EPTAs for "incredibly stupid" comments regarding the fact that archon does not exist in vacuum, perhaps you have a different understanding of "counter". I hardly expect to have my archons in isolation, and I hardly expect him to have roaches alone. Part of what makes the archon so good against roaches is that it synergizes so well with my other gateway units. It protects my stalkers from speedlings. Immortals are incredibly vulnerable to even a few speedlings, whereas archons almost prefer to fight a ling/roach mix. It also protects my zealots from banelings. It can soak damage and deal damage. And it sometimes deters him from switching to mutalisk, opting to stick with more ground. Since I already have templar tech, I'm well prepared to take hydras. So when I say it's the "hardest counter in the game" I mean if he goes roach when I go archons, the game is not going to go well for him. I don't have that confidence, in say immortals. Because he insta produces a few lings or hydras and suddenly my immortals can't kill those roaches anymore.
The Archon - Page 10
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
As for "incredibly stupid" comments regarding the fact that archon does not exist in vacuum, perhaps you have a different understanding of "counter". I hardly expect to have my archons in isolation, and I hardly expect him to have roaches alone. Part of what makes the archon so good against roaches is that it synergizes so well with my other gateway units. It protects my stalkers from speedlings. Immortals are incredibly vulnerable to even a few speedlings, whereas archons almost prefer to fight a ling/roach mix. It also protects my zealots from banelings. It can soak damage and deal damage. And it sometimes deters him from switching to mutalisk, opting to stick with more ground. Since I already have templar tech, I'm well prepared to take hydras. So when I say it's the "hardest counter in the game" I mean if he goes roach when I go archons, the game is not going to go well for him. I don't have that confidence, in say immortals. Because he insta produces a few lings or hydras and suddenly my immortals can't kill those roaches anymore. | ||
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fatduck
United States148 Posts
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Therealdevil
Netherlands1021 Posts
In my opinion the unit is underrated atm, remember that an archon costs as much as 4 roaches, and an archon takes 4 roaches apart. Even more in greater numbers. And before you morph them they can use storm! Its a very viable unit, just not propperly used yet. they also have a bit of a flimsy feeling like ultralisks do when they're in your army, they always seem to have trouble getting in the front. They really do need to put in some "fat units get priority" kind of trigger, would make tank type units so much better. Including the ultralisk! I'm gonna trie some feedback/archon without storm style, just today, might post my findings here after!  | ||
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Rea
Germany88 Posts
On June 02 2010 05:46 oxxo wrote: Same way tanks were 'bad' in the beginning, but are now 'OP'... when all that's changed is 10 hp (and slight splash change). ... and 50 nerfs to other units during beta | ||
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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Therealdevil
Netherlands1021 Posts
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Silu
Finland165 Posts
Several people already commented on how it takes 4 EMPs a month ago, and the original discussion on this was about going mass Archons. 4 Emps removes the shield of 1 solo archon, or 6 clumped up archons. I find this argument absolutely hilarious. So 4 EMPs practically kill an Archon. Whining about that is like saying that "4 storms remove ALL the hp of MANY UNITS!!! So obviously any unit that practically dies to 4 storms is useless! Right?!" Except at the point where Archons roam the battlefield, both the cost and opportunity cost of HTs is smaller than Ghosts, so maybe make that 5 or 6 storms. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
I was quite satisfied by it as a unit made of empty templars. Now after having tested some confrontation in the tester with equal food (and around same ressources, it is hard to match archon gaz wise if you make 3 or 4) situations and mix armies. I am very confident that this unit will be used more. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
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Mios
United States686 Posts
if they were way faster and/or had longer range and/or counted as massive they would actually do some damage before dying. maybe having a ton of chargelots tanking the initial damage would be a decent combo for archons, which is why u see ht zealot combos used effectively, archons need zealots. | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On July 18 2010 17:12 fatduck wrote: Has anyone actually tried to use large quantities of archons in SC2? The combination of shitty range, shitty splash, and horrible unit AI means your archons are barely ever even going to be attacking, so unit tester dps numbers don't mean much at all. Try it out in a real game and you'll see that they're just too big and short-ranged to be effective, and are constantly trying to maneuver around tiny units like zealots (similar to the ultralisk problem, except ultras actually have decent splash radius). I agree. I was facing a Hydra player who rapidly transitioned to Roaches against my 2-base Zealot Templar. Zealots weren't cutting it anymore, and Storm isn't that great against Roaches (not the way it is vs Hydras) so I morphed a bunch of my spare HTs into Archons. They were utterly pathetic. The splash wasn't even noticeable- I was convinced that they didn't even HAVE splash. They weren't even that good of meatshields, especially since +2 armor does absolutely nothing for them. They're an almost useless unit. The Archon does not hard counter anything, and its high cost, huge size, and upgrade incompatibility makes it completely inefficient for countering everything. Buff range, buff splash. That should at least give it a niche role. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On June 02 2010 07:39 Stropheum wrote: Four emp's for a single unit? That's a lot of energy to be wasting. Don't be stupid, your not emp'ing ONE single archon obviousli, they'd be with an army, or other archon. Now wouldn't you emp 4 times to get 4+ units to 10hp? | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
Anyhow, archons CAN be amazing vs zergs (coming from a zerg player). Obviously useless vs Siege tanks and most terran units, also being extremely vulnerable to emp. But thats clear from the beginning isnt it?? | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On June 02 2010 05:47 Denarius Jay wrote: Expensive, gets eaten alive to EMP, bad unit pathing, did I mention expensive? Think of the Archon as the Zergs ultralisk, look great on paper or in small skirmishes, but generally just terrible all around... Actually the Archon is quite resistant to EMP. EMP damage is capped at 100, which is enough for the majority of Protoss units. But the Archon obviously not so. Typically Terrans will EMP enough to cover every or most Protoss units. But now you hit the Archon, surrounding units are drained fully... Do you spend 75 energy to do 100 damage to a single unit now when you could hit another cluster? | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On July 18 2010 18:41 me_viet wrote: Don't be stupid, your not emp'ing ONE single archon obviousli, they'd be with an army, or other archon. Now wouldn't you emp 4 times to get 4+ units to 10hp? Then spread out your archons? Now extra EMPs are just hitting one unit. Wow that was tough stuff. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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