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Active: 1624 users

Worker splitting: Does it really matter? - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 20:11:58
June 02 2010 20:11 GMT
#81
I just have alot of love for the F1 manual 6 drone split ;P makes me feel pr0 and now i know that how you split dosnt matter. so who cares ? ;D
"Mudkip"
Qwerty.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States292 Posts
June 02 2010 20:14 GMT
#82
Just did a test on a build order map by qxc with a timer.

1. 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord, 14 pool
Pool time: 1:17
Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 minerals / 16 drones / 2 overlords

2. 10 overlord, no extractor trick, 13 pool
Pool time: 1:22
Resources at 2 minutes: ~220 / 16 drones / 2 overlords

3. 10 overlord, extractor trick, 14 pool
Pool time: 1:20 (you can GREATLY reduce this if you don't build the 14th drone)
Resources at 2 minutes: ~250 / 16 drones / 2 overlords


Conclusion: All are basically the same, 10 overlord, extractor trick is marginally optimal


from a thread about the extractor trick--can you test this as well?
Unclemom
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3 Posts
June 02 2010 20:15 GMT
#83
Thanks for doing this. I've been arguing with people about it and they never believed me. Maybe after I show them your data they will.
Down the rabbit hole
wanderer
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States641 Posts
June 02 2010 20:16 GMT
#84
On June 03 2010 03:16 Arrian wrote:
if this is indeed true it's depressing

Fuck you, I have a degree in mathematics and I speak 12 languages. (I called the World Cup final in 2008 btw)
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 20:36:08
June 02 2010 20:22 GMT
#85
On June 03 2010 04:31 virgozero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2010 04:28 Snowfield wrote:
It never adds up, its going to be .5 forever, since you only do it once .)


sigh no it doesn't, but im too lazy to explain the exponential gain.


That's because it remains .5 seconds forever, and it is very difficult to explain something that is false.

If you build an scv .5 seconds faster, all of his gathers will be forever .5 seconds faster, meaning you have that .5 second mineral advantage at least until you over-saturate your mineral line. For every SCV you continuously make after this, all of their gathers will be .5 seconds faster. Say you get your first SCV out .5 seconds faster, and you continuously build SCVs to 2 per patch, you've gained .5 seconds on 8 minerals x 10 scvs, or 80 minerals .5 seconds faster. Once you begin to over-saturate (or fully saturate, depending on your view) to 3 workers per patch, this time will normalize back to 0 due to SCV mining AI.

In short: You gain a soft cap of ~80mins .5 seconds faster until mid-game. You do not gain minerals at a faster rate, but you simply get a few of them very slightly faster. This is not exponential gain, and this is not any game-changing difference or any game-impacting difference, I don't care how gosu you are.



So what the hell is exponential mineral gain and how do I factor it into my play?

If it's a decision to make SCV or UNIT, then one must factor that you're losing 5 minerals per ~10 seconds times a factor of how many SCVs you could make that begin producing in that time. This loss compounds exponentially until you resume SCV production, but then promptly freezes when you resume production.

This is the exponential gain you're incorrectly referring to. If you halt SCV production less than or equal to 1 SCV (20 seconds? I never look), then it's linear, but as soon as you eclipse the 1SCV build time, it becomes exponential, and your loss will increase exponentially until you begin mining again.



edit: Also to OP, thank you so much for taking the time to post that! It confirmed my suspicions, but it's still always nice to see raw data like this.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
AlliNPreFlop
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
59 Posts
June 02 2010 20:22 GMT
#86
If you F1+Click split hella fast, you probably gain a...5-10minerals advantage, which doesn't change anything at all..
I do it for the coolness :D
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
June 02 2010 20:23 GMT
#87
There may be errors from the tester just not being able to do certain methods as quickly, you know. Certainly, if you had infinite APM, individual split will be better than AI split (unless you guys have weird versions of the game where the workers automatically move to the closest patches). Also, being an exponential regression, I'd assume you'd have to test for much longer.

In the end, it matters, just not as much as it did in SC1. I don't see it as a flaw, though. It's such a marginal part of the game that I don't feel it really even matters. So what if people spend an extra 10 minutes of their life practicing just their worker split? After those 10 minutes, everyone is on even footing anyways.
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
June 02 2010 20:24 GMT
#88
Thanks for making SC2 a noob version of BW-in-3D. This sucks.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
June 02 2010 20:25 GMT
#89
On June 03 2010 05:22 AlliNPreFlop wrote:
If you F1+Click split hella fast, you probably gain a...5-10minerals advantage, which doesn't change anything at all..
I do it for the coolness :D


If you mis-click once, you lose all of it and then some.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
perfectflaw72
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada94 Posts
June 02 2010 20:25 GMT
#90
i think its just a apm thing for people to warm up not really a advantage thing
B.net is down :( but Summers UP :D
Adeeler
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom764 Posts
June 02 2010 20:26 GMT
#91
Its something to do when you start I mean top players can 3 split like Idra and I never thought it matters.

What would be more interesting is how important re-rallying to different mineral patchs is and if there is a preferred easy re-rally to get the job done pain free. Maybe just rallying to top and bottom minerals and then middle at the end leaving it at that.

The thing that makes me not see any return from splitting is that you maynard when you expo or at least should and that ruins your splits so was it really worth the effort of rerallying so much? I don't think so but is only slightly worth it if you have apm to spare.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
June 02 2010 20:31 GMT
#92
Yea, personally I feel rerallying probes so that they arrive right as the previous probe leaves mining or having 2 probes stacked at a close mineral patch vs far one has a larger effect than splitting. Maybe someone should test this.
GreatestThreat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States631 Posts
June 02 2010 20:32 GMT
#93
Haha, oh this makes me happy. All the elitists out there who wanted a strategy game to be won based on gimmicky mechanical tricks, instead of, uhm, strategy, it looks like it doesn't work that way after all. The new macro mechanics that have been added to make up for things like MBS and autosplit are much superior due to requiring players to make decisions in their application (except for inject larvae, sadly...).

However since discovering the F1 method I've actually grown to like it a lot as it gets me warmed up at the start of the game, so I will continue to do that.
"I'm ethereal! My children are legion, serial! They stick to my skin like beloved cysts... I TEAR AWAY WITH MY NAILS AND TEETH AND FISTS!"
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
June 02 2010 20:32 GMT
#94
interesting but academic. despite idiots like monion who are spazzing about autosplit, this is a non-issue. if you have a problem with MBS / auto-mining / infinite unit select at least your pet issue has a non-negligible impact on gameplay. compared with those three, autosplit is not worth discussing. it comes down to a question of to automate or not to automate, and we've already automated the major players so who gives a fuck about autosplit. if you're not dexterous enough to successfully perform a split the rest is history
MrBitter: Phoenixes... They're like flying hellions. Always cost efficient.
AncienTs
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan227 Posts
June 02 2010 20:34 GMT
#95
If all data is true, this is definitely bad news because it means the skill gradient just became slightly smaller..

sigh
Starcraft Disclaimer Language: There is no imbalance, nothing is OP.
bias-
Profile Joined October 2004
United States410 Posts
June 02 2010 20:36 GMT
#96
On June 03 2010 03:16 Arrian wrote:
if this is indeed true it's depressing


Agreed. Sarcastic or not, watching new, probably just SC2, posters in this thread is even more dejecting.

On June 03 2010 03:21 woolly wrote:
I suck at splitting anyways, I more often screw it up than get it right. Good riddance!

On June 03 2010 03:26 Krowser wrote:
This means I now have a few more seconds to appreciate the nice graphics of this game instead of spending more time destroying my mouse.

Sweet!!

On June 03 2010 03:31 Backpack wrote:
It is fantastic!

I love how more new players are finally getting to play the game! Good job blizzard

On June 03 2010 04:36 Ballistixz wrote:
the game auto splits FOR YOU. of course it doesnt matter -_-. ppl that do split is just trying to separate themselves from the "bad players" when in reality it doesn't mean shit if u split workers at start or not.
For serious minds, a bias recognized is a bias sterilized.
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
June 02 2010 20:36 GMT
#97
lol people who think you skill is defined by splitting your workers.. haha
Mada Mada Dane
RoMarX
Profile Joined April 2010
Argentina189 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 20:40:29
June 02 2010 20:37 GMT
#98
On June 03 2010 04:09 ChickenLips wrote:
1. I always am able to qeue up a 2nd worker just before the first one finishes, no matter if i split or not and i train the worker first, then send the workers mining.

2. It really doesn't matter and I LOVE how Blizzard isn't rewarding stupid, brainless macro practice like in BW (yeah I know, you all love BW and everything was perfect in the good old days..), but allows for much more decision making.

People are obviously going to complain if what they are used to is replaced by something new and different. Let's give the game some time. (Like Day9 said)


haha good way to explain it.
also i never thought the splitting matters AT ALL, even starting some seconds latter wouldnt make any difference. the games almost never are that close that it would matter being a few seconds ahead

lol @ people being depressed for this. so sad lifes :/
Hellooo!!!!!!!
Whiplash
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2928 Posts
June 02 2010 20:41 GMT
#99
Ya I stopped splitting a month or so ago, I just realized trying to split sometimes messed up my workers and just right clicking 1 patch did all the work for me.
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator. Former Starcraft commentator/player
charlie420247
Profile Joined November 2009
United States692 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 20:45:14
June 02 2010 20:42 GMT
#100
in sc1 it matters ALOT. in sc2 ive never noticed a difference.

i tell them all to go mine and they slit on thier own lol. might make a milisecond or a whole seconds difference. if the game comes this close then who cares if you lose. at least it was close. i rarely ever play a game anymore where theres not a very clear winner.

and i seriously hate trying to split and screwing up one click and a drone goes behind a min patch and starts smoking a cigarette like hes on freakin lunch break or somthing.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who dont.
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