen as well.
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On June 12 2010 06:11 brocoli wrote:
Jokes aside, reapers have less range than marines do; which are way better fighters than them even in dps (and they cost less, last longer, mass better, can attack air...).
Marines are NOT a lot better than Reapers in terms of DPS. Marines do crap dps (6.97dps) but they are jack of all trades units. Compare that to a reaper which does ~7.27 in general and 16.36 vs light units. It's completely fine to say marines have a lot more UTILITY than a reaper but the dps isn't even close.
Interestingly if you're looking at a drop you run into an interesting situation. You load 8 slots of units into a medivac, and depending on how you do it you're looking at 3 marauders and 2 marines. You end up with a composition that in effect is great against buildings thanks to the Marauders grenades but against light units Marauders are worse than a marine in DPS. They do slow units though which is great. This is where I think reapers have a great place.
Vs light
3 marauders, 2 marines = 6.66x3 + 6.97x2 = 33.92
3 marauders, 2 reapers = 6.66x3 + 16.36x2 = 52.7
Vs armored
3 marauders, 2 marines = 13.33x3 + 6.97x2 = 53.93
3 marauders, 2 reapers = 13.33x3 + 16.66x2 = 73.31
You go from taking two full volleys from your force to kill any worker in the game to one shotting any worker in the game. You'll kill a building in 75% of the time too. Reapers are slightly more survivable than a marine too thanks to their +5 HP but that's very minor.
I don't know if it's quite fair to compare reapers to anything but a direct replacement for marines in certain circumstances. If you're doing bio units then it makes some sense, otherwise maybe hellions + reapers since you might have a barracks you're not fully using anyway.
In any case, I don't know if reapers are quite as useless as everyone seems to think.
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On June 24 2010 07:40 jerry507 wrote:
In any case, I don't know if reapers are quite as useless as everyone seems to think.
Have you seen what fungal growth does to reapers? mid-late if Z has infestors reapers are not an option.
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On June 05 2010 07:04 crimsn wrote:
Use your brain... late game u can have hellions or banshees both are useful outside of harassment and reapers are so fragile i don't see them being used outside of harass. Maybe the upgrade should be increased range or something to make them actually useful after 20 food but w.e
This. I mean this guy is from North Korea, he knows what he's talking about.
In all honesty I think reapers are only useful for a small window in 1v1. However there are many uses for reapers in 2v2 or anything higher. The current reapers are just not made for 1v1 mid game.
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Reapers are awesome... if you forget the defense, 25 reapers will destroy your main in a minute...
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they really should bring back the charge mines that were in the alpha. Gosh that would be so much fun for harassing.......vultures that hop cliffs cmon blizzard!
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On June 26 2010 08:49 jgravel wrote:
Reapers are awesome... if you forget the defense, 25 reapers will destroy your main in a minute...
A minute is a really long time...
and 25 reapers are really expensive...
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On June 25 2010 08:58 BlackDraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2010 07:40 jerry507 wrote:
In any case, I don't know if reapers are quite as useless as everyone seems to think. Have you seen what fungal growth does to reapers? mid-late if Z has infestors reapers are not an option.
If you read my post, you'd have seen that I used an example. If you're dropping someones base and they have an infestor back there? Yea, you're pretty much boned. Would having two marines in place of two reapers make you not boned? I don't think so.
It surprises me how many people will post something along the lines of "Omg but ability X is soo much worse for reapers" or like above "Have you seen ability x vs reapers?" when in reality it's the exact same spell vs reapers and marines.
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On June 26 2010 09:10 jerry507 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 08:58 BlackDraft wrote:On June 24 2010 07:40 jerry507 wrote:
In any case, I don't know if reapers are quite as useless as everyone seems to think. Have you seen what fungal growth does to reapers? mid-late if Z has infestors reapers are not an option. If you read my post, you'd have seen that I used an example. If you're dropping someones base and they have an infestor back there? Yea, you're pretty much boned. Would having two marines in place of two reapers make you not boned? I don't think so. It surprises me how many people will post something along the lines of "Omg but ability X is soo much worse for reapers" or like above "Have you seen ability x vs reapers?" when in reality it's the exact same spell vs reapers and marines.
However Marines are more versatile. I think that is what people are trying to point out. Reapers are good at one thing, early harass and building sniping. The problem is Terran's have other units which fulfill those roles and intergate into the main army well.
Until they get an ability which makes them desirable late game, don't expect to see them in standard play.
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On June 26 2010 09:10 jerry507 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 08:58 BlackDraft wrote:On June 24 2010 07:40 jerry507 wrote:
In any case, I don't know if reapers are quite as useless as everyone seems to think. Have you seen what fungal growth does to reapers? mid-late if Z has infestors reapers are not an option. If you read my post, you'd have seen that I used an example. If you're dropping someones base and they have an infestor back there? Yea, you're pretty much boned. Would having two marines in place of two reapers make you not boned? I don't think so. It surprises me how many people will post something along the lines of "Omg but ability X is soo much worse for reapers" or like above "Have you seen ability x vs reapers?" when in reality it's the exact same spell vs reapers and marines.
Reapers, unlike Marines, cost 50 gas. Gas is crucial for Terran, especially mid to late game. Additionally, mid-late v. Zerg, Z likely has infestors, and good sight around their bases with creep and overlords.
As I said before, I don't think reapers are an option in the mid to late game. I hope you find this answer sufficient.
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I've been hit by a pack of ~20 late game reapers. They only managed to destroy my mined out main before I killed them, but if they had targeted unit production/tech I'd have been screwed. This is a failure to scout them on my part, but they deal so much damage so fast I foresee some interesting uses of them in the coming months.
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I think there's potential for them on certain maps. The way I'd see them best used is like mutalisks. When you have mutalisks, you don't really send them to just fight like you would a bunch of roaches or hydralisks. You abuse your mobility and harass him where his army isn't. Now, because reapers don't fly, they are far more restricted than mutalisks, but as I said, depending on the map, they could be really dangerous.
Say, if you had a group of 15 of them on Kulas Ravine. If you scouted your opponent taking an expansion, you just snipe it in a second with those grenades and run before he gets an army there to reinforce. It seems like it could be really effective. You could say that that's a waste of 750minerals/750 gas and 15 supply, but honestly. If you're aware of the existence of siege tanks you're going to have more than enough to keep you safe inside your base, even without that 15 extra supply.
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Most fights are won/lost in large army vs army battles. Reapers have difficulty contributing due to their measly +light and poor health.
However, all that would be required to fix them would be an AI toggle option and possibly an upgrade. The AI toggle option would make them shoot between light military and workers. this would make it much eaisier to micro them so even justing just a few late game pays dividends in terms of the amount of micro they require for you to use and the amount of micro your opponent requires to kill them. An armory upgrade that lets them move and shoot would be devastating as well.
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I understand that reapers do cost a relatively large amount of gas, and I understand that they don't work well in a main army (I said as much in my last post). I am again asking people to look at a very specific instance: a drop. If you build two reapers, it's not a huge investment. The idea that you can mass 10+ reapers does seem highly impractical.
The thing is, reapers are a very niche unit. They have the cliff jump ability and they have this amazing pair of attacks. Somewhere on the forum was a list of DPS per unit type and reapers were pretty far up there. They do more damage against light units than a hydralisk. They almost triple a marine or a marauder against light units.
Ironically, as I pointed out above and literally no one has commented on, reapers and marauders are a fantastic mix. For a drop each one does bonus damage against the opposite type. This synergy would, IMO, make a big difference given that marauders with conc shell slow probes and reapers kill them. The faster the probes die, the more different targets marauders slow and the slow effect multiplies.
Since his words seem to bring more legitimacy and resonance with people, I will invoke Day[9]. He had a daily about harassment and commented that harassment has to be worth it. Two reapers might be 100 gas invested that you are going to lose if your drop goes south. But you're already looking at 100 gas invested in marauders and another 100 in the medivac. Compare that with the potential gain you stand to get from your drop. That's just a choice we'll have to wait for the beta to come back online to analyze.
Also, I think it's relatively misguided to say there are other units in the terran army that fulfill the same purpose. Banshees have a place in harassment but they aren't sustainable long term. Anyone is just going to get air defense right away and you're not harassing anymore. Hellions are a very legitimate choice. Personally from watching replays hellion drops are worth it only if you score a bit hit and that requires a lot of micro to get them right in the thick of things. You're also going to want the preigniter. You can either produce out of your one factory with a techlab if you're going bio or just get it along the way if you're mech. Either way it's somewhat out of the way. If you're going bio, you've got these hellions which are way faster than your bio army and you've got to pay more attention to. If you're going mech then you're not going to be dropping marauders much less getting a bunch of medivacs.
It's frustrating cause I want to go try this
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before the beta went down, some players used reapers in bunkers to make a powere house unit. in essance a bezerker that can't be tutched.
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Reapers are a great harassment unit just because of how mobile they are, as well as how effective they can be vs static defense. I can definitely imagine players sending out a small force of reapers to poke in and out of expansions during the midgame.
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Fungal growth kills them in one spell? I think I saw this in one of the SCLegacy top 10 SC2 plays.
Confirm/Deny?
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36 damage from fungal growth. Given that a reaper has +5 HP over a marine, reapers don't die in one cast of fungal growth.
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Make an upgrade at midgame that will cut their gas cost in exchange of minerals and they would be fine... I think
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Hello all.
I love the reaper and I really like the suggestions that people have been making. Here's my 2 cents.
1) Make the Reaper cost 75 minerals and 25 gas. Some people have mentioned that this would be too overpowered but I disagree. If you have 25 gas to spend on either a Reaper or a Marauder a lot of people are going to choose the Marauder. Obviously some play testing would need to be done though to check this theory.
2) Make the build time of the Reaper 35 seconds. Reapers used to be 30 seconds to build and that was too quick but 40 seconds is way too slow so why not split the difference.
3) Give the Reaper a mid/late game upgrade. The biggest problems with Reapers in mid/late game is they have no place in a large army structure and they are not as effective as other units/unit combinations when harassing. My favorite idea mentioned so far is a Lockdown type ability because it addresses both of these mid/late game deficiencies. This ability would make Reapers SO useful in major battles because they could swoop in and target critical units with Lockdown but since they are so fragile it would require excellent timing and micro.
This ability would also make Reapers WAY more useful at harassing in mid/late game since they would be able to Lockdown small groups of units long enough to harass mineral lines, damage buildings and then retreat. I would favor making this ability an energy based ability (and giving Reapers energy) since it rewards players for keeping Reapers alive for long periods of time but having it on a cooldown would be fine too.
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explain your lock down ability. would it be like wc3 ensnare?
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On June 27 2010 06:25 vT.sOel wrote:
explain your lock down ability. would it be like wc3 ensnare?
I only played WC3 briefly so I can't really say. I didn't come up with this idea, another person posted it earlier, though he didn't go into specific details about it. My thinking was that the ability should make a single unit immobile and unable to attack for a period of time, similar to the Ghost's Lockdown in Brood War. The difference would be that this Lockdown would work for a much shorter period of time but it could also target biological units, not just mechanical ones like the original Ghost's Lockdown. I guess the closest comparison in Starcraft II to this ability would be the Phoenix's Graviton Beam. However, you could also use this ability to create a wall of Lockdowned enemy units in chokes (something the Phoenix can't do.) This would prevent other units from escaping/engaging while the Lockdown was in effect. The Reaper also wouldn't have to channel it so this ability, in my opinion, would be more powerful than the Graviton Beam and therefore it would need to have a shorter duration than Graviton Beam to balance it. Its really tough to say what duration would be balanced but I was thinking maybe 5 seconds for 50 energy. Any thoughts on what duration to energy cost ratio would be balanced?
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On June 27 2010 06:14 NinjaDrone wrote:
Hello all.
I love the reaper and I really like the suggestions that people have been making. Here's my 2 cents.
1) Make the Reaper cost 75 minerals and 25 gas. Some people have mentioned that this would be too overpowered but I disagree. If you have 25 gas to spend on either a Reaper or a Marauder a lot of people are going to choose the Marauder. Obviously some play testing would need to be done though to check this theory.
2) Make the build time of the Reaper 35 seconds. Reapers used to be 30 seconds to build and that was too quick but 40 seconds is way too slow so why not split the difference.
3) Give the Reaper a mid/late game upgrade. The biggest problems with Reapers in mid/late game is they have no place in a large army structure and they are not as effective as other units/unit combinations when harassing. My favorite idea mentioned so far is a Lockdown type ability because it addresses both of these mid/late game deficiencies. This ability would make Reapers SO useful in major battles because they could swoop in and target critical units with Lockdown but since they are so fragile it would require excellent timing and micro.
This ability would also make Reapers WAY more useful at harassing in mid/late game since they would be able to Lockdown small groups of units long enough to harass mineral lines, damage buildings and then retreat. I would favor making this ability an energy based ability (and giving Reapers energy) since it rewards players for keeping Reapers alive for long periods of time but having it on a cooldown would be fine too.
All those 3 changes would be too much.
I would only want 1 change: An upgrade. IMO its totally fine early game, however it is not a good idea to get 1 early game because you have no reason to keep it alive to mid/late game as it is useless. If it had some kind of upgrade if would be fine to get 2-5 early reapers, and then instead of suiciding them after the initial harass for some scouting, you could keep them alive, get the upgrade and use them in mid/late game.
I think giving them mines as an upgrade would be fine. Another possibility would be a range upgrade, so they could stand behind the marines/mauruders in the battles and be usefull there.
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ah i see. in wc3 ensnare immobilizes units but does not prevent them from attacking, although more units in wc3 are melee than there are in sc2.
i think 5 second 50 energy sounds kind of strong. if the reaper died and it persisted than it could be pretty crazy . could be wrong though
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On June 27 2010 06:56 Hider wrote:
All those 3 changes would be too much.
I would only want 1 change: An upgrade. IMO its totally fine early game, however it is not a good idea to get 1 early game because you have no reason to keep it alive to mid/late game as it is useless. If it had some kind of upgrade if would be fine to get 2-5 early reapers, and then instead of suiciding them after the initial harass for some scouting, you could keep them alive, get the upgrade and use them in mid/late game.
I think giving them mines as an upgrade would be fine. Another possibility would be a range upgrade, so they could stand behind the marines/mauruders in the battles and be usefull there.
I completely agree that an upgrade is the most important thing. However, it only addresses part of the problem with Reapers. Reapers are SUPER gas intensive for what you get. Terrans are starved for gas, especially in mid/late game, and the whole goal is to make Reapers more viable in mid/late game. Reducing the gas cost but upping the mineral cost keeps things relatively balanced and addresses this issue. Additionally, reapers also take WAY too long to build. You can build 4 Marauders in the same time that you can build 3 Reapers and the ratio is even more lopsided with Marines. That's huge over time. There is virtually no incentive to get Reapers over Marauders or Marines once you have access to Medivacs.
On June 27 2010 06:56 vT.sOel wrote:
ah i see. in wc3 ensnare immobilizes units but does not prevent them from attacking, although more units in wc3 are melee than there are in sc2.
i think 5 second 50 energy sounds kind of strong. if the reaper died and it persisted than it could be pretty crazy . could be wrong though
Yeah, its really tough to say what would be balanced. Granted, the Phoenix's Graviton Beam does last 10 seconds and the Sentry's Forcefield lasts 15 seconds so 5 seconds is rather short by comparison for the same amount of energy. This, of course, is all speculation though.
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On June 27 2010 07:31 NinjaDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2010 06:56 Hider wrote:
All those 3 changes would be too much.
I would only want 1 change: An upgrade. IMO its totally fine early game, however it is not a good idea to get 1 early game because you have no reason to keep it alive to mid/late game as it is useless. If it had some kind of upgrade if would be fine to get 2-5 early reapers, and then instead of suiciding them after the initial harass for some scouting, you could keep them alive, get the upgrade and use them in mid/late game.
I think giving them mines as an upgrade would be fine. Another possibility would be a range upgrade, so they could stand behind the marines/mauruders in the battles and be usefull there. I completely agree that an upgrade is the most important thing. However, it only addresses part of the problem with Reapers. Reapers are SUPER gas intensive for what you get. Terrans are starved for gas, especially in mid/late game, and the whole goal is to make Reapers more viable in mid/late game. Reducing the gas cost but upping the mineral cost keeps things relatively balanced and addresses this issue. Additionally, reapers also take WAY too long to build. You can build 4 Marauders in the same time that you can build 3 Reapers and the ratio is even more lopsided with Marines. That's huge over time. There is virtually no incentive to get Reapers over Marauders or Marines once you have access to Medivacs.
Regarding the gas cost, I agree that if you go mech, the use of the reaper is pretty limited, and you would rather spent the gas on somewhere else. On the other hand if the upgrade was a "mine-upgrade" it would work very well with mech, and terran will therefore be willing to sacrifice 1-2 to tanks to get 2 reapers out with the mineupgrade.
Also I dont agree with bio being very gasheavy. Sure you cant get pure mauruders + lots of medivacs + reapers. But instead you might have to get a 50-50 relationsship between marines and mauruders making you being able to add a few reapers in. If the reaper got the range upgrade it would be extremely strong together with the bio army + it would be able to make a lot of succesful harass and get away quickly. It would be able to hit and run units such as sentries, roaches, queens + of course buildings and workers very efficiently.
This gives it some uses that the mauruder right now does not have.
Right now both the marines + the maurder gets countered by zealots with speed upgrade. However the reaper does an insane amount of DPS against the zealot. It does 21 DPS against a stimmed maurduers 13!.
So if the protoss players get mostly stalkers you just get mauruders, however if he gets zealots, you will be better of getting a few reapers with range upgrade.
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Why would you want to hit and run roaches or queens with reapers? Neither unit is light. I don't see Blizzard radically changing the reaper from it's current place. It's always going to be:
1. More expensive than a marine
2. Higher DPS than a marine
3. Specialized against light ground units and buildings
4. Short range
5. High mobility (speed + cliff jump)
These things very much define the reaper as distinct from a marine. They're expensive specialized units, why not use them as such?
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I see everyone ignored my post. Seriously, try to build 3 racks, get reaper speed upgrade and build 9-10 reapers. Then go and rape Zergs base. Keep only one reaper by your wall so the zerg does not know that you have a huge bunch. If you arrive after mutas then you fucked up your timing. Be sure to scan the Zerg tech before comiting to this, if Zerg went early roach then you are fucked.
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On June 27 2010 08:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2010 07:31 NinjaDrone wrote:On June 27 2010 06:56 Hider wrote:
All those 3 changes would be too much.
I would only want 1 change: An upgrade. IMO its totally fine early game, however it is not a good idea to get 1 early game because you have no reason to keep it alive to mid/late game as it is useless. If it had some kind of upgrade if would be fine to get 2-5 early reapers, and then instead of suiciding them after the initial harass for some scouting, you could keep them alive, get the upgrade and use them in mid/late game.
I think giving them mines as an upgrade would be fine. Another possibility would be a range upgrade, so they could stand behind the marines/mauruders in the battles and be usefull there. I completely agree that an upgrade is the most important thing. However, it only addresses part of the problem with Reapers. Reapers are SUPER gas intensive for what you get. Terrans are starved for gas, especially in mid/late game, and the whole goal is to make Reapers more viable in mid/late game. Reducing the gas cost but upping the mineral cost keeps things relatively balanced and addresses this issue. Additionally, reapers also take WAY too long to build. You can build 4 Marauders in the same time that you can build 3 Reapers and the ratio is even more lopsided with Marines. That's huge over time. There is virtually no incentive to get Reapers over Marauders or Marines once you have access to Medivacs. Regarding the gas cost, I agree that if you go mech, the use of the reaper is pretty limited, and you would rather spent the gas on somewhere else. On the other hand if the upgrade was a "mine-upgrade" it would work very well with mech, and terran will therefore be willing to sacrifice 1-2 to tanks to get 2 reapers out with the mineupgrade. Also I dont agree with bio being very gasheavy. Sure you cant get pure mauruders + lots of medivacs + reapers. But instead you might have to get a 50-50 relationsship between marines and mauruders making you being able to add a few reapers in. If the reaper got the range upgrade it would be extremely strong together with the bio army + it would be able to make a lot of succesful harass and get away quickly. It would be able to hit and run units such as sentries, roaches, queens + of course buildings and workers very efficiently. This gives it some uses that the mauruder right now does not have. Right now both the marines + the maurder gets countered by zealots with speed upgrade. However the reaper does an insane amount of DPS against the zealot. It does 21 DPS against a stimmed maurduers 13!. So if the protoss players get mostly stalkers you just get mauruders, however if he gets zealots, you will be better of getting a few reapers with range upgrade.
Very good points. I think the mineral cost change is the least important of the things that need to be changed, build time is second most important and new ability is the most important. If I was Blizzard I would implement one and see how it affected balance and if things were still unbalanced then move on to the next buff etc.
I really like the mine upgrade but I personally like the Lockdown ability I described more (though I would be immensely happy if Blizzard implemented either.) I am hesitant about giving Reapers a range upgrade because I think it would sway the low tech ground battle way too much in favor of the Terrans. Protoss needs more than just Colossi as an answer to Terran Infantry. Plus, giving Terran a solid counter to the Zealot would give players little reason to get Zealots (besides being a cheap-ish meat shield that gives your other units time to get off some attacks.) After all, the whole reason why Reapers aren't effective is they are easily countered by Stalkers, Queens, etc. I don't want to see the Zealot go the same way and be easily countered as well. Plus, a range upgrade would make the Reaper extremely powerful against Zerglings and Hydralisks, thereby reducing their usefulness as well (ahhh! more roaches and banelings!)
The Reaper has so much potential, its all a question of what role they should have. I really like the fact that the Reaper is a high risk, high reward, balls out unit. I feel like the mines and the lockdown special abilities embrace that ethos while the range upgrade does not. The range upgrade makes the reaper a more "safe" unit in my mind.
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The problem with Reapers is that they don't make a particularly useful unit in army compositions. This is why they are only used early game--before you HAVE an army.
I really want to experiment with some mid-late game Reaper building harass. Essentially, this would be the point in the game when the enemy has moved their army out of their main--whether it be before or after a big push.
Move into the back of their main with 7 or 8 Reapers, and slam away at their Nexus. While they are moving their army in to respond (which they will at least move a portion to deal with 8 Reapers), launch an attack on an expo...or I think it would be especially cool to try this out with a Reaper/Ghost Nuke harass..
Scout the enemy's army...Attack a base w/ Reapers, wait 10 seconds, call down a nuke on the other base. I'd like to try this stuff out, cuz I feel that Reapers and Nukes are underused mid-endgame.
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I also believe that mid-late game reaper play, if at all viable, is map-specific.
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In TvT, let's say you are going mech (I think you should in TvT anyway).
since you are not using your barracks as a main unit producing structure, you can throw down a tech lab and make a few reapers (whenever, this can be mid/late game) and use them for harassment separate from your main tank-viking army (also , fyi, marauder-thor beats tank-viking).
If you are going marauder-thor, u need ur barracks for marauders - building reapers can be dangerous.
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If it's TvZ, and you are going mech (hellion thor tank) reapers can be your harassing unit. Not only do they pwn workers but also snipe buildings. When making a push, you can just send them into Z's main, and when his army moves back, make a push into his natural with your real army. The only price impact in this build might be the fact that you will wind up having more hellions that tanks and thors cause of the reaper's gas price. I'm also not talking a lot of reapers - maybe just 1 to 2 rax producing them. But mass a group of them before attacking in mid/late game.
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In TvP, you shouldn't get reapers at all. Way too much of a risk IMO
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In this thread I see a lot of heavy handed or "forced" approaches to "fix" the Reaper's lack of mid-late game play.
As Jinro suggested in this thread (and I have suggested in many other threads) moving them to the Reactor might be a decent way to increase their usage later in the game (while simultaneously delaying reaper rushes, at the trade off of having to deal with two instead of one - but without the marauder follow-up).
I personally think this would be the "best" solution without breaking the unit or requiring significant amounts of additional balancing.
It might be easiest, and most reasonable, to simply adjust their damage, making them do more base damage and less bonus damage to light, while keeping the total damage to light the same. This will only be a minor buff to the unit which will not change its overall early game effectiveness. It will allow the Reaper to be marginally more effective once regrouped with the main bio ball however which might just make them reasonably viable to mass a control group or so in the later stages of the game.
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On July 01 2010 04:10 STS17 wrote:
In this thread I see a lot of heavy handed or "forced" approaches to "fix" the Reaper's lack of mid-late game play.
As Jinro suggested in this thread (and I have suggested in many other threads) moving them to the Reactor might be a decent way to increase their usage later in the game (while simultaneously delaying reaper rushes, at the trade off of having to deal with two instead of one - but without the marauder follow-up).
I personally think this would be the "best" solution without breaking the unit or requiring significant amounts of additional balancing.
It might be easiest, and most reasonable, to simply adjust their damage, making them do more base damage and less bonus damage to light, while keeping the total damage to light the same. This will only be a minor buff to the unit which will not change its overall early game effectiveness. It will allow the Reaper to be marginally more effective once regrouped with the main bio ball however which might just make them reasonably viable to mass a control group or so in the later stages of the game.
Im totally with you on this but they could instead or also give them some kind of smoke grenade ability that would limit the vision of the ennemies caugh in it (or any other cool effect). It would make them a great addition for tvt main fights where tanks and vikings are nearly the only options right now. I also think of this ability because imo terran and the whole sc2 game lack of skill and timing involved abilites.
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EPT
