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On May 28 2010 23:16 Vykenos wrote:Show nested quote +
I debunked nearly every single stupid claim I quoted. How am I insulting anyone? I pointed out why he/they are making fools our of themselves... On the other hand, you are insulting me directly.
Those comapnies ARE KeSPA. What's so hard to understand? KeSPA negotiated on THEIR BEHALF. Got that? They will not agree to those ridiculous terms. So either Blizzard change their mind or those companies will not "funnel money into esports"...
So once KeSPA is defunct those corporations arent going to go where the market goes? They are just going to pout in the corner cuz they didnt get there deal? Sure...
These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future.
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On May 29 2010 01:11 drewbie.root wrote: I don't know what would be best for SC2 right now, if every single korean BW pro moved over to SC2, then I think they would dominated it just like they did BW, and I for one don't really want to see that happen.
I don't see the downside to this. Most of the Korean BW Professional leagues are self contained, which really has no bearing on the rest of the world. Simultaneously, balance issues would be flushed out significantly quicker as Pro gamers tend to put more stress on game theory and in-game mechanics, any terrible imbalance is quickly rooted out by sheer hours played.
If your true goal is to have other countries stand a chance in the world community of SC2 progaming, then you may as well buy a house somewhere, get some sponsors and start getting people to practice for 20 hours a day, because it's not genetics that makes Koreans better at pro gaming, it's the culture.
Or is it the genes? Plot thickens...
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Well looks like Jaedong and Flash, as well as MANY progamers, will soon be out of a job.
Aw well. Gotta move on with the change. That's what Blizzard said.
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On May 29 2010 02:28 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 23:16 Vykenos wrote:
I debunked nearly every single stupid claim I quoted. How am I insulting anyone? I pointed out why he/they are making fools our of themselves... On the other hand, you are insulting me directly.
Those comapnies ARE KeSPA. What's so hard to understand? KeSPA negotiated on THEIR BEHALF. Got that? They will not agree to those ridiculous terms. So either Blizzard change their mind or those companies will not "funnel money into esports"...
So once KeSPA is defunct those corporations arent going to go where the market goes? They are just going to pout in the corner cuz they didnt get there deal? Sure... These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future.
KeSPA has to make a deal with GOM TV now. Dunno where you are getting dealing with Blizzard from? Should work on your reading comprehension.
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On May 29 2010 02:55 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 02:28 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 28 2010 23:16 Vykenos wrote:
I debunked nearly every single stupid claim I quoted. How am I insulting anyone? I pointed out why he/they are making fools our of themselves... On the other hand, you are insulting me directly.
Those comapnies ARE KeSPA. What's so hard to understand? KeSPA negotiated on THEIR BEHALF. Got that? They will not agree to those ridiculous terms. So either Blizzard change their mind or those companies will not "funnel money into esports"...
So once KeSPA is defunct those corporations arent going to go where the market goes? They are just going to pout in the corner cuz they didnt get there deal? Sure... These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future. KeSPA has to make a deal with GOM TV now. Dunno where you are getting dealing with Blizzard from? Should work on your reading comprehension.
Or KeSPA can disband and the companies will go their separate ways.
KeSPA companies don't need progaming, progaming needs KeSPA.
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I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike.
If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become).
Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting.
On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ?
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On May 29 2010 03:03 ExoCorsair wrote:I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike. If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become). Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting. Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ?
S korea is a little bit bigger than the state of indiana. I don't really see an issue with major latency issues. There have been plenty of tournaments when they power has gone out and that cause delays, etc. Maybe Blizzard should add a power grid in battlenet when they patch in the LAN. &_&
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On May 29 2010 03:03 ExoCorsair wrote:I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike. If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become). Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting. Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ?
I GET IT, I GET IT!!!!!!!
(As Stewie would say) WELL THEN. THE BLIZZARD MUST DIE!!!!
Edit: I have a strange feeling, however, that all this arguing will turn irrelevant when NK turns Seoul to "a sea of fire", as they've stated before, very soon.
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These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future.
What so fucking dumb is you doomsayers who think that because terms couldnt be reached one way it means that terms will never be reached. They didnt agree to Blizzard's terms because they were trying to do what was best for there business. It isnt working (or at least doesnt look like it is right now, who knows what they will come back with) and assuming it goes Blizzards way then yeah, either they back out or they find another way to work with the system as it is going.
Such retards here who look at everything is completely black and white... good or bad and that is it.
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On May 29 2010 03:06 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:03 ExoCorsair wrote:I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike. If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become). Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting. On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ? S korea is a little bit bigger than the state of indiana. I don't really see an issue with major latency issues. There have been plenty of tournaments when they power has gone out and that cause delays, etc. Maybe Blizzard should add a power grid in battlenet when they patch in the LAN. &_&
Power outages are rare events. If there are no Blizzard datacenters near the recording studios, the latency will not go away.
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[QUOTE]On May 29 2010 03:03 buhhy wrote:
[QUOTE]
KeSPA companies don't need progaming, progaming needs KeSPA.[/QUOTE]
Pro-gaming does not need KeSPA. They need sponsors.
While KeSPA does provide sponsors, it doesn't mean that no new ones will come in or current ones will break from the pack and continue sponsorships if KeSPA goes away.
Just like if the NBA, NFL, MLB all dissolved tomorrow, new organizations will come in and take their place. Will there be growing pains? Yes.
If the sport is compelling enough though, it will survive.
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[QUOTE]On May 29 2010 03:25 Adila wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 29 2010 03:03 buhhy wrote:
[QUOTE]
KeSPA companies don't need progaming, progaming needs KeSPA.[/QUOTE]
Pro-gaming does not need KeSPA. They need sponsors.
While KeSPA does provide sponsors, it doesn't mean that no new ones will come in or current ones will break from the pack and continue sponsorships if KeSPA goes away.
Just like if the NBA, NFL, MLB all dissolved tomorrow, new organizations will come in and take their place. Will there be growing pains? Yes.
If the sport is compelling enough though, it will survive.[/QUOTE]
My main concern in this WHOLE MATTER is that no matter who's in control, SC2 will not be a compelling enough game to survive. I give it 2 years max, then suffer the same fate as WC3.
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On May 29 2010 02:55 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 02:28 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 28 2010 23:16 Vykenos wrote:
I debunked nearly every single stupid claim I quoted. How am I insulting anyone? I pointed out why he/they are making fools our of themselves... On the other hand, you are insulting me directly.
Those comapnies ARE KeSPA. What's so hard to understand? KeSPA negotiated on THEIR BEHALF. Got that? They will not agree to those ridiculous terms. So either Blizzard change their mind or those companies will not "funnel money into esports"...
So once KeSPA is defunct those corporations arent going to go where the market goes? They are just going to pout in the corner cuz they didnt get there deal? Sure... These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future. KeSPA has to make a deal with GOM TV now. Dunno where you are getting dealing with Blizzard from? Should work on your reading comprehension.
GOM is Blizzards bitch now, they control everything they do so GOM=Blizzard..
Kespa didnt wanna be their bitch..
Did you see gom tournament.. Everywhere blizzard signs and even players wearing sc2 t-shirt with blizzard signs on sleeves..
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[QUOTE]On May 29 2010 03:25 Adila wrote:
[QUOTE]On May 29 2010 03:03 buhhy wrote:
[QUOTE]
KeSPA companies don't need progaming, progaming needs KeSPA.[/QUOTE]
Pro-gaming does not need KeSPA. They need sponsors.
While KeSPA does provide sponsors, it doesn't mean that no new ones will come in or current ones will break from the pack and continue sponsorships if KeSPA goes away.
Just like if the NBA, NFL, MLB all dissolved tomorrow, new organizations will come in and take their place. Will there be growing pains? Yes.
If the sport is compelling enough though, it will survive.[/QUOTE]
Ugh, WeMade, Woongjin, Hite - how are these not new sponsors? We constantly see new sponsors for OSL and MSL too...
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On May 29 2010 03:14 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:06 Baarn wrote:On May 29 2010 03:03 ExoCorsair wrote:I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike. If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become). Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting. On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ? S korea is a little bit bigger than the state of indiana. I don't really see an issue with major latency issues. There have been plenty of tournaments when they power has gone out and that cause delays, etc. Maybe Blizzard should add a power grid in battlenet when they patch in the LAN. &_& Power outages are rare events. If there are no Blizzard datacenters near the recording studios, the latency will not go away.
You do know that asia battlenet is a server in korea, right?
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On May 29 2010 03:34 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 02:55 Baarn wrote:On May 29 2010 02:28 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 28 2010 23:16 Vykenos wrote:
I debunked nearly every single stupid claim I quoted. How am I insulting anyone? I pointed out why he/they are making fools our of themselves... On the other hand, you are insulting me directly.
Those comapnies ARE KeSPA. What's so hard to understand? KeSPA negotiated on THEIR BEHALF. Got that? They will not agree to those ridiculous terms. So either Blizzard change their mind or those companies will not "funnel money into esports"...
So once KeSPA is defunct those corporations arent going to go where the market goes? They are just going to pout in the corner cuz they didnt get there deal? Sure... These posts are so fucking dumb, are you reading posts in this thread or just making up things in your head. You still don't actually get the situation at all. The corporations aren't out looking for proteams to completely fund, its the other way around. I dunno why you seem to think companies will be mega-eager to start throwing money around when it took so many years for the proteams to even get where they are today. They already disagreed with Blizzard's terms THROUGH KeSPA so why the hell would they agree to them in the future. KeSPA has to make a deal with GOM TV now. Dunno where you are getting dealing with Blizzard from? Should work on your reading comprehension. GOM is Blizzards bitch now, they control everything they do so GOM=Blizzard.. Kespa didnt wanna be their bitch.. Did you see gom tournament.. Everywhere blizzard signs and even players wearing sc2 t-shirt with blizzard signs on sleeves..
You don't come across like you understand how IP law works. I somehow doubt you hold a job either but nevertheless. GOM TV respects Blizzard's rights to their game. KeSPA did not so they are out of the game. Just how it works.
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On May 29 2010 03:38 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:14 buhhy wrote:On May 29 2010 03:06 Baarn wrote:On May 29 2010 03:03 ExoCorsair wrote:I get the feeling that Blizzard doesn't really want to keep the SC scene in Korea the way it is and instead would rather see what "eSports" is in terms of what Westerners are more familiar with - WoW, Counter-Strike. If Blizzard really cared about fostering eSports as I believe they had claimed numerous times, then they really screwed up with Battle.net. There should be, at the very least, all the implementations that made pro gaming in Korea as successful as it is - LAN, map hosting, whatever - so that if their own ideas failed, there would be something to fall back to. I even think that if Blizzard had used Steamworks and incorporated Steam into their game, "Battle.net 2.0" would be a lot better than is today (and also probably what it will become). Also post-bumping this one, because it seems like people don't read the entire thread before posting. On May 27 2010 20:35 Boonbag wrote:
So it all began 10 years ago.
Back then, when a player was winning a tournament or a league in Korea, he had to pay the national tax rate of 27%, and hand over this to the gov.
Problem was that, gaming wasn't a work and gamers were really poor. Also, the culture office of the Korean gov. as it saw pro gaming getting bigger and beeing something new and unique to Korea and closely linked to the insane expansion of Korean network, decided it needed a legal tutorship for the scene to grow.
The very first step was to reduce the tax rate on the player's earnings, from 27% to 3%. To do this, culture office of the minister introduced pro gaming licenses. That was around when Elky got 2nd in WCG. Back then they would give a license to any gamer successfully ranking top 3 of any tournament.
That was the first step.
At the same time, OGN mainly, was trying to figure out a TV league format, that would draw sponsors to invest in their shows and at the same time, bring a 1v1 game, into a team game, so the sponsor sponsoring, wouldn't have to rely on a bunch of indivudals for their promotion, but rather on the image of a team or a club.
The original problem, to starcraft broadcasting was the lack of sponsorship. Even if you had one company sponsoring a league event, even with the good tv ratings, it wasn't enough money to make it grow.
Pro gaming actors back then, had to find a way to bring in more money to exist.
Basically, pro teams were lacking money, and so were the leagues to run.
The solution they came up with, was to involve in the business bigger companies, such as KT, Samsung and especially SK TELECOM, that basically shitted all over esports until they came to sponsor a team. I know that very well, because I got to talk with them back then about making a pro team, through the N.E.T. pc room manager and accountant, that were close to the CEOS of SK telecom (Yes hehe).
Also, while I was searching for a sponsor for Smuft and Elky in Korea, I got to meet KTF officials that were planing maybe to make a pro team, rather than sponsor only a few individuals, and with samsung khan as well, that was back then, only a gaming club not providing any form of salary to its players.
( They wanted Smuft and we met them, but they didn't have any cash to offer. Otherwise smuft wouldve joined Samsung Khan).
KTF was very interested in getting Elky, but they werent offering enough money for elky to live in Korea. We had to decline the offer.
So at that time, most of big sponsor companies you're familiar with now, were extreemly reluctant to invest any money into esports, let alone build a whole team with full accomodation and staff. All this came very very late.
So, the solution that OGN came up with was this :
Since the ratings were actually good, but the format couldn't involve all these big companies at the same time for a fair commercial exposure (ie only one sponsor for one league), they took the league format GAMEQ had created (that I played in) wich was the ancestor of the pro league and said to these big national companies that didnt want to get involved :
"We make a league that runs daily, featuring all the players from a team, in several matches, and each team could bear the flag of one of these big companies. That way, every sponsor gets a full time advertisement any time their team participates in any given tournament, no matter who is sponsoring the event. However for this to be possible, these sponsors not only would pay a team of players, but also AN ENTRY FEE to the tv station networks to participate in the proleague."
Yes, proleague entrance isn't free for the teams, and actually exteemly expensive. (Well it was back then, I think the numbers were around 50k usd for one season entrance maybe its more now, or less dunno).
That was the deal, and it worked out pretty well.
Now back to gov culture office and how they decided to handle esports.
Problem was that to handle esports organisation on a new business scale, like this one, you need ressources and also one of these big companies, to make the first step towards this.
If I remember correctly, Samsung was the first to finance KESPA and actually created the office from the already existing "officials" running touranements here and there (basically people in charge of paying the players when they won their prizes i think).
However, as the teams started to exist and their finances got bigger, and as the proleague started to work out very well, the entity that was first ran by Samsung itself, transformed to involve to its board other sponsorship, so that SKT, KTF or anyone else in the business could run the things along and have their word to say.
Kespa was formed this way.
It was first a decision from the korean governement to give a legal frame to the pro gaming activity, and later on, the major sponsors of esports (samsung, Kt, skt etc etc) joined in to run the office and make it an established entity.
Basically, what you all fail to understand is that OGN and MBC and Kespa aren't running these leagues by their own selves. It's an organisation that involves every single actor in this business.
When Kespa is dealing with Blizzard, its SK telecom, KT F, Samsung, CJ etc they are dealing with, and so the players.
What you have to keep in mind is that without the pro team's sponsors, their wouldn't even be leagues ! Because they're the first to pay for them to happen !
Pro teams finance leagues you watch partially, and their companies get advertisement in return. This is very different from beeing the main sponsor of a gaming event.
That means if Blizzard says OGN and MBC can't air any SC related content, they're not telling this to OGN or MBC, but to all these very big companies, much much bigger than blizzard, that they don't have the right to market and do their own advertisement, in their own country, on their almost "own" cable channels.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT NOW ? S korea is a little bit bigger than the state of indiana. I don't really see an issue with major latency issues. There have been plenty of tournaments when they power has gone out and that cause delays, etc. Maybe Blizzard should add a power grid in battlenet when they patch in the LAN. &_& Power outages are rare events. If there are no Blizzard datacenters near the recording studios, the latency will not go away. You do know that asia battlenet is a server in korea, right?
Yeah, but LAN latency will always be better than BNET, and more reliable as well. The farther the server location is physically from the recording studio, the higher the latency.
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On May 29 2010 03:25 Adila wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 03:03 buhhy wrote:
KeSPA companies don't need progaming, progaming needs KeSPA.
Pro-gaming does not need KeSPA. They need sponsors. While KeSPA does provide sponsors, it doesn't mean that no new ones will come in or current ones will break from the pack and continue sponsorships if KeSPA goes away. Just like if the NBA, NFL, MLB all dissolved tomorrow, new organizations will come in and take their place. Will there be growing pains? Yes. If the sport is compelling enough though, it will survive.
Yes, but gaming isn't compelling enough. Most games don't even last a few years while true sports last for centuries. With KeSPA gone, it'll take much longer for similar infrastructure to build up than for the actual lifetime of the game.
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On May 29 2010 03:51 buhhy wrote:
Yeah, but LAN latency will always be better than BNET, and more reliable as well. The farther the server location is physically from the recording studio, the higher the latency.
I guess it is a good thing that Blizzard has a "Certified LAN" system in place for this very situation, it simply isn't available for general consumer use.
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EPT
