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On June 09 2010 06:14 GreatFall wrote: I would enjoy chatrooms; however, I'm not a big fan of cross realm play. I know that cross realm play will make it easier to conduct tourneys. I just don't want what happened with Brood War B.net, where almost ALL of the games for U.S. West were Korean games. First of all I couldn't even read what the games were that were posted. Secondly, it seemed like everyone in every non-UMS game was a non english speaker.
It's simple. When I play on U.S. West, I want to play with people who speak English.
First of all, there's an automated ladder. Secondly, Koreans will have a much better latency on their native server so no reason for them to switch to the US one.
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On June 09 2010 07:01 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 06:14 GreatFall wrote: I would enjoy chatrooms; however, I'm not a big fan of cross realm play. I know that cross realm play will make it easier to conduct tourneys. I just don't want what happened with Brood War B.net, where almost ALL of the games for U.S. West were Korean games. First of all I couldn't even read what the games were that were posted. Secondly, it seemed like everyone in every non-UMS game was a non english speaker.
It's simple. When I play on U.S. West, I want to play with people who speak English. First of all, there's an automated ladder. Secondly, Koreans will have a much better latency on their native server so no reason for them to switch to the US one.
Have you even seen U.S. West's B.net server? Try finding a single non UMS game that isn't korean. In fact they play on our servers because they do indeed have less latency because the asian servers are so full.
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As of now, the game displays creepy messages. After a mid-May beta patch, the client proudly announced that “Play time has been added to your account! Game on!” So read the fine print: Monthly play is a Russian thing. Except for that part where the capability is clearly in every version of the game. No LAN? No chat channels? Now, “Starcraft II is going to be pay to play!!1″
This might go well for us .. russians are great with cracking stuff, they might just crack LAN! :D
dont lose hope .. there is going to be ICCUP 2.0
+ Show Spoiler +do correct me if im wrong though ..
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Starcraft Legacy has just released an article on Battle.net. Its huge, check it out.
Introduction Rarely, in a world constantly consumed by change, does something merely "good" manage to transcend the life expectancy of its parts and become something great. The existence of three perfectly balanced races, an accessible, yet difficult to master, gameplay experience, a strong hardcore community, a thriving e-sports presence, and a host of other factors have led to the creation of a legend among video games. StarCraft is considered by many to be the pinnacle of RTS gaming perfection. By other, less hardcore fans, who played it if even for a short while, it is remembered fondly; yet everyone agrees that its success and vitality was an unintended fluke. Somehow, over the course of a decade, an abundantly flawed game found the correct mix of elements (not all of which were Blizzard's creations) and evolved into a masterpiece. Now, twelve years after StarCraft's intial release, its sequel is about to be unleashed. There are immense expectations. Most popular games have a hardcore fan base, and StarCraft fans take this dedication to a whole new level. Even before the announcement of StarCraft II, StarCraft fans devoted huge portions of their lives to this game. Understandably, we have a stake in the depth, development, and quality of the sequel. However, StarCraft II will be released under a radically different set of circumstances than its predecessor. In 1998, StarCraft was expected to be a respectable game thanks to Blizzard's previous track record. There was a decent amount of buzz, and even a few fan communities were established pre-release. But now StarCraft has a rabid fan following. Half of us have one foot in the nostalgia and glory of Brood War and the other in embracing the potential of the long sought-after sequel. A large majority of people are satisfied with StarCraft II's gameplay; it's enjoyable and provides an excellent spectator experience. We understand that it will likely take years for the game to be completely balanced and for the metagame to settle down. That isn't an issue, for we know that Blizzard has a long history of supporting their games reliably long after release. We have every confidence that eventually the gameplay of StarCraft II will be equal to or surpass that of the original. What the community takes issue with is the overall experience: Battle.net 2.0. And herein lies the crux of the success or failure of StarCraft II as a community driven experience and viable e-sport. Blizzard has explained that their vision for Battle.net 2.0 centers around an "Always Connected Experience": that is to say that Battle.net is an integral and inseparable part of the entire product. While Brood War's global success as an e-sport was a fortunate accident, StarCraft II is being designed from the ground-up to be an e-sports superstar. With that ambitious of a goal, Blizzard has their proverbial hands full. As the beta and subsequent community dissatisfaction have demonstrated, that goal is still unrealized, and Blizzard's greatest failure may be their unwillingness to communicate with the community that has a wealth of experience and knowledge. While we cannot boast to have produced some of the most successful games of all time, we have been more plugged into StarCraft's uncanny rise than the creators. While Blizzard went on to create other blockbuster games in other worlds, we have continued to live and breathe StarCraft. For our commitment we claim some small measure of understanding. We as a community have grown and evolved along with StarCraft. While we would likely all agree, and rightly so, that Blizzard is the creator, we are the consumers. Our voice needs to be heard. Some will say that our hardcore communities will be a relative minority come release. While this may be true, our experiences granted by our tenure can still provide valuable insight; the thousands of us that have been fans for more than a decade have stayed for a reason. ![[image loading]](http://sclegacy.com/features/sc2beta/b.netconcerns/bnet-thinboxhistory.gif) From Diablo to WarCraft III, Battle.net 1.0 evolved over time The feedback that we can provide in a logical and constructive manner may not fit with Blizzard's vision or plan (that's fine), but it at least needs to be heard and addressed. The uncomfortable communication between the development team and the community can be explained as a groupthink-like phenomenon. Groupthink is thought within a cohesive, isolated group whose members try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. Blizzard Entertainment's communication of concepts is rooted firmly in marketing. Consequently, self-censorship of ideas that detract from the group's decisions occurs publicly. The issue regarding feedback is that the community views Blizzard through this narrow lens; as a result, both Blizzard and the community appear to suffer from this illogical thought process. The Battle.net development team appears to be isolated while the community is heavily restricted in its ability to provide feedback. To some degree it is inevitable, for both are relatively small groups with exclusive interests. Within the community, the restricted discussion is most readily apparent across the various fan sites and community boards. We've all observed the flavor of the week posts, where Poster A finds an imbalanced, missing, or incomplete feature and the entire community works itself up into a frenzy; Posters B through Z agree, or "/sign", and we all sit around congratulating ourselves on our amazing deductive abilities while subsequently faulting Blizzard for their lack of intelligence. Rarely, does anything constructive result from this process and all too often does it repeat itself. While nuggets of important information can likely be found in these posts, the manner in which they are created and the cycle they perpetuate does not help the community and does not help the development of StarCraft II. As a community, we need to be more respectful of Blizzard and each other. We need to demand more from each other. We have the knowledge and the ability to be helpful toward impacting the success of our beloved game positively. But this outcome entails focusing on explanations and solutions. Feedback on many of the issues important to us needs to be more than pointing out the flaws. Being able to convey our thoughts maturely and constructively demonstrates to Blizzard that, aside for our extensive experience, there are other reasons why we deserve to be taken seriously. Remember, our demographic isn't the only target-audience. For the vast majority of us, a sale is already assured. There's a sense of misplaced entitlement in the community. While we have a vested interest in the game and experience, we aren't "owed" anything. We have to do our best to stay relevant for the journey; it is the only way to positively affect real change. While the community's issue stems from our limited experience with an unfinished product coupled with our desire to be both relevant and have a game worthy of our treasured history, Blizzard's issue with groupthink is slightly different and bit more complicated. Blizzard's problem is twofold. Firstly, they have tasked themselves with following up a universally adored game and reinventing the entire online gaming experience in the process. This has led to expectations that cannot be met. Without adequate communication to the fan base, the result is disappointment in various shades. To be fair, during the development of StarCraft II Blizzard has been the most open and transparent that they have ever been regarding one of their games. We have been granted Q&A Batches, Battle Reports, and fan site press events. These were incredible, and they helped energize the base. However, Battle.net - the platform upon which the entire system had to run - was kept secret. Obviously, there are many reasons why Blizzard chose to do this. The issue is that Blizzard has promised to revolutionize every aspect of the online RTS experience and failed to account for their limited experiences in many of the areas required for a polished online experience. Their product remains unfinished and flawed. Without engaging the community, with all of our various talents and experiences, in an open dialogue they relied exclusively on their in-house tunnel vision. This isn't to say that there isn't great debate and discussion in-house regarding the various aspects of the game or the service, but rather that there is no outside dissent. This is readily apparent when you read or watch any of the various interviews with the game designers, producers, or officers. They seem woefully out of touch with what the community is really interested in. The exclusion of chat channels is just one example. ![[image loading]](http://sclegacy.com/features/sc2beta/b.netconcerns/starcraft-front.jpg) The expectations were set high with StarCraft Time and time again we see a developer or a producer ask us if the feature is something we really want. Either our thunderous outcry is being communicated inadequately or the decision-makers inside Blizzard are too insulated. Blizzard's isolated stance in conjunction with the tightly controlled message exemplifies groupthink, and this brings us to the second issue regarding the phenomenon: Blizzard is perhaps a victim of its own success. In many regards, they looked on a very high-level at what they have produced in the past and used that as their basis to move forward. To some extent they must feel that they know what is best, and it is evident from some of the interviews that they are in fact "telling" us what we want. A certain amount of "we know what you want" is noticeable. Realistically, while Blizzard has its own vision and desires for Battle.net 2.0 they can't possibly tell what we want. Now, granted that they aren't catering Battle.net just to us, but our concerns should probably still be addressed. It's just good business. When people have spent years of their lives working on something very specific, tunnel vision is inevitable. Sometimes that works; look at many of the other products Blizzard has created without outside consultation. However, for many of the things that Blizzard and the community want to accomplish with StarCraft II, an open dialogue is important. This is where Blizzard has missed the proverbial bus. Despite the fact that our feedback could be communicated more effectively, they haven't yet figured out how to best receive and evaluate it. Traditionally, Blizzard Entertainment has developed games quietly. They were characterized as a disengaged, aloof developer, yet they planned, implemented, and supported games reliably. Marketing and public relations has always been a component of Blizzard, but fan sites have largely been excluded from this. Up until the creation of Blizzard's RTS Community Team in the summer of 2007, community sites were largely ignored by the Public Relations department. Each day, more and more people find our sites, and our power to effect the community will continue to grow. In the decade preceding the announcement of the sequel, with the exception of the Sandlot Tournament, we were a dismissed demographic. The PR team judged us to be a superfluous extension of their success. We were never engaged despite our best efforts while general gaming publications and traditional news outlets were granted access to which we had traditionally been shut out of. It is only in recent years that we've been recognized as an important part of the overall target market. ![[image loading]](http://sclegacy.com/features/sc2beta/b.netconcerns/sc2cover.jpg) StarCraft II introduces the next stage: Battle.net 2.0 The interaction between Blizzard and the online community is improving. We now have the fan site summit, and we are invited to press events. Going forward, more communication and interaction can only help bridge the divide. The community's presence, quality, and professionalism is growing exponentially, and our focus on specific subject matter allows us to be outside experts. Each day, more and more people find our sites and our power to effect the community will only continue to grow. As Blizzard realizes that a StarCraft fan's perception about the game is impacted more by what community partners write than the articles found on a traditional generalized gaming website, hopefully the communication dynamic will realign to be more productive. With all of that being said, this article is intended to help inform both Blizzard and the community regarding Battle.net 2.0. The criticisms enumerated below need to be aired constructively; however, we have not simply pointed out perceived problems. We have also included our humble suggestions as to how to mitigate the issues presented. While we understand that there are those within the community and within Blizzard that will disagree with our take, hopefully this editorial will help to construct a better understanding between Blizzard and the community. Twelve years has been a long time for everyone, and we should all start communicating now to make the next twelve even better.
Full Article: http://sclegacy.com/articles/730-battlenet-20-concerns
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When do Blizzard plan to properly address the concerns?
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SCLegacy Article Says: While we would likely all agree, and rightly so, that Blizzard is the creator, we are the consumers. Our voice needs to be heard. Some will say that our hardcore communities will be a relative minority come release. While this may be true, our experiences granted by our tenure can still provide valuable insight; the thousands of us that have been fans for more than a decade have stayed for a reason.
As a community, we need to be more respectful of Blizzard and each other. We need to demand more from each other. We have the knowledge and the ability to be helpful toward impacting the success of our beloved game positively. But this outcome entails focusing on explanations and solutions. Feedback on many of the issues important to us needs to be more than pointing out the flaws. Being able to convey our thoughts maturely and constructively demonstrates to Blizzard that, aside for our extensive experience, there are other reasons why we deserve to be taken seriously. Remember, our demographic isn't the only target-audience. For the vast majority of us, a sale is already assured. There's a sense of misplaced entitlement in the community. While we have a vested interest in the game and experience, we aren't "owed" anything. We have to do our best to stay relevant for the journey; it is the only way to positively affect real change. While the community's issue stems from our limited experience with an unfinished product coupled with our desire to be both relevant and have a game worthy of our treasured history, Blizzard's issue with groupthink is slightly different and bit more complicated.
Wonderfully stated. Focus on the issues, not on Blizzard. Focus on SC2, not Activision. Focus on analyzing what we want and how we can have it, not focusing on what we don't have and why that's a crime.
Could not be more perfectly stated that this is how you affect change. You earn it through constructive dialog that focuses on the problems at hand and not on Blizzard.
Time and time again we see a developer or a producer ask us if the feature is something we really want. Either our thunderous outcry is being communicated inadequately or the decision-makers inside Blizzard are too insulated. Blizzard's isolated stance in conjunction with the tightly controlled message exemplifies groupthink, and this brings us to the second issue regarding the phenomenon: Blizzard is perhaps a victim of its own success. In many regards, they looked on a very high-level at what they have produced in the past and used that as their basis to move forward. To some extent they must feel that they know what is best, and it is evident from some of the interviews that they are in fact "telling" us what we want. A certain amount of "we know what you want" is noticeable. Realistically, while Blizzard has its own vision and desires for Battle.net 2.0 they can't possibly tell what we want. Now, granted that they aren't catering Battle.net just to us, but our concerns should probably still be addressed. It's just good business.
Here's where they immediately contradict themselves. The first thing they say after "focus on the solutions" is "here's what we guess is really happening at Blizzard that's making them not listen." This is exactly what the problem is. Who cares if there are no chat-channels because Blizzard is tunnel-visioned, because they're evil, or because they forgot, or whatever.
For something like chat-channels there are logistical hurdles, technological hurdles, and the importance of the feature to the community. It's important for Blizzard to communicate the first two, and for us to communicate the last. Together Blizzard and the community need to forge new priorities and understandings together by taking into account the totality of the three.
Just like we don't want Blizzard sitting in their ivory tower proclaiming "Gamers are silly, they don't know what they want, their stuck in nostalgia. That's the way gamers are, they think they want something, but they don't. They just won't brace for the future." We shouldn't be saying about Blizzard "They just don't understand. Clearly they don't care about pro gaming. They've succumb to group-think, and nothing we say is getting to them. They're out of touch and simply greedy. Everything they do is for money."
If we spend 75% of our time trying to guess the motives of the other party, then we've wasted 75% of our time that could have been spent on making solutions. If you've already said everything you have to say about why we need the missing features or what the limitations of implementing them are or how to overcome those limitations, then stop talking. You hurt the progress of the rest of us if you then continue on to start making assumption about Blizzard or to somehow search for a way to shame a gaming company into giving you what you want.
I don't care how good your flaming skills are. You cannot shame this company into doing anything you want. Nor will you get what you want by bullying down people that disagree with you with additional flames and sarcasm.
Good article by SCLegacy. Hopefully in the future they can walk the talk a little better, but even though they strayed from their goal, they still stayed respectful the whole time. That's something people could learn.
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To Blizzard's credit, Patch 15 brought a universally applauded and necessary change to the ranking system: the Diamond League could no longer be accessed through placement matches alone. Players must instead fight for their promotion to the Diamond League
wasnt this the blue posted as a "bug" that would be fixed?
Nor will you get what you want by bullying down people that disagree with you with additional flames and sarcasm.
so when you make a well thought out post intent on reaching blizzard and its trolled by people who think this or that feature will be there or screaming ITS BETA! blizzard lovers you simply dont respond to their false intentions, trolling 'i r blizz defendar" epeen cries? ;O this is an outrage ;O
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On June 09 2010 22:27 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +To Blizzard's credit, Patch 15 brought a universally applauded and necessary change to the ranking system: the Diamond League could no longer be accessed through placement matches alone. Players must instead fight for their promotion to the Diamond League wasnt this the blue posted as a "bug" that would be fixed? Show nested quote +Nor will you get what you want by bullying down people that disagree with you with additional flames and sarcasm. so when you make a well thought out post intent on reaching blizzard and its trolled by people who think this or that feature will be there or screaming ITS BETA! blizzard lovers you simply dont respond to their false intentions, trolling 'i r blizz defendar" epeen cries? ;O this is an outrage ;O
Those people are equally ridiculous. They get called out every time by numerous people. And many get banned, too. Especially if they start personally attacking posters. There are some really eloquent people on these threads, and an equally large number of eloquent people that refuse to get involved because they're disgusted by the tone of the threads and the discourse.
Personally, I'd love to agree with a bunch of people on this topic if they could just moderate their rhetoric. I agree with their basic premise but almost none of their supporting "facts". I feel like a lot of people are the same way. If we can tone down the heat a little bit, there's a ton of common ground to gain a shared understanding.
People are sometimes a little to hectic to "win now", so they take a bit of a slash and burn approach to drowning out voices til only their opinion is left standing. There's plenty of time/room for consensus building between ourselves and between Blizzard and us.
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On June 09 2010 22:27 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +To Blizzard's credit, Patch 15 brought a universally applauded and necessary change to the ranking system: the Diamond League could no longer be accessed through placement matches alone. Players must instead fight for their promotion to the Diamond League wasnt this the blue posted as a "bug" that would be fixed? Show nested quote +Nor will you get what you want by bullying down people that disagree with you with additional flames and sarcasm. so when you make a well thought out post intent on reaching blizzard and its trolled by people who think this or that feature will be there or screaming ITS BETA! blizzard lovers you simply dont respond to their false intentions, trolling 'i r blizz defendar" epeen cries? ;O this is an outrage ;O Regarding the first point, it was posted as a bug that people couldn't get promoted from platinum to diamond league, and that was promptly resolved. A different blue post confirmed that it is intended now to not be able to get into the Diamond league directly by placement matches. In fact, they even have other blue posts requesting community feedback if this new method increases the competition at the diamond level, further confirming it.
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On June 09 2010 22:02 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +SCLegacy Article Says: While we would likely all agree, and rightly so, that Blizzard is the creator, we are the consumers. Our voice needs to be heard. Some will say that our hardcore communities will be a relative minority come release. While this may be true, our experiences granted by our tenure can still provide valuable insight; the thousands of us that have been fans for more than a decade have stayed for a reason.
As a community, we need to be more respectful of Blizzard and each other. We need to demand more from each other. We have the knowledge and the ability to be helpful toward impacting the success of our beloved game positively. But this outcome entails focusing on explanations and solutions. Feedback on many of the issues important to us needs to be more than pointing out the flaws. Being able to convey our thoughts maturely and constructively demonstrates to Blizzard that, aside for our extensive experience, there are other reasons why we deserve to be taken seriously. Remember, our demographic isn't the only target-audience. For the vast majority of us, a sale is already assured. There's a sense of misplaced entitlement in the community. While we have a vested interest in the game and experience, we aren't "owed" anything. We have to do our best to stay relevant for the journey; it is the only way to positively affect real change. While the community's issue stems from our limited experience with an unfinished product coupled with our desire to be both relevant and have a game worthy of our treasured history, Blizzard's issue with groupthink is slightly different and bit more complicated.
Wonderfully stated. Focus on the issues, not on Blizzard. Focus on SC2, not Activision. Focus on analyzing what we want and how we can have it, not focusing on what we don't have and why that's a crime. Could not be more perfectly stated that this is how you affect change. You earn it through constructive dialog that focuses on the problems at hand and not on Blizzard. Show nested quote +Time and time again we see a developer or a producer ask us if the feature is something we really want. Either our thunderous outcry is being communicated inadequately or the decision-makers inside Blizzard are too insulated. Blizzard's isolated stance in conjunction with the tightly controlled message exemplifies groupthink, and this brings us to the second issue regarding the phenomenon: Blizzard is perhaps a victim of its own success. In many regards, they looked on a very high-level at what they have produced in the past and used that as their basis to move forward. To some extent they must feel that they know what is best, and it is evident from some of the interviews that they are in fact "telling" us what we want. A certain amount of "we know what you want" is noticeable. Realistically, while Blizzard has its own vision and desires for Battle.net 2.0 they can't possibly tell what we want. Now, granted that they aren't catering Battle.net just to us, but our concerns should probably still be addressed. It's just good business. Here's where they immediately contradict themselves. The first thing they say after "focus on the solutions" is "here's what we guess is really happening at Blizzard that's making them not listen." This is exactly what the problem is. Who cares if there are no chat-channels because Blizzard is tunnel-visioned, because they're evil, or because they forgot, or whatever. For something like chat-channels there are logistical hurdles, technological hurdles, and the importance of the feature to the community. It's important for Blizzard to communicate the first two, and for us to communicate the last. Together Blizzard and the community need to forge new priorities and understandings together by taking into account the totality of the three. Just like we don't want Blizzard sitting in their ivory tower proclaiming "Gamers are silly, they don't know what they want, their stuck in nostalgia. That's the way gamers are, they think they want something, but they don't. They just won't brace for the future." We shouldn't be saying about Blizzard "They just don't understand. Clearly they don't care about pro gaming. They've succumb to group-think, and nothing we say is getting to them. They're out of touch and simply greedy. Everything they do is for money." If we spend 75% of our time trying to guess the motives of the other party, then we've wasted 75% of our time that could have been spent on making solutions. If you've already said everything you have to say about why we need the missing features or what the limitations of implementing them are or how to overcome those limitations, then stop talking. You hurt the progress of the rest of us if you then continue on to start making assumption about Blizzard or to somehow search for a way to shame a gaming company into giving you what you want. I don't care how good your flaming skills are. You cannot shame this company into doing anything you want. Nor will you get what you want by bullying down people that disagree with you with additional flames and sarcasm. Good article by SCLegacy. Hopefully in the future they can walk the talk a little better, but even though they strayed from their goal, they still stayed respectful the whole time. That's something people could learn.
I partially disagree. While I certainly think respectful and calm dialogue is important the recent facts have shown that community outrage has been about the only thing to really get Blizzards attention. If youll look in the OP you will see that their have been more Blue posts on this subject than at any point in the past.
There have been years of people calmly and constructively giving feedback to Blizzard about the problems of BNET 2.0. None of this was new. Whats new is the uproar and that appears to have finally stirred something at Blizzard.
What that thing is we will see.
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On June 09 2010 07:15 GreatFall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 07:01 maybenexttime wrote:On June 09 2010 06:14 GreatFall wrote: I would enjoy chatrooms; however, I'm not a big fan of cross realm play. I know that cross realm play will make it easier to conduct tourneys. I just don't want what happened with Brood War B.net, where almost ALL of the games for U.S. West were Korean games. First of all I couldn't even read what the games were that were posted. Secondly, it seemed like everyone in every non-UMS game was a non english speaker.
It's simple. When I play on U.S. West, I want to play with people who speak English. First of all, there's an automated ladder. Secondly, Koreans will have a much better latency on their native server so no reason for them to switch to the US one. Have you even seen U.S. West's B.net server? Try finding a single non UMS game that isn't korean. In fact they play on our servers because they do indeed have less latency because the asian servers are so full.
What is your point? O_o
You just stated the reason why that's the case for BW and why it won't affect SC2 since they fixed the latency for Koreans...
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On June 09 2010 22:02 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +Time and time again we see a developer or a producer ask us if the feature is something we really want. Either our thunderous outcry is being communicated inadequately or the decision-makers inside Blizzard are too insulated. Blizzard's isolated stance in conjunction with the tightly controlled message exemplifies groupthink, and this brings us to the second issue regarding the phenomenon: Blizzard is perhaps a victim of its own success. In many regards, they looked on a very high-level at what they have produced in the past and used that as their basis to move forward. To some extent they must feel that they know what is best, and it is evident from some of the interviews that they are in fact "telling" us what we want. A certain amount of "we know what you want" is noticeable. Realistically, while Blizzard has its own vision and desires for Battle.net 2.0 they can't possibly tell what we want. Now, granted that they aren't catering Battle.net just to us, but our concerns should probably still be addressed. It's just good business. Here's where they immediately contradict themselves. The first thing they say after "focus on the solutions" is "here's what we guess is really happening at Blizzard that's making them not listen." This is exactly what the problem is. Who cares if there are no chat-channels because Blizzard is tunnel-visioned, because they're evil, or because they forgot, or whatever. [...] Good article by SCLegacy. Hopefully in the future they can walk the talk a little better, but even though they strayed from their goal, they still stayed respectful the whole time. That's something people could learn. While it's good to focus on the solutions to issues, it's also vitally important to identify the obstacles that may have contributed to difficulties in obtaining them in the first place.
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On June 10 2010 02:16 Gifted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 22:02 Takkara wrote:Time and time again we see a developer or a producer ask us if the feature is something we really want. Either our thunderous outcry is being communicated inadequately or the decision-makers inside Blizzard are too insulated. Blizzard's isolated stance in conjunction with the tightly controlled message exemplifies groupthink, and this brings us to the second issue regarding the phenomenon: Blizzard is perhaps a victim of its own success. In many regards, they looked on a very high-level at what they have produced in the past and used that as their basis to move forward. To some extent they must feel that they know what is best, and it is evident from some of the interviews that they are in fact "telling" us what we want. A certain amount of "we know what you want" is noticeable. Realistically, while Blizzard has its own vision and desires for Battle.net 2.0 they can't possibly tell what we want. Now, granted that they aren't catering Battle.net just to us, but our concerns should probably still be addressed. It's just good business. Here's where they immediately contradict themselves. The first thing they say after "focus on the solutions" is "here's what we guess is really happening at Blizzard that's making them not listen." This is exactly what the problem is. Who cares if there are no chat-channels because Blizzard is tunnel-visioned, because they're evil, or because they forgot, or whatever. [...] Good article by SCLegacy. Hopefully in the future they can walk the talk a little better, but even though they strayed from their goal, they still stayed respectful the whole time. That's something people could learn. While it's good to focus on the solutions to issues, it's also vitally important to identify the obstacles that may have contributed to difficulties in obtaining them in the first place.
Their mindset that may or may not have contributed to the issue is irrelevant. We just don't know. If there's an interview where they state what mindset led to the design decision, then that's relevant. But you're putting forth a guess. Even though it's a civilly stated guess, it's no different than the people saying "it's just a money grab." We can guess what they're thinking til we're blue in the face, but that's not changing the facts of the situation.
We know what design decisions they've made thus far. We can look into that framework and figure out why they've said no chat rooms, xregion, etc. We can, in light of that, figure out if there are functional compromises that give us both a chance to get what we want without significant work.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if they're tunnel-visioned, greedy, aloof, or what-have-you. They are what they are, and they've done what they've done. A greedy company can still give us the same chat rooms that an empathetic one can. An aloof company can still give us the same chat rooms that a plugged in company can.
But any of those companies that are starting with BNet 2.0 as it is currently architected are dealing with the same problems, regardless of mindset. To get the things we want, it has to make sense in the architecture or be worth the time and money of rearchitecting the platform.
Anyone who has worked in software development knows that many times it's not that the developers are aloof or ignorant of the ways to make their software better, but oftentimes there is not enough time or money to make the necessary changes especially in light of more schedule-pressing, higher-priority items.
So, we can impress how important to the growth of the community to have these features. We've done that. We can try to understand their limitations and suggest ways around them or ways to adjust what we want. We're not so good here.
But just because we think we may know what they thought when they decided to make BNet 2.0 doesn't change what BNet 2.0 is.
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I don't understand where all this outrage is coming from. The last time blizzard released a decent title was about 9 years ago. I have zero faith in present day blizzard (or activision, whatever.)
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On June 10 2010 02:31 hifriend wrote:I don't understand where all this outrage is coming from. The last time blizzard released a decent title was about 9 years ago. I have zero faith in present day blizzard (or activision, whatever.) 
I'd love to hear your opinion on what a decent title is. Just wait a sec, grabbing some popcorn.
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On June 10 2010 02:34 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 02:31 hifriend wrote:I don't understand where all this outrage is coming from. The last time blizzard released a decent title was about 9 years ago. I have zero faith in present day blizzard (or activision, whatever.)  I'd love to hear your opinion on what a decent title is. Just wait a sec, grabbing some popcorn. Well, sc:bw, diablo 2, warcraft 1&2 were all excellent games. Modern rts as a genre is a little bit fucked in my opinion. I don't really feel like jumping on the bandwagon just because some mediocre modern 3d rts has the starcraft brand slapped on it, but to each his own. Blizzard as a company doesn't resemble it's past self one bit hence my uncertainty of the origin of all these big expectations. I mean blizzard is completely different, they just happen to have the rights for the starcraft brand and that's all there is to it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 09 2010 03:25 Goshawk. wrote: His blog is just repeating what's been said 1000 times already, but in a really angry tone. I dunno, personally I thought it was good. Maybe it's because I still associate "Ghetto-Overlord" with his old troll persona, but if this article is any indication, he's changed a lot.
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United States22883 Posts
http://sclegacy.com/articles/730-battlenet-20-concerns#Map Making/Editor Issues - scroll up because the Interface link doesn't work.
I think the Custom Game/Interface section in that SCLegacy article is the most important part, and I wish it got more attention. The part of Bnet 2.0 that works fairly well is the auto-match making. The ELO can always be adjusted later, but at least it gets us games quickly. The problem is that that doesn't really need an interface. What does need a good interface are Custom games, and right now the system is terrible. The screenshotted Blizzcon 2009 interface would be so much better than what we have today.
I posted this in the other thread that got closed.
Show nested quote +On June 10 2010 02:18 Zanez.smarty wrote: All they need at SC2 release is a FUNCTIONAL program... everything that goes beyond allowing you to find games with other players is not necessary for Battle.net to be functional. There are a ton of features in Battle.net2.0 that already go beyond functionality, and it is only just the beginning. I think you're overlooking something very important, as are the people clamoring for chat channels, etc. Regardless of whether those are properly implemented, the system for finding games is just not very good. If you want to ladder, fine. It's easy enough to use auto-match making because you aren't really doing anything, and Blizzard can always make the ELO function better. But what if you're playing custom games or want to do practice games with observers? Even if chat channels were implemented, the system sucks for making and finding games. I understand Blizzard's trepidation with game names, but this is simply not the right way to do it. Finding maps is a ridiculous process of clicking 'Show More', and the lobby system is a pain in the ass to use, even if they change the way Host works. Custom games have sub-rules that can't be used anymore like they were in WC3 and BW, because there is no identifier between games beside the map. Choosing the map you want to play on takes way too long because of the new system, and once you're in the lobby you're stuck with it. That was true in BW and WC3 too, but at least there was a much better system in place for finding the map, and those games were 10 and 7 years old; something should've been improved in that time. Passwording should be a no brainer. And the party system is just kind of annoying. I'd like to be in a party, and still be able to do stuff on my own like you can in WoW. Show nested quote +Also, for those who didn't know... Steam does not support LAN or Public Chat Channels either... even many many years after release. It supports group chat, which Blizzard has openly stated that it plans to support. Competitive CS formed around IRC. While IRC has been a part of the SC community, channels were where that happened. There's no reason to downgrade, and the direction Valve took is irrelevant because in game chatting and friending works completely differently. And I haven't even touched on how annoying the friend system is. TLDR: Chat channels, x-realm, and LAN support are secondary features that Bnet should probably have, but can also be added later. The primary function of Bnet, finding and joining games, is still bad, or at least a clear downgrade from the way it worked in WC3. That's not an issue of "it's beta and they can update it later" because an update isn't fix it. A rehaul is what's needed.
And I don't mean a rehaul of everything, just anything involving the Create/Join game buttons.
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