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On June 05 2010 04:24 Edmon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks. You are incorrect here. Sorry. For example, first on your list is marines. 3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily. Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran. Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines. Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper.
Additionally, speedlings dominate Reapers in terms of cost. Hydras also rape Reapers. Maybe if there are 1-2 Hydras, yes you will do well. But with 5 or more Hydras, attacking is just throwing away all the gas/time you spent on Reapers.
I just don't think a Terran is going to be able to have a viable Reaper play after the very early game (at least against Zerg). Speedlings can cover ground even better than Reapers can and Queens will act as decent control zones against them.
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On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely.
BUMP
late game teran need ALL the gass they can get for other units.. its just not cost effective to throw it away. i play zerg and i love throwing mineals away mid and late game flanking an expo with zerglings while i hit thier main with my main army.. but ONLY because they dont cost gas!
if i per say did a flank with reapers and it failed its a HUGE loss
in game 4 tlo vs nazgul he flanked with marines and got the natual down.. it would have been even more epic if he did it with reapers imo
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stop comparing reapers to soldier units...
reapers are clearly a harrass unit. although i've used them in a bunker on occasion to deal with early all-in rushes because they destroy every t1 unit instantly.
probably not the most efficient unit, but on some maps you can really devastate protoss with upgraded reapers, hopping up cliff and sniping pylons. with ~8 reapers a pylon goes down in about 4 seconds. with the speed upgrade, cliff hopping and building damage i find them far more versatile than the banshee.
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Mid game i used reapers to scout high ground for sieged tanks and ghost nuke, i even used a reaper squad to attrack enemies on a nuke spot, very effective, you destroy the workers and army of your opponent. 1 Dropship, 1 ghost, 7 reapers
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Give the reapers another upgrade in the tech lab for faster rate of fire and/or bonus damage to light. Making them effective against Hydra and zerglings.
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On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely.
50 gas is cost effective to you? way better spent on other units in almost every case except maybe reaper bunker vs FE Zerg. that's the real reason their not practical on high level play. Hellions are more cost effective anti light. 0 gas.
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People are comparing them to firebats, and I don't think that's quite fair. Firebats were cheaper, slower, and had AoE and stimpacks. Reapers are more akin to vultures in my opinion, but without the spider mines. Look at them this way and you'll start to realize why no one uses them outside the early game.
EDIT: Other facts I would like the bring to people attention: speedlings will always be faster than reapers, regardless of nitro packs. Reapers also only have 4.5 range, which makes them nearly impossible to micro against anything with more range than a roach.
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I think that in addition to their base-raiding abilities, reapers need to ability to effectively harass late-game armies in order to be a viable mid-late game unit.
Reapers should be given a tier 2 researchable timer mines ability. They would be similar to spider mines, but instead of being proximity-activated, they would explode after, say, 5 seconds regardless of whether an enemy was in the vicinity or not. This would allow all sorts of versatility for the reaper, such as laying the mines in a choke point before an enemy army arrives, or deploying them during an engagement to force an enemy retreat before the 5 seconds was up.
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lol if you have one rax pumping reapers most of the game, run around nuking cc's n stuff when you get 8~ reapers. Doesn't work on good players but you'd be surprised how often you can catch people off guard and instantly nuke their nexus/cc/hatch.
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What about reapers on bunkers?
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reapers do huge amage to light but are weak ..... only putting them in a bunker seems logical to me ..... although they don't shoot air, but they twarp any plans of harrassing with light units from the enemy.
So protecting them with bunkers is the only logical explanation
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i agree with the point that reapers need some kind of upgrade to make them more viable in the late game. an idea is we make an upgrade on the tech lab witch needs an armory to work that ethir :reduces build time, adds range, increases health or adds a thowable d8 charge, like a spider mine yet visible and blows up afer say 10 second.
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On June 05 2010 07:13 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 04:24 Edmon wrote:On June 05 2010 04:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Reapers absolutely destroy (cost effectively)
Marines
Hellions
SCVs
Zerglings
Hydralisks
Drones
Zealots
High Templar
Probes
Buildings.
People aren't good at micro really yet or macro even. and flanking vs roach/hydra or zealot/HT can be devastating. 5 reapers 1 shot high templar rapidly. AND they have the ability to get behind a zealot line to actually attack them. same with hydralisks. You are incorrect here. Sorry. For example, first on your list is marines. 3 marines cost 150 minerals and will beat one Reaper 50/50 easily. Most agree gas = x2 minerals and you will always be starving for gas as a terran. Plus, you don't need a tech lab for 3 marines. Reapers beating Hellons for cost? Really? A single Hellion is cheaper than a single Reaper. Additionally, speedlings dominate Reapers in terms of cost. Hydras also rape Reapers. Maybe if there are 1-2 Hydras, yes you will do well. But with 5 or more Hydras, attacking is just throwing away all the gas/time you spent on Reapers. I just don't think a Terran is going to be able to have a viable Reaper play after the very early game (at least against Zerg). Speedlings can cover ground even better than Reapers can and Queens will act as decent control zones against them.
Actually hydras are the only combat unit reapers are good against(they can beat zealots if they are unsupported, but that never happens outside of a rush, so they aren't effective in combat vs them). What is left of his list are workers and units/buildings without an attack and reapers better fucking be cost effective against defenseless buildings or units...
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Make them cost 50/25 :D
Although that would probably be OP at the beginning >_>
Frankly I find them very useful against zeals, zerglings and even marines. Just a few marauders with Reapers on follow will destroy the above units. Of course if they mass roach/stalk/maraud then you're dead...
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What they should probably do is make the det packs an upgrade (possibly requiring a factory/engineering bay)... and make them better.
Say keep the same cooldown but move them to 40 damage (100-100 upgrade)
so early game reapers can still slaughter the workers
mid-late they can take out the entire expansion.
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On June 06 2010 05:16 LiAlH4 wrote:
I think that in addition to their base-raiding abilities, reapers need to ability to effectively harass late-game armies in order to be a viable mid-late game unit.
Reapers should be given a tier 2 researchable timer mines ability. They would be similar to spider mines, but instead of being proximity-activated, they would explode after, say, 5 seconds regardless of whether an enemy was in the vicinity or not. This would allow all sorts of versatility for the reaper, such as laying the mines in a choke point before an enemy army arrives, or deploying them during an engagement to force an enemy retreat before the 5 seconds was up.
I like this idea the best. Give each reaper one mine, that does like, 25+50~ damage to structures? It would two shot workers, and be able to take down certain structures. And you wouldn't be able to just run in and det pack a Nexus, unless you had 20 reapers saved up.
EDIT: Changed damage, realized it would be ridiculously over powered.
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The thing that really kills reapers is their build time only. I think if they made reapers the same speed as a zealot without the speed upgrade but made them build as fast as Marauders, it would balance them better for early game and make them much more viable later in the game.
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On June 05 2010 03:22 Sputty wrote:
One of the big problems with the whole 'make a bunch in mid game to harass' is that they take a long time to construct and use up your barracks for way too long. Terran production is already limited somewhat
^ This is why reapers aren't ever viable as a mid to large sized force. You just can't afford to make so many barracks and have them used up producing reapers. You'll end up with no real army which makes any reaper play past an early harass an all-in.
I think a late upgrade (perhaps researched at tech lab after armory) to give them a spider-mine kind of ability would be amazing and make terran even more fun to play. I think spider-mines are a defining characteristic of the terran race.
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On June 06 2010 07:07 tathecat563 wrote:
Frankly I find them very useful against zeals, zerglings and even marines. Just a few marauders with Reapers on follow will destroy the above units. Of course if they mass roach/stalk/maraud then you're dead...
technically no barracks unit beats zealots standing and fighting, but if you have marauders tanking for you, one reaper has a DPS of 16 and two stimmed marines have a DPS of 21. i know that's not a 100% fair comparison since reapers are one food, but marines can be reactored, and most people would agree 100/0 is cheaper than 50/50, especially considering that more early gas = faster ghosts
against zerglings i don't think there's any way you can argue reapers are better than hellions, the splash is just ridiculous once you get preigniter, and the extra speed is crucial. hellions are slightly slower than speedlings, but they're fast enough to not get surrounded, which reapers aren't
marines vs reapers is about dead even, whoever get the first shot off wins, and i'd much, much rather have two marines in a TvT so i can get some extra damage in against the vikings and banshees and have free gas for vikings of my own. i mean... you don't seriously do that do you? reapers as a combat unit in TvT? i call shenanigans on that
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On June 05 2010 08:59 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 02:51 Ocedic wrote:
Actually, their stats are great. They're one of the most, if not THE most, cost effective way to destroy buildings. They can enter bases extremely easily and they make good scouts.
Their only downside is the fact that they cost 50 gas. That's their biggest weakness right there. However, they remain a viable option against someone who is going heavy on econ. If you mount any sort of attack, you can sneak reapers into a mineral line and wreak havoc. If your enemy is heavy on light units, they can also augment your force nicely. 50 gas is cost effective to you? way better spent on other units in almost every case except maybe reaper bunker vs FE Zerg. that's the real reason their not practical on high level play. Hellions are more cost effective anti light. 0 gas.
Can you read? I said cost effective way to destroy buildings. The only other unit that might compare is the Immortal, and that's a different type of unit.
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EPT
