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On June 03 2010 05:55 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 05:48 Kultcher wrote:On June 03 2010 05:36 Kyuki wrote:
lol people who think you skill is defined by splitting your workers.. haha This. The elitism in this thread is just absurd. Do you really want the first 3 seconds of the game to be the measure of your skill as a player? Give me a break. Elitism? Elitism is 'We should be given a large advantage because we split and they don't'. These are gamers saying 'We should be rewarded for our superior mechanical abilities.' The second one is reasonable, and that's what people want. Maybe the split isn't the exact issue, and it probably shouldn't be, but it could be/sort of seems like they intentionally made the split not matter, which would seem an attempt at marginalizing the little things that separate players.
The thing is, some people think it's not reasonable to give an advantage for something so small like a split. Both sides are understandable, and there is no "right" answer.
To be honest, I don't think any pro-level player would be physically incapable of pulling of an awesome split in the first place, which is really all that matters :D
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interesting, i was never any good a splitting but in sc2 i dont feel like as much of a failure as when i tried and messed up in bw, i send them all to one patch let auto split take care of the rest and then cue a probe( i play protoss)
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Really, the only guys complaining here must be the ones who played BW, because i can not imagine that anyone who hasn't played BW before (like me) could care less for splitting his drones. It's sending your worker to mine. It's nothing more. Get it over with. Yes you've aquired an ability in BW that is now useless in SC2, just like manual surrounding and properly moving your Dragoon from A to B without him getting stuck up his own ass. So what?
There is PLENTY of skill to develop in SC2 and the skill needed (even on the most basic macro level) is most likely much higher than ANY of the SC2 players has right now. There are enough tasks to do and to learn. Splitting Drones is not one of them and if you ask any non-BW player he'll tell you that this should be that way.
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On June 03 2010 04:50 Kletus wrote:
Further testing reveals that I get:
390 @ 1min with f1 CONSISTENTLY.
385 @ 1min with nosplit with optimal AI outcome.
380 @ 1min with halfsplit with optimal AI outcome.
All tests were on the build order tester map with the terran race.
We're seeing a lot of conflicting data in thread. Kletus' data clearly is showing there is a slight advantage to a good F1 split. Would been nice if someone could perform a study that did 10-20 test runs for each method and wrote up the results. I feel like we need more data before we start panicking here..
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On June 03 2010 06:14 TheNihilist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 04:50 Kletus wrote:
Further testing reveals that I get:
390 @ 1min with f1 CONSISTENTLY.
385 @ 1min with nosplit with optimal AI outcome.
380 @ 1min with halfsplit with optimal AI outcome.
All tests were on the build order tester map with the terran race.
We're seeing a lot of conflicting data in thread. Kletus' data clearly is showing there is a slight advantage to a good F1 split. Would been nice if someone could perform a study that did 10-20 test runs for each method and wrote up the results. I feel like we need more data before we start panicking here..
I'd also recommend people use the slowest game speed for the tests to minimize small differences in timings.
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On June 03 2010 04:51 Jalex wrote:
I stopped worker splitting a while back, as I suspected it made no real difference. Not because I sucked and often ended up by mis-clicking and costing myself minerals.
Honest.
I can't tell you how many times I fail at autosplit and click behind the minerals entirely. In any case it's way too often.
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wow. I'm so glad the results turned out like that. There's macro, theres micro, and then theres ultra micro.
Macro = buildings, # of workers produced, units produced, expansions
Micro = controlling unit commands, positioning, scouting, harass
Ultra-micro = splitting scvs, move-shot, individually aiming each unit in an army
I am very glad ultra-micro is gone and this post confirmed it basically.
Being able to split scvs should NOT have an impact on your macro otherwise people will gain advantages just because they are a better mouse clicker. If I wanted to play a mouse clicking game, there are tons of flash games all over the internet, sc2 is a real time strategy game. In war, a soldier will tell an officer to shoot a target, but not HOW to shoot the target. Removing ultra-micro makes sense to me.
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So basically, we have people claiming that reducing the rewards of superior mechanics is fine and anyone thinking otherwise is an elitist.. on a forum dedicated to a game that is insanely mechanic dependent. Every minute should reward skill, mechanics and pratice. Of course there are gaps where players can only spam, but let's not try to include even more gaps.
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On June 03 2010 06:23 Zamkis wrote:
So basically, we have people claiming that reducing the rewards of superior mechanics is fine and anyone thinking otherwise is an elitist.. on a forum dedicated to a game that is insanely mechanic dependent. Every minute should reward skill, mechanics and pratice. Of course there are gaps where players can only spam, but let's not try to include even more gaps.
The people calling elitist, or at least me, are just pointing out that a .5 second input mechanic gap on a game that plays out in 15-30 minutes is really no big deal. It's especially true since it's at the start of the game where all the other gaps occur.
It's not that I'd call for worker split to be removed if it actually made a difference, I'm completely apathetic. I just think it's the most meaningless game mechanic skill test ever, other than being mandatory if it exists; so freaking out over it being removed makes you look stupid.
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On June 03 2010 06:23 Zamkis wrote:
So basically, we have people claiming that reducing the rewards of superior mechanics is fine and anyone thinking otherwise is an elitist.. on a forum dedicated to a game that is insanely mechanic dependent. Every minute should reward skill, mechanics and pratice. Of course there are gaps where players can only spam, but let's not try to include even more gaps.
I think the point is that sc2 is less about mechanics than scbw. It means players will be able to focus more on strategic play rather than mechanics which is great for everyone, even those that have perfect mechanics. It means that the forums will talk more about strategies to deal with certain scenarios than how to deal with muta micro harass. It means units are not overpowered if intensely microed which means players can focus on the overall game than perfecting a single maneuver. In general it means better, more strategic games, more playability for less perfect players, and more competition in the pro leagues. There might not be any magical play with mutas anymore, but there are units to replace with abilities that are easier to master.
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On June 03 2010 03:29 bITt.mAN wrote:
As a science major, I must examine your experimental method. How many trials of each method did you do? (Chooses to doubt and fight the results than accept them as they are depressing)
Never heard of a science major before.
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On June 03 2010 06:32 zJayy962 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 03:29 bITt.mAN wrote:
As a science major, I must examine your experimental method. How many trials of each method did you do? (Chooses to doubt and fight the results than accept them as they are depressing) Never heard of a science major before.
Maybe he got a degree in science as an art form?
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i never did a mathematical analysis, but i just reasoned that the fractions of a second saved by splitting would be wholly useless unless the game was being played by a computer. any person will make hundreds of imperfect moves in any given game. the chance that getting a few minerals a few seconds sooner will end up winning you the game is essentially nonexistent. No, really. Think about it. What if you get your hatchery down at 310 minerals? what if you leave an SCV idle for a few seconds? what if you get supply blocked? there so many thousands of things a player won't do perfectly in a game that the chance of a split making the difference is infinitely small to nonexistent.
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Splitting is like the easiest "mechanic" there is. If it did make an appreciable difference, anyone who wanted to could and would get it down flawlessly. The fact that it apparently doesn't makes no difference in the "skill gradient" because the skills you really need to be good at this game are MUCH harder to learn, let alone perfect than some fancy split.
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On June 03 2010 03:29 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 03:21 woolly wrote:
I suck at splitting anyways, I more often screw it up than get it right. Good riddance! and another terrible player moves up in the ranks due to Blizzard's pathetic blessing. Fantastic. this is like the saddest thing ever.
THIS JUST IN: SPENDING TIME TRAINING MUSCLE MEMORY TO SPLIT WORKERS IS ACTUALLY HIGHLY SKILLED.
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8751 Posts
On June 03 2010 06:17 darmousseh wrote:
wow. I'm so glad the results turned out like that. There's macro, theres micro, and then theres ultra micro.
Macro = buildings, # of workers produced, units produced, expansions
Micro = controlling unit commands, positioning, scouting, harass
Ultra-micro = splitting scvs, move-shot, individually aiming each unit in an army
I am very glad ultra-micro is gone and this post confirmed it basically.
Being able to split scvs should NOT have an impact on your macro otherwise people will gain advantages just because they are a better mouse clicker. If I wanted to play a mouse clicking game, there are tons of flash games all over the internet, sc2 is a real time strategy game. In war, a soldier will tell an officer to shoot a target, but not HOW to shoot the target. Removing ultra-micro makes sense to me.
Prioritizing roleplay over gameplay won't gain you much ground around these parts.
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On June 03 2010 06:17 darmousseh wrote:
wow. I'm so glad the results turned out like that. There's macro, theres micro, and then theres ultra micro.
Macro = buildings, # of workers produced, units produced, expansions
Micro = controlling unit commands, positioning, scouting, harass
Ultra-micro = splitting scvs, move-shot, individually aiming each unit in an army
I am very glad ultra-micro is gone and this post confirmed it basically.
Being able to split scvs should NOT have an impact on your macro otherwise people will gain advantages just because they are a better mouse clicker. If I wanted to play a mouse clicking game, there are tons of flash games all over the internet, sc2 is a real time strategy game. In war, a soldier will tell an officer to shoot a target, but not HOW to shoot the target. Removing ultra-micro makes sense to me.
Do you seriously think move-shot and focus firing shouldn't exist? Rofl.
Splitting is one thing, but simple, fundamental micro like that?
Oh man.
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On June 03 2010 06:30 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:23 Zamkis wrote:
So basically, we have people claiming that reducing the rewards of superior mechanics is fine and anyone thinking otherwise is an elitist.. on a forum dedicated to a game that is insanely mechanic dependent. Every minute should reward skill, mechanics and pratice. Of course there are gaps where players can only spam, but let's not try to include even more gaps. I think the point is that sc2 is less about mechanics than scbw. It means players will be able to focus more on strategic play rather than mechanics which is great for everyone, even those that have perfect mechanics. It means that the forums will talk more about strategies to deal with certain scenarios than how to deal with muta micro harass. It means units are not overpowered if intensely microed which means players can focus on the overall game than perfecting a single maneuver. In general it means better, more strategic games, more playability for less perfect players, and more competition in the pro leagues. There might not be any magical play with mutas anymore, but there are units to replace with abilities that are easier to master.
What made SC1 great was not just the overall strategy, but the ability to actually execute the actions that are required for it. For example, in TvZ, a four-rax Ayumi build hard-counters a three-hatch build (that isn't lings), but if you do a couple micro mistakes when moving out then the Terran is done, at the very least, the timing push is going to fail. Why is having really good mutalisk micro a must in a match-up? Obviously having good mutalisk control allows a player to do more in a matchup in terms of harrassing and/or selecting a strategy to perform.
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On June 03 2010 06:41 Buddhist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 06:17 darmousseh wrote:
wow. I'm so glad the results turned out like that. There's macro, theres micro, and then theres ultra micro.
Macro = buildings, # of workers produced, units produced, expansions
Micro = controlling unit commands, positioning, scouting, harass
Ultra-micro = splitting scvs, move-shot, individually aiming each unit in an army
I am very glad ultra-micro is gone and this post confirmed it basically.
Being able to split scvs should NOT have an impact on your macro otherwise people will gain advantages just because they are a better mouse clicker. If I wanted to play a mouse clicking game, there are tons of flash games all over the internet, sc2 is a real time strategy game. In war, a soldier will tell an officer to shoot a target, but not HOW to shoot the target. Removing ultra-micro makes sense to me. Do you seriously think move-shot and focus firing shouldn't exist? Rofl. Splitting is one thing, but simple, fundamental micro like that? Oh man.
Focus fire is an example of normal micro which requires some reaction time and mouse clicking is fine. Inidividually telling each unit in a 25 unit army to attack a specific target which requires like 1000 apm is ultra micro and given that the AI is pretty good in sc2 compared to scbw is something also that is gone.
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Lets be honest for the majority of players a spilt didn't even matter in BW D+ and below (prob even C and below) who had a better spilt was not going to be a deciding factor in the game, now it matters so little, F1, 6 at a time 3 at a time, it doesn't matter do whatever you want. Personally I do F1 cause I feel like a balla doing so much when the game just started, but i know it doesn't really matter. Look at white ra some of his game he does them two at a time soooo slow hes still one of the best players out there.
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